11 ms·

New record levels of private aviation flights

66 points by lxm 5y ago

Stevvo 5y ago
Same story in every expensive hobby; people saved during the pandemic and are now spending on those hobbies.
- gregoriol 5y ago
  It's most likely not on savings that people fly on private flights though
- ghaff 5y ago
  The article isn't super-clear but it at least casts this as being about things like NetJets as opposed to people taking up flying as a hobby. But it's probably a bit of both.
- ohazi 5y ago
  These are private jet flights, not hobby Cessna flights.
- hmmmcurious1 5y ago
  Yup I even bought an airbus for my family with my stimulus bucks
  - carabiner 5y ago
    I received $1,500 in panny bux due to my low income. After that, I was finally able to afford my $1.8m house in Seattle.
dtrain2017 5y ago
I think there's a tax scheme for part-time ownership of a jet. I met a guy on a regular flight who was CMO of a private jet startup. They flew these very slick Honda jets. But, anyways, he basically pitched me the business and there's some kind of capital gains tax benefit to the jet-share concept.
fshee 5y ago
I would expect in the short term used GA aircraft prices will go up. That's certainly what's been happening. The Cessna 150 I began private pilot training in has sold twice since I've met it. Gaining almost $10,000 in the process. Long term I hope we'll see more production of GA aircraft and used prices will go down.
GDC7 5y ago
cft 5y ago
With masks, COVID measures commercial travel is becoming unbearable, even in the first class.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Really? I mean I don't like wearing a mask on a long plane flight but lots of people have to do this at their jobs all day so saying it makes commercial travel "unbearable" seems like quite a stretch.
  - chaxor 5y ago
    Wearing a mask is definitely not the uncomfortable part of flying. It's the huge number of unhygienic people crammed into a tiny space, rubbing up against everything and not wearing proper equipment that makes everything extremely uncomfortable. But the ending sentiment is the same.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      Everyone certainly needs to make their own call. Obviously, there are a great many people attending large indoor events with a lot less in the way of air circulation and filtration systems than a jet airliner has.
      - spijdar 5y ago
        Air travel is just kind of gross, at least in recent years, even before COVID. I usually end up mildly sick with a nondescript "cold" after intercontinental flights, although I fly in economy, where the "lots of gross people packed into a tiny space" factor goes way up...
        Scoundreller 5y ago
        Don’t forget about the pre-flight and post-flight “security” and customs/immigration theatre lines where you get mixed in with people coming from and going to anywhere and everywhere. No chance of catching anything exotic there!
zipiridu 5y ago
Given that a huge transfer of wealth to the rich happened over the last two years, I expect businesses that cater to them to boom.
- littlestymaar 5y ago
  you could replace “the last two years” by “the last fourty years” really. The process is just accerating a bit every year (as expected because of the compound interests).
  - zipiridu 5y ago
    Yes, compounding interests in the people in power to keep propping up the markets.
    - littlestymaar 5y ago
      I mean the enormous tax cuts on the wealthy since the Reagan era, tax savings which end up invested and paying dividends later on. Focusing on the Fed's policy is a mistake (and actually the one reason why the Fed had to inject so much money to get a stimulus comes from the fact that the richest people control much more wealth than they should/used to, and this is caused by the enormous fiscal gifts the wealthy have been given in the past 40 years).
- kerneloftruth 5y ago
  That's only one key variable -- look also at what commercial flying has become (horrible): unruly passengers, mask mandates, flight attendants more authoritative (and understandably defensive) -- not to mention that people basically wear pajamas and sweat pants when they travel anymore. I'm glad to see the new options becoming available. They might be much more expensive, but they'll be worth it to many (including myself).
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    I gotta ask, what’s the problem with wearing comfortable clothes on an airplane? The idea of wearing a suit or even business casual on a commercial flight seems laughable to me.
human 5y ago
In Canada you are not allowed on a commercial flight if you are not double-vaxxed. Not surprised to see a rise in people seeking alternatives.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  Even if you're not forced to, it's not the worst idea I'm moving across the country and plan to take a seat on a private charter because of Omnicron: much less time spent in "security" face to back with people, more room between passengers once you're on. I suspect plenty of people who would previously saw any sort of private flight as a completely untenable expense are slowly warming up to the idea for similar reasons
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Problem is for most of us it is too expensive. High buy in for a jet share, then $6000 for a 8 passenger plane (I just flew my family of 5 for $2000 and that was last minute for a funeral)
