9 ms·

I don't care. I already switched my business to Linux Boxes. The last Mac OS in use is Catalina. All of my critical software runs under Linux. Figma is in the b

by nbzso 5y ago

I don't care. I already switched my business to Linux Boxes. The last Mac OS in use is Catalina. All of my critical software runs under Linux. Figma is in the browser. Affinity Designer is running perfectly under Isolated Windows VM. If I ever use Apple computer again it will be with Linux. After 20+ years of using Apple computers I don't find them interesting enough to risk my data and be scanned, categorized and processed by third party criteria. Think different. Use Linux.

donohoe 5y ago
And your phone is what? If it’s an Android it’s probable got something similar in place. On an iPhone all you must to use disable iCloud sync to avoid CSAM
- bubblethink 5y ago
  This is such a silly strawman. First, it is not related to the parent's point at all. Second, it is perfectly possible to run AOSP based OSes not tied to google.
  - donohoe 5y ago
    I disagree. >> First, it is not related to the parent's point at all The post was about switching away computers. My (badly implied) point was, a lot of the effort is wasted unless if you still use an Apple iPhone... If you skip using an iPhone, then fine, but the other options out there are likely worse. >> Second, it is perfectly possible to run AOSP based OSes not tied to google You can build your own Google-free etc version but again most people won't because of the effort and the need to redo for updates again and again. The Parent post author probably has the means to do it, but it's another endless task they have to stay on. All other options (to my limited knowledge - plz share if you know more) mean compromises in apps, and functionality - unless you're happy to spend hours each wee/month troubleshooting and setting up workaround and working with specific compatible hardware. It can be done. But how much of your life will you want to spend on that? Reading other comments maybe it is a solved problem now - it hadn't been last time I tried. If I assumed too much from the parent post then sorry.
    - bigyellow 5y ago
      LineageOS has near-nightly binary releases, you don't need to build or "redo" anything to keep up to date, other than a 5-10 minute update over adb about once a week.
    - bubblethink 5y ago
      I agree that most of this requires conscious effort. I think I was needlessly harsh too. My point was that if someone is making the conscious effort of changing their devices/OSes etc., then they have shown the interest and ability, and at least for them, there are reasonable options (i.e., not just theoretical ones).
- SXX 5y ago
  Android have plenty of open source distributions without such features. They don't save you from baseband backdoor, but at least OS itself isn't your enemy.
- nbzso 5y ago
  Basic phone and iPhone SE (the old version) for banking apps. Never used iCloud. All my backups are done locally. It is not only about CSAM. CSAM was the last straw. Before this was that: echo 127.0.0.1 ocsp.apple.com | sudo tee -a /etc/hosts
  - threeseed 5y ago
    In your situation then CSAM scanning would never have been an issue. It only applies when you have iCloud Photo Library enabled.
    - nbzso 5y ago
      It is not about the implementation either. It is about hostile attack towards user privacy after years of advertising: What Happens on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone. Privacy is King. Privacy. That's iPhone.
      - nicce 5y ago
        The most people have misunderstood how this system actually worked. I read every paper carefully, and this was very innovative system to protect your privacy IF we compare to existing CSAM solutions. Of course the best option is to not scan at all, but that is not really option. Only those pictures which were about to be uploaded iCloud, would have been scanned, and Apple would get information about image contents only if it is flagged. The phone is blackbox and it scans your files anyway all the time, sending metadata to Apple e.g. because of the spotlight feature and photo albums, or simply syncing your data to cloud. There is massive AI behind that spotlight feature. Nothing would have changed, just the different kind of information would have been flagged, but this time encrypted. The major improvement was E2EE like system for Photos. Currently they are not E2E encrypted in Cloud. They are plaintext for Apple. iOS 15 beta had also encryption for backups, but it never reached public reach after CSAM was delayed. So we lost yet another feature which would have increased the privacy. "But it happens in my device", is not really valid argument since most people don't understand what happens in their devices in the first hand. Even AV engines sends all your data to cloud, and you can't opt out in most of the cases and it is for every file.
- fsflover 5y ago
  How about GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone? Not well polished yet but running desktop OS with all its possibilities.
  - mattl 5y ago
    Those phones are in no way usable as day to day phones.
theplumber 5y ago
What about the mobile OS?
- bigyellow 5y ago
  Not OP, but check out LineageOS without Play Services.
coldtea 5y ago
- hu3 5y ago
  Please don't post shallow dismissals. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments
  - arbitrage 5y ago
    Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. Eschew flamebait. Please don't complain about tangential annoyances. Please don't post shallow dismissals. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments
    - DonHopkins 5y ago
