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There are moped cars that are expensive, unreliable and quite unsafe. There was the initiative to install a speed limiter to regular cars to turn them into "li

There are moped cars that are expensive, unreliable and quite unsafe. There was the initiative to install a speed limiter to regular cars to turn them into "light cars" for kids but that didn't pass for some reason. EU regulations? How is it possible in Sweden? Countryside can be really sparse, with current amount of people a kid's nearest friend might live 5 km away. Cars make so much sense there. Lots of people learn to drive really young with a "peltoauto", a field car. That's legal as it's on private property.

CRConrad 5y ago
It's possible in Sweden because these "aren't cars, they're tractors". They're required to be modified so they can't go faster than 30 km/h [~18 mph] (or is it 50 km/h [30 mph] nowadays, I can't remember). It's a remnant of wartime legislation, when farmers had a genuine need to be able to use modified old cars for field work, because real tractors weren't available. In return for the lighter taxation on farm equipment, they were glad to accept the requirement; probably had to gear them down anyway, to be able to pull a plow etc. So they're legally registered as tractors, not cars. The moniker "EPAtraktor" has nothing to do with the US Environmental Protection Agency; it's an originally derogatory reference to Enhets(P)ris(A)ktiebolaget, a long-defunct low-price retail chain. So, ~ "Dollar Store tractor". (Or "Alepatraktori"?)
dncornholio 5y ago
5km is more of a bike ride length than a car ride length, so to me cars still don't make sense
- kybernetyk 5y ago
  let me guess: you live somewhere where winter is 10C with occasional rain? nordic winters are brutal - riding a bike in winter is suicidal
  - dncornholio 5y ago
    I have cycled 12km everyday to school when I was young, but it was on flat roads. In winter it was sometimes -5 to -15 and around those temps, sometimes I would fetch a ride, because I agree, in winter it can be harsh, but other then that, it was biking every day. Rain is even worse than snow by the way. Wind is also killing. But if it was a snowy day with not much wind, cycling is actually fun.
  - Kim_Bruning 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU Riding a bike in Finland seems to work just fine, given decent infrastructure. (Where "given decent infrastructure" is a constraint for practically any vehicle).
    - european321 5y ago
      This video is from the fifth largest city in Finland, so that hardly counts as a rural area with long distances This is what the roads looks like in the rural areas during winter https://www.google.com/search?q=maantie+talvella&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-iYuDm_X0AhVoAhAIHatPDScQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1900&bih=915&dpr=1 https://www.google.com/search?q=maantie+talvella&source=lnms...
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Try doing a 5km ride on ice in -15 C, and then report back about making sense.
  - fulafel 5y ago
    That's a routine & enjoyable commute for a lot of people (usually that weather means more packed snow than ice though). Along with doing a lot of recreational outdoor stuff at that weather. You want proper clothing of course.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    Studded tires and pogies work. My dad commuted regularly to work by bike more than 5km in the winter in Alaska at those temps. Edit: He lives in Fairbanks, where the fat bike originated. He doesn't ride one since he doesn't like the bounce, but people ride them all winter for fun. I think, like many places, the key is having trails to ride on to improve safety.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Sure, it works. I've done it. You'll wish you were in a car the whole time you're doing it though.
      - shkkmo 5y ago
        He owns a car and regularly chose to commute by bike during the winter. Now that he is retired, he still bikes during the winter purely for fun, as do many other people. That may not be the choice everyone would make, but my point us that it can make sense and bikes are quite feasible during the winter. Of course, the availability of trails has a huge impact on that choice and it's safety. Sled dogs, snow machines, and now other bike rider make sure that there are lots of trails all over.
- verve_rat 5y ago
  What's the weather like in Northern Scandinavia?
- pembrook 5y ago
  Have you ever taken a 30 minute bike ride over ice-and-snow-covered roads, in -20C temperatures, in the dark, on roads with no street lights or sidewalks (the sun sets at 2:00pm)? If so, good for you, you rugged badass! But I’m not sure we need to force everybody to do the same.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    I think it's not that bad, I've done similar in the past and still cycle everywhere, no mtter the weather. Just get a good bicycle light (B&M have some dynamo powered 80lux or 100lux lights) and then it's easily possible.
    - Gravityloss 5y ago
