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About Three-in-Ten U.S. Adults Are Now Religiously Unaffiliated

164 points by spzx 5y ago

rel2thr 5y ago
its interesting to see catholic tick up a bit as protestantism continues to decline Anecdotally in christian circles there is a sense that the liberal churches are in big big decline , like methodism , anglicism , other liberal protestants. But churches that are more conservative ( baptist non denom, latin mass catholic ) are growing ( especially amongst the young ).
- QuarterReptile 5y ago
  And within your increasingly left-leaning mainline protestants, you have constant splintering. The conservative Episcopals, where they didn't convert to Roman Catholicism as whole congregations, made ACNA, which itself is a loose association that refuses to decide important issues like the ordination of women. This leads to many interesting lawsuits, since the Eoiscopal church is obscenely wealthy and owns all the buildings. The Lutherans have Missouri Synod and probably some others. The United Methodist Church seems to be avoiding any formal gatherings so that they can delay their own upcoming split, too.
  - throwawaygal7 5y ago
    I was fascinated to learn , recently that the Puritans became Unitarians! Overtime the religion wandered a lot as each generation reinterpreted what they believed- and it went from being what we call 'puritanical' to a generally more progressive faith. You can go into some of the most liberal Unitarian churches in New England and the original pastor was an OG puritan.
    - QuarterReptile 5y ago
      That is fascinating, but unfortunately not so surprising.. When you're unmoored from a strong governing structure or tradition, I think it's unlikely to be any other way.
downrightmike 5y ago
Voluntary response sampling bias. This leads to extreme polarization being represented. So really this just shows that religious Americans are more likely to answer a survey about religion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ffwszgf 5y ago
In perhaps unrelated news suicides and depression in the US are also at all time highs
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Overtonwindow 5y ago
FWIW I grew up under a Baptist umbrella, but was never religious. Tried out a bunch of religion's as an adult but couldn't quite get it. Still, I found that churches for the most part are good-intentioned places, with many flavors, but overall a net benefit to the community.
- ancode 5y ago
  Yeah, which community? I'm glad you had a place to hang out with your neighbors but lobbying by religious groups in the US have real negative consequences for a lot of people.
  - ardit33 5y ago
    Don't be a bigot. In NYC there are churches that cater to lgbtq people. Not every church is the same.
    - tasty_freeze 5y ago
      You are not countering the claims of the person you are replying to, and calling them a bigot is unwarranted. They made no claims about every church. Their claim was that churches in the large have lobbied to expand privileges which comes at the expense of other people. The Catholic church runs many hospitals. They aren't charity hospitals -- they have similar cost structures that other hospitals have and play the same billing games. In many communities they are the only option. But because of their religious ownership, they can prohibit procedures which are otherwise legal.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      hey everyone chill out, some churches think it’s ok for you to exist…
  - Overtonwindow 5y ago
    Fair point, I would say they are a net benefit to their community
- 5y ago
gorwell 5y ago
Religion isn't disappearing, it was simply rebranded. Many replaced it with a new religion called Wokeism. John McWhorter: “I do not mean that these people’s ideology is ‘like’ a religion. I seek no rhetorical snap in this comparison. I mean that it actually is a religion,” he writes. “An anthropologist would see no difference in type between Pentecostalism and this new form of antiracism.” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/books/review/john-mcwhorter-woke-racism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/books/review/john-mcwhort... Paul Graham: Organized religion = ideology + god. But the 20th century has shown you can replace the god with a substitute. In communism it was the worker. In wokeness it's various protected classes. https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1468526884921171969 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1468526884921171969
- sjg007 5y ago
  Nonsense.
  - clajiness 5y ago
    What exactly is nonsense?
    - chickenpotpie 5y ago
      > Religion didn't disappear, it merely changed shaped. Many replaced it with the new religion of Wokeism. People are not replacing god with cancelling people on Twitter. Those things are completely unrelated.
      - gonehome 5y ago
        I'm not so sure, I think people are actually filling it with lots of other ideological stuff. Wokeism is one example, but Trumpism is kind of another? Similarly a lot of crypto people treat it almost religiously. People like to have some sort of tribal affiliation and it tends to be around some sort of ideology or at least gestures towards one. I think this is often harmful, but a lot of this stuff is related to an underlying human truth.
aurizon 5y ago
Religiously unaffiliated means they do not attend a church at all. A lot of people who are asked what their affiliation is just put whatever their parents were or what they grew up in, even if now fully lapsed. Churches have attendance statistics that put religious affiliation in the 5-6% range(Varies with the religion and area, Muslims the highest, but also the most rapidly declining as the youth in the USA/Canada are free to depart)
easton 5y ago
I was doing some thinking on the whole "third place"[0] problem today, and reading this I wonder if it's possible we have it backwards. Maybe people don't go to church because they no longer have the time (or the need) for the third place, as opposed to people no longer having a third place because of not going to church (or a bar, bowling alley, whatever). Maybe it's a privilege and not a need as people thought about it pre-Internet, and since you can see people any time you want from home, you don't have the incentive to go see them live. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
- gonehome 5y ago
  Remindes me a bit of E.M. Forster's weirdly prescient 1909 short story The Machine Stops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops "The story describes a world in which most of the human population has lost the ability to live on the surface of the Earth. Each individual now lives in isolation below ground in a standard room, with all bodily and spiritual needs met by the omnipotent, global Machine. Travel is permitted, but is unpopular and rarely necessary. Communication is made via a kind of instant messaging/video conferencing machine with which people conduct their only activity: the sharing of ideas and what passes for knowledge."
  - jaytaylor 5y ago
    https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/Machine_stops.pdf https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/...
- rnoorda 5y ago
  I've been thinking along similar lines, and one thing I keep coming back to is the danger of making online spaces your "third place." Spending time on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, even HN, can be really dangerous when it's a third place and not just a way to interact occasionally. I have also felt a decline in my "second place" (workplace) social connections since I've been working remotely for a long time. I get along with people I work with, but I don't go to lunch or talk at the water cooler, so it's not a social environment the way an office can be. Don't get me wrong, I love remote work, but for anyone already lacking social interaction, I can see that need for connection.
scop 5y ago
One of the most interesting podcasts I've listened to this year discussed the roots of meaning, significance, and religious experience in our current culture. Where does meaning come from? How do our brains create meaning? Or is meaning revealed to us? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCvQsqSCWjA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCvQsqSCWjA
- trees101 5y ago
  That is an excellent talk
jawns 5y ago
Here's your regular reminder that this survey is a massively trailing indicator, meaning the events that led to this measurement have been decades in the making. I often tell people that in my grandparents' generation, people sent their kids to Catholic school because they wanted to reinforce the faith they were being exposed to at home. In my parents' generation, people sent their kids to Catholic school to fill in for the faith they were not being exposed to at home. And in my generation, people send their kids to Catholic school because the uniforms are cute. I jest, I jest, but this trend is being shaped by decades of changes in America's religious landscape. Just because the survey percentages have climbed significantly over the past 20 years doesn't necessarily mean that there is a recent impetus. I knew that this result was coming 30 years ago, when I noticed that relatively few of my classmates were in the pews on Sundays, because their parents weren't regular churchgoers. Now they're adults, and most are Nones. I guess if there's any silver lining, as someone who is still active in my faith, it's that as the numbers have dwindled, the people who have stuck around tend to be more engaged and more vibrant. Our parish started a Whole Family Religious Education Program, and unlike the CCD days when I was a kid, there are a nice group of parents who signed up and really want to learn more about their faith.