      Beautiful is better than ugly. Explicit is better than implicit. Simple is better than complex. Complex is better than complicated. Flat is better than nested. Sparse is better than dense. Readability counts. Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. Although practicality beats purity. Errors should never pass silently. Unless explicitly silenced. In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch. Now is better than never. Although never is often better than right now. If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea. Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those! https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ Take heart in the bedeepening gloom That your dog is finally getting enough cheese. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6ugTmCYMk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6ugTmCYMk
  - coldtea 5y ago
    How is not the parent comment a shallow reaction to the post, which was my point? It was the usual empty response that gets the top comment post and sets the tone for the thread.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zepto 5y ago
Did you switch because of the proposed CSAM detector?
- Syonyk 5y ago
  I can't speak to the person you're asking, but I very much have eliminated Apple products from my daily use as a result of CSAM - though it was on top of a range of other things (mostly China related) that told me I can no longer really trust Apple. I've scrapped out a perfectly good (and exceedingly nice to use) M1 Mini, I no longer use a 2015 MBP, I've shut down my iPhone (not quite for good, I still have to figure out how to move my Signal root of identity off it), and I no longer use an iPad for work reference PDFs. I've replaced these with far less functional "But I'm making them work" sort of devices. An AT&T Flip IV for phone stuff (KaiOS, handles basic calls and texts, and not much else, though it does have GPS and maps, and can do email if you let it), a Kobo Elipsa + KOReader for PDF support, and I've spent a good bit of time tweaking a PineBook Pro into my daily driver laptop. The general view I have of Apple at this point is, "Oh, we know what kind of company you are, now we're just haggling over details."[0] To whine about Apple doing stuff and continue to use them says, "Yes, it's important enough to complain about online, but not important enough to alter how I use their products - therefore, not really important at all." [0]: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/03/07/haggling/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/03/07/haggling/
  - hef19898 5y ago
    It's funny, the Apple CSAM issue got me to de-google and de-MS as much as possible. I didn't use Apple, but I figured the others won't be any better. That worked very well in private life, professionally it is Windows and will be for the foreseeable future. That leaves Windows machines for the kids to run MS Office and Teams for school.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > I've scrapped out a perfectly good (and exceedingly nice to use) M1 Mini Given that the CSAM issue turns out to be moot, I assume you feel regret at doing this.
Silhouette 5y ago
Affinity Designer is running perfectly under Isolated Windows VM. Share more details about how you set that up please? Good graphics software, or the relative lack of it, is one of the few things still holding us back from shifting several daily use machines to Linux. Affinity would be OK for that but the only reports we found suggested it wasn't happy running virtually and performance was poor.
- nbzso 5y ago
  I switched my office workflow to Manjaro. https://leduccc.medium.com/improving-the-performance-of-a-windows-10-guest-on-qemu-a5b3f54d9cf5 https://leduccc.medium.com/improving-the-performance-of-a-wi... https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF#Isolating_pinned_CPUs https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF#Is...
kf6nux 5y ago
> I don't care. I [switched to Linux] That's short-sighted and self-centered. You don't care about whether or not other people's rights are violated? You don't see how normalizing rights violations could lead to downstream effects on you?
- zarzavat 5y ago
  The truth is that nobody has a right to use Apple products. It's good that Apple listens to criticism but if they had decided to steamroller this through, they would have been within their rights to do so.
- nbzso 5y ago
  Please, don't insult me and judge me so quickly. Read all my responses. You can check my posts back in time (If you wish). The whole reason for my HN post activity (reading in the shadows from 2008-10) is CSAM. In the beginning of this issue nobody cared and tons of Apple fanboys down-voted every possible negative reaction. Apple is industry leader. Everyone will copy what they create. You can read "I don't care" as an emotional reaction of an individual who had invested tons of money in Apple, used Apple products and evangelized thousands of friends and customers. Only to realize that The Beauty is actually The Beast.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  We do care. However, what can we do about it? Can we somehow make the billion dollar corporation do what we want? Unlikely. Better to use systems that we actually control so that we don't have to suffer their tyranny.
aunty_helen 5y ago
Hey I just want to let you know that you're not alone and there are other sane people out there that aren't just grumbling but keeping on with the boiling frog. Even though the new mbps look really nice, I've got a Framework laptop sitting at home that I'm in the process of migrating to (that's $4k of MBP max that apple have missed out on). And early next year, I'm moving off the iphone platform onto probably a pixel and switching the OS to something like Graphine. It's going to be fun and experimental. I'm also looking to hire some developers next year, provided laptops will be Linux too.
- nbzso 5y ago
  My business operation is small. I wisely postponed buying new computers for the office. I admit that M1 chips were the primary target. Apple lost from my business north of 80k euros, now redirected towards Lenovo ThinkPad X1's and custom build PC's.

