20 ms·

Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

291 points by ivan_gammel 5y ago

schleck8 5y ago
They are on vacation only, nothing to see here.
- PickledHotdog 5y ago
  The InTourist system still alive and well!
reducesuffering 5y ago
From Google Translate: 'A column of 70 vehicles with food is estimated at RUB130 million Rostov court published a verdict confirming the presence of the Russian military in Donbass The Kirovsky District Court of Rostov-on-Don issued a verdict in November in a case of corruption in the supply of food, which indirectly confirms the presence of the Russian military in Donbas, where the war is going on. The document was published on the website of the court. The defendant in the case was the deputy regional manager for military nutrition of one of the commercial companies. He was found guilty of bribing the head of the Center for State Sanitary and Epidemiological Supervision of the Southern Military District with the rank of lieutenant colonel. It follows from the verdict that the official demanded 90 thousand rubles a month in order not to interfere with the supply of food to the Russian military. And we are talking about the military, who are in the east of Ukraine. “His responsibilities included organizing and fulfilling obligations for the purchase and sale of food and the creation of the necessary stock in the warehouse <...> The food was intended to be sent to military units of the RF Armed Forces deployed on the territory of the DPR and LPR,” the case file says. According to the testimony of the accused, food supplies to the DPR and LPR were carried out every two weeks. For this, a column of "more than 70 vehicles with a carrying capacity of about 40 tons and a total volume of more than 1300 tons" was formed. Among the products were flour, canned food, fresh vegetables. “The total cost of food for one delivery was more than 130 million rubles,” the verdict says. According to various estimates, one such delivery is enough to feed about 25 thousand people. The defendant also said that before the shipment of the cargo, the food was checked by a "Russian in the rank of major", and on the territory of Donbass the trucks were "under the protection of the receiving party." The Kremlin denies the presence of the Russian military in the DPR and LPR.'
jacquesm 5y ago
As if there was any doubt about this. Putin isn't fooling anybody except for maybe a very gullible fraction of the Russian citizens. But even there most people are quite aware of what the score is.
- jl6 5y ago
  The top power move is to lie, and to know your lie will be obvious, and to know that there is nothing anyone can do about it.
- necovek 5y ago
  Of course: it's not like anything will change even with proof. In conflicts like these, it's always people in the area that'll suffer most.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    And those that happen to overfly that area.
necovek 5y ago
The text of the ruling was pulled from the Russian court site, but you can still verify it says the same stuff by hitting the Internet Archive from yesterday: https://web.archive.org/web/20211215174957/https://kirovsky--ros.sudrf.ru/modules.php?name=sud_delo&srv_num=1&name_op=doc&number=213117823&delo_id=1540006&new=0&text_number=1 https://web.archive.org/web/20211215174957/https://kirovsky-...
- mkl 5y ago
  Clickable: https://web.archive.org/web/20211215174957/https://kirovsky--ros.sudrf.ru/modules.php?name=sud_delo&srv_num=1&name_op=doc&number=213117823&delo_id=1540006&new=0&text_number=1 https://web.archive.org/web/20211215174957/https://kirovsky-...
  - necovek 5y ago
    Fixed it as well, thanks :)
w_t_payne 5y ago
Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.
- woodpanel 5y ago
  By painting your domestic voices of dissent as "Russian Assets" you're the closest thing next to an actual Russian Asset
  - w_t_payne 5y ago
    They stop being mere 'domestic voices of dissent' once they start threatening my family.
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
  > attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. Ukraine makes this easy for him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
  - w_t_payne 5y ago
    Clearly pretty vile, indefensible stuff, and yet it's Putin who is waging war against us.
    - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
      Realpolitik: it doesn't matter who started it. If Ukraine wants western assistance in this fight, they should stop incorporating neo-nazi militias into their national guard.
      - w_t_payne 5y ago
        I don't care who started it. I'm focused on direct threats to myself and my family.
jmacd 5y ago
I think we in the west need something like a 'doctrine of the foregone conclusion'. Often things are very obvious, even notorious, but because we do not want to face the eventuality, we do things like negotiate or perseverate our denials all while the situation escalates. If NATO and the west are ready and willing to defend Ukraine (I suspect we are not), in which case a significant increase in our own presence would have made sense much earlier. If we are not willing, then the Ukrainians really should be told that and given an opportunity to negotiate or find their own way. I'm not sure that Cold War style standoffs via obscurity work the way they used to, there is just too much information available. The job is not to hide information or turn a blind eye to it, but rather to create as much or more activity and information as the opposing side.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  I suspect Ukraine was told quite clearly what they can expect, and as you say, it comes short of NATO boots on the ground, or wings in the sky. I'd say no one ever really wants to defend an ally, it's more of a pros-and-cons balance. For smaller countries, solidarity within NATO is building goodwill capital for when they need help (e.g. with allies following US into Afghanistan). For large countries, this is part of their empire-building: showing allies you support them makes them more favourably disposed to you. All-around, even for the US, it raises the bar for anyone contemplating an attack on a NATO member. Ukraine is a colleague but not an ally, so these don't really apply as much. That said, the West wants an independent, pro-western Ukraine (just not enough to fight a direct war with Russia over), and seems unusually resolute, so I wouldn't be surprised if some truly punitive actions were to be taken. Exclusion from SWIFT was one proposal, interfering with Russian energy exports would be catastrophic for Russia. The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter, but who knows; the US could open the tap with their gas, also if the whole thing gets delayed by a few months, it could be a very different perspective.
  - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
    > The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter The latter is very difficult for Germany in winter. Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures.
selivanovp 5y ago
In real news, not propaganda, Russian court didn't confirmed anything. The guy accused of bribery just declared that he was sending food to Russian army units in DPR/LPR. The same way he could've declared that he was feeding martians.
- ivan_gammel 5y ago
  This local newspaper does not qualify as "propaganda" website by all definitions, so I'm not sure why you are using this language and what kind of "real news" you are referring to. The original verdict of the court does not say "the guy declared". The language used there is describing recipients in Donbass as a fact important to the investigation, otherwise it would be a simple speculation irrelevant for the court decision and not worth mentioning there. Of course, there are ways to "explain" this publication as a mistake, misinterpretation as you already suggested or sabotage, but then it will just undermine the credibility of the supposedly objective and independent court.
  - madaxe_again 5y ago
    It seems to be a common view in Russia - I spoke with my wife’s grandmother earlier today, and she said she’d wait to hear the truth about it from Putin. Anything that disagrees with his pronouncements is “fascist propaganda”. She has R1 on in the background 24 hours a day. She isn’t unusual in this. It also isn’t a uniquely Russian problem, by a long shot, but the control of media by the state there exacerbates it substantially.
- fer 5y ago
  In Occam's razor news, there are not many reasons to detour 40 tons worth of military rations near a warzone where you're totally not involved.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  Shrug and deny, shrug and deny. Its beyond shadow of doubt Russia is funding rebels, if not directly leading them. Russian military equipment did just appear in local grocery store as black friday deal. Specnaz soldiers dying while on 'holidays'. Selfies of Russian troop with geotags in Ukraine. Nobody needs concrete evidence of what's know going on and who is behind it.
lnsru 5y ago
There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they are in endless war with Russia trying grab bigger and bigger chunk of the territory. Will NATO come for let’s say Latvia or Lithuania? I honestly don’t think so. Politics with all the politicians are really disgusting.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > Will NATO come for let’s say Latvia or Lithuania? I honestly don’t think so. I fear that you are right. And with Kaliningrad pretty much ideally positioned to pull another Donbass the stage is set for a lot of misery in Poland, Lithuania and possibly even Latvia and Estonia.
  - enkid 5y ago
    Ukraine is not part of NATO. The Western response is very different for Ukraine then it would be for a NATO country.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      We'll see about that. I wouldn't put too much stock in that if that country is Latvia, Lithuania or possibly even Poland. If it were Germany, France, Finland, Sweden or the UK it would likely be a different matter. Article 5 of the treaty is nice in principle, but those principles have never been put to a real test (in some circles this is called the 'Riga test' for a reason).
      - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
        > We'll see about that. I understand your pessimism but we are talking about the most powerful military organization on the planet. If for some strange reason they decide they give up protecting their borders, they might as well not exist. If Russia decides to invade Latvia and NATO does nothing, the whole pact might as well dissolve itself as it serves no function.
gritzko 5y ago
I observe the Ukrainian drama for many years. I strongly suspect that the actual game maybe the opposite of the picture in the media. Ukraine is looted to the bone and the economy is in downward spiral. The beneficiaries of the looting may need a war to write it all off. Meanwhile, if Putin takes Ukraine, he would shoulder a giant pile of debt, plus the responsibility for everything that happens. So the actual game might be like: how to make Putin take Ukraine.
- gritzko 5y ago
  OK guys, OK, please stop downvoting. Russia invades Ukraine because Russians hate freedom.
- gritzko 5y ago
  > External Debt in Ukraine increased to 125281 USD Million in the second quarter of 2021 from 123107 USD Million in the first quarter of 2021. source: National Bank of Ukraine This is comparable to the Soviet Union debt just before the collapse.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  You don't think Russia is looted to the bone and is not in a downward spiral? Just look at the tech sector there. Yandex is barely alive, and VK is now a property of Mail.Ru group. Outside of tech the economical situation prior to invasion was barely better than Ukraine's.
- artem247 5y ago
  Okay, have you ever been to Ukraine? What does it mean - looted to the bone? Why do you think Ukraine is that much different to Russia? Ukraine GDP is improving from 2016 till now, even with pandemic. Some industries, like software and agriculture are growing at a great rate. Yet, some guy who watches Russian TV is painting absurd picture Again, you don't know how external debt works, debt had nothing to do with collapse of Soviet Union, learn the history of your own country. Even then, Ukraine has lower debt to GDP ratio then Japan, Italy, Greece, United States, Canada, Spain, France, Belgium, United Kingdom, Israel... Something that Russians tell themselves every day - how everything is very bad in Ukraine, how it is going down. Sure. Oh, you observe the 'drame', with your all-seeing eye, fucking cockroach.
stevespang 5y ago
Facts: NATO was formed to protect European countries against Soviet aggression and occupation NATO never attacked any country. Russian propaganda would have you believe NATO is the evil one. The European countries below were all INVADED and occupied by the USSR, of which Moscow, Russia was the center of policy, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were occupied by the Red USSR Army in June 1940 Finland was invaded in 1940 Poland territories occupied since 1939 Northern Norway, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia were invaded in 1944 Austria invaded in 1945 Germany invaded in 1945 Yugoslavia invaded in 1951 Let the javelin's fly !
