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Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20

Here's something that happened one week ago, a perfect (and sad) example of what happens when you only have one set of stairs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire > The victims gasped for air and had difficulties escaping, as there was only one escape route, with the emergency stairs and elevators being located outside the clinic. > Experts were surprised by the fire's high death toll. The authorities are investigating how victims became trapped and the floor filled up with smoke so quickly. > Minister for Internal Affairs and Communications Yasushi Kaneko ordered the inspection of some 30,000 buildings in Japan that have three or more floors, but only a single stairwell.

syshum 5y ago
Yea, every fire code I know how requires a minimum of 2 escape route for occupancy
- roywiggins 5y ago
  You can satisfy that with a fire escape in a lot of cases, I would have thought?
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    In practice, usually fire escapes are more harm than help. A fair amount of disasters happened where in the event of an actual fire, the fire escape had been poorly maintained and became overloaded so that they fell to the ground during the evacuation.
- Sharlin 5y ago
  As the article states, there are lots of Western countries (including mine) that do not require a second stairwell for midrise apartment buildings. It's not a theoretical question. In a properly compartmentalized apartment building, you should not exit your apartment unless it's the one that's on fire.
  - syshum 5y ago
    Well I am never convinced by an argument of "well others do it", that is never a valid justification IMO. The US has always done things different than the EU, and IMO that is a good thing. As to fire, that is but one of many other safety concerns, I personally will never live in a place that only has 1 escape vector, even if fire concerns were mitigated
    - Sharlin 5y ago
      Not perusing available evidence when making policy decisions like this is simply bad decisionmaking. “Doing things our way” just out of principle is just as silly as blindly aping others. It’s possible to (fallaciously) argue against anything by saying “but we’re special so doesn’t apply to us” and I’ve seen too many bad decisions made due to what is essentially a case of the NIH syndrome.
Abroszka 5y ago
Not really. The wikipage says some pretty disturbing things under the investigation section. No amount of staircases would have helped.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I don't think that's true; the article and the sources it cited specifically cite having only one escape route as a contributing factor.
stickfigure 5y ago
A security camera in the building showed that Tanimoto tossed a bag, probably containing petrol, at the emergency exit. Tape is also believed to have been used to impede the use of the door. It is believed this was done so that clinic occupants would have a hard time evacuating. Investigators also found evidence of additional traps in the building.[21][22] The suspect was found to possess a knife, and blocked a person who tried to run back towards the elevator. The victims, with the path to the exits blocked by fire, went into inner windowless rooms in the back of the clinic where they died.[16] When you have someone deliberately setting fires and blocking the escape routes with a knife, you have bigger problems than just one stairwell.
- vernie 5y ago
  Similar thing happened at Kyoto Animation in 2019 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Animation_arson_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Animation_arson_attack)
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Sure, but you could say that about any fire where a bunch of people died. There are always "bigger problems" or else there wouldn't be a fire.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    The point is, since it was deliberate, the person could almost as easily blocked both stairs. It's not comparable to an accidental fire that potentially impress a single staircase
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      I disagree that they could have done this just as easily. One person can only guard one way.
      - bluefirebrand 5y ago
        Yeah but one person who is setting fires could torch a stairwell, effectively blocking it without being there.
istinetz 5y ago
Everyone in the comments is raising the (valid) fire safety argument; however, I'd like to point out that this is a non-obvious trade-off. How many house fires are there? How many of them are in tall buildings? How many of them would block just one stair, and not two? Yes, there is a probability that an extra stair will save your life; however, this is a very tiny probability, against a certainty of extra living space, for everyone, every day.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  You are free to ignore fire safety rules in your own private house, built far away from everyone else's private homes (and anything flammable). History shows that fire can be disasterous.
- petee 5y ago
  The problem is that you can't track how many disasters were prevented by having two means of egress, so I cant imagine there are real statistics on that I hate the space argument because its a money argument, not a real quality of life issue - make the building 1 floor taller, or don't cram your residents just because you wanted to milk 4 apts instead of 3 on a floor.
  - armada651 5y ago
    > The problem is that you can't track how many disasters were prevented by having two means of egress, so I cant imagine there are real statistics on that Why wouldn't you be able to compare statistics from the US to any other country that doesn't have that rule?
    - petee 5y ago
      There are alot of factors: building codes, materials, age, likely ignition sources . Probably not impossible, but difficult to find a meaningful way to compare. I'm also guessing that fire reporting doesn't include the level of detail you would need. For example, a fire in which firefighters were able to tackle from two sides would be quickly extinguished, where as the same fire with 1-sided access might have become a disaster. But thats a what-if, only learned the hard way.
stavros 5y ago
> In 2011, Tanimoto stabbed his own son in the head in an apparent forced suicide. That's the weirdest euphemism for murder I've ever seen.
- mlyle 5y ago
  > That's the weirdest euphemism for murder I've ever seen. I don't believe he killed his son, and I believe the wording in the articles is intended to indicate that he tried to force his son to kill himself and ended up stabbing him in the head.
rwmj 5y ago
But also in Japan they allow for rescue/escape through special windows which can be broken in an emergency (the ubiquitous red triangles you see on all tall buildings), so in effect there are many escape routes.
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  Yeah--what matters is two means of egress. It doesn't matter what form they take. We live in a two-story house, the stairs are the only normal means of escape. But the building code requires bedrooms to have windows sufficient for a firefighter in full gear to go through and there's an emergency ladder stored next to the most accessible window in the one upstairs room actually used for sleeping.
simonebrunozzi 5y ago
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire Good point. But to be fair, you should consider the injuries and deaths caused by elderly falling off stairs - 1M injuries, 12,000 deaths in the US alone. [0] Compared that with 3,700 deaths and 16,600 injuries for ALL fires, not just fires in buildings [1]. My view would be that stairs KILL, and that new buildings should avoid stairs (at least, within a single unit) at all costs. We should also rethink how we design stairs and stair safety, and adjust building codes accordingly. Of course, this will most likely never happen. [0]: https://www.attorneywdkickham.com/stairway-staircase-accidents.html#:~:text=Over%201%20Million%20injuries%20occur,are%2012%2C000%20stairway%20accident%20deaths https://www.attorneywdkickham.com/stairway-staircase-acciden.... [1]: https://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/ https://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/
- montroser 5y ago
  It would be far-fetched to think that having a second staircase for egress would result in additional deaths. More staircases does not cause more traversals of staircases.
  - lumost 5y ago
    Secondary staircases are often steeper to save money.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Turning stairs into ramps doesn't change anything about this. The point isn't the stairs, it's the exits. We just haven't figured out how to have entrances and exits in multi-story buildings that don't involve stairs or elevators. I don't think chutes and ladders would be safer for the elderly.
- chongli 5y ago
  Stairs can be made a lot safer for elderly people. One way is to put in landings every 3-4 stairs and change the direction 90 degrees each time. This way if you fall it’s not very far. You can also have very firm, easy to grasp handrails and thick padded carpet on the stairs and landings to soften them. Finally, for very frail elderly people you can install a chair lift so they can ride up and down instead of climbing the stairs.