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not able to make a habit of private aviation either I think it's just the volume before was probably pretty low since not many people can claim the hour or two saved in security and boarding is worth 5x-10x the cost of a flight... But COVID at least adds a more concrete benefit for people who would never have considered it at all, and might at least entertain the idea for specific occasions. With how small private aviation is compared to commercial it wouldn't take many people making that consideration to have a large effect
londons_explore 5y ago
So there are probably record levels of lead being emitted from planes too, since a lot of private aviation flights are in propeller planes that use leaded fuel. Logically therefore... wait... what was I talking about again? carry on...
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Not nearly all propeller planes burn leaded avgas. Turboprops (Saab 340s, Dash-8, ATR, PC-12, TBM-700+, etc; basically almost everything over around 8 pax seats) burn Jet-A, same as turbojets/turbofans. It's only the very small piston engine airplanes (Cape Air 421s and smaller) that likely burn leaded fuel. Most anything that will be flown by the 135/91K operators in the article will be burning Jet-A.
  - FL410 5y ago
    Yep, and G100UL (unleaded) is coming real soon, so the lead argument becomes moot. Not that it was ever really a good one.
speedyapoc 5y ago
With commercial air travel being so unreliable, this makes sense. I've travelled quite a bit over the past few months and had to deal with an elevated level of delays, cancellations, etc. For those that need to be at a certain place at a certain time, and can afford it, private air travel makes sense. Private also has its benefits. I remember last year that commercial air travellers into Canada were being put in quarantine hotels whereas private air travellers were not subjected to such measures.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Canada lets US-origin private flights land at a lot of random airports where the customs process is pretty much “call us before you arrive and we’ll send someone over only if we feel like it”. (Yes, you do have to be pre-approved for this, but if your record is clean, it’s a formality). They even have a corporate program that lets you bring in a handful of unscreened non-members. All for $40 for 5 years. My driver’s license renewal costs more than double that. https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/prog/canpass/menu-eng.html https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/prog/canpass/menu-eng.html
- bronco21016 5y ago
  > With commercial air travel being so unreliable, this makes sense. That seems a stretch. Commercial air travel in the US is unbelievably reliable, and furthermore, safe. I’m not sure you can measure reliability in private aviation as the schedule is entirely ad hoc but the airlines are nearly always >98% completion with a few consistently >99.5%. Factor in safety and it’s not even comparable. There has been one death on a commercial airline due to an incident related to operation of the aircraft since 2008 (the Southwest aircraft that had a RUD of the engine leading to a woman being sucked from the window). Compare that with private aviation which still has a few accidents a year at a minimum despite drastically fewer operations. While I wouldn’t argue private flying is something to be avoided, statistically speaking, it would appear that travel aboard a US airline is the safest and likely among the most reliable means of traveling in the US.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    > There has been one death on a commercial airline due to an incident related to operation of the aircraft since 2008 That's close, but not precisely correct. In addition to SWA 1380, there was one death on PenAir 3296 in 2019 and 50 fatalities on Colgan Air 3407 in Feb 2009. All of those were US-operated Part 121 flights. (There were also many non-US commercial airline fatalities in that period, but I'll give you that in context you were referring only to flights operated by US airlines above.)
jmugan 5y ago
I'm amazed that people can just fly over everyone and make incredible amounts of noise while those on the ground are trying to enjoy peace and quiet.
- DamnYuppie 5y ago
  I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or you really believe that. I could just as easily state that I am amazed that people can drive around with their sound systems blaring and make incredible amounts of noise while those around them are trying to enjoy peace and quiet. You are more likely to encounter a loud vehicle than a General Aviation aircraft unless you live very close to an airport.
  - jmugan 5y ago
    I'm serious. Of course, we have to get around, so these things need to be balanced. Commercial airliners are less bad because they move more people, and some of those people are going to places to do productive work. But a private plane flying low over when you are on a nature hike is like a form of theft. You are taking something without compensation.
    - JasonFruit 5y ago
      So why is it a form of theft to make noise while you are trying to enjoy a forest, but not theft for pilots to be prevented from enjoying the sky?
      - johnisgood 5y ago