oneoff786 5y ago
Question to any geopolitical buffs. The one thing I learned about Russian history is that a great deal of its history was spent trying and never succeeding to get a warm water port in that area. Is that still a big deal?
- thejackgoode 5y ago
  Not sure what you mean by "never succeeding". I come from on of ports cities and shipyards built by Russian Empire in the south of present day Ukraine in the end of 18th century as a result of winning a war against Ottoman Empire. What they want now exactly is a different question, the answer most likely being in one man's head only. A revenge for loss in the Cold War, reclaiming the civilisational roots of "pan-slavic" territories, getting water back to Crimea, or any of the other hundreds of possible explanations. edit: not "Crimean war", but Russo-Turkish War (1787–1792)
  - sofixa 5y ago
    Warm water ports in the Black sea are severely restricted ( in military use) by the Montreux convention regulating the use of the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits.
- etrevino 5y ago
  They have warm water ports, but they don't have warm water ports with unfettered access to the ocean (because Constantinople blocked them). That's not what they're after here, though, because even after the breakup of the Soviet Union they held onto some ports on the Black Sea.
bserge 5y ago
Just can't help but laugh at how fantastically trash Russia is. They managed to completely piss off and alienate one of their oldest, best allies. Now Ukraine is 100% anti Russian, well at least the ethnic Ukrainians are, and that's not going away any time soon. They're also pro EU, but sadly this union is dragging their feet and providing empty promises, just like they do with Africa (while China actually funds them). --- It must be great serving in the Russian army, knowing that you're the fascists now. Great for morale. Look at them, isolated as hell, poor as dirt in one of the richest countries, fearing WW3. Pathetic garbage, the Germans might've had a point.
medo-bear 5y ago
so this article is in russian/ukranian (or another language in cyrillic) and i wonder, did all people liking or commenting here really read this? as a european i tend to be very skeptical of the US involvement in eastern europe. they seem to be exploiting the enmity of some eastern european nations toward russia for own economic gain and to stop russia selling its natural resources to EU. all the while being many many miles away from the danger zone. one has to wonder, how would people of US percieve the situation if Mexico decided to host Russian bases and missiles
- jacquesm 5y ago
  There is this thing called Google translate, it works surprisingly well for getting the gist of articles in languages that you can not read. I use it professionally (with some caveats) and it is quite impressive. It certainly isn't perfect and I wouldn't use it to write stuff but for reading it is ok.
- sofixa 5y ago
  The US thew a tantrum about Cuba, and still penalises them to this day, so you can easily see how hypocritical they are ( US missiles in Turkey are OK, but Soviet in Cuba weren't).
- NicuCalcea 5y ago
  If the US invaded another country just because it has Russian military bases, that would be wrong too. Ukraine doesn't have American bases and, even if it did, that's no reason for its neighbour to attack it. Countries have the right to determine their future without threats of occupation. PS: The article is in Russian. As an European, I've read it.
patriagreca 5y ago
[flagged]
wrp 5y ago
This is a bit confusing. It sounds like a lieutenant colonel demanded a bribe to not interfere with food delivery and a manager for the food supplier was convicted for paying it. Is that right?
- mahoro 5y ago
  Yes, it's correct and I'd say it's normal in Russia to pay to supervisory authorities to ignore violations. And yes the receiving part is also subject of prosecution but it can be ignored as well or be part of another court process. Recent death of 55 miners in Kuzbass shows how common this pattern is. All safety equipment in the mine has been disabled or shortcutted but all inspections considered that mine to be safe to use. UPD: obvious part of the story is the fact that 10-40% of that 130 million contract has been stolen by militaries and food suppliers.
throw8932894 5y ago
Perhaps you should read a bit more Russian sources. There is a Minsk peace agreement, Ukraine was supposed to stop fighting, organise elections, get new government and recognise autonomous regions. Instead it continued fighting. Russia has obligation to those two autonomous regions.
- curiousllama 5y ago
  For anyone else reading this, the Minsk Protocol (and, after it failed, Minsk 2) were ceasefire agreements from shortly after Russia invaded, signed 5+ years ago. They failed because they didn't do some pretty important things, like determine who controls what, so fighting continued along disputed territories. Hard to justify saying Ukraine should follow a treaty that Russia also isn't following, after Russia's surprise invasion.
roody15 5y ago
Interesting as I think we are witnessing a global shift in power to the East. China’s rise and the US’s fall from hegemony is starting to be felt in geopolitics. Russia (IMO)may simply be pressing ahead while it sees the US’s power currently diminished. The US withdraw of Afghanistan has not helped matters. It demonstrated that although the US military’s budget is 10 times more than its closest rival, this expense does not equal 10 times a more powerful army. Instead we have shown our current military structure is overly bureaucratic and inefficient. Until the US can restructure and gets it house in a bit better order I think we may see Russia continue to press forward in the short term.
- Jcowell 5y ago
  It’s not a matter of power but a matter of morals I think. The U.S has every ability annihilate any enemy but the collateral damage to do so restricts it heavily. If the goal of the US was straight up imperialism/colonialism it would be a very different story.
  - trasz 5y ago
    It’s not about morals - nobody in US seems to care about the million people they killed in Middle East - it’s about dead American soldiers looking bad in the TV.
    - torstenvl 5y ago
      False statements don't help public discussion. It is not true that the U.S. killed a million people in the Middle East. And this is not some sophistic semantic argument either, as it remains not true when you include Afghanistan. The number of civilian casualties is not even close. It is also not true that the U.S. doesn't care about civilian casualties. The U.S., U.K., and Australia are the only countries I know that put lawyers in air strike operations cells to ensure the law of armed conflict is followed. The French red card holders receive training but don't tend to be lawyers, believe similar is true for Germans and Italians. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who takes this obligation more seriously than the U.S. and closest allies.