syshum 5y ago

Yea, every fire code I know how requires a minimum of 2 escape route for occupancy

roywiggins 5y ago
You can satisfy that with a fire escape in a lot of cases, I would have thought?
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  In practice, usually fire escapes are more harm than help. A fair amount of disasters happened where in the event of an actual fire, the fire escape had been poorly maintained and became overloaded so that they fell to the ground during the evacuation.
Sharlin 5y ago
As the article states, there are lots of Western countries (including mine) that do not require a second stairwell for midrise apartment buildings. It's not a theoretical question. In a properly compartmentalized apartment building, you should not exit your apartment unless it's the one that's on fire.
- syshum 5y ago
  Well I am never convinced by an argument of "well others do it", that is never a valid justification IMO. The US has always done things different than the EU, and IMO that is a good thing. As to fire, that is but one of many other safety concerns, I personally will never live in a place that only has 1 escape vector, even if fire concerns were mitigated
  - Sharlin 5y ago
    Not perusing available evidence when making policy decisions like this is simply bad decisionmaking. “Doing things our way” just out of principle is just as silly as blindly aping others. It’s possible to (fallaciously) argue against anything by saying “but we’re special so doesn’t apply to us” and I’ve seen too many bad decisions made due to what is essentially a case of the NIH syndrome.

Abroszka 5y ago

Not really. The wikipage says some pretty disturbing things under the investigation section. No amount of staircases would have helped.

emodendroket 5y ago
I don't think that's true; the article and the sources it cited specifically cite having only one escape route as a contributing factor.

stickfigure 5y ago

A security camera in the building showed that Tanimoto tossed a bag, probably containing petrol, at the emergency exit. Tape is also believed to have been used to impede the use of the door. It is believed this was done so that clinic occupants would have a hard time evacuating. Investigators also found evidence of additional traps in the building.[21][22] The suspect was found to possess a knife, and blocked a person who tried to run back towards the elevator. The victims, with the path to the exits blocked by fire, went into inner windowless rooms in the back of the clinic where they died.[16] When you have someone deliberately setting fires and blocking the escape routes with a knife, you have bigger problems than just one stairwell.