        This does not make sense because enjoying a forest does not cause noise that would prevent the pilots from enjoying the sky.
      - jmugan 5y ago
        It would also be theft if you were making huge unnecessary noise playing music or whatnot. It's all about the amount of noise and how far it travels.
bigodbiel 5y ago
How else to bypass travel bans?
JCM9 5y ago
Queue the people that buy a house next to an airport and then complain about the airplanes. They will be “outraged” at the “onslaught” of planes flying overhead and demand reform.
- pixl97 5y ago
  Really with small planes it's going to be the number falling out of the sky. Juan Brown on the Blancoliro channel on YT goes over this pretty commonly when talking about small aircraft regulations.
Overtonwindow 5y ago
Public flying is awful. Truly awful.
jcrawfordor 5y ago
I'd be really curious what portion of this is part 135 vs part 91, and in general commercial charter vs. small-time commercial operations (survey, instruction, etc) and private (in the FAA sense of non-commercial). It seems surprising to me that private (non-commercial) aviation has picked up considering the high and increasing costs of getting into it, but then the fact that used prices for piston singles seem to be going up would tend to suggest that. I'm a relatively newly minted private pilot, having gotten my certificate shortly after the start of the pandemic, and I've met a couple of other people in a similar situation. I think the pandemic opened up a lot of free time and flight instruction was still operating throughout. But of course many of us are also stymied right now by there being "nowhere to go" in that aircraft prices are high and increasing and GA infrastructure is generally in a bad state in much of the country (no available private hangars in my urban area, community/FBO hangars often on waitlists, prices very high for everything). The extremely high price of new aircraft designs is very frustrating as well, as basically everyone without around a half a million to spend (or more realistically to finance) is stuck with a '60s 100LL design and boxed out of the newer diesel options, as well as safety features like AoA indication (although there remains some debate about how much AoA instruments actually improve safety) and airframe parachutes (which seem to just be a clear benefit with vanishingly few negative outcomes). Commercial charter operators are of course able to finance very expensive aircraft, but are nonetheless hit by the same impact - per-hour charter prices are extremely high, and a huge portion of that is amortizing how much even used jet aircraft cost. Those prices are going up, not down, a trend which seems to be permanent.
drewg123 5y ago
The folks who are in a financial position to afford private flights are the same folks to fly first class and use airline lounges. Both of them have gotten far, far worse since the start of the pandemic. Food and beverage options in first have been trimmed way back. I've been on first class flights with nothing but a pre-packaged ziplock bag with a bottle of water and bag of goldfish crackers offered in 1st. Contrast this to the pre-pandemic standard of pre-takeoff cocktails, full snack baskets, etc. Service is starting to come back, but I have not seen ground service (pre-flight drinks) since before the pandemic. A recent cross country flight offered nothing but a boxed sandwich in 1st, compared to full, hot meals pre-pandemic. Airline lounges have also had food and beverage options trimmed way back. Delta lounges had nothing but pre-packaged snacks for roughly a year. The lounges are now over-crowed with people that have finally earned status via credit card spend and extended status rules. All in all, flying is quite a bit worse for the first class traveler and I can understand their motivations.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Nobody is going to feel bad for people flying first class and relaxing in airline lounges, but you're spot on explaining how those experiences have been diminished since Covid began. You used to be able to pick your hot meal the day before your flight, but now because I prefer to sit towards the back of first class I just have to hope that my preferred cold boxed sandwich is available by the time the flight attendant gets to me to ask what I want. And it's not like they're both good choices (to me, at least) with one being a decently nice sandwich with meat or fish, and the other being a vegetarian meal with fruits and nuts. I realize how petty that all must sound to someone who doesn't fly first class, but it's legitimately annoying.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Many carriers used to take orders in FEBO order (from Front on Even flight numbers, from the Back on Odd flight numbers). Then some switched to an East-West or North-South order to determine front vs back for those who didn’t pre-select 24 hours ahead.
SebastianKumor 5y ago
I am just about to do my PPL license next year. Mainly just for fun tho. No intention to replace commercial flying with this.
TomSwirly 5y ago
It simply astonishes me that six hours into this discussion, the tremendous carbon dioxide output of flying a few people in a private plane isn't mentioned even one time. By this time I'm just certain we'll never do anything about the climate catastrophe. At least I don't have kids. How do you the reader expect to explain it to your kids?