mszcz 5y ago
The talk about the impending russian invasion of Ukraine has been on for a while. Since I'm based in Poland, I'm trying to get as much information as possible, as this makes me nervous and will probably affect me in some ways. The one thing I'm wondering is, in the horrible event of invasion of Ukraine, is how it's going to affect the markets and how to protect what little wealth I've got saved up. Anyone got any ideas on that? I do know that this sounds a little tone deaf but it's what I worry about, sorry.
- nradov 5y ago
  As a long term investor, geographic diversification is always a good idea. For example the Vanguard Total World Stock ETF (VT) can be a good way to hedge against risks in Poland. You might not be able to purchase VT specifically, but you probably have access to something similar. https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/overview/VT https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/overview/VT
- ivan_gammel 5y ago
  The invasion already happened according to the article, it's just Russia lost plausible deniability for it with this document. Full scale invasion to defeat Ukrainian government is very unlikely: Russian military prefers information wars to the offline operations now and makes them part of the strategy. The news about troops deployed on the border are intended to create sense of danger and uncertainty that can be used in the negotiations process to strengthen their position. Public in Russia is now very critical of the government and will not tolerate a new big war: this is the main constraining factor and probably the only one that is really taken into account.
  - baud147258 5y ago
    > Full scale invasion to defeat Ukrainian government is very unlikely I don't think that Russia would be even interested to take control of the rest of Ukraine, as the current situation seems to fit their goals: they're keeping control over Crimea, so they're keeping their access to the sea there. And with the Donbass situation, Ukraine won't join NATO anytime soon, so they won't see US bases and missiles being installed next to their borders
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fdjfj3iugl1 5y ago
My ex gf is Russian / Ukrainian; While dating I asked her about this. Basically she said: Ukraine is run by mobsters and you can’t build anything without their involvement and they’ll make sure it’s only barely worth your while. The Russians in Ukraine just want to swap Ukrainian mobsters for Russian mobsters who they believe be fairer to them. As for Belarus she tells me: Lukashenko is often asked if he would reunite with Russia; he responds by saying that’ll be great as he will then lead all of Russia. So it’s actually Lukashenko that is putting off reunification. It’s my opinion that if the West really wanted to end the war in Ukraine they would need to help ending the mobsterism there that’s driving the Russian Ukrainians into Russian hands. Instead it seems that the West are instead supporting these same mobsters as a way of attacking Russia and the poor Ukrainians are caught in the middle of it.
hourislate 5y ago
For anyone who thinks Europe can challenge Russia on the battle field ...... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some-munitions-in-libya/2011/04/15/AF3O7ElD_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some... This doesn't mean things can't change but currently Russia could roll over Europe in a week unless the USA intervenes.
- everybodyknows 5y ago
  That article is ten years old.
  - hourislate 5y ago
    Yeah and what makes you think NATO in Europe is any different? They still under spend. I'm not a supporter of Russian aggression but the reality is Europe is a joke when it comes to NATO. The only folks today that are fighting for Western Ideals are the Ukrainians and the German cucks block any support anyone wants to give them.
thedudeabides5 5y ago
We should give Russia Crimea and the water it needs to feed it in order to prevent Russia from siding with China on Taiwan, which we cannot afford to lose.
Mikeb85 5y ago
This source is pretty shit and doesn't really prove anything. That being said, Ukraine just flexes during it's traditional winter gas-price feud with Russia to try negotiate a better price. It doesn't really want Donbass nor Crimea back; those regions always were too pro-Russian. Without them, Ukraine's politics have shifted much further west. But Ukraine needs to remind the west of the Russia boogeyman to get resources from the EU, while threatening Russia to get concessions from them.
brokenmachine 5y ago
I have nothing to add but just wanted to say that I'm pleasantly surprised how knowledgeable everyone here is on world politics, especially for a tech site.
timka 5y ago
What's important is not Ukraine itself but that global monetary system is restructuring and action in Ukraine only serves the purpose of emergency to renounce someones obligations. Russia doesn't want that. Russia doesn't need another Afghanistan war which was the last nail in the USSR's coffin. NATO is over as US is leaving it. I assure you Biden has far more serious issues at home like ~25% PPI (not the end product official number, but for the whole chain) which has to be somehow solved before May for him to look good during the elections in November. Also, he has to do something with military forces at home. I mean he doesn't give a single shit about Ukraine. The US don't need Ukraine anymore as a weapon against Russia and what will happen has already been more or less settled among the parties presented by Putin, Biden, Modi and Xi. Now Ukraine absolutely can't exist as an independent state even purely economically. They used to have really great start conditions 30 years ago but they fucked it up really badly. But even if they still had that they'd simply not have enough markets to sell their stuff. EU will obviously not support them. Also there are actually very different parts of Ukraine. Russia doesn't need in any way toxic Galicia where anti-Russian movement has been growing for ages (literally). Having such people for Russia would be a great PITA. On the other hand LNR and DNR are Russian, for instance. Now taking all that into account just stop talking about Ukraine and find something that really matters.