- sharkweek 5y ago
  I went to a small religious high school that was a weird mix of super religious kids with kids who were sent there because they got expelled from a different school and their parents were trying to "reform" them.
  - GoblinSlayer 5y ago
    Do super religious kids have a better discipline w.r.t. education?
  - zerocount 5y ago
    Were you super religious or being reformed?
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > And in my generation, people send their kids to Catholic school because the uniforms are cute. And because they are allowed to kick trouble makers. That's the main feature.
sokoloff 5y ago
I’m surprised it’s not more like three-in-ten are affiliated. That’s undoubtedly showing my own bias, but my guess would have been wildly off.
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  Yeah in my bubble the number is significantly higher.
- WesleyLivesay 5y ago
  It is interesting that they do not discuss age at any point in the article. My expectations would be that younger generations are much less religious, and so the 3-in-10 being unaffiliated is mostly due not to current trends but simply due to aging cohorts that were very religious. There is this Pew study with come information about generations and religious practices: https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/generational-cohort/ https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/generatio...
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  Being disowned by family and friends for leaving the church is an even stronger incentive than being told you're going to burn forever for not toeing the line. Just look at all the ex-LDS help groups out there as an example.
- microtherion 5y ago
  "Affiliated" covers a wide range, from weekly (or more than weekly) church attendance, to showing up in church for your baptism, confirmation, wedding, and funeral.
- RandallBrown 5y ago
  I was raised going to church. It was never a major part of my life and I haven't been in probably 15 years. Depending on how the question was asked, I might end up identifying as a Christian (or more specifically an Episcopalian.) Despite not really believing any of it, I still feel like it's a part of my identity on some level. I suspect there are plenty of people like me out there.
- 5y ago
binarynate 5y ago
I think one reason why religions have historically been so popular is that they fill a wide array of different needs: • Community (friends, support group) • Guidelines for morality / how to live life • Shared stories / beliefs about the origin of their people • Optimism and comfort from a belief in afterlife • Charitable causes In a way, I think religion has become "unbundled" over time, and these individual needs are increasingly being met my different alternatives (for example, meetups for meeting people, charities for helping others). But, of course, Americans are also just increasingly skeptical of religious beliefs.
- caser 5y ago
  This is on point! I’ve written about this a bunch here: humanmissives.com And hosted a conference on it here: summit.opendiv.org Just thought I’d share — may give you some additional academic perspective!
- darth_avocado 5y ago
  Or that the religion stopped providing that community for a lot of people and they found it elsewhere.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    They may have found the illusion of it on social media :) hence the loneliness crisis.
    - darth_avocado 5y ago
      For a lot of people that are marginalized by the communities they were born into, I’d say the illusion is still better. Assuming they haven’t actually found communities that accepts them that is.
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    Nothing replaced it. Community is largely nonexistent for many people today.
  - 5y ago
stevenalowe 5y ago
What percentage does it take to reach herd immunity?
- robomartin 5y ago
  > What percentage does it take to reach herd immunity? Now, that is absolutely hilarious! Thanks for a good laugh.
- daxfohl 5y ago
  Never. Even once religiousness goes away, there's still plenty of raw tribalism and xenophobia left to compensate.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    True, but religion creates extra tribalism (no gays! no Muslims!) and adds a healthy dose of justification for the tribalism. The way many Christian churches have fully embraced the "Jesus wants you to be rich" mantra and the "the poor deserve to be poor" mentality is fully out in the open now.
    - daxfohl 5y ago
      There's plenty of non-religious homophobia in Europe. Besides, the Bible doesn't talk about homosexuality nearly as much as other things that many Christians ignore (or so I've heard). It's all tribalism at the core. Trump could be out doing abortions on Times Square and not lose any votes.
      - jcranmer 5y ago
        Religious texts tend not to contain a lot of the bigoted mores usually ascribed to them--be it the Torah, the Bible, the Quran, what have you. Instead, a lot of this tends to originate from non-scriptual sources, such as the opinions of religious experts over the centuries interpreting these texts and imposing their own beliefs as ironclad scriptual law. (There's a particular irony when this happens in Christianity, as one of the main themes of Jesus' teaching is that strictly following religious law doesn't inherently make you a good person; the main villains of the New Testament are holier-than-thou religious types.)
barbacoa 5y ago
Organized religion may be fading away but faith based beliefs aren't changing. The same primordial need that religion fills is being filled today by political tribalism.
danbala 5y ago
that is a scarily low number of rational people :/
whalesalad 5y ago
Progress. Once we have the majority, it will be interesting to measure the moral temperament of society. Some might suggest it will be worse. But could it improve? Either way it’s good to see. Once we’re no longer conditioning our children with religious dogma they’ll be more free to grow up into true versions of themselves.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  This is temporary though due to the non-religious self selecting to have vastly fewer children. It’s why the UN is projecting that the share of non religious globally will actually continue to shrink as the EU fades away and a hundred million Christians are added in China etc.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    It's not like the religious and non-religious communities reproduce solely by having kids - this trend is driven by religious parents having non-religious children, and also there's the opposite phenomenon; IMHO the choices the teenagers and young adults make far outweigh any difference in fertility rates.
    - mensetmanusman 5y ago
      If the father is practicing, it’s something like 80% of the kids will. What we are experiencing now might be a second order blip due to WW1&2 wiping out so many fathers.
      - philipkglass 5y ago
        Switzerland has seen a similar rise of the unaffiliated and it never suffered mass casualties from the World Wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Switzerland#Census_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Switzerland#Census... If it's 80% retention per generation, there's no fatherless-blip needed to explain the decline since WW II. 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 = 51.2% retention after three generations.
ravenstine 5y ago
They may be unaffiliated with formal religions, but that doesn't mean they aren't religious or are more connected to reality. Plenty of people I know who aren't affiliated with a church of some kind think just as mystically as formally religious folks, sometimes even more so. I believe that the new global religion isn't even politics per se, as others have pointed to. It is a religion of the promise of technological intervention. Why waste time with diet and exercise when technology will cure obesity and diabetes in my lifetime? Why waste time cultivating relationships in real life when the Metaverse is right around the corner? Why waste time worrying about having a family and kids when life extension and artificial wombs will be invented in my lifetime? Why waste time going out when technology will soon allow me to never leave my home again? Why waste time working hard when UBI is right around the corner and inevitable? Why waste time read scripture when our digital existence will make morality irrelevant?
- strager 5y ago
  > Why waste time with ... This is what I used to think. Then I considered having children. My perspective changed quickly. (Though I don't know exactly why it changed.)
jimt1234 5y ago
Religion in the US has become too political. When I was a kid in the Midwest, the church told us to avoid politics. Then, almost overnight, "abortion" became an issue, and religious beliefs were no longer confined to church. Now we were supposed to get out and vote. Ever since it's just felt more like a PAC than anything else.
- smackeyacky 5y ago