66 points by lxm 5y ago

Stevvo 5y ago

Same story in every expensive hobby; people saved during the pandemic and are now spending on those hobbies.

gregoriol 5y ago
It's most likely not on savings that people fly on private flights though
ghaff 5y ago
The article isn't super-clear but it at least casts this as being about things like NetJets as opposed to people taking up flying as a hobby. But it's probably a bit of both.
ohazi 5y ago
These are private jet flights, not hobby Cessna flights.
hmmmcurious1 5y ago
Yup I even bought an airbus for my family with my stimulus bucks
- carabiner 5y ago
  I received $1,500 in panny bux due to my low income. After that, I was finally able to afford my $1.8m house in Seattle.

dtrain2017 5y ago

I think there's a tax scheme for part-time ownership of a jet. I met a guy on a regular flight who was CMO of a private jet startup. They flew these very slick Honda jets. But, anyways, he basically pitched me the business and there's some kind of capital gains tax benefit to the jet-share concept.

fshee 5y ago

I would expect in the short term used GA aircraft prices will go up. That's certainly what's been happening. The Cessna 150 I began private pilot training in has sold twice since I've met it. Gaining almost $10,000 in the process. Long term I hope we'll see more production of GA aircraft and used prices will go down.

GDC7 5y ago

cft 5y ago

With masks, COVID measures commercial travel is becoming unbearable, even in the first class.

ghaff 5y ago
Really? I mean I don't like wearing a mask on a long plane flight but lots of people have to do this at their jobs all day so saying it makes commercial travel "unbearable" seems like quite a stretch.
- chaxor 5y ago
  Wearing a mask is definitely not the uncomfortable part of flying. It's the huge number of unhygienic people crammed into a tiny space, rubbing up against everything and not wearing proper equipment that makes everything extremely uncomfortable. But the ending sentiment is the same.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Everyone certainly needs to make their own call. Obviously, there are a great many people attending large indoor events with a lot less in the way of air circulation and filtration systems than a jet airliner has.
    - spijdar 5y ago
      Air travel is just kind of gross, at least in recent years, even before COVID. I usually end up mildly sick with a nondescript "cold" after intercontinental flights, although I fly in economy, where the "lots of gross people packed into a tiny space" factor goes way up...
      - Scoundreller 5y ago
        Don’t forget about the pre-flight and post-flight “security” and customs/immigration theatre lines where you get mixed in with people coming from and going to anywhere and everywhere. No chance of catching anything exotic there!

zipiridu 5y ago

Given that a huge transfer of wealth to the rich happened over the last two years, I expect businesses that cater to them to boom.

littlestymaar 5y ago
you could replace “the last two years” by “the last fourty years” really. The process is just accerating a bit every year (as expected because of the compound interests).
- zipiridu 5y ago
  Yes, compounding interests in the people in power to keep propping up the markets.
  - littlestymaar 5y ago
    I mean the enormous tax cuts on the wealthy since the Reagan era, tax savings which end up invested and paying dividends later on. Focusing on the Fed's policy is a mistake (and actually the one reason why the Fed had to inject so much money to get a stimulus comes from the fact that the richest people control much more wealth than they should/used to, and this is caused by the enormous fiscal gifts the wealthy have been given in the past 40 years).
kerneloftruth 5y ago
That's only one key variable -- look also at what commercial flying has become (horrible): unruly passengers, mask mandates, flight attendants more authoritative (and understandably defensive) -- not to mention that people basically wear pajamas and sweat pants when they travel anymore. I'm glad to see the new options becoming available. They might be much more expensive, but they'll be worth it to many (including myself).
- tshaddox 5y ago
  I gotta ask, what’s the problem with wearing comfortable clothes on an airplane? The idea of wearing a suit or even business casual on a commercial flight seems laughable to me.

human 5y ago

In Canada you are not allowed on a commercial flight if you are not double-vaxxed. Not surprised to see a rise in people seeking alternatives.