291 points by ivan_gammel 5y ago

schleck8 5y ago

They are on vacation only, nothing to see here.

PickledHotdog 5y ago
The InTourist system still alive and well!

reducesuffering 5y ago

From Google Translate: 'A column of 70 vehicles with food is estimated at RUB130 million Rostov court published a verdict confirming the presence of the Russian military in Donbass The Kirovsky District Court of Rostov-on-Don issued a verdict in November in a case of corruption in the supply of food, which indirectly confirms the presence of the Russian military in Donbas, where the war is going on. The document was published on the website of the court. The defendant in the case was the deputy regional manager for military nutrition of one of the commercial companies. He was found guilty of bribing the head of the Center for State Sanitary and Epidemiological Supervision of the Southern Military District with the rank of lieutenant colonel. It follows from the verdict that the official demanded 90 thousand rubles a month in order not to interfere with the supply of food to the Russian military. And we are talking about the military, who are in the east of Ukraine. “His responsibilities included organizing and fulfilling obligations for the purchase and sale of food and the creation of the necessary stock in the warehouse <...> The food was intended to be sent to military units of the RF Armed Forces deployed on the territory of the DPR and LPR,” the case file says. According to the testimony of the accused, food supplies to the DPR and LPR were carried out every two weeks. For this, a column of "more than 70 vehicles with a carrying capacity of about 40 tons and a total volume of more than 1300 tons" was formed. Among the products were flour, canned food, fresh vegetables. “The total cost of food for one delivery was more than 130 million rubles,” the verdict says. According to various estimates, one such delivery is enough to feed about 25 thousand people. The defendant also said that before the shipment of the cargo, the food was checked by a "Russian in the rank of major", and on the territory of Donbass the trucks were "under the protection of the receiving party." The Kremlin denies the presence of the Russian military in the DPR and LPR.'

jacquesm 5y ago

As if there was any doubt about this. Putin isn't fooling anybody except for maybe a very gullible fraction of the Russian citizens. But even there most people are quite aware of what the score is.

jl6 5y ago
The top power move is to lie, and to know your lie will be obvious, and to know that there is nothing anyone can do about it.
necovek 5y ago
Of course: it's not like anything will change even with proof. In conflicts like these, it's always people in the area that'll suffer most.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  And those that happen to overfly that area.

necovek 5y ago

The text of the ruling was pulled from the Russian court site, but you can still verify it says the same stuff by hitting the Internet Archive from yesterday: https://web.archive.org/web/20211215174957/https://kirovsky--ros.sudrf.ru/modules.php?name=sud_delo&srv_num=1&name_op=doc&number=213117823&delo_id=1540006&new=0&text_number=1 https://web.archive.org/web/20211215174957/https://kirovsky-...

mkl 5y ago
Clickable: https://web.archive.org/web/20211215174957/https://kirovsky--ros.sudrf.ru/modules.php?name=sud_delo&srv_num=1&name_op=doc&number=213117823&delo_id=1540006&new=0&text_number=1 https://web.archive.org/web/20211215174957/https://kirovsky-...
- necovek 5y ago
  Fixed it as well, thanks :)

w_t_payne 5y ago

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

woodpanel 5y ago
By painting your domestic voices of dissent as "Russian Assets" you're the closest thing next to an actual Russian Asset
- w_t_payne 5y ago
  They stop being mere 'domestic voices of dissent' once they start threatening my family.
BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
> attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. Ukraine makes this easy for him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
- w_t_payne 5y ago
  Clearly pretty vile, indefensible stuff, and yet it's Putin who is waging war against us.
  - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
    Realpolitik: it doesn't matter who started it. If Ukraine wants western assistance in this fight, they should stop incorporating neo-nazi militias into their national guard.
    - w_t_payne 5y ago
      I don't care who started it. I'm focused on direct threats to myself and my family.

jmacd 5y ago

I think we in the west need something like a 'doctrine of the foregone conclusion'. Often things are very obvious, even notorious, but because we do not want to face the eventuality, we do things like negotiate or perseverate our denials all while the situation escalates. If NATO and the west are ready and willing to defend Ukraine (I suspect we are not), in which case a significant increase in our own presence would have made sense much earlier. If we are not willing, then the Ukrainians really should be told that and given an opportunity to negotiate or find their own way. I'm not sure that Cold War style standoffs via obscurity work the way they used to, there is just too much information available. The job is not to hide information or turn a blind eye to it, but rather to create as much or more activity and information as the opposing side.

rich_sasha 5y ago
I suspect Ukraine was told quite clearly what they can expect, and as you say, it comes short of NATO boots on the ground, or wings in the sky. I'd say no one ever really wants to defend an ally, it's more of a pros-and-cons balance. For smaller countries, solidarity within NATO is building goodwill capital for when they need help (e.g. with allies following US into Afghanistan). For large countries, this is part of their empire-building: showing allies you support them makes them more favourably disposed to you. All-around, even for the US, it raises the bar for anyone contemplating an attack on a NATO member. Ukraine is a colleague but not an ally, so these don't really apply as much. That said, the West wants an independent, pro-western Ukraine (just not enough to fight a direct war with Russia over), and seems unusually resolute, so I wouldn't be surprised if some truly punitive actions were to be taken. Exclusion from SWIFT was one proposal, interfering with Russian energy exports would be catastrophic for Russia. The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter, but who knows; the US could open the tap with their gas, also if the whole thing gets delayed by a few months, it could be a very different perspective.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  > The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter The latter is very difficult for Germany in winter. Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures.