      Country roads might be ok for biking, even in winter with the right equipment (clothes, spike tires) but there can be roads with 100 km/h traffic and very narrow shoulders. And the flying sleet and salt etc... Sure, there are quite many bike roads and side roads but not available everywhere. And there are some buses too. But again, since it's so sparse, buses are hard to make work. Taxis do work. Basically, some parts of the country are really "car country" - and it makes total sense there. One shouldn't try to shoehorn cars into city centers, I agree about that. This is something else.
      - alistairSH 5y ago
        And you want young teens driving in those conditions? Remember, these “tractors” are speed limited to a fraction of 100km/h too.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        Gravityloss 5y ago
        Yes, much rather I'd have the teens driving "light cars" which are regular cars at 80 km/h in those conditions than for example flimsy moped cars. Cars have a tremendous amount of safety nowadays, and you get a lot of features for a little bit of money. We have excellent driver training, including training how to drive in slippery conditions, cars have regulation that they need automatic light leveling, there's yearly checkups for cars etc.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Seeing the comments here I am happy for the swedes that Americans with their safety obsession are not allowed to vote in Sweden.
consp 5y ago
> quite unsafe. For the occupant yes. Less so for everyone around. > that didn't pass for some reason. It's still a 1500kg block of steel in the hands of people with lesser developed sense of danger (still applies to some adults but that is a different discussion). I get the "people need to go places" but apparently there are no adults who can provide the "service" of driving someone somewhere in the countryside. The tractor exception was valid in my place as well and was dealt with in a updated law, it's not european afaik simply most countries banning it.
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  One can put a limit to 1000kg and 50km/h for cars that can be driven from 15-16 years old. The way it is today, at 16 you can fly a plane in most of Europe but you cannot drive a car. Does this make any sense?
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  > It's still a 1500kg block of steel in the hands of people with lesser developed sense of danger. In the US people start driving at 16, no? In Austria and Germany you can get an early license with 17. I got my moped license with 15, but that is probably a hard sell in the north ... I'd say reduce the age at which people can get a license, make drivers education better, and put a limit on horsepower (same way it is done with motorcycle licenses).
  - thealfreds 5y ago
    For the US driving at 16 is common especially in the rural states. We could also get our learners permit at 14 so I could drive with my parents in the car. Mostly for me it meant I was the one then doing the 5hr drive to my grandparents place. Also several of my friends got mopeds at 14 and would drive them around town. Not good for driving on gravel roads but was great for the kids in town. The farm kids out of town would drive their parents trucks/cars in and around their property starting around 13/14 but that was generally to haul feed and equipment around.
    - deleted 5y ago
tzs 5y ago
> Countryside can be really sparse, with current amount of people a kid's nearest friend might live 5 km away. What do kids who aren't old enough for homebuilt pickups do to visit such friends?
- Mezzie 5y ago
  Biking, online, and school meetups. My dad and friends used to do 50 mile round trips on bikes back in the day. I hung out and talked to people online. It was also normal to do things like go home with a friend after school to hang out and have a parent pick you up when they got out of work, or hang out at practices after school. So it's doable but it requires a lot more logistics on the part of the adults, which is why everybody's happy when the kids can drive.
- izacus 5y ago
  The crazy solution we had in the more southern part of Europe - we used bikes. Crazy, I know.
  - yetihehe 5y ago
    I think the "more southern" part of Europe applies here. It's probably about "not being covered in snow for most of the year" which helps cyclists. Yeah, you can use bicycles on snow, but it's not pleasant. Most people hide their bicycles for winter and I'm south from Sweden.
    - izacus 5y ago
      Hmm, I've seen plenty of biking infrastructure un Umea and Lulea (including heated bridges that are used in winter), not to mention people using them even in colder times. It seems not all your countrymen agree with your thinking about winter biking.
      - yetihehe 5y ago
        Of course not everyone agrees. I see someone on bicycle almost every day, but those are either very dedicated cyclists or those who have no other means to move faster than walking but still need to. Heated bridges? I've never seen one and roads are not even fully desnowed in my town.