BoorishBears 5y ago
Even if you're not forced to, it's not the worst idea I'm moving across the country and plan to take a seat on a private charter because of Omnicron: much less time spent in "security" face to back with people, more room between passengers once you're on. I suspect plenty of people who would previously saw any sort of private flight as a completely untenable expense are slowly warming up to the idea for similar reasons
- bluGill 5y ago
  Problem is for most of us it is too expensive. High buy in for a jet share, then $6000 for a 8 passenger plane (I just flew my family of 5 for $2000 and that was last minute for a funeral)
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not able to make a habit of private aviation either I think it's just the volume before was probably pretty low since not many people can claim the hour or two saved in security and boarding is worth 5x-10x the cost of a flight... But COVID at least adds a more concrete benefit for people who would never have considered it at all, and might at least entertain the idea for specific occasions. With how small private aviation is compared to commercial it wouldn't take many people making that consideration to have a large effect

londons_explore 5y ago

So there are probably record levels of lead being emitted from planes too, since a lot of private aviation flights are in propeller planes that use leaded fuel. Logically therefore... wait... what was I talking about again? carry on...

sokoloff 5y ago
Not nearly all propeller planes burn leaded avgas. Turboprops (Saab 340s, Dash-8, ATR, PC-12, TBM-700+, etc; basically almost everything over around 8 pax seats) burn Jet-A, same as turbojets/turbofans. It's only the very small piston engine airplanes (Cape Air 421s and smaller) that likely burn leaded fuel. Most anything that will be flown by the 135/91K operators in the article will be burning Jet-A.
- FL410 5y ago
  Yep, and G100UL (unleaded) is coming real soon, so the lead argument becomes moot. Not that it was ever really a good one.

speedyapoc 5y ago

With commercial air travel being so unreliable, this makes sense. I've travelled quite a bit over the past few months and had to deal with an elevated level of delays, cancellations, etc. For those that need to be at a certain place at a certain time, and can afford it, private air travel makes sense. Private also has its benefits. I remember last year that commercial air travellers into Canada were being put in quarantine hotels whereas private air travellers were not subjected to such measures.

Scoundreller 5y ago
Canada lets US-origin private flights land at a lot of random airports where the customs process is pretty much “call us before you arrive and we’ll send someone over only if we feel like it”. (Yes, you do have to be pre-approved for this, but if your record is clean, it’s a formality). They even have a corporate program that lets you bring in a handful of unscreened non-members. All for $40 for 5 years. My driver’s license renewal costs more than double that. https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/prog/canpass/menu-eng.html https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/prog/canpass/menu-eng.html
bronco21016 5y ago
> With commercial air travel being so unreliable, this makes sense. That seems a stretch. Commercial air travel in the US is unbelievably reliable, and furthermore, safe. I’m not sure you can measure reliability in private aviation as the schedule is entirely ad hoc but the airlines are nearly always >98% completion with a few consistently >99.5%. Factor in safety and it’s not even comparable. There has been one death on a commercial airline due to an incident related to operation of the aircraft since 2008 (the Southwest aircraft that had a RUD of the engine leading to a woman being sucked from the window). Compare that with private aviation which still has a few accidents a year at a minimum despite drastically fewer operations. While I wouldn’t argue private flying is something to be avoided, statistically speaking, it would appear that travel aboard a US airline is the safest and likely among the most reliable means of traveling in the US.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  > There has been one death on a commercial airline due to an incident related to operation of the aircraft since 2008 That's close, but not precisely correct. In addition to SWA 1380, there was one death on PenAir 3296 in 2019 and 50 fatalities on Colgan Air 3407 in Feb 2009. All of those were US-operated Part 121 flights. (There were also many non-US commercial airline fatalities in that period, but I'll give you that in context you were referring only to flights operated by US airlines above.)

jmugan 5y ago

I'm amazed that people can just fly over everyone and make incredible amounts of noise while those on the ground are trying to enjoy peace and quiet.

DamnYuppie 5y ago
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or you really believe that. I could just as easily state that I am amazed that people can drive around with their sound systems blaring and make incredible amounts of noise while those around them are trying to enjoy peace and quiet. You are more likely to encounter a loud vehicle than a General Aviation aircraft unless you live very close to an airport.
- jmugan 5y ago
  I'm serious. Of course, we have to get around, so these things need to be balanced. Commercial airliners are less bad because they move more people, and some of those people are going to places to do productive work. But a private plane flying low over when you are on a nature hike is like a form of theft. You are taking something without compensation.
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    So why is it a form of theft to make noise while you are trying to enjoy a forest, but not theft for pilots to be prevented from enjoying the sky?
    - johnisgood 5y ago
      This does not make sense because enjoying a forest does not cause noise that would prevent the pilots from enjoying the sky.
    - jmugan 5y ago
      It would also be theft if you were making huge unnecessary noise playing music or whatnot. It's all about the amount of noise and how far it travels.

bigodbiel 5y ago

How else to bypass travel bans?