selivanovp 5y ago

In real news, not propaganda, Russian court didn't confirmed anything. The guy accused of bribery just declared that he was sending food to Russian army units in DPR/LPR. The same way he could've declared that he was feeding martians.

ivan_gammel 5y ago
This local newspaper does not qualify as "propaganda" website by all definitions, so I'm not sure why you are using this language and what kind of "real news" you are referring to. The original verdict of the court does not say "the guy declared". The language used there is describing recipients in Donbass as a fact important to the investigation, otherwise it would be a simple speculation irrelevant for the court decision and not worth mentioning there. Of course, there are ways to "explain" this publication as a mistake, misinterpretation as you already suggested or sabotage, but then it will just undermine the credibility of the supposedly objective and independent court.
- madaxe_again 5y ago
  It seems to be a common view in Russia - I spoke with my wife’s grandmother earlier today, and she said she’d wait to hear the truth about it from Putin. Anything that disagrees with his pronouncements is “fascist propaganda”. She has R1 on in the background 24 hours a day. She isn’t unusual in this. It also isn’t a uniquely Russian problem, by a long shot, but the control of media by the state there exacerbates it substantially.
fer 5y ago
In Occam's razor news, there are not many reasons to detour 40 tons worth of military rations near a warzone where you're totally not involved.
me_me_me 5y ago
Shrug and deny, shrug and deny. Its beyond shadow of doubt Russia is funding rebels, if not directly leading them. Russian military equipment did just appear in local grocery store as black friday deal. Specnaz soldiers dying while on 'holidays'. Selfies of Russian troop with geotags in Ukraine. Nobody needs concrete evidence of what's know going on and who is behind it.

lnsru 5y ago

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they are in endless war with Russia trying grab bigger and bigger chunk of the territory. Will NATO come for let’s say Latvia or Lithuania? I honestly don’t think so. Politics with all the politicians are really disgusting.

jacquesm 5y ago
> Will NATO come for let’s say Latvia or Lithuania? I honestly don’t think so. I fear that you are right. And with Kaliningrad pretty much ideally positioned to pull another Donbass the stage is set for a lot of misery in Poland, Lithuania and possibly even Latvia and Estonia.
- enkid 5y ago
  Ukraine is not part of NATO. The Western response is very different for Ukraine then it would be for a NATO country.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    We'll see about that. I wouldn't put too much stock in that if that country is Latvia, Lithuania or possibly even Poland. If it were Germany, France, Finland, Sweden or the UK it would likely be a different matter. Article 5 of the treaty is nice in principle, but those principles have never been put to a real test (in some circles this is called the 'Riga test' for a reason).
    - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
      > We'll see about that. I understand your pessimism but we are talking about the most powerful military organization on the planet. If for some strange reason they decide they give up protecting their borders, they might as well not exist. If Russia decides to invade Latvia and NATO does nothing, the whole pact might as well dissolve itself as it serves no function.

gritzko 5y ago

I observe the Ukrainian drama for many years. I strongly suspect that the actual game maybe the opposite of the picture in the media. Ukraine is looted to the bone and the economy is in downward spiral. The beneficiaries of the looting may need a war to write it all off. Meanwhile, if Putin takes Ukraine, he would shoulder a giant pile of debt, plus the responsibility for everything that happens. So the actual game might be like: how to make Putin take Ukraine.

gritzko 5y ago
OK guys, OK, please stop downvoting. Russia invades Ukraine because Russians hate freedom.
gritzko 5y ago
> External Debt in Ukraine increased to 125281 USD Million in the second quarter of 2021 from 123107 USD Million in the first quarter of 2021. source: National Bank of Ukraine This is comparable to the Soviet Union debt just before the collapse.
lostmsu 5y ago
You don't think Russia is looted to the bone and is not in a downward spiral? Just look at the tech sector there. Yandex is barely alive, and VK is now a property of Mail.Ru group. Outside of tech the economical situation prior to invasion was barely better than Ukraine's.
artem247 5y ago
Okay, have you ever been to Ukraine? What does it mean - looted to the bone? Why do you think Ukraine is that much different to Russia? Ukraine GDP is improving from 2016 till now, even with pandemic. Some industries, like software and agriculture are growing at a great rate. Yet, some guy who watches Russian TV is painting absurd picture Again, you don't know how external debt works, debt had nothing to do with collapse of Soviet Union, learn the history of your own country. Even then, Ukraine has lower debt to GDP ratio then Japan, Italy, Greece, United States, Canada, Spain, France, Belgium, United Kingdom, Israel... Something that Russians tell themselves every day - how everything is very bad in Ukraine, how it is going down. Sure. Oh, you observe the 'drame', with your all-seeing eye, fucking cockroach.

stevespang 5y ago

Facts: NATO was formed to protect European countries against Soviet aggression and occupation NATO never attacked any country. Russian propaganda would have you believe NATO is the evil one. The European countries below were all INVADED and occupied by the USSR, of which Moscow, Russia was the center of policy, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were occupied by the Red USSR Army in June 1940 Finland was invaded in 1940 Poland territories occupied since 1939 Northern Norway, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia were invaded in 1944 Austria invaded in 1945 Germany invaded in 1945 Yugoslavia invaded in 1951 Let the javelin's fly !

