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I believe plenty of "quantum phenomenon" are utilized in humans' biochemistry[0]. Whether the brain "calculates" things using a method that is particularly simi

I believe plenty of "quantum phenomenon" are utilized in humans' biochemistry[0]. Whether the brain "calculates" things using a method that is particularly similar to the methods used in today's quantum computers is...unlikely. It probably is "quantum" in other ways though. 0: https://www.the-scientist.com/infographics/infographic--quantum-explanations-for-biological-phenomena-65917 https://www.the-scientist.com/infographics/infographic--quan...

saltyfamiliar 5y ago
Quantum computers don't seem very useful yet, but brains are extremely useful (and they use much less power). Maybe current generation quantum computers would be better if they used quantum mechanics more similarly to the ways our brains use it. The article you linked mentions that entanglement and qubits are being "studied in human consciousness" but I'm not sure what exactly that entails.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Ass far as we understand, out brains use quantum mechanics only as much as our processors use quantum mechanics already - the world is quantum mechanical, so our brains are as well. However, given the scale of known brain features, the temperature of the brain, and other sources of noise, it's very very very hard to imagine how the brain could be a quantum computer.
tialaramex 5y ago
Yes. It's unavoidably "quantum" in the sense that, as a physical machine in our universe it's subject to the rules, including quantum physics. However there is no apparent mechanism by which "thinking" could harness any interesting properties of quantum physics, it's just not happening at the right scale, like the way kids sand walls on the beach don't alter the world's tides.
- saltyfamiliar 5y ago
  That proportions in that analogy seem way off. Every single neuron of the human brain could be utilizing quantum mechanical effects at the same time. Not very much at all like a kid's sand castle against the world's tides. I don't think anyone really understand "thinking" and quantum mechanics well enough for the mechanisms to be apparent. I mean, squirrels convert forest detritus into general intelligence. I don't understand the strong certainty against the idea that there's some physics based piece of the puzzle that we're missing.
  - physicsguy 5y ago
    > Every single neuron of the human brain could be utilizing quantum mechanical effects Yes, they are, in that neurons are made up of molecules which are held together and bind due to quantum effects. But that's the limit of it.
  - katmannthree 5y ago
    I believe we've been able to model the processes behind neural firings for quite some time now, the issue is more mapping between that micro-scale understanding of how each individual piece in a 10^10 piece puzzle with 10^15 edges affects the macro-scale emergent properties of said puzzle. It's less a lack of understanding of the processes and more a complexity so great that it exceeds the grasp of our best modeling tools thus far. We can barely model the humble nematode c. elegans with its 330 neurons.
    - taneq 5y ago
      Can we barely model it yet? I thought they weren’t at the point of getting able to simulate any actual work behaviours?
      - katmannthree 5y ago
        We can model neural activations but the whole-cell body simulation was still unstable last I checked (admittedly a year or so ago)
- dekhn 5y ago
  Specifically: thinking and creativity do not require the QM phenomena of entanglement, tunnelling, uncertainty, or interference, no matter how much Penrose wants it to be true. By the butterfly principle, sand walls on the beach do alter the world's tides.
neom 5y ago
I had been doing a bunch of research on quantum biology around the time that I had the conversation I mentioned above, that's probably why at the time I wanted to discuss it with him. I think these two lectures are pretty good and I'd watched them around the time I was discussing this stuff with Jack. Quantum Biology: The Hidden Nature of Nature - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADiql3FG5is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADiql3FG5is An Introduction to Quantum Biology - with Philip Ball - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLeEsYDlXJk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLeEsYDlXJk

saltyfamiliar 5y ago

Quantum computers don't seem very useful yet, but brains are extremely useful (and they use much less power). Maybe current generation quantum computers would be better if they used quantum mechanics more similarly to the ways our brains use it. The article you linked mentions that entanglement and qubits are being "studied in human consciousness" but I'm not sure what exactly that entails.

tsimionescu 5y ago
Ass far as we understand, out brains use quantum mechanics only as much as our processors use quantum mechanics already - the world is quantum mechanical, so our brains are as well. However, given the scale of known brain features, the temperature of the brain, and other sources of noise, it's very very very hard to imagine how the brain could be a quantum computer.

tialaramex 5y ago

Yes. It's unavoidably "quantum" in the sense that, as a physical machine in our universe it's subject to the rules, including quantum physics. However there is no apparent mechanism by which "thinking" could harness any interesting properties of quantum physics, it's just not happening at the right scale, like the way kids sand walls on the beach don't alter the world's tides.

saltyfamiliar 5y ago
That proportions in that analogy seem way off. Every single neuron of the human brain could be utilizing quantum mechanical effects at the same time. Not very much at all like a kid's sand castle against the world's tides. I don't think anyone really understand "thinking" and quantum mechanics well enough for the mechanisms to be apparent. I mean, squirrels convert forest detritus into general intelligence. I don't understand the strong certainty against the idea that there's some physics based piece of the puzzle that we're missing.
- physicsguy 5y ago
  > Every single neuron of the human brain could be utilizing quantum mechanical effects Yes, they are, in that neurons are made up of molecules which are held together and bind due to quantum effects. But that's the limit of it.
- katmannthree 5y ago
  I believe we've been able to model the processes behind neural firings for quite some time now, the issue is more mapping between that micro-scale understanding of how each individual piece in a 10^10 piece puzzle with 10^15 edges affects the macro-scale emergent properties of said puzzle. It's less a lack of understanding of the processes and more a complexity so great that it exceeds the grasp of our best modeling tools thus far. We can barely model the humble nematode c. elegans with its 330 neurons.
  - taneq 5y ago
    Can we barely model it yet? I thought they weren’t at the point of getting able to simulate any actual work behaviours?
    - katmannthree 5y ago
      We can model neural activations but the whole-cell body simulation was still unstable last I checked (admittedly a year or so ago)
dekhn 5y ago
Specifically: thinking and creativity do not require the QM phenomena of entanglement, tunnelling, uncertainty, or interference, no matter how much Penrose wants it to be true. By the butterfly principle, sand walls on the beach do alter the world's tides.

neom 5y ago

I had been doing a bunch of research on quantum biology around the time that I had the conversation I mentioned above, that's probably why at the time I wanted to discuss it with him. I think these two lectures are pretty good and I'd watched them around the time I was discussing this stuff with Jack. Quantum Biology: The Hidden Nature of Nature - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADiql3FG5is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADiql3FG5is An Introduction to Quantum Biology - with Philip Ball - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLeEsYDlXJk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLeEsYDlXJk