8 ms·

Satellite detects large mass of water in Mars canyon

259 points by ChuckMcM 5y ago

charlieflowers 5y ago
So, we ship our carbon to Mars, which warms it up while solving our climate problem. Once it's warm enough, that water can exist on the surface, setting it up for terraforming. Now that I've solved all that, I think I'll knock off early for the weekend.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- droobles 5y ago
  Great job, thank you for your contribution to mankind! :)
  - nathancahill 5y ago
    I'm an idea man. I link up with implementers, and then we share the money.
- sharken 5y ago
  Not even qualified to solve this, but there are several ways to capture carbon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture_and_storage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture_and_storage
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    Not enough carbon, that said somehow siphoning CO2 from Venus turning it into dry ice and using a mass driver to shoot it at mars whilst completely nuts and well beyond our technological reach might actually work. It would also be a 2 for 1 terraforming effort. Then the only thing you need to do is figure out how to spin Venus to break the tidal lock. And if you set up your mass drivers correctly you should be able to give it some additional spin at least.
ChuckMcM 5y ago
The paper is here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103521004528?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001910352... but it is pay walled. One of the more interesting challenges in creating self sustaining colonies on other planets is the availability of water. And this is another example of how Mars might provide water in a very accessible way (40% by volume is a lot of water :-)) NASA has already pretty much convinced itself that plants could grow in suitably amended martian soil[1][2]. I haven't seen a paper yet on whether or not there is enough solar irradiation for robust photo synthesis (needed for the production of plant sugars) but one could always add grow lights powered by one of the small nuclear power sources[3]. [1] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/can-plants-grow-with-mars-soil https://www.nasa.gov/feature/can-plants-grow-with-mars-soil [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0103138#:~:text=Conclusions.%20Our%20results%20show%20that%20it%20is%20in,in%20full%20soils%20themselves%20remains%20an%20open%20question https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2021/12/06/nasa-is-looking-for-a-few-good-nukes/?sh=1f24602857d4#:~:text=Kilopower%20is%20a%20small%2C%20lightweight%20fission%20power%20system,Security%20Administration%20%28NNSA%29%20laboratory%20in%20partnership%20with%20NASA https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2021/12/06/nasa-is-l....
- account-5 5y ago
  The link you provided for the paper wasn't paywalled for me, no idea why.
  - dougmccune 5y ago
    It’s not paywalled. OP probably saw the name Elsevier and assumed it was paywalled, but it’s open access and licensed CC BY.
    - ChuckMcM 5y ago
      Exactly this.
- hinkley 5y ago
rkagerer 5y ago
The FREND instrument searches for neutrons to map hydrogen content in the Martian soil. FREND revealed an area with an unusually large amount of hydrogen in the colossal Valles Marineris canyon system: assuming the hydrogen we see is bound into water molecules, as much as 40% of the near-surface material in this region appears to be water. How confident are we that hydrogen detected really is water?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Sharlin 5y ago
  I don't think there are many plausible alternatives, really.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  There just aren't alternatives to what it could be. Hydrogen just doesn't get bound up into minerals (unless essentially as water) and not at any great density, and there isn't another plausible substance that would be hanging out in a canyon on mars.
  - labster 5y ago
    It could be hydrocarbons. We just found oil on on Mars! Black gold, Tharsis tea! Now if only we had an atmosphere to burn it in.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - fartcannon 5y ago
      Isn't that actually one of the terraforming methods proposed?
    - malwarebytess 5y ago
      If there was ever life on Mars at scale it wouldn't be impossible or unusual to find oil and coal, would it? Or does it degrade on the timescales that would be required for this to be possible? tbc I don't believe there's oil on mars nor do I think it is remotely likely.
downWidOutaFite 5y ago
Is this canyon anywhere near our rovers? EDIT: looked it up, they're basically on the opposite sides of the planet Water: https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Water&params=7_S_72_W_globe:Mars https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Water&par... Perseverance rover: https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Perseverance_(rover)&params=18.4447_N_77.4508_E_globe:Mars https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Persevera...
- ryanmercer 5y ago
  No, and Valles Marineris is about 7km deep in places vs the Grand Canyon's 1.8km max depth, not something a rover could go check out. Robert Zubrin actually uses Valles Marineris as part of the plot in his work of fiction First Landing that lays out how a manned mission to Mars might go.
  - ChuckMcM 5y ago
    But a helicopter could. :-)
    - jvanderbot 5y ago
      exactly, and in the newfound current era of pinpoint orbit-to-surface landings you might just send a rover too.
    - duxup 5y ago
      I'm imagining a future where space colonization is just robots fighting it out / eachother.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - ChuckMcM 5y ago
        You would love to read the Corporation Wars trilogy https://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Wars-Trilogy-Ken-MacLeod-ebook/dp/B07DC24GD2/ https://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Wars-Trilogy-Ken-MacLeod-...
java-man 5y ago
Direct link to paper: [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103521004528/pdfft?isDTMRedir=true&download=true https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001910352...
sdfgsdf 5y ago
I swear in my life time we've discovered water in Mars about 8 times now.
- pvarangot 5y ago
  That's because (newsflash) there's water on Mars! Question is when will someone invest in a mission for something that actually does something with it that is not measuring its existence with remote sensors.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bamboozled 5y ago
    I think the parent is alluding to the fact that this topic keeps being presented to us as news.
  - slingnow 5y ago
    There's water here on Earth, too. But we don't keep "discovering" it.
- codefreakxff 5y ago
  I don’t understand any of these comments. Discover has two meanings. Unexpected or within the course of a search. We discover oil and mineral deposits all the time. We don’t usually say “You discovered more lithium? Big deal. Been done before” While it may not be mind blowing, each source of water discovered makes some kind of Martian base more feasible so it is of interest to some If new sources of water don’t interest you, that’s fine. But it is still within the definition of discovery
mrjangles 5y ago
Every 5 or 6 years since I was born, NASA has discovered water on Mars. I was predicting they would discover water on Mars back in 2020, but I think COVID clearly slowed them down this time.
czottmann 5y ago
Archived version of the original paper: https://archive.ph/unuNw https://archive.ph/unuNw

259 points by ChuckMcM 5y ago

So, we ship our carbon to Mars, which warms it up while solving our climate problem. Once it's warm enough, that water can exist on the surface, setting it up for terraforming. Now that I've solved all that, I think I'll knock off early for the weekend.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
droobles 5y ago
Great job, thank you for your contribution to mankind! :)
- nathancahill 5y ago
  I'm an idea man. I link up with implementers, and then we share the money.
sharken 5y ago
Not even qualified to solve this, but there are several ways to capture carbon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture_and_storage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture_and_storage
- dogma1138 5y ago
  Not enough carbon, that said somehow siphoning CO2 from Venus turning it into dry ice and using a mass driver to shoot it at mars whilst completely nuts and well beyond our technological reach might actually work. It would also be a 2 for 1 terraforming effort. Then the only thing you need to do is figure out how to spin Venus to break the tidal lock. And if you set up your mass drivers correctly you should be able to give it some additional spin at least.

ChuckMcM 5y ago

The paper is here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103521004528?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001910352... but it is pay walled. One of the more interesting challenges in creating self sustaining colonies on other planets is the availability of water. And this is another example of how Mars might provide water in a very accessible way (40% by volume is a lot of water :-)) NASA has already pretty much convinced itself that plants could grow in suitably amended martian soil[1][2]. I haven't seen a paper yet on whether or not there is enough solar irradiation for robust photo synthesis (needed for the production of plant sugars) but one could always add grow lights powered by one of the small nuclear power sources[3]. [1] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/can-plants-grow-with-mars-soil https://www.nasa.gov/feature/can-plants-grow-with-mars-soil [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0103138#:~:text=Conclusions.%20Our%20results%20show%20that%20it%20is%20in,in%20full%20soils%20themselves%20remains%20an%20open%20question https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2021/12/06/nasa-is-looking-for-a-few-good-nukes/?sh=1f24602857d4#:~:text=Kilopower%20is%20a%20small%2C%20lightweight%20fission%20power%20system,Security%20Administration%20%28NNSA%29%20laboratory%20in%20partnership%20with%20NASA https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2021/12/06/nasa-is-l....