  Religion was always political. We're still in living memory of highly sectarian societies where, for example in Australia, a Catholic was a lower social grade than Church of England and being a Methodist was something else entirely. All of these groups voted differently, associated differently and married differently. This hung on longer in small towns in Australia but was a definite societal attribute right up until the mid-1960s where it started to break down. We had waves of social change that barely shook that structure: Catholic churches and schools were once almost exclusively Irish, but the immigration from Italy during the 1940s/1950s changed that ethnic mixture significantly with barely a murmur to the social structure or how those people voted (predominantly aligned with the left for working class reasons). The church publically told them how to vote and they did it. As older churches like the Methodists disappeared (or were subsumed into more liberal church traditions) and the left started embracing social reforms (no-fault divorce, womens liberation, abortion, birth control, the breakdown of racial segregation) the religious part of society bifurcated: the more religious folk went to the right and the less religious folk just started walking away from church. That division was the end of organised religion as a driving social force. Now, the thing most christians seem to despise the most is other christians of a slightly different faith. Most organised religions have only themselves to blame for their quickly falling church attendance for that reason.
  - somethoughts 5y ago
    I'd layer on that "Religion was always political... but in the US it didn't need to be overtly political". By that I'd say since the silent majority of the population was Protestant then dominant Protestant religion would freely be intertwined with government. It's only when there is no longer a dominant Protestant religion that Religion becomes visible in politics.
jlos 5y ago
My working theory for the growth in the religiously unaffiliated is that they demographic of people who would have been nominal religious attendees a few decades ago. The number of people who attend church weekly (i.e. those with strong religious affiliation) has been basically static for a while now [0]. You could say that there is a difference between those with "weak" religious affiliation and those with "weekly" religious affiliation ;) I think this migration to no religious affiliation is probably due (or accelerated) by the internet. Sociologists of Religion such as Peter Berger suggest that a group of people holding a particular worldview create a social structure for the plausibility of the beliefs that underly the worldview. Exposure to more groups means you have more choice, and in fact must chose, between worldviews. The internet opens up a much larger number of plausibility structures which will be the most enticing to those with loose religious affiliation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance
jl6 5y ago
Meanwhile religiosity is going nowhere: repetition of mantras, hostility towards science that doesn’t support preconceptions, shaming and shunning of outgroups, tribal loyalty, purity purges, supplication before power, confession of sins, forbidden words, tolerance of incoherence… these are all distinctly religious behaviors that seem to be living on happily without the need for the traditional religions that used to host them.
- bko 5y ago
  I've heard the difference between ideology and religion is that religion asks you to make personal sacrifices, while ideology asks everyone else to make sacrifices for you. We have a lot of people that adhere to an ideology over religion > tolerance of incoherence Do you really think we're living in an overly tolerant society?
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    No need for oversimplifications. Plenty of very popular religions call for taking from others, by divine 'right' or to distribute divine justice.
    - throwawaygal7 5y ago
      I'm trying to think of examples, for instance is this a main theme in any Eastern religions? Islam? I guess you could kinda say that about the conquest of the Holy land in the Old Testament, but I think that's a specific case not a general principle of taking from others by divine right. What examples were you thinking of?
      - trasz 5y ago
        It's certainly the case in Christianity; see all kinds of morally-repulsive rules (discrimination against LGBT, abortion bans) enforced on non-believers by Church-sponsored state laws.
      - paulryanrogers 5y ago
trees101 5y ago
A useful way to think about religion, is to acknowledge that there are certain universal human features that never go away. For example, there will always be a highest principle by which a person's life is ordered (if they seem to change a lot, that highest principle might be their Self). It is very useful to consciously think about and cultivate the way that we might recognise our highest value, and the way we interact with it. We should realise potentially negative consequences of having the wrong thing for our highest value. This type of consideration is best classified differently to other life questions, and historically questions like this have been classified using the term "religious". This "highest value" is a placeholder in the human mind that Christianity would claim should be occupied by God. Once you reframe the conversation like this, you realise that there is no such thing as "non religious" people, and in fact denying a religious aspect of life is a form of suppression that could cause damage, because driving the most important questions of life into the subconscious realm makes a person vulnerable to ideological possession, e.g. through politics.
- foogazi 5y ago
  > Once you reframe the conversation Sure, move the goalposts and everyone scores
- acchow 5y ago
  > For example, there will always be a highest principle by which a person's life is ordered https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png
  - trees101 5y ago
    isn't it just obvious? We have to make decisions. Each decision is made (consciously or subconsciously) by weighing up the predicted outcome according to a set of values. Those values inevitably conflict, so they have in turn to be judged by a yet higher value. And so on until there is a top value. You might think that some people change their values on a whim, but that in fact shows that something like their Self is their top value. Unless our behaviour was completely random, I don't know how this could be any other way. If you insist on a citation, I'll refer to St Augustine. Here's a popular culture level article about it https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustine-sin-quote_n_56980d51e4b0778f46f8b931 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustine-sin-quote_n_56980d5...
padobson 5y ago
As the non-affiliated grow, this poll is starting to create more questions than answers. I think the vast mix of responses in this comments section shows that. In the 2021 NPORS, 4% of respondents describe themselves as atheists (up from 2% in 2011), and 5% describe themselves as agnostics (up from 3% a decade ago). One-in-five U.S. adults (20%) now describe their religion as “nothing in particular,” In the same way the poll is curious about Protestant vs. Catholic, and Mainline vs Evangelical/Born Again, I'd sure like to know a little bit more about the "nothing in particular" group - especially when 13% of them are praying on a daily basis. Who are the two percent of people responding to this survey who have no religion and pray every day? Is it none because they think religion is evil? Are they indifferent? Are they spiritual but think organized religion is unnecessary? Are they unaffiliated for intellectual reasons? Or have they never been exposed to religion at all and are mildly curious?
- geekbird 5y ago
  Maybe they are just not Christian, but still pray in their religion. Maybe they are agnostic and still want to try to have a connection with the divine, but not within an organized religion complete with dogma.
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
  > Who are the two percent of people responding to this survey who have no religion and pray every day? They might eat with their family, who are religious, and go along with the prayer because they think the slight inconvenience isn't worth rocking the boat over.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  > Who are the two percent of people responding to this survey who have no religion and pray every day? Nothing in particular is very different than being atheist/agnostic. In general they are dissatisfied with organized religion or believe it is actually evil. I know several people who would describe themselves as "christian" but left the Catholic Church during the paedophilia scandal and, hence, would describe themselves as "nothing in particular". Some of them see "The Church" as evil now. I also know people who firmly believe there is a higher power guiding the world but don't have a particular god in mind. I also know quite a few people who believe in a Christian God but find all of the organized religions very unpalatable and hypocritical.
tuyguntn 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_suicides_in_the_United_States_1981_2016.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_suicides_in_the_Uni... This graph seems to be correlated. I think humans are still irrational species and trying to make us 100% rational has some consequences. I think religion is something good to keep people calm and caring about each other and helps mentally keep up with real world issues. Couldn't find similar graph for burnout rate, but from what I read recently it is increasing every year as well.
- protoax 5y ago
  There are thousands of different graphs that correlate with that one. I don’t think I need to give the whole “correlation ≠ causation” line again.
wombatmobile 5y ago