CRConrad 5y ago

It's possible in Sweden because these "aren't cars, they're tractors". They're required to be modified so they can't go faster than 30 km/h [~18 mph] (or is it 50 km/h [30 mph] nowadays, I can't remember). It's a remnant of wartime legislation, when farmers had a genuine need to be able to use modified old cars for field work, because real tractors weren't available. In return for the lighter taxation on farm equipment, they were glad to accept the requirement; probably had to gear them down anyway, to be able to pull a plow etc. So they're legally registered as tractors, not cars. The moniker "EPAtraktor" has nothing to do with the US Environmental Protection Agency; it's an originally derogatory reference to Enhets(P)ris(A)ktiebolaget, a long-defunct low-price retail chain. So, ~ "Dollar Store tractor". (Or "Alepatraktori"?)

dncornholio 5y ago

5km is more of a bike ride length than a car ride length, so to me cars still don't make sense

kybernetyk 5y ago
let me guess: you live somewhere where winter is 10C with occasional rain? nordic winters are brutal - riding a bike in winter is suicidal
- dncornholio 5y ago
  I have cycled 12km everyday to school when I was young, but it was on flat roads. In winter it was sometimes -5 to -15 and around those temps, sometimes I would fetch a ride, because I agree, in winter it can be harsh, but other then that, it was biking every day. Rain is even worse than snow by the way. Wind is also killing. But if it was a snowy day with not much wind, cycling is actually fun.
- Kim_Bruning 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU Riding a bike in Finland seems to work just fine, given decent infrastructure. (Where "given decent infrastructure" is a constraint for practically any vehicle).
  - european321 5y ago
    This video is from the fifth largest city in Finland, so that hardly counts as a rural area with long distances This is what the roads looks like in the rural areas during winter https://www.google.com/search?q=maantie+talvella&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-iYuDm_X0AhVoAhAIHatPDScQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1900&bih=915&dpr=1 https://www.google.com/search?q=maantie+talvella&source=lnms...
user-the-name 5y ago
Try doing a 5km ride on ice in -15 C, and then report back about making sense.
- fulafel 5y ago
  That's a routine & enjoyable commute for a lot of people (usually that weather means more packed snow than ice though). Along with doing a lot of recreational outdoor stuff at that weather. You want proper clothing of course.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  Studded tires and pogies work. My dad commuted regularly to work by bike more than 5km in the winter in Alaska at those temps. Edit: He lives in Fairbanks, where the fat bike originated. He doesn't ride one since he doesn't like the bounce, but people ride them all winter for fun. I think, like many places, the key is having trails to ride on to improve safety.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Sure, it works. I've done it. You'll wish you were in a car the whole time you're doing it though.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      He owns a car and regularly chose to commute by bike during the winter. Now that he is retired, he still bikes during the winter purely for fun, as do many other people. That may not be the choice everyone would make, but my point us that it can make sense and bikes are quite feasible during the winter. Of course, the availability of trails has a huge impact on that choice and it's safety. Sled dogs, snow machines, and now other bike rider make sure that there are lots of trails all over.
verve_rat 5y ago
What's the weather like in Northern Scandinavia?
pembrook 5y ago
Have you ever taken a 30 minute bike ride over ice-and-snow-covered roads, in -20C temperatures, in the dark, on roads with no street lights or sidewalks (the sun sets at 2:00pm)? If so, good for you, you rugged badass! But I’m not sure we need to force everybody to do the same.
- kuschku 5y ago
  I think it's not that bad, I've done similar in the past and still cycle everywhere, no mtter the weather. Just get a good bicycle light (B&M have some dynamo powered 80lux or 100lux lights) and then it's easily possible.
  - Gravityloss 5y ago
    Country roads might be ok for biking, even in winter with the right equipment (clothes, spike tires) but there can be roads with 100 km/h traffic and very narrow shoulders. And the flying sleet and salt etc... Sure, there are quite many bike roads and side roads but not available everywhere. And there are some buses too. But again, since it's so sparse, buses are hard to make work. Taxis do work. Basically, some parts of the country are really "car country" - and it makes total sense there. One shouldn't try to shoehorn cars into city centers, I agree about that. This is something else.
    - alistairSH 5y ago
      And you want young teens driving in those conditions? Remember, these “tractors” are speed limited to a fraction of 100km/h too.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - Gravityloss 5y ago
        Yes, much rather I'd have the teens driving "light cars" which are regular cars at 80 km/h in those conditions than for example flimsy moped cars. Cars have a tremendous amount of safety nowadays, and you get a lot of features for a little bit of money. We have excellent driver training, including training how to drive in slippery conditions, cars have regulation that they need automatic light leveling, there's yearly checkups for cars etc.
elzbardico 5y ago
Seeing the comments here I am happy for the swedes that Americans with their safety obsession are not allowed to vote in Sweden.