account-5 5y ago
The link you provided for the paper wasn't paywalled for me, no idea why.
- dougmccune 5y ago
  It’s not paywalled. OP probably saw the name Elsevier and assumed it was paywalled, but it’s open access and licensed CC BY.
  - ChuckMcM 5y ago
    Exactly this.
hinkley 5y ago

rkagerer 5y ago

The FREND instrument searches for neutrons to map hydrogen content in the Martian soil. FREND revealed an area with an unusually large amount of hydrogen in the colossal Valles Marineris canyon system: assuming the hydrogen we see is bound into water molecules, as much as 40% of the near-surface material in this region appears to be water. How confident are we that hydrogen detected really is water?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Sharlin 5y ago
I don't think there are many plausible alternatives, really.
colechristensen 5y ago
There just aren't alternatives to what it could be. Hydrogen just doesn't get bound up into minerals (unless essentially as water) and not at any great density, and there isn't another plausible substance that would be hanging out in a canyon on mars.
- labster 5y ago
  It could be hydrocarbons. We just found oil on on Mars! Black gold, Tharsis tea! Now if only we had an atmosphere to burn it in.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    Isn't that actually one of the terraforming methods proposed?
  - malwarebytess 5y ago
    If there was ever life on Mars at scale it wouldn't be impossible or unusual to find oil and coal, would it? Or does it degrade on the timescales that would be required for this to be possible? tbc I don't believe there's oil on mars nor do I think it is remotely likely.

downWidOutaFite 5y ago

Is this canyon anywhere near our rovers? EDIT: looked it up, they're basically on the opposite sides of the planet Water: https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Water&params=7_S_72_W_globe:Mars https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Water&par... Perseverance rover: https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Perseverance_(rover)&params=18.4447_N_77.4508_E_globe:Mars https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Persevera...

ryanmercer 5y ago
No, and Valles Marineris is about 7km deep in places vs the Grand Canyon's 1.8km max depth, not something a rover could go check out. Robert Zubrin actually uses Valles Marineris as part of the plot in his work of fiction First Landing that lays out how a manned mission to Mars might go.
- ChuckMcM 5y ago
  But a helicopter could. :-)
  - jvanderbot 5y ago
    exactly, and in the newfound current era of pinpoint orbit-to-surface landings you might just send a rover too.
  - duxup 5y ago
    I'm imagining a future where space colonization is just robots fighting it out / eachother.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - ChuckMcM 5y ago
      You would love to read the Corporation Wars trilogy https://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Wars-Trilogy-Ken-MacLeod-ebook/dp/B07DC24GD2/ https://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Wars-Trilogy-Ken-MacLeod-...

java-man 5y ago

Direct link to paper: [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103521004528/pdfft?isDTMRedir=true&download=true https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001910352...

sdfgsdf 5y ago

I swear in my life time we've discovered water in Mars about 8 times now.

pvarangot 5y ago
That's because (newsflash) there's water on Mars! Question is when will someone invest in a mission for something that actually does something with it that is not measuring its existence with remote sensors.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bamboozled 5y ago
  I think the parent is alluding to the fact that this topic keeps being presented to us as news.
- slingnow 5y ago
  There's water here on Earth, too. But we don't keep "discovering" it.
codefreakxff 5y ago
I don’t understand any of these comments. Discover has two meanings. Unexpected or within the course of a search. We discover oil and mineral deposits all the time. We don’t usually say “You discovered more lithium? Big deal. Been done before” While it may not be mind blowing, each source of water discovered makes some kind of Martian base more feasible so it is of interest to some If new sources of water don’t interest you, that’s fine. But it is still within the definition of discovery

mrjangles 5y ago

Every 5 or 6 years since I was born, NASA has discovered water on Mars. I was predicting they would discover water on Mars back in 2020, but I think COVID clearly slowed them down this time.

czottmann 5y ago

Archived version of the original paper: https://archive.ph/unuNw https://archive.ph/unuNw