oneoff786 5y ago

Question to any geopolitical buffs. The one thing I learned about Russian history is that a great deal of its history was spent trying and never succeeding to get a warm water port in that area. Is that still a big deal?

thejackgoode 5y ago
Not sure what you mean by "never succeeding". I come from on of ports cities and shipyards built by Russian Empire in the south of present day Ukraine in the end of 18th century as a result of winning a war against Ottoman Empire. What they want now exactly is a different question, the answer most likely being in one man's head only. A revenge for loss in the Cold War, reclaiming the civilisational roots of "pan-slavic" territories, getting water back to Crimea, or any of the other hundreds of possible explanations. edit: not "Crimean war", but Russo-Turkish War (1787–1792)
- sofixa 5y ago
  Warm water ports in the Black sea are severely restricted ( in military use) by the Montreux convention regulating the use of the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits.
etrevino 5y ago
They have warm water ports, but they don't have warm water ports with unfettered access to the ocean (because Constantinople blocked them). That's not what they're after here, though, because even after the breakup of the Soviet Union they held onto some ports on the Black Sea.

bserge 5y ago

Just can't help but laugh at how fantastically trash Russia is. They managed to completely piss off and alienate one of their oldest, best allies. Now Ukraine is 100% anti Russian, well at least the ethnic Ukrainians are, and that's not going away any time soon. They're also pro EU, but sadly this union is dragging their feet and providing empty promises, just like they do with Africa (while China actually funds them). --- It must be great serving in the Russian army, knowing that you're the fascists now. Great for morale. Look at them, isolated as hell, poor as dirt in one of the richest countries, fearing WW3. Pathetic garbage, the Germans might've had a point.

medo-bear 5y ago

so this article is in russian/ukranian (or another language in cyrillic) and i wonder, did all people liking or commenting here really read this? as a european i tend to be very skeptical of the US involvement in eastern europe. they seem to be exploiting the enmity of some eastern european nations toward russia for own economic gain and to stop russia selling its natural resources to EU. all the while being many many miles away from the danger zone. one has to wonder, how would people of US percieve the situation if Mexico decided to host Russian bases and missiles

jacquesm 5y ago
There is this thing called Google translate, it works surprisingly well for getting the gist of articles in languages that you can not read. I use it professionally (with some caveats) and it is quite impressive. It certainly isn't perfect and I wouldn't use it to write stuff but for reading it is ok.
sofixa 5y ago
The US thew a tantrum about Cuba, and still penalises them to this day, so you can easily see how hypocritical they are ( US missiles in Turkey are OK, but Soviet in Cuba weren't).
NicuCalcea 5y ago
If the US invaded another country just because it has Russian military bases, that would be wrong too. Ukraine doesn't have American bases and, even if it did, that's no reason for its neighbour to attack it. Countries have the right to determine their future without threats of occupation. PS: The article is in Russian. As an European, I've read it.

patriagreca 5y ago

[flagged]

wrp 5y ago

This is a bit confusing. It sounds like a lieutenant colonel demanded a bribe to not interfere with food delivery and a manager for the food supplier was convicted for paying it. Is that right?

mahoro 5y ago
Yes, it's correct and I'd say it's normal in Russia to pay to supervisory authorities to ignore violations. And yes the receiving part is also subject of prosecution but it can be ignored as well or be part of another court process. Recent death of 55 miners in Kuzbass shows how common this pattern is. All safety equipment in the mine has been disabled or shortcutted but all inspections considered that mine to be safe to use. UPD: obvious part of the story is the fact that 10-40% of that 130 million contract has been stolen by militaries and food suppliers.

throw8932894 5y ago

Perhaps you should read a bit more Russian sources. There is a Minsk peace agreement, Ukraine was supposed to stop fighting, organise elections, get new government and recognise autonomous regions. Instead it continued fighting. Russia has obligation to those two autonomous regions.

curiousllama 5y ago
For anyone else reading this, the Minsk Protocol (and, after it failed, Minsk 2) were ceasefire agreements from shortly after Russia invaded, signed 5+ years ago. They failed because they didn't do some pretty important things, like determine who controls what, so fighting continued along disputed territories. Hard to justify saying Ukraine should follow a treaty that Russia also isn't following, after Russia's surprise invasion.

roody15 5y ago

Interesting as I think we are witnessing a global shift in power to the East. China’s rise and the US’s fall from hegemony is starting to be felt in geopolitics. Russia (IMO)may simply be pressing ahead while it sees the US’s power currently diminished. The US withdraw of Afghanistan has not helped matters. It demonstrated that although the US military’s budget is 10 times more than its closest rival, this expense does not equal 10 times a more powerful army. Instead we have shown our current military structure is overly bureaucratic and inefficient. Until the US can restructure and gets it house in a bit better order I think we may see Russia continue to press forward in the short term.