consp 5y ago

> quite unsafe. For the occupant yes. Less so for everyone around. > that didn't pass for some reason. It's still a 1500kg block of steel in the hands of people with lesser developed sense of danger (still applies to some adults but that is a different discussion). I get the "people need to go places" but apparently there are no adults who can provide the "service" of driving someone somewhere in the countryside. The tractor exception was valid in my place as well and was dealt with in a updated law, it's not european afaik simply most countries banning it.

AdrianB1 5y ago
One can put a limit to 1000kg and 50km/h for cars that can be driven from 15-16 years old. The way it is today, at 16 you can fly a plane in most of Europe but you cannot drive a car. Does this make any sense?
turbinerneiter 5y ago
> It's still a 1500kg block of steel in the hands of people with lesser developed sense of danger. In the US people start driving at 16, no? In Austria and Germany you can get an early license with 17. I got my moped license with 15, but that is probably a hard sell in the north ... I'd say reduce the age at which people can get a license, make drivers education better, and put a limit on horsepower (same way it is done with motorcycle licenses).
- thealfreds 5y ago
  For the US driving at 16 is common especially in the rural states. We could also get our learners permit at 14 so I could drive with my parents in the car. Mostly for me it meant I was the one then doing the 5hr drive to my grandparents place. Also several of my friends got mopeds at 14 and would drive them around town. Not good for driving on gravel roads but was great for the kids in town. The farm kids out of town would drive their parents trucks/cars in and around their property starting around 13/14 but that was generally to haul feed and equipment around.
  - deleted 5y ago

tzs 5y ago

> Countryside can be really sparse, with current amount of people a kid's nearest friend might live 5 km away. What do kids who aren't old enough for homebuilt pickups do to visit such friends?

Mezzie 5y ago
Biking, online, and school meetups. My dad and friends used to do 50 mile round trips on bikes back in the day. I hung out and talked to people online. It was also normal to do things like go home with a friend after school to hang out and have a parent pick you up when they got out of work, or hang out at practices after school. So it's doable but it requires a lot more logistics on the part of the adults, which is why everybody's happy when the kids can drive.
izacus 5y ago
The crazy solution we had in the more southern part of Europe - we used bikes. Crazy, I know.
- yetihehe 5y ago
  I think the "more southern" part of Europe applies here. It's probably about "not being covered in snow for most of the year" which helps cyclists. Yeah, you can use bicycles on snow, but it's not pleasant. Most people hide their bicycles for winter and I'm south from Sweden.
  - izacus 5y ago
    Hmm, I've seen plenty of biking infrastructure un Umea and Lulea (including heated bridges that are used in winter), not to mention people using them even in colder times. It seems not all your countrymen agree with your thinking about winter biking.
    - yetihehe 5y ago
      Of course not everyone agrees. I see someone on bicycle almost every day, but those are either very dedicated cyclists or those who have no other means to move faster than walking but still need to. Heated bridges? I've never seen one and roads are not even fully desnowed in my town.