> Currently, 60% of Protestants say “yes” when asked whether they think of themselves as a “born-again or evangelical Christian,” So, the data comes from self-reporting, not from an external or objectively calibrated method. This makes it difficult to interpret the trend line of this data. Are we observing a shift in religiosity, or a change in the definition of the terms?
- tzs 5y ago
  What would be an "external or objectively calibrated method" to determine what someone thinks of themselves as?
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    There isn't one. Ergo, what is being measured or tallied is not an internal state, but just a social and/or political identification. It's important to be aware of that limitation of the data.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  > So, the data comes from self-reporting, not from an external or objectively calibrated method I'm not sure that there's a particularly effective lab test for whether someone's an evangelical Protestant... I suppose you could give people an exam, but what you'd find generally is that most people have almost no idea of the religion they identify as.
deleted 5y ago
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throwawaylolz 5y ago
3 in 10. I mean I don't believe it by any means, but imagine that. In saying that, I would likely want to believe in a deity if I was praying for cancer treatment that I couldn't afford as well whilst the stress of wondering how my family would survive crushed me into the dirt and all I needed was some vacation time to sort my head out and as I looked around, people were wearing MAGA hats. Meanwhile those with drive were looking upto Steve Jobs as an idol who with infinite money, prayed to fruit or something idiotic like that? Oh god it's so fucking tragic and depressing.
cletus 5y ago
From my experience, the US is unique among developed countries in how effectively religion has been weaponized and has permeated its way into politics. Combine that with the electoral college system and we have minority rule by declining but increasingly radical evangelicals [1]. This Faustian bargain with Trump largely explains his election victory in 2016 and his near-victory in 2020. I've never seen anything like this elsewhere. Obviously there are religious troubles elsewhere eg the Republicans (Catholics) against the Unionists (Protestants) in Northern Ireland. I grew up in Australia and we just don't have this radicalism. Abortion isn't a defining hot-button issue. The issue of gay marriage was settled by a popular vote and then largely considered settled and most people just moved on. I, personally, don't really care what anyone's religion is. That's your choice. But where I draw the line is when that minority tries to enforce their religious view into law. SCOTUS's unwillingness to act against Texas's SB8 bill (where normally they'd stay it pending full review, particularly when it so flagrantly violated 50 years of established constitutional precedent) is shocking and deeply disturbing. So where I otherwise wouldn't care, I'm pleased to see the decline in this article of evangelicals in particular. [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2021/05/evangelicals-republican-voters/618845/ https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2021/05/evangel...
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Thorentis 5y ago
Unfortunately, very little has filled the void left by religion, and I think this is having a profound negative effect on society. Churches used to (and still do) provide: a local support network, initiation rituals for children (giving them a sense of belonging - something very important and very lacking in our Western culture without religion) , a social outlet and place to make friends, often have free to use facilities for members so you can have events there like weddings, funerals, birthdays, a shared experience that gives people a sense of belonging, etc. People might say that these things have all been replaced by other things, and while that might be possible if you go out of your way to find a replacement for each and every one, humans are quite lazy and very few people ever do this. Being part of a church or other religious group gives you all this for free, and despite the other negatives, I think that is a huge positive that many people are starting to miss out on.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  After 30y in the church I'd trade all the mediocre benefits to get back all the time and peace of mind that was lost.
  - etempleton 5y ago
    This. I got absolutely nothing from religion and I tried throughout my whole adolecence. Went to Church every week. It never made sense to me. I never felt the faith, or the community, or anything. I just don’t think I am wired for religion.
    - tsol 5y ago
      People keep equating Christianity with the concept of religion. It is a religion, sure, but only one particular religion. But it's a bit like saying "I dated Christy she just wasted 10 years of my life, it's clear I must be aromantic"
      - paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Some of us have explored other religions as well. Most seem to rely on unprovable claims that must be taken on faith, or experiences that cannot be quantified or tested in any meaningful sense. As far as I'm concerned the scientific method is a far more productive and fulfilling way to live and solve problems.
moosebear847 5y ago
Why I am not religous: 1. Leap of faith is risky, while science is based on repeatable experiments. Kind of like when you're building a house, instead of hoping and praying the foundation is stable, test it to be certain. 2. Who knows who made these stories up? Could have been some guy high on mushrooms. I'd rather decide what's right for myself than blindly follow some unknown-source, unchanging-with-the-world and unexplained statements some dude probably made up. I do agree with most of the ethics and morals of Christianity and similar religions. Society would probably be better if everyone abided by it. But if they abide through religion then people would also be a little crazy because they're willing to believe things without proper supporting evidence. What if the leader of the church says, "Yo God hit me up and said if we drown all non-believers in the holy pool tonight, we'll be chilling in heaven by this time tomorrow." I would want to know that my friends would act rationally and not do crazy things.
honkycat 5y ago
A lot of religion is an openly corrupt parody of itself. Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Falwell Jr. All of the scandals with the catholic priests and the subsequent cover-up. The catholic church and their genocide of indigenous cultures. The stadium-sized mega churches, and their millionaire pastors with their private jets. A lot of culture has become more accepting while religion remains intolerant due to the initial texts being written 2000 years ago. The bible is pro-slavery, it is anti-gay, its values due not meet the standards of modern society. We now have cameras and proof of everything. Proof of the supernatural has not materialized. It used to be easier to claim you saw an angel on the pulpit when people couldn't ask: "Where was your cellphone?" I grew up in a rural community, I went to multiple churches growing up. I've been inside. There is intolerance. People love to say "hate the sin not the sinner" but that is cold comfort for a gay teenager who someone will invariably take it upon themselves to convert, or use their religion as a justification to persecute them. At the end of the day, for me, there is no proof, and I see nothing to admire in the whole enterprise.
- throwawaygal7 5y ago
  Could you list specific genocides you feel were mandated by the catholic church? What were the motives of the church to commit genocide? Are you conflating the Spanish and Portuguese conquests with catholic church mandated genocide? I used to be of your view but now I look at the Jesuit reductions and wonder if I might have been inheriting some black legend ideas from the last couple centuries.
  - honkycat 5y ago
    - Catholic schools in Ireland - Catholic schools in Canada - Catholic schools in Australia - The Nyarubuye massacre Or do things conducted by catholic organizations on catholic property not meet your goalpost?
    - throwawaygal7 5y ago
      And you think the above are genocides like the Armenian genocide or the holocaust? Organized and mandated as an official part of the church trying to eliminate a certain ethnic or national group? The only one that seems to fit the bill is the ethnic cleansing in Rawanda which didn't enjoy support of the international church hierarchy and is pretty recent. EDIT: This is actually a terrible example, the massacre happened at a catholic church where lay people and religious sisters were killed by another ethnic group. this is not fairly a 'catholic church' genocide but rather a masssacre at a catholic church during an existing genocide. Was the purpose and intent of the school systems were to kill the pupils? I'm unconcinced the narrarive around the schools in Canada is pretty weak too - theres really no way to call that a genocide without deliberately hiding some or all of the facts. I'll have to double check but I think you're stretching things a good bit.
dghughes 5y ago
There's nothing wrong with not being religious but to me it seems the ethics and morals void hasn't been filled. Doing the right thing even if you don't have to seems to be mocked these days. Someone buys 100 hard drives because a pricing error that person is cheered as a hero not as opportunistic. And really sports is the new religion it seems to be similar in mentality.
Animats 5y ago