by nbzso 5y ago

donohoe 5y ago

And your phone is what? If it’s an Android it’s probable got something similar in place. On an iPhone all you must to use disable iCloud sync to avoid CSAM

bubblethink 5y ago
This is such a silly strawman. First, it is not related to the parent's point at all. Second, it is perfectly possible to run AOSP based OSes not tied to google.
- donohoe 5y ago
  I disagree. >> First, it is not related to the parent's point at all The post was about switching away computers. My (badly implied) point was, a lot of the effort is wasted unless if you still use an Apple iPhone... If you skip using an iPhone, then fine, but the other options out there are likely worse. >> Second, it is perfectly possible to run AOSP based OSes not tied to google You can build your own Google-free etc version but again most people won't because of the effort and the need to redo for updates again and again. The Parent post author probably has the means to do it, but it's another endless task they have to stay on. All other options (to my limited knowledge - plz share if you know more) mean compromises in apps, and functionality - unless you're happy to spend hours each wee/month troubleshooting and setting up workaround and working with specific compatible hardware. It can be done. But how much of your life will you want to spend on that? Reading other comments maybe it is a solved problem now - it hadn't been last time I tried. If I assumed too much from the parent post then sorry.
  - bigyellow 5y ago
    LineageOS has near-nightly binary releases, you don't need to build or "redo" anything to keep up to date, other than a 5-10 minute update over adb about once a week.
  - bubblethink 5y ago
    I agree that most of this requires conscious effort. I think I was needlessly harsh too. My point was that if someone is making the conscious effort of changing their devices/OSes etc., then they have shown the interest and ability, and at least for them, there are reasonable options (i.e., not just theoretical ones).
SXX 5y ago
Android have plenty of open source distributions without such features. They don't save you from baseband backdoor, but at least OS itself isn't your enemy.
nbzso 5y ago
Basic phone and iPhone SE (the old version) for banking apps. Never used iCloud. All my backups are done locally. It is not only about CSAM. CSAM was the last straw. Before this was that: echo 127.0.0.1 ocsp.apple.com | sudo tee -a /etc/hosts
- threeseed 5y ago
  In your situation then CSAM scanning would never have been an issue. It only applies when you have iCloud Photo Library enabled.
  - nbzso 5y ago
    It is not about the implementation either. It is about hostile attack towards user privacy after years of advertising: What Happens on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone. Privacy is King. Privacy. That's iPhone.
    - nicce 5y ago
      The most people have misunderstood how this system actually worked. I read every paper carefully, and this was very innovative system to protect your privacy IF we compare to existing CSAM solutions. Of course the best option is to not scan at all, but that is not really option. Only those pictures which were about to be uploaded iCloud, would have been scanned, and Apple would get information about image contents only if it is flagged. The phone is blackbox and it scans your files anyway all the time, sending metadata to Apple e.g. because of the spotlight feature and photo albums, or simply syncing your data to cloud. There is massive AI behind that spotlight feature. Nothing would have changed, just the different kind of information would have been flagged, but this time encrypted. The major improvement was E2EE like system for Photos. Currently they are not E2E encrypted in Cloud. They are plaintext for Apple. iOS 15 beta had also encryption for backups, but it never reached public reach after CSAM was delayed. So we lost yet another feature which would have increased the privacy. "But it happens in my device", is not really valid argument since most people don't understand what happens in their devices in the first hand. Even AV engines sends all your data to cloud, and you can't opt out in most of the cases and it is for every file.
fsflover 5y ago
How about GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone? Not well polished yet but running desktop OS with all its possibilities.
- mattl 5y ago
  Those phones are in no way usable as day to day phones.

theplumber 5y ago

What about the mobile OS?

bigyellow 5y ago
Not OP, but check out LineageOS without Play Services.

coldtea 5y ago

hu3 5y ago
Please don't post shallow dismissals. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments
- arbitrage 5y ago
  Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. Eschew flamebait. Please don't complain about tangential annoyances. Please don't post shallow dismissals. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    Beautiful is better than ugly. Explicit is better than implicit. Simple is better than complex. Complex is better than complicated. Flat is better than nested. Sparse is better than dense. Readability counts. Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. Although practicality beats purity. Errors should never pass silently. Unless explicitly silenced. In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch. Now is better than never. Although never is often better than right now. If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea. Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those! https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ Take heart in the bedeepening gloom That your dog is finally getting enough cheese. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6ugTmCYMk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6ugTmCYMk
- coldtea 5y ago
  How is not the parent comment a shallow reaction to the post, which was my point? It was the usual empty response that gets the top comment post and sets the tone for the thread.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

zepto 5y ago

Did you switch because of the proposed CSAM detector?