vernie 5y ago
Similar thing happened at Kyoto Animation in 2019 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Animation_arson_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Animation_arson_attack)
emodendroket 5y ago
Sure, but you could say that about any fire where a bunch of people died. There are always "bigger problems" or else there wouldn't be a fire.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  The point is, since it was deliberate, the person could almost as easily blocked both stairs. It's not comparable to an accidental fire that potentially impress a single staircase
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I disagree that they could have done this just as easily. One person can only guard one way.
    - bluefirebrand 5y ago
      Yeah but one person who is setting fires could torch a stairwell, effectively blocking it without being there.

istinetz 5y ago

Everyone in the comments is raising the (valid) fire safety argument; however, I'd like to point out that this is a non-obvious trade-off. How many house fires are there? How many of them are in tall buildings? How many of them would block just one stair, and not two? Yes, there is a probability that an extra stair will save your life; however, this is a very tiny probability, against a certainty of extra living space, for everyone, every day.

wolverine876 5y ago
You are free to ignore fire safety rules in your own private house, built far away from everyone else's private homes (and anything flammable). History shows that fire can be disasterous.
petee 5y ago
The problem is that you can't track how many disasters were prevented by having two means of egress, so I cant imagine there are real statistics on that I hate the space argument because its a money argument, not a real quality of life issue - make the building 1 floor taller, or don't cram your residents just because you wanted to milk 4 apts instead of 3 on a floor.
- armada651 5y ago
  > The problem is that you can't track how many disasters were prevented by having two means of egress, so I cant imagine there are real statistics on that Why wouldn't you be able to compare statistics from the US to any other country that doesn't have that rule?
  - petee 5y ago
    There are alot of factors: building codes, materials, age, likely ignition sources . Probably not impossible, but difficult to find a meaningful way to compare. I'm also guessing that fire reporting doesn't include the level of detail you would need. For example, a fire in which firefighters were able to tackle from two sides would be quickly extinguished, where as the same fire with 1-sided access might have become a disaster. But thats a what-if, only learned the hard way.

stavros 5y ago

> In 2011, Tanimoto stabbed his own son in the head in an apparent forced suicide. That's the weirdest euphemism for murder I've ever seen.

mlyle 5y ago
> That's the weirdest euphemism for murder I've ever seen. I don't believe he killed his son, and I believe the wording in the articles is intended to indicate that he tried to force his son to kill himself and ended up stabbing him in the head.

rwmj 5y ago

But also in Japan they allow for rescue/escape through special windows which can be broken in an emergency (the ubiquitous red triangles you see on all tall buildings), so in effect there are many escape routes.

LorenPechtel 5y ago
Yeah--what matters is two means of egress. It doesn't matter what form they take. We live in a two-story house, the stairs are the only normal means of escape. But the building code requires bedrooms to have windows sufficient for a firefighter in full gear to go through and there's an emergency ladder stored next to the most accessible window in the one upstairs room actually used for sleeping.

simonebrunozzi 5y ago

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Osaka_building_fire Good point. But to be fair, you should consider the injuries and deaths caused by elderly falling off stairs - 1M injuries, 12,000 deaths in the US alone. [0] Compared that with 3,700 deaths and 16,600 injuries for ALL fires, not just fires in buildings [1]. My view would be that stairs KILL, and that new buildings should avoid stairs (at least, within a single unit) at all costs. We should also rethink how we design stairs and stair safety, and adjust building codes accordingly. Of course, this will most likely never happen. [0]: https://www.attorneywdkickham.com/stairway-staircase-accidents.html#:~:text=Over%201%20Million%20injuries%20occur,are%2012%2C000%20stairway%20accident%20deaths https://www.attorneywdkickham.com/stairway-staircase-acciden.... [1]: https://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/ https://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/

montroser 5y ago
It would be far-fetched to think that having a second staircase for egress would result in additional deaths. More staircases does not cause more traversals of staircases.
- lumost 5y ago
  Secondary staircases are often steeper to save money.
pessimizer 5y ago
Turning stairs into ramps doesn't change anything about this. The point isn't the stairs, it's the exits. We just haven't figured out how to have entrances and exits in multi-story buildings that don't involve stairs or elevators. I don't think chutes and ladders would be safer for the elderly.
chongli 5y ago
Stairs can be made a lot safer for elderly people. One way is to put in landings every 3-4 stairs and change the direction 90 degrees each time. This way if you fall it’s not very far. You can also have very firm, easy to grasp handrails and thick padded carpet on the stairs and landings to soften them. Finally, for very frail elderly people you can install a chair lift so they can ride up and down instead of climbing the stairs.