It's not about theology. It's about politics. "As political scientist David Campbell of Notre Dame demonstrated in a recent essay, the perceived confluence between Evangelicalism and the most reactionary forces in the Republican party is a major reason for the upsurge in the percentage of Americans who self-identify as nonreligious or wholly secular." [1] https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/05/28/evangelicals-trump-and-how-politics-shapes-religion-not-the-other-way-around/ https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/05/28/evangelicals-trump-...
- biophysboy 5y ago
  American religions are fairly thin on explicit theology, because they are so individualist and transcendental. Whats the point of making a canon if you have the power of a spiritual witness? My view is that the unique, "democratized" nature of American religion made it more vulnerable to political opportunism because this theological vaccuum existed.
Fezzik 5y ago
Whenever I read about the too-slow demise of religion it warms the cockles of my heart and I am reminded of the insightful words of Robert Ingersoll (and I challenge anyone to find any scripture that meets his words in inspiration, hope and joy): ‘When I became convinced that the Universe is natural -- that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world -- not even in infinite space. I was free -- free to think, to express my thoughts -- free to live to my own ideal -- free to live for myself and those I loved -- free to use all my faculties, all my senses -- free to spread imagination's wings -- free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope -- free to judge and determine for myself -- free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the "inspired" books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past -- free from popes and priests -- free from all the "called" and "set apart" -- free from sanctified mistakes and holy lies -- free from the fear of eternal pain -- free from the winged monsters of the night -- free from the devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the realms of thought -- no air, no space, where fancy could not spread her painted wings -- no chains for my limbs -- no lashes for my back -- no fires for my flesh -- no master's frown or threat -- no following another's steps -- no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds. And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain -- for the freedom of labor and thought -- to those who fell in the fierce fields of war, to those who died in dungeons bound with chains -- those those who proudly mounted scaffold's stairs -- to those whose bones were crushed, whose flesh was scarred and torn -- to those by fire consumed -- to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then I vowed to grasp the torch that they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still. Let us be true to ourselves -- true to the facts we know, and let us, above all things, preserve the veracity of our souls. If there be gods we cannot help them, but we can assist our fellow-men. We cannot love the inconceivable, but we can love wife and child and friend. We can be honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know. We can tell the truth, and we can enjoy the blessed freedom that the brave have won. We can destroy the monsters of superstition, the hissing snakes of ignorance and fear. We can drive from our minds the frightful things that tear and wound with beak and fang. We can civilize our fellow-men. We can fill our lives with generous deeds, with loving words, with art and song, and all the ecstasies of love. We can flood our year with sunshine -- with the divine climate of kindness, and we can drain to the last drop the golden cup of joy.’
olliej 5y ago
How much of this is because in America the loudest religious voices: * deny science * attack the basic rights of other people * aggressively push for laws based on their own religious beliefs at the expense of everyone else Etc Given that most studies have shown younger people are more likely to accept science, other people, etc this could simply be reflective of people not wanting to be associated with the loud people.
zw123456 5y ago
I think there are a couple of things at play here. Full disclosure, I have no data to substantiate by "hunch" but I think it would be interesting to see if there is a way of testing it. My theory is that, as society becomes more accepting of "unaffiliated" more people admit it. I think the parallel is that we have always, most likely, had the same percentage of the population that is gay for example, but just more people feel safe to admit to it in a more open society that we have today. I think religion is similar in that; in the past, it would be a career killer or one would be confronted by other challenges if anyone were to discover or if you were to admit to being and atheist, agnostic, unaffiliated or whatever label. Today, most people in westernized nations, feel free to admit it, but, again, just a hunch, but I am willing to bet that say, 100 years ago, there were plenty of people who had significant doubts but knew that if they didn't want to end up on fire tied to a steak, best to keep it to one's self.
- TingPing 5y ago
  I also think it's often subconscious. The default was to associate with one even if you had no real involvement or beliefs.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  > I think religion is similar in that; in the past, it would be a career killer or one would be confronted by other challenges if anyone were to discover or if you were to admit to being and atheist, agnostic, unaffiliated or whatever label. This is very true. I've been an atheist for 40 years and it's really only been the past 10 years or so where being openly atheist doesn't trigger negative responses. In Canada. I'm not sure I'd be openly atheist in the US South.
  - zw123456 5y ago
    I became an atheist when I was 14 years old and I was forced to attend confirmation. I asked questions repeatedly about simple obvious things such as dinosaurs and how did they get on that ark, what about kangaroos did that ark get all the away to Australia, lots of obvious questions. I was kicked out of confirmation for asking too many questions. My Father thought it was hilarious at the time, then my parents divorced and he, who joked about how stupid religion is, then married his second wife who was evangelical, suddenly, he was a believer. Interesting, here is a person who, jokeed about how religion was for people with weak minds, suddenly becomes a true believer. My conclusion, from this and a lot of other examples I could bored everyone with, people "believe" when it benefits them, financially, socially, emotionally, sexually, etc.
mullingitover 5y ago
It's pretty clear to me how this happens, I'm one of those people who became unaffiliated. I was raised in a religious household. I got fed a lot of objectively weird things from my parents' religion: - The pope is the antichrist - The Catholic Church, according to biblical prophecy, will force everyone to attend church on Sunday - If you comply with this and don't become a martyr, you will not be saved These are the Seventh-Day Adventists' beliefs, and this is a pretty mainstream protestant religion in the US. They run a whole huge health care system and they have millions of members and vast amounts of real estate, yet their actual beliefs are objectively totally nuts to me. This is how a lot of the religions sound, when you take a step back they're pure crazy talk wrapped up in some common sense "don't be a jerk" teachings. If you go back a few hundred years, you'd just be murdered by your neighbors if you came out and said their beliefs are crazy. In a lot of the world today you'll get this treatment. The people who are able to escape this stuff are enjoying a luxury that is rare in the history of the world.
- unnamed76ri 5y ago
  For what it’s worth, most of Christianity would not consider many Seventh Day Adventist beliefs to be pretty mainstream.
  - mullingitover 5y ago
    There are more Adventists than Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Southern Baptists, etc. Most of Christianity's different sects agree that they're the normal ones, by 'mainstream' I just mean that people aren't going to treat you like a cult member at work if you're part of that religion.
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RappingBoomer 5y ago
religion is not spirituality...and humans are evolved to have a spiritual component to their psyche...typically, as humans age, they have a spiritual/religious epiphany...in america, it's usually associated with the christian bible...this is how they dampen their fear of death as they age
dpweb 5y ago
Interesting about prayer as it seems positive visualization, law of attraction type mental activities seem to be more popular than they were 20-30 years ago, by people who would never call themselves religious. I’ve always found them to be similar. I think rituals similar to religious rituals but not religion per se come in to fill the void where organized religious practice used to be.
prirun 5y ago
We're not supposed to be racist, yet Pew Research Center publishes this report broken down between whites and blacks. It's pretty difficult to treat everyone alike when we're always being bombarded by media contrasting our differences.
usefulcat 5y ago
This may be techically correct, but I suspect it fails to take into account that political affiliation is the new religion in the US.
bananapub 5y ago
70% of Americans are religiously affiliated? that's amazing.
alpineidyll3 5y ago
Wow. only 3/10... I live in an echo chamber I guess. I would have guessed 6/10.
nikolay 5y ago
And how is this a good thing?!