Syonyk 5y ago
I can't speak to the person you're asking, but I very much have eliminated Apple products from my daily use as a result of CSAM - though it was on top of a range of other things (mostly China related) that told me I can no longer really trust Apple. I've scrapped out a perfectly good (and exceedingly nice to use) M1 Mini, I no longer use a 2015 MBP, I've shut down my iPhone (not quite for good, I still have to figure out how to move my Signal root of identity off it), and I no longer use an iPad for work reference PDFs. I've replaced these with far less functional "But I'm making them work" sort of devices. An AT&T Flip IV for phone stuff (KaiOS, handles basic calls and texts, and not much else, though it does have GPS and maps, and can do email if you let it), a Kobo Elipsa + KOReader for PDF support, and I've spent a good bit of time tweaking a PineBook Pro into my daily driver laptop. The general view I have of Apple at this point is, "Oh, we know what kind of company you are, now we're just haggling over details."[0] To whine about Apple doing stuff and continue to use them says, "Yes, it's important enough to complain about online, but not important enough to alter how I use their products - therefore, not really important at all." [0]: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/03/07/haggling/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/03/07/haggling/
- hef19898 5y ago
  It's funny, the Apple CSAM issue got me to de-google and de-MS as much as possible. I didn't use Apple, but I figured the others won't be any better. That worked very well in private life, professionally it is Windows and will be for the foreseeable future. That leaves Windows machines for the kids to run MS Office and Teams for school.
- zepto 5y ago
  > I've scrapped out a perfectly good (and exceedingly nice to use) M1 Mini Given that the CSAM issue turns out to be moot, I assume you feel regret at doing this.

Silhouette 5y ago

Affinity Designer is running perfectly under Isolated Windows VM. Share more details about how you set that up please? Good graphics software, or the relative lack of it, is one of the few things still holding us back from shifting several daily use machines to Linux. Affinity would be OK for that but the only reports we found suggested it wasn't happy running virtually and performance was poor.

nbzso 5y ago
I switched my office workflow to Manjaro. https://leduccc.medium.com/improving-the-performance-of-a-windows-10-guest-on-qemu-a5b3f54d9cf5 https://leduccc.medium.com/improving-the-performance-of-a-wi... https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF#Isolating_pinned_CPUs https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF#Is...

kf6nux 5y ago

> I don't care. I [switched to Linux] That's short-sighted and self-centered. You don't care about whether or not other people's rights are violated? You don't see how normalizing rights violations could lead to downstream effects on you?

zarzavat 5y ago
The truth is that nobody has a right to use Apple products. It's good that Apple listens to criticism but if they had decided to steamroller this through, they would have been within their rights to do so.
nbzso 5y ago
Please, don't insult me and judge me so quickly. Read all my responses. You can check my posts back in time (If you wish). The whole reason for my HN post activity (reading in the shadows from 2008-10) is CSAM. In the beginning of this issue nobody cared and tons of Apple fanboys down-voted every possible negative reaction. Apple is industry leader. Everyone will copy what they create. You can read "I don't care" as an emotional reaction of an individual who had invested tons of money in Apple, used Apple products and evangelized thousands of friends and customers. Only to realize that The Beauty is actually The Beast.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
We do care. However, what can we do about it? Can we somehow make the billion dollar corporation do what we want? Unlikely. Better to use systems that we actually control so that we don't have to suffer their tyranny.

aunty_helen 5y ago

Hey I just want to let you know that you're not alone and there are other sane people out there that aren't just grumbling but keeping on with the boiling frog. Even though the new mbps look really nice, I've got a Framework laptop sitting at home that I'm in the process of migrating to (that's $4k of MBP max that apple have missed out on). And early next year, I'm moving off the iphone platform onto probably a pixel and switching the OS to something like Graphine. It's going to be fun and experimental. I'm also looking to hire some developers next year, provided laptops will be Linux too.

nbzso 5y ago
My business operation is small. I wisely postponed buying new computers for the office. I admit that M1 chips were the primary target. Apple lost from my business north of 80k euros, now redirected towards Lenovo ThinkPad X1's and custom build PC's.