7 ms·

Dumb question here. Why is this necessary? Does Jetbrains not include their latest Jetbrain Runtime release in their IDE builds? Or maybe Jetbrains Runtime rel

by kelp 5y ago

Dumb question here. Why is this necessary? Does Jetbrains not include their latest Jetbrain Runtime release in their IDE builds? Or maybe Jetbrains Runtime releases run a bit ahead of what gets bundled in with the various Jetbrains IDEs?

aPoCoMiLogin 5y ago
Jetbrains includes JBR11 by default.
- jillesvangurp 5y ago
  For now, Java 17 has only been out for a few months. They'll likely switch with their next major release. 17 and 11 were both LTS releases. I've used Intellij for quite some time and there has always been quite a bit of magical thinking surrounding the performance topic that stems from a poor understanding of how things work, broken assumptions about how things should work, and so on. Intellij has lots of performance baggage. And addressing this and overstating the effects of mitigations is a long standing tradition in release notes. Despite numerous supposed fixes and improvements to the IDE, compiler, etc. even in just the last year, I still find myself waiting for it to do whatever for minutes on end every day. A half minute recompile after a 1 character code change. Rendering, garbage collection, and other things people like to point at are not even close to being a root cause for this. The real cause is that it simply does a lot of work and moves around a lot of data. The edge cases where that just requires noticeably slow re-computation happen a lot and when they do, things get slow.
bmc7505 5y ago
It is recommended to use the currently bundled JBR version (JDK 11). Although later versions are available for testing, they are less stable as the author of this blog post mentions at the end.
- gjvc 5y ago
  JetBrains' attitude to this has been horrendous. Try running their products on a more recent JVM. They are actually usable and don't leave you feeling like you've been thinking in molasses. Ironic for a company called "jet" brains. They (JetBrains) have been actively fucking a portion of their (one would think, technically savvy) customers by not giving them the most responsive system they can to run, then acting all paternalistic and gaslighty by saying "oh we don't recommend you use anything other than the one we ship." [1] when people complain. Listen, JetBrains: I have wasted enough time (while my thoughts race ahead trying to work on my projects) sat on my phatass 64Gb NVMe-equipped Xeon, nvidia (native driver) Debian workstation waiting for pycharm et al to mooch along like at a stately pace redrawing the screen like it's a 1994 486 with an HDD. In the end my thoughts stopped racing and I began to think, yeah, well, I just gotta endure it... and then asking myself if I'm alone in this particular slow-motion hell-hole or is the world really like this?! Once I had got to the bottom of it (notes here https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-run-faster/ https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r...) I _instantly_ began to regain the feeling of fluidity of thought in my work. It was the biggest single productivity gain I've made in the past year, and I have had zero stability problems. Some debugging features are not available, but I haven't missed them. At this point JetBrains would do well to take a leaf out of Apple's playbook from 2009 when they shipped the Snow Leopard release (Yes I am one of those that thinks that Snow Leopard was the best release of Mac OS X...) which concentrated solely on quality and speed, and no new features. [2] Thank you for your attention. Merry Christmas ;-) [1] a fact which gets parroted around various fora without any understanding of the problem because "it works on their computer" It seems that much of the improvements are for the benefit of MacOS X users, while the policy of sticking with a version 11 JDK is to the detriment of users on other platforms. [2] quality and speed are features, too!
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Not sure what your problem with them is. JetBrains is simply trying to provide a stable development platform. And since it took me about about a minute to switch to JDK17 it's not like they are going out of their way to make it difficult.
    - 5y ago
chrisseaton 5y ago
JetBrains' fork is not regularly merged, and is somewhat old at the moment.
gjvc 5y ago
In any other product, this would be a red flag. What is special about it? What unstable APIs have they used? If they've done that, what other things have they done? Should every vendor ship their own version of the JVM?
- howdydoo 5y ago
  I mean sure, in an ideal world one Java should work for everything. In practice, there are too many things that can go wrong with untested combinations. For better or worse, the world is moving towards bundled dependencies (Snap, Flatpak, Docker, etc). On my system, I see at least DBeaver and Arduino that ship their own JVM. I don't think it's a red flag.
  - gjvc 5y ago
    Why do they do that in each case? Why do they need a specific version such that it it unreasonable for the regular user to have already in place?
    - ezfe 5y ago
      If we look at something like Minecraft - it now bundles Java. This lets them upgrade java versions without bothering every 12 year old to figure out how to do that.
      - gjvc 5y ago
        Good for them, but Minecraft is neither DBeaver nor Arduino.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Because as an industry we have collectively failed - both in dependency management and in version control. There are unreliable, and they are incomprehensible to an average user, no matter which operating system you use.
      - 5y ago

by kelp 5y ago

aPoCoMiLogin 5y ago

Jetbrains includes JBR11 by default.

