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I am Lithuanian; Lithuania<->Taiwan<->PRC conflict is frequently a topic of discussion these days among my peers. My position, shared by a few others, is that
by motiejus 5y ago
I am Lithuanian; Lithuania<->Taiwan<->PRC conflict is frequently a topic of discussion these days among my peers.
My position, shared by a few others, is that this is the next best thing that happened in Lithuania after leaving USSR: the first being joining NATO and EU in 2004.
Everyone in the world can (and almost everyone do) endorse PRC. "You won't get fired for picking IBM/Oracle/PRC". While very few countries have the guts and the internal political structure that allows opening a Taiwanese representative office. Lithuania shows that it prefers dealing with a country that takes the human rights into account; being the first one "in the party" to do so bring us significant advantages. Both Taiwanese investments and Lithuanian exports to Taiwan are picking up pace.
This will hurt us in the short-term, sure. It already does: packages(/containers) from PRC are delayed or cancelled, invoices are not being paid, we are losing business there. In the long term, if we don't change our mind (not impossible), I think this is for the better.
- antattack 5y agoIt's impossible to do that for larger countries, cooperation with China is the only way. Large economies are too tightly coupled to just cut China off. It would take a decade or two.
- notpachet 5y agoSunk cost fallacy. Anything is possible, it's just a matter of how much pain you're willing to bear for your principles.
- peoplefromibiza 5y agomy bet is on "no more than the current situation" which is already causing big social issues in all western countries.
- antattack 5y agoWe were fine profiting off from their lack of principals and were looking the other way for decades. There's no point for sudden drastic measures. Another thing to keep in mind: any serious confrontation with China will be exploited by Russia. They already have made their moves known. I think Musk was right on China recently, basically said that we have to come to terms with new reality, on both sides: https://youtu.be/lSD_vpfikbE?t=2038 https://youtu.be/lSD_vpfikbE?t=2038
- gytdev 5y agoI am also Lithuanian. I totally disagree with Your position and see no justification why this is good for us. You seem to be naive and ideological. We didn't do a lot of business with Taiwan previously, sure. But it's very small comparing to the amount of business we are losing to China. I don't know if You have noticed the rising prices of products in our country much faster than wages. It took 1-2 months to get a shipping container from China 6months ago. Now it takes 3-5 months. Prices are going up. Taking a political stance against China hurts our businesses, increases prices to us all. With the marginal benefit of a pat on the back from ideological people
- Aeolun 5y agoEven if you lose all business with China, in the long term that is better. It’s disturbing I cannot buy goods that are not (at least partially) made in China.
- iszomer 5y agoBest observed while grocery shopping in chinatowns or dense Asian marketplaces. I'd say 95% of canned and packaged products stocked are imports from China.
- gpm 5y agoOne component of this seems to be that by moving online we've lost access to the labels on goods. In a store, you can usually just look at the "made in <X>" label printed on the box. On amazon, that information is pretty much never available. Possibly this is partially because they're commingling inventory made in different places, but I think a lot of it's just that amazon doesn't see any reason to force people to list that.
- ratww 5y agoI once asked a person working on a large music instrument website why products "Made in USA" or "Made in [European Country]" were labeled as such, but the ones made in other countries aren't, and the answer was pretty simple: they A/B tested it, but "Made in China" or even "Made in [Asian Country]" drives people away. Japan and Korea have a good reputation for instruments, though.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
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- forty 5y agoI'm French, I hope we (France, EU) follow your lead.
- baby 5y agoSame here… Macron you reading this?
- lustitia 5y agoMacron and Moon, president of South Korea, are the two country leaders left that is sympathetic to the CCP (or sympathetic to the CCP money). Germany just switched from Merkel who was sympathetic to both CCP and Putin to the traffic light coalition, which is now standing up to CCP. Hopefully Macron and Moon's party both leaves office next year with the election
- mytailorisrich 5y agoNo. France's traditional stance is more independent non-aligned and it is in France's interest to maintain decent working relations with all sides. France was the first Western country to recognise the PRC, for instance. This was realpolitik and hopefully that will continue. Before every action we need to ask yourself what we want to achieve and whether that is actually achievable. This requires knowledge of other countries' history, culture, and politics. Rash, emotional moves are rarely productive. Historically France and other Western powers have been aggressors towards China (which partly caused the reaction that led to the current Chinese regime). The reality is that a country like France is in no position to pressure China and rash action against China would help the Chinese government at home by allowing them to invoke history.
- lumost 5y agoParticipating in trade with the PRC requires action to support the PRC through domestic censorship and diplomatic support on issues the PRC cares about (Taiwan). France has a choice in whether they choose to support the PRC or not - this requires stepping on red lines and facing the consequences.
- croes 5y agoThe whole west depends on cheap labor and cheap resources that doesn't fit with human rights and economic interdependence prevents wars. Lithuania is small so the impact of a chinese boycott could be compensated by other countries, a full trade war has lot more impact, short term and long term. You understimate the chaos that then comes into being.
- loeg 5y agoChinese labor is less cheap than it once was, and rising.