JCM9 5y ago

Queue the people that buy a house next to an airport and then complain about the airplanes. They will be “outraged” at the “onslaught” of planes flying overhead and demand reform.

pixl97 5y ago
Really with small planes it's going to be the number falling out of the sky. Juan Brown on the Blancoliro channel on YT goes over this pretty commonly when talking about small aircraft regulations.

Overtonwindow 5y ago

Public flying is awful. Truly awful.

jcrawfordor 5y ago

I'd be really curious what portion of this is part 135 vs part 91, and in general commercial charter vs. small-time commercial operations (survey, instruction, etc) and private (in the FAA sense of non-commercial). It seems surprising to me that private (non-commercial) aviation has picked up considering the high and increasing costs of getting into it, but then the fact that used prices for piston singles seem to be going up would tend to suggest that. I'm a relatively newly minted private pilot, having gotten my certificate shortly after the start of the pandemic, and I've met a couple of other people in a similar situation. I think the pandemic opened up a lot of free time and flight instruction was still operating throughout. But of course many of us are also stymied right now by there being "nowhere to go" in that aircraft prices are high and increasing and GA infrastructure is generally in a bad state in much of the country (no available private hangars in my urban area, community/FBO hangars often on waitlists, prices very high for everything). The extremely high price of new aircraft designs is very frustrating as well, as basically everyone without around a half a million to spend (or more realistically to finance) is stuck with a '60s 100LL design and boxed out of the newer diesel options, as well as safety features like AoA indication (although there remains some debate about how much AoA instruments actually improve safety) and airframe parachutes (which seem to just be a clear benefit with vanishingly few negative outcomes). Commercial charter operators are of course able to finance very expensive aircraft, but are nonetheless hit by the same impact - per-hour charter prices are extremely high, and a huge portion of that is amortizing how much even used jet aircraft cost. Those prices are going up, not down, a trend which seems to be permanent.

drewg123 5y ago

The folks who are in a financial position to afford private flights are the same folks to fly first class and use airline lounges. Both of them have gotten far, far worse since the start of the pandemic. Food and beverage options in first have been trimmed way back. I've been on first class flights with nothing but a pre-packaged ziplock bag with a bottle of water and bag of goldfish crackers offered in 1st. Contrast this to the pre-pandemic standard of pre-takeoff cocktails, full snack baskets, etc. Service is starting to come back, but I have not seen ground service (pre-flight drinks) since before the pandemic. A recent cross country flight offered nothing but a boxed sandwich in 1st, compared to full, hot meals pre-pandemic. Airline lounges have also had food and beverage options trimmed way back. Delta lounges had nothing but pre-packaged snacks for roughly a year. The lounges are now over-crowed with people that have finally earned status via credit card spend and extended status rules. All in all, flying is quite a bit worse for the first class traveler and I can understand their motivations.

jaywalk 5y ago
Nobody is going to feel bad for people flying first class and relaxing in airline lounges, but you're spot on explaining how those experiences have been diminished since Covid began. You used to be able to pick your hot meal the day before your flight, but now because I prefer to sit towards the back of first class I just have to hope that my preferred cold boxed sandwich is available by the time the flight attendant gets to me to ask what I want. And it's not like they're both good choices (to me, at least) with one being a decently nice sandwich with meat or fish, and the other being a vegetarian meal with fruits and nuts. I realize how petty that all must sound to someone who doesn't fly first class, but it's legitimately annoying.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Many carriers used to take orders in FEBO order (from Front on Even flight numbers, from the Back on Odd flight numbers). Then some switched to an East-West or North-South order to determine front vs back for those who didn’t pre-select 24 hours ahead.

SebastianKumor 5y ago

I am just about to do my PPL license next year. Mainly just for fun tho. No intention to replace commercial flying with this.

TomSwirly 5y ago

It simply astonishes me that six hours into this discussion, the tremendous carbon dioxide output of flying a few people in a private plane isn't mentioned even one time. By this time I'm just certain we'll never do anything about the climate catastrophe. At least I don't have kids. How do you the reader expect to explain it to your kids?