Jcowell 5y ago
It’s not a matter of power but a matter of morals I think. The U.S has every ability annihilate any enemy but the collateral damage to do so restricts it heavily. If the goal of the US was straight up imperialism/colonialism it would be a very different story.
- trasz 5y ago
  It’s not about morals - nobody in US seems to care about the million people they killed in Middle East - it’s about dead American soldiers looking bad in the TV.
  - torstenvl 5y ago
    False statements don't help public discussion. It is not true that the U.S. killed a million people in the Middle East. And this is not some sophistic semantic argument either, as it remains not true when you include Afghanistan. The number of civilian casualties is not even close. It is also not true that the U.S. doesn't care about civilian casualties. The U.S., U.K., and Australia are the only countries I know that put lawyers in air strike operations cells to ensure the law of armed conflict is followed. The French red card holders receive training but don't tend to be lawyers, believe similar is true for Germans and Italians. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who takes this obligation more seriously than the U.S. and closest allies.

mszcz 5y ago

The talk about the impending russian invasion of Ukraine has been on for a while. Since I'm based in Poland, I'm trying to get as much information as possible, as this makes me nervous and will probably affect me in some ways. The one thing I'm wondering is, in the horrible event of invasion of Ukraine, is how it's going to affect the markets and how to protect what little wealth I've got saved up. Anyone got any ideas on that? I do know that this sounds a little tone deaf but it's what I worry about, sorry.

nradov 5y ago
As a long term investor, geographic diversification is always a good idea. For example the Vanguard Total World Stock ETF (VT) can be a good way to hedge against risks in Poland. You might not be able to purchase VT specifically, but you probably have access to something similar. https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/overview/VT https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/overview/VT
ivan_gammel 5y ago
The invasion already happened according to the article, it's just Russia lost plausible deniability for it with this document. Full scale invasion to defeat Ukrainian government is very unlikely: Russian military prefers information wars to the offline operations now and makes them part of the strategy. The news about troops deployed on the border are intended to create sense of danger and uncertainty that can be used in the negotiations process to strengthen their position. Public in Russia is now very critical of the government and will not tolerate a new big war: this is the main constraining factor and probably the only one that is really taken into account.
- baud147258 5y ago
  > Full scale invasion to defeat Ukrainian government is very unlikely I don't think that Russia would be even interested to take control of the rest of Ukraine, as the current situation seems to fit their goals: they're keeping control over Crimea, so they're keeping their access to the sea there. And with the Donbass situation, Ukraine won't join NATO anytime soon, so they won't see US bases and missiles being installed next to their borders

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fdjfj3iugl1 5y ago

My ex gf is Russian / Ukrainian; While dating I asked her about this. Basically she said: Ukraine is run by mobsters and you can’t build anything without their involvement and they’ll make sure it’s only barely worth your while. The Russians in Ukraine just want to swap Ukrainian mobsters for Russian mobsters who they believe be fairer to them. As for Belarus she tells me: Lukashenko is often asked if he would reunite with Russia; he responds by saying that’ll be great as he will then lead all of Russia. So it’s actually Lukashenko that is putting off reunification. It’s my opinion that if the West really wanted to end the war in Ukraine they would need to help ending the mobsterism there that’s driving the Russian Ukrainians into Russian hands. Instead it seems that the West are instead supporting these same mobsters as a way of attacking Russia and the poor Ukrainians are caught in the middle of it.

hourislate 5y ago

For anyone who thinks Europe can challenge Russia on the battle field ...... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some-munitions-in-libya/2011/04/15/AF3O7ElD_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some... This doesn't mean things can't change but currently Russia could roll over Europe in a week unless the USA intervenes.

everybodyknows 5y ago
That article is ten years old.
- hourislate 5y ago
  Yeah and what makes you think NATO in Europe is any different? They still under spend. I'm not a supporter of Russian aggression but the reality is Europe is a joke when it comes to NATO. The only folks today that are fighting for Western Ideals are the Ukrainians and the German cucks block any support anyone wants to give them.

thedudeabides5 5y ago

We should give Russia Crimea and the water it needs to feed it in order to prevent Russia from siding with China on Taiwan, which we cannot afford to lose.

Mikeb85 5y ago

This source is pretty shit and doesn't really prove anything. That being said, Ukraine just flexes during it's traditional winter gas-price feud with Russia to try negotiate a better price. It doesn't really want Donbass nor Crimea back; those regions always were too pro-Russian. Without them, Ukraine's politics have shifted much further west. But Ukraine needs to remind the west of the Russia boogeyman to get resources from the EU, while threatening Russia to get concessions from them.

brokenmachine 5y ago

I have nothing to add but just wanted to say that I'm pleasantly surprised how knowledgeable everyone here is on world politics, especially for a tech site.

timka 5y ago

What's important is not Ukraine itself but that global monetary system is restructuring and action in Ukraine only serves the purpose of emergency to renounce someones obligations. Russia doesn't want that. Russia doesn't need another Afghanistan war which was the last nail in the USSR's coffin. NATO is over as US is leaving it. I assure you Biden has far more serious issues at home like ~25% PPI (not the end product official number, but for the whole chain) which has to be somehow solved before May for him to look good during the elections in November. Also, he has to do something with military forces at home. I mean he doesn't give a single shit about Ukraine. The US don't need Ukraine anymore as a weapon against Russia and what will happen has already been more or less settled among the parties presented by Putin, Biden, Modi and Xi. Now Ukraine absolutely can't exist as an independent state even purely economically. They used to have really great start conditions 30 years ago but they fucked it up really badly. But even if they still had that they'd simply not have enough markets to sell their stuff. EU will obviously not support them. Also there are actually very different parts of Ukraine. Russia doesn't need in any way toxic Galicia where anti-Russian movement has been growing for ages (literally). Having such people for Russia would be a great PITA. On the other hand LNR and DNR are Russian, for instance. Now taking all that into account just stop talking about Ukraine and find something that really matters.