- croes 5y agoI bet that is more of a concern than human rights and the taiwan situation. I also bet if China would still be economically and technologically inferior to the west taiwan wouldn't be even on the agenda. We don't have a problem with Saudi Arabia's war with Yemen. Even after they caused largest cholera epidemic in human history.
- lustitia 5y agoaccording to chinalawblog.com, China WFOEs are now closing left and right https://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/china-wfoe-closures-faqs/ https://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/china-wfoe-closures-f... and manufacturing are leaving China at an increasing pace https://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/manufacturing-outside-china-nike-likes-it-and-you-should-too/ https://harrisbricken.com/chinalawblog/manufacturing-outside...
- geff82 5y agoWhat interesting software or locally producing electronics companies are there in Lithuania? I will by something from them instantly.
- petre 5y agoTeltonika, Ruptela.
- cesis 5y agohttp://silelis.com http://silelis.com projectors and http://snaige.lt http://snaige.lt refrigerators are the first ones that come to mind.
- delhn 5y agoAre they made in PRC though?
- kornelijus 5y agoSNAIGĖ makes everything locally in their Alytus factory. Haven't heard about Šilelis before, but it does seem like a new company bought the trademark to sell repackaged junk from China.
- oseityphelysiol 5y agoFun fact, Ubiquiti started here (it’s not a Lithuanian company though). Another big one that’s founded and manufactures all it’s stuff in Lithuania is Teltonika. They make telecommunications equipment (mostly LTE based wireless modems).
- cosmodisk 5y agoSoftware:NordVPN. Hardware: Deeper,Teltonika.
- vincnetas 5y agodeeper.com (NSFW) is not the right site. deeper.eu is the correct one ;)
- GekkePrutser 5y agoI agree.. I wish more countries would take a stand like this. But my own country (the Netherlands) are all about commerce and big business, they don't care about ideology.
- maybelsyrup 5y ago> are all about commerce and big business This is ideology
- icouldbebetter 5y agoYes, but an empty ideology nonetheless.
- mytailorisrich 5y agoI think we should not be overly naive and idealistic when it comes to international relations. A country's course of action is weighted in order to advance national interests. In the context of tensions with Russia and Belarus it seems likely that Lithuania is getting something out of its stance against China from the US.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- IsThisYou 5y agoI hope the rest of Europe follows Lithuania's lead. Mad respects. Though I doubt that my country (Germany) will do anything ethical or useful about it. As usual. German foreign policy is a disgrace. The entire EU should just open Taiwanese embassies. What's the CCP gonna do? Cut diplomatic ties with the EU? Not gonna happen, the PRC economy can't survive long-term without the West.
- lazyeye 5y agoIts interesting to see which countries are standing up to China. Particularly in the West where we like to grandstand over human rights (only up to the point where there is any kind of financial impact).
- xxel 5y agoSay thank you to you minister Lanzbergis Gabrielius who technicaly fucked-up with China. By the way you can not change your mind. All shippings relocated to other counties allready. Latvia / Estonia / Poland etc.
- bakuninsbart 5y agoWhile I generally think the EU should have a deeper relationship with Taiwan, I disagree with your interpretation of what happened here. Lithuania has weak trade relations with the PRC in the first place, and got basically paid by the US to provoke the PRC. The EU having no coordinated foreign policy, but being supposed to show solidarity is ill equipped to react to a member state just going of the rails, and this now basically forces the hands of the other members. This sets a dangerous precedent: A member state shouldn't be able to start shit and then hide behind the others, it is a perversion of the idea of solidarity. If the rest of the EU shows major Support for Lithuania now, it will signal that small countries can dictate policy through stunts like these. It also once again shows that the US really loves to manipulate supposed allies if it benefits them, and that the transatlantic partnership must be fundamentally redefined.
- puszczyk 5y ago> Lithuania … got basically paid by the US to provoke the PRC Any links on that?
- bakuninsbart 5y agohttps://www.reuters.com/business/lithuania-get-us-trade-support-it-faces-china-fury-over-taiwan-2021-11-19/ https://www.reuters.com/business/lithuania-get-us-trade-supp...
- petre 5y agoThis occured after the embassy opening, one could argue that the spat with China attracted US investments. Lithuania took a step in the right direction, something other EU states (Germany in particular) are afraid to do because it will affect their trade with China. Taiwan is an independent country, regardless of what the PRC thinks or wants others to think.
- ericjang 5y agoyou seem to be implying that 1) a transaction between the US and Lithuania occurred in which Lithuania agrees to provoke PRC. 2) Lithuania provokes PRC (presumably the act involves the embassy opening). However, the article you linked publicizes the U.S. trade support which seems to have occurred after (2). The article you linked does not permit one to draw the causal inference that (1)->(2)
- pxue 5y agoI whole-heartedly agree with your narrative. However, following your argument of human rights, would you cut diplomatic ties to Russia in similar fashion? Who's your largest trading partner?
- edwinyzh 5y agoWell, I hope the US will payback well to you guys for being in line with Washington's desire and agenda.