jillesvangurp 5y ago
For now, Java 17 has only been out for a few months. They'll likely switch with their next major release. 17 and 11 were both LTS releases. I've used Intellij for quite some time and there has always been quite a bit of magical thinking surrounding the performance topic that stems from a poor understanding of how things work, broken assumptions about how things should work, and so on. Intellij has lots of performance baggage. And addressing this and overstating the effects of mitigations is a long standing tradition in release notes. Despite numerous supposed fixes and improvements to the IDE, compiler, etc. even in just the last year, I still find myself waiting for it to do whatever for minutes on end every day. A half minute recompile after a 1 character code change. Rendering, garbage collection, and other things people like to point at are not even close to being a root cause for this. The real cause is that it simply does a lot of work and moves around a lot of data. The edge cases where that just requires noticeably slow re-computation happen a lot and when they do, things get slow.

bmc7505 5y ago

It is recommended to use the currently bundled JBR version (JDK 11). Although later versions are available for testing, they are less stable as the author of this blog post mentions at the end.

gjvc 5y ago
JetBrains' attitude to this has been horrendous. Try running their products on a more recent JVM. They are actually usable and don't leave you feeling like you've been thinking in molasses. Ironic for a company called "jet" brains. They (JetBrains) have been actively fucking a portion of their (one would think, technically savvy) customers by not giving them the most responsive system they can to run, then acting all paternalistic and gaslighty by saying "oh we don't recommend you use anything other than the one we ship." [1] when people complain. Listen, JetBrains: I have wasted enough time (while my thoughts race ahead trying to work on my projects) sat on my phatass 64Gb NVMe-equipped Xeon, nvidia (native driver) Debian workstation waiting for pycharm et al to mooch along like at a stately pace redrawing the screen like it's a 1994 486 with an HDD. In the end my thoughts stopped racing and I began to think, yeah, well, I just gotta endure it... and then asking myself if I'm alone in this particular slow-motion hell-hole or is the world really like this?! Once I had got to the bottom of it (notes here https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-run-faster/ https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r...) I _instantly_ began to regain the feeling of fluidity of thought in my work. It was the biggest single productivity gain I've made in the past year, and I have had zero stability problems. Some debugging features are not available, but I haven't missed them. At this point JetBrains would do well to take a leaf out of Apple's playbook from 2009 when they shipped the Snow Leopard release (Yes I am one of those that thinks that Snow Leopard was the best release of Mac OS X...) which concentrated solely on quality and speed, and no new features. [2] Thank you for your attention. Merry Christmas ;-) [1] a fact which gets parroted around various fora without any understanding of the problem because "it works on their computer" It seems that much of the improvements are for the benefit of MacOS X users, while the policy of sticking with a version 11 JDK is to the detriment of users on other platforms. [2] quality and speed are features, too!
- threeseed 5y ago
  Not sure what your problem with them is. JetBrains is simply trying to provide a stable development platform. And since it took me about about a minute to switch to JDK17 it's not like they are going out of their way to make it difficult.
  - 5y ago

chrisseaton 5y ago

JetBrains' fork is not regularly merged, and is somewhat old at the moment.

gjvc 5y ago

In any other product, this would be a red flag. What is special about it? What unstable APIs have they used? If they've done that, what other things have they done? Should every vendor ship their own version of the JVM?

howdydoo 5y ago
I mean sure, in an ideal world one Java should work for everything. In practice, there are too many things that can go wrong with untested combinations. For better or worse, the world is moving towards bundled dependencies (Snap, Flatpak, Docker, etc). On my system, I see at least DBeaver and Arduino that ship their own JVM. I don't think it's a red flag.
- gjvc 5y ago
  Why do they do that in each case? Why do they need a specific version such that it it unreasonable for the regular user to have already in place?
  - ezfe 5y ago
    If we look at something like Minecraft - it now bundles Java. This lets them upgrade java versions without bothering every 12 year old to figure out how to do that.
    - gjvc 5y ago
      Good for them, but Minecraft is neither DBeaver nor Arduino.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Because as an industry we have collectively failed - both in dependency management and in version control. There are unreliable, and they are incomprehensible to an average user, no matter which operating system you use.
    - 5y ago