164 points by spzx 5y ago

its interesting to see catholic tick up a bit as protestantism continues to decline Anecdotally in christian circles there is a sense that the liberal churches are in big big decline , like methodism , anglicism , other liberal protestants. But churches that are more conservative ( baptist non denom, latin mass catholic ) are growing ( especially amongst the young ).

QuarterReptile 5y ago
And within your increasingly left-leaning mainline protestants, you have constant splintering. The conservative Episcopals, where they didn't convert to Roman Catholicism as whole congregations, made ACNA, which itself is a loose association that refuses to decide important issues like the ordination of women. This leads to many interesting lawsuits, since the Eoiscopal church is obscenely wealthy and owns all the buildings. The Lutherans have Missouri Synod and probably some others. The United Methodist Church seems to be avoiding any formal gatherings so that they can delay their own upcoming split, too.
- throwawaygal7 5y ago
  I was fascinated to learn , recently that the Puritans became Unitarians! Overtime the religion wandered a lot as each generation reinterpreted what they believed- and it went from being what we call 'puritanical' to a generally more progressive faith. You can go into some of the most liberal Unitarian churches in New England and the original pastor was an OG puritan.
  - QuarterReptile 5y ago
    That is fascinating, but unfortunately not so surprising.. When you're unmoored from a strong governing structure or tradition, I think it's unlikely to be any other way.

downrightmike 5y ago

Voluntary response sampling bias. This leads to extreme polarization being represented. So really this just shows that religious Americans are more likely to answer a survey about religion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ffwszgf 5y ago

In perhaps unrelated news suicides and depression in the US are also at all time highs

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Overtonwindow 5y ago

FWIW I grew up under a Baptist umbrella, but was never religious. Tried out a bunch of religion's as an adult but couldn't quite get it. Still, I found that churches for the most part are good-intentioned places, with many flavors, but overall a net benefit to the community.

ancode 5y ago
Yeah, which community? I'm glad you had a place to hang out with your neighbors but lobbying by religious groups in the US have real negative consequences for a lot of people.
- ardit33 5y ago
  Don't be a bigot. In NYC there are churches that cater to lgbtq people. Not every church is the same.
  - tasty_freeze 5y ago
    You are not countering the claims of the person you are replying to, and calling them a bigot is unwarranted. They made no claims about every church. Their claim was that churches in the large have lobbied to expand privileges which comes at the expense of other people. The Catholic church runs many hospitals. They aren't charity hospitals -- they have similar cost structures that other hospitals have and play the same billing games. In many communities they are the only option. But because of their religious ownership, they can prohibit procedures which are otherwise legal.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    hey everyone chill out, some churches think it’s ok for you to exist…
- Overtonwindow 5y ago
  Fair point, I would say they are a net benefit to their community
5y ago

gorwell 5y ago

Religion isn't disappearing, it was simply rebranded. Many replaced it with a new religion called Wokeism. John McWhorter: “I do not mean that these people’s ideology is ‘like’ a religion. I seek no rhetorical snap in this comparison. I mean that it actually is a religion,” he writes. “An anthropologist would see no difference in type between Pentecostalism and this new form of antiracism.” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/books/review/john-mcwhorter-woke-racism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/books/review/john-mcwhort... Paul Graham: Organized religion = ideology + god. But the 20th century has shown you can replace the god with a substitute. In communism it was the worker. In wokeness it's various protected classes. https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1468526884921171969 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1468526884921171969

sjg007 5y ago
Nonsense.
- clajiness 5y ago
  What exactly is nonsense?
  - chickenpotpie 5y ago
    > Religion didn't disappear, it merely changed shaped. Many replaced it with the new religion of Wokeism. People are not replacing god with cancelling people on Twitter. Those things are completely unrelated.
    - gonehome 5y ago
      I'm not so sure, I think people are actually filling it with lots of other ideological stuff. Wokeism is one example, but Trumpism is kind of another? Similarly a lot of crypto people treat it almost religiously. People like to have some sort of tribal affiliation and it tends to be around some sort of ideology or at least gestures towards one. I think this is often harmful, but a lot of this stuff is related to an underlying human truth.

aurizon 5y ago

Religiously unaffiliated means they do not attend a church at all. A lot of people who are asked what their affiliation is just put whatever their parents were or what they grew up in, even if now fully lapsed. Churches have attendance statistics that put religious affiliation in the 5-6% range(Varies with the religion and area, Muslims the highest, but also the most rapidly declining as the youth in the USA/Canada are free to depart)

easton 5y ago

I was doing some thinking on the whole "third place"[0] problem today, and reading this I wonder if it's possible we have it backwards. Maybe people don't go to church because they no longer have the time (or the need) for the third place, as opposed to people no longer having a third place because of not going to church (or a bar, bowling alley, whatever). Maybe it's a privilege and not a need as people thought about it pre-Internet, and since you can see people any time you want from home, you don't have the incentive to go see them live. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

gonehome 5y ago
Remindes me a bit of E.M. Forster's weirdly prescient 1909 short story The Machine Stops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops "The story describes a world in which most of the human population has lost the ability to live on the surface of the Earth. Each individual now lives in isolation below ground in a standard room, with all bodily and spiritual needs met by the omnipotent, global Machine. Travel is permitted, but is unpopular and rarely necessary. Communication is made via a kind of instant messaging/video conferencing machine with which people conduct their only activity: the sharing of ideas and what passes for knowledge."
- jaytaylor 5y ago
  https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/Machine_stops.pdf https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/...
rnoorda 5y ago
I've been thinking along similar lines, and one thing I keep coming back to is the danger of making online spaces your "third place." Spending time on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, even HN, can be really dangerous when it's a third place and not just a way to interact occasionally. I have also felt a decline in my "second place" (workplace) social connections since I've been working remotely for a long time. I get along with people I work with, but I don't go to lunch or talk at the water cooler, so it's not a social environment the way an office can be. Don't get me wrong, I love remote work, but for anyone already lacking social interaction, I can see that need for connection.

scop 5y ago

One of the most interesting podcasts I've listened to this year discussed the roots of meaning, significance, and religious experience in our current culture. Where does meaning come from? How do our brains create meaning? Or is meaning revealed to us? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCvQsqSCWjA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCvQsqSCWjA

trees101 5y ago
That is an excellent talk

jawns 5y ago

Here's your regular reminder that this survey is a massively trailing indicator, meaning the events that led to this measurement have been decades in the making. I often tell people that in my grandparents' generation, people sent their kids to Catholic school because they wanted to reinforce the faith they were being exposed to at home. In my parents' generation, people sent their kids to Catholic school to fill in for the faith they were not being exposed to at home. And in my generation, people send their kids to Catholic school because the uniforms are cute. I jest, I jest, but this trend is being shaped by decades of changes in America's religious landscape. Just because the survey percentages have climbed significantly over the past 20 years doesn't necessarily mean that there is a recent impetus. I knew that this result was coming 30 years ago, when I noticed that relatively few of my classmates were in the pews on Sundays, because their parents weren't regular churchgoers. Now they're adults, and most are Nones. I guess if there's any silver lining, as someone who is still active in my faith, it's that as the numbers have dwindled, the people who have stuck around tend to be more engaged and more vibrant. Our parish started a Whole Family Religious Education Program, and unlike the CCD days when I was a kid, there are a nice group of parents who signed up and really want to learn more about their faith.

sharkweek 5y ago
I went to a small religious high school that was a weird mix of super religious kids with kids who were sent there because they got expelled from a different school and their parents were trying to "reform" them.
- GoblinSlayer 5y ago
  Do super religious kids have a better discipline w.r.t. education?
- zerocount 5y ago
  Were you super religious or being reformed?
908B64B197 5y ago
> And in my generation, people send their kids to Catholic school because the uniforms are cute. And because they are allowed to kick trouble makers. That's the main feature.

sokoloff 5y ago

I’m surprised it’s not more like three-in-ten are affiliated. That’s undoubtedly showing my own bias, but my guess would have been wildly off.

CogitoCogito 5y ago
Yeah in my bubble the number is significantly higher.
WesleyLivesay 5y ago
It is interesting that they do not discuss age at any point in the article. My expectations would be that younger generations are much less religious, and so the 3-in-10 being unaffiliated is mostly due not to current trends but simply due to aging cohorts that were very religious. There is this Pew study with come information about generations and religious practices: https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/generational-cohort/ https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/generatio...
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Being disowned by family and friends for leaving the church is an even stronger incentive than being told you're going to burn forever for not toeing the line. Just look at all the ex-LDS help groups out there as an example.
microtherion 5y ago
"Affiliated" covers a wide range, from weekly (or more than weekly) church attendance, to showing up in church for your baptism, confirmation, wedding, and funeral.
RandallBrown 5y ago
I was raised going to church. It was never a major part of my life and I haven't been in probably 15 years. Depending on how the question was asked, I might end up identifying as a Christian (or more specifically an Episcopalian.) Despite not really believing any of it, I still feel like it's a part of my identity on some level. I suspect there are plenty of people like me out there.
5y ago

binarynate 5y ago

I think one reason why religions have historically been so popular is that they fill a wide array of different needs: • Community (friends, support group) • Guidelines for morality / how to live life • Shared stories / beliefs about the origin of their people • Optimism and comfort from a belief in afterlife • Charitable causes In a way, I think religion has become "unbundled" over time, and these individual needs are increasingly being met my different alternatives (for example, meetups for meeting people, charities for helping others). But, of course, Americans are also just increasingly skeptical of religious beliefs.

caser 5y ago
This is on point! I’ve written about this a bunch here: humanmissives.com And hosted a conference on it here: summit.opendiv.org Just thought I’d share — may give you some additional academic perspective!
darth_avocado 5y ago
Or that the religion stopped providing that community for a lot of people and they found it elsewhere.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  They may have found the illusion of it on social media :) hence the loneliness crisis.
  - darth_avocado 5y ago
    For a lot of people that are marginalized by the communities they were born into, I’d say the illusion is still better. Assuming they haven’t actually found communities that accepts them that is.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  Nothing replaced it. Community is largely nonexistent for many people today.
- 5y ago

stevenalowe 5y ago

What percentage does it take to reach herd immunity?

robomartin 5y ago
> What percentage does it take to reach herd immunity? Now, that is absolutely hilarious! Thanks for a good laugh.
daxfohl 5y ago
Never. Even once religiousness goes away, there's still plenty of raw tribalism and xenophobia left to compensate.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  True, but religion creates extra tribalism (no gays! no Muslims!) and adds a healthy dose of justification for the tribalism. The way many Christian churches have fully embraced the "Jesus wants you to be rich" mantra and the "the poor deserve to be poor" mentality is fully out in the open now.
  - daxfohl 5y ago
    There's plenty of non-religious homophobia in Europe. Besides, the Bible doesn't talk about homosexuality nearly as much as other things that many Christians ignore (or so I've heard). It's all tribalism at the core. Trump could be out doing abortions on Times Square and not lose any votes.
    - jcranmer 5y ago
      Religious texts tend not to contain a lot of the bigoted mores usually ascribed to them--be it the Torah, the Bible, the Quran, what have you. Instead, a lot of this tends to originate from non-scriptual sources, such as the opinions of religious experts over the centuries interpreting these texts and imposing their own beliefs as ironclad scriptual law. (There's a particular irony when this happens in Christianity, as one of the main themes of Jesus' teaching is that strictly following religious law doesn't inherently make you a good person; the main villains of the New Testament are holier-than-thou religious types.)

barbacoa 5y ago

Organized religion may be fading away but faith based beliefs aren't changing. The same primordial need that religion fills is being filled today by political tribalism.

danbala 5y ago

that is a scarily low number of rational people :/

whalesalad 5y ago

Progress. Once we have the majority, it will be interesting to measure the moral temperament of society. Some might suggest it will be worse. But could it improve? Either way it’s good to see. Once we’re no longer conditioning our children with religious dogma they’ll be more free to grow up into true versions of themselves.

mensetmanusman 5y ago
This is temporary though due to the non-religious self selecting to have vastly fewer children. It’s why the UN is projecting that the share of non religious globally will actually continue to shrink as the EU fades away and a hundred million Christians are added in China etc.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  It's not like the religious and non-religious communities reproduce solely by having kids - this trend is driven by religious parents having non-religious children, and also there's the opposite phenomenon; IMHO the choices the teenagers and young adults make far outweigh any difference in fertility rates.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    If the father is practicing, it’s something like 80% of the kids will. What we are experiencing now might be a second order blip due to WW1&2 wiping out so many fathers.
    - philipkglass 5y ago
      Switzerland has seen a similar rise of the unaffiliated and it never suffered mass casualties from the World Wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Switzerland#Census_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Switzerland#Census... If it's 80% retention per generation, there's no fatherless-blip needed to explain the decline since WW II. 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 = 51.2% retention after three generations.

ravenstine 5y ago

They may be unaffiliated with formal religions, but that doesn't mean they aren't religious or are more connected to reality. Plenty of people I know who aren't affiliated with a church of some kind think just as mystically as formally religious folks, sometimes even more so. I believe that the new global religion isn't even politics per se, as others have pointed to. It is a religion of the promise of technological intervention. Why waste time with diet and exercise when technology will cure obesity and diabetes in my lifetime? Why waste time cultivating relationships in real life when the Metaverse is right around the corner? Why waste time worrying about having a family and kids when life extension and artificial wombs will be invented in my lifetime? Why waste time going out when technology will soon allow me to never leave my home again? Why waste time working hard when UBI is right around the corner and inevitable? Why waste time read scripture when our digital existence will make morality irrelevant?

strager 5y ago
> Why waste time with ... This is what I used to think. Then I considered having children. My perspective changed quickly. (Though I don't know exactly why it changed.)

jimt1234 5y ago

Religion in the US has become too political. When I was a kid in the Midwest, the church told us to avoid politics. Then, almost overnight, "abortion" became an issue, and religious beliefs were no longer confined to church. Now we were supposed to get out and vote. Ever since it's just felt more like a PAC than anything else.

smackeyacky 5y ago
Religion was always political. We're still in living memory of highly sectarian societies where, for example in Australia, a Catholic was a lower social grade than Church of England and being a Methodist was something else entirely. All of these groups voted differently, associated differently and married differently. This hung on longer in small towns in Australia but was a definite societal attribute right up until the mid-1960s where it started to break down. We had waves of social change that barely shook that structure: Catholic churches and schools were once almost exclusively Irish, but the immigration from Italy during the 1940s/1950s changed that ethnic mixture significantly with barely a murmur to the social structure or how those people voted (predominantly aligned with the left for working class reasons). The church publically told them how to vote and they did it. As older churches like the Methodists disappeared (or were subsumed into more liberal church traditions) and the left started embracing social reforms (no-fault divorce, womens liberation, abortion, birth control, the breakdown of racial segregation) the religious part of society bifurcated: the more religious folk went to the right and the less religious folk just started walking away from church. That division was the end of organised religion as a driving social force. Now, the thing most christians seem to despise the most is other christians of a slightly different faith. Most organised religions have only themselves to blame for their quickly falling church attendance for that reason.
- somethoughts 5y ago
  I'd layer on that "Religion was always political... but in the US it didn't need to be overtly political". By that I'd say since the silent majority of the population was Protestant then dominant Protestant religion would freely be intertwined with government. It's only when there is no longer a dominant Protestant religion that Religion becomes visible in politics.

jlos 5y ago

My working theory for the growth in the religiously unaffiliated is that they demographic of people who would have been nominal religious attendees a few decades ago. The number of people who attend church weekly (i.e. those with strong religious affiliation) has been basically static for a while now [0]. You could say that there is a difference between those with "weak" religious affiliation and those with "weekly" religious affiliation ;) I think this migration to no religious affiliation is probably due (or accelerated) by the internet. Sociologists of Religion such as Peter Berger suggest that a group of people holding a particular worldview create a social structure for the plausibility of the beliefs that underly the worldview. Exposure to more groups means you have more choice, and in fact must chose, between worldviews. The internet opens up a much larger number of plausibility structures which will be the most enticing to those with loose religious affiliation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance

jl6 5y ago

Meanwhile religiosity is going nowhere: repetition of mantras, hostility towards science that doesn’t support preconceptions, shaming and shunning of outgroups, tribal loyalty, purity purges, supplication before power, confession of sins, forbidden words, tolerance of incoherence… these are all distinctly religious behaviors that seem to be living on happily without the need for the traditional religions that used to host them.

bko 5y ago
I've heard the difference between ideology and religion is that religion asks you to make personal sacrifices, while ideology asks everyone else to make sacrifices for you. We have a lot of people that adhere to an ideology over religion > tolerance of incoherence Do you really think we're living in an overly tolerant society?
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  No need for oversimplifications. Plenty of very popular religions call for taking from others, by divine 'right' or to distribute divine justice.
  - throwawaygal7 5y ago
    I'm trying to think of examples, for instance is this a main theme in any Eastern religions? Islam? I guess you could kinda say that about the conquest of the Holy land in the Old Testament, but I think that's a specific case not a general principle of taking from others by divine right. What examples were you thinking of?
    - trasz 5y ago
      It's certainly the case in Christianity; see all kinds of morally-repulsive rules (discrimination against LGBT, abortion bans) enforced on non-believers by Church-sponsored state laws.
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago

trees101 5y ago

A useful way to think about religion, is to acknowledge that there are certain universal human features that never go away. For example, there will always be a highest principle by which a person's life is ordered (if they seem to change a lot, that highest principle might be their Self). It is very useful to consciously think about and cultivate the way that we might recognise our highest value, and the way we interact with it. We should realise potentially negative consequences of having the wrong thing for our highest value. This type of consideration is best classified differently to other life questions, and historically questions like this have been classified using the term "religious". This "highest value" is a placeholder in the human mind that Christianity would claim should be occupied by God. Once you reframe the conversation like this, you realise that there is no such thing as "non religious" people, and in fact denying a religious aspect of life is a form of suppression that could cause damage, because driving the most important questions of life into the subconscious realm makes a person vulnerable to ideological possession, e.g. through politics.

foogazi 5y ago
> Once you reframe the conversation Sure, move the goalposts and everyone scores
acchow 5y ago
> For example, there will always be a highest principle by which a person's life is ordered https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png
- trees101 5y ago
  isn't it just obvious? We have to make decisions. Each decision is made (consciously or subconsciously) by weighing up the predicted outcome according to a set of values. Those values inevitably conflict, so they have in turn to be judged by a yet higher value. And so on until there is a top value. You might think that some people change their values on a whim, but that in fact shows that something like their Self is their top value. Unless our behaviour was completely random, I don't know how this could be any other way. If you insist on a citation, I'll refer to St Augustine. Here's a popular culture level article about it https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustine-sin-quote_n_56980d51e4b0778f46f8b931 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustine-sin-quote_n_56980d5...

padobson 5y ago

As the non-affiliated grow, this poll is starting to create more questions than answers. I think the vast mix of responses in this comments section shows that. In the 2021 NPORS, 4% of respondents describe themselves as atheists (up from 2% in 2011), and 5% describe themselves as agnostics (up from 3% a decade ago). One-in-five U.S. adults (20%) now describe their religion as “nothing in particular,” In the same way the poll is curious about Protestant vs. Catholic, and Mainline vs Evangelical/Born Again, I'd sure like to know a little bit more about the "nothing in particular" group - especially when 13% of them are praying on a daily basis. Who are the two percent of people responding to this survey who have no religion and pray every day? Is it none because they think religion is evil? Are they indifferent? Are they spiritual but think organized religion is unnecessary? Are they unaffiliated for intellectual reasons? Or have they never been exposed to religion at all and are mildly curious?

geekbird 5y ago
Maybe they are just not Christian, but still pray in their religion. Maybe they are agnostic and still want to try to have a connection with the divine, but not within an organized religion complete with dogma.
BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
> Who are the two percent of people responding to this survey who have no religion and pray every day? They might eat with their family, who are religious, and go along with the prayer because they think the slight inconvenience isn't worth rocking the boat over.
Ensorceled 5y ago
> Who are the two percent of people responding to this survey who have no religion and pray every day? Nothing in particular is very different than being atheist/agnostic. In general they are dissatisfied with organized religion or believe it is actually evil. I know several people who would describe themselves as "christian" but left the Catholic Church during the paedophilia scandal and, hence, would describe themselves as "nothing in particular". Some of them see "The Church" as evil now. I also know people who firmly believe there is a higher power guiding the world but don't have a particular god in mind. I also know quite a few people who believe in a Christian God but find all of the organized religions very unpalatable and hypocritical.

tuyguntn 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_suicides_in_the_United_States_1981_2016.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_suicides_in_the_Uni... This graph seems to be correlated. I think humans are still irrational species and trying to make us 100% rational has some consequences. I think religion is something good to keep people calm and caring about each other and helps mentally keep up with real world issues. Couldn't find similar graph for burnout rate, but from what I read recently it is increasing every year as well.

protoax 5y ago
There are thousands of different graphs that correlate with that one. I don’t think I need to give the whole “correlation ≠ causation” line again.

wombatmobile 5y ago

> Currently, 60% of Protestants say “yes” when asked whether they think of themselves as a “born-again or evangelical Christian,” So, the data comes from self-reporting, not from an external or objectively calibrated method. This makes it difficult to interpret the trend line of this data. Are we observing a shift in religiosity, or a change in the definition of the terms?

tzs 5y ago
What would be an "external or objectively calibrated method" to determine what someone thinks of themselves as?
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  There isn't one. Ergo, what is being measured or tallied is not an internal state, but just a social and/or political identification. It's important to be aware of that limitation of the data.
rsynnott 5y ago
> So, the data comes from self-reporting, not from an external or objectively calibrated method I'm not sure that there's a particularly effective lab test for whether someone's an evangelical Protestant... I suppose you could give people an exam, but what you'd find generally is that most people have almost no idea of the religion they identify as.

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throwawaylolz 5y ago

3 in 10. I mean I don't believe it by any means, but imagine that. In saying that, I would likely want to believe in a deity if I was praying for cancer treatment that I couldn't afford as well whilst the stress of wondering how my family would survive crushed me into the dirt and all I needed was some vacation time to sort my head out and as I looked around, people were wearing MAGA hats. Meanwhile those with drive were looking upto Steve Jobs as an idol who with infinite money, prayed to fruit or something idiotic like that? Oh god it's so fucking tragic and depressing.

cletus 5y ago

From my experience, the US is unique among developed countries in how effectively religion has been weaponized and has permeated its way into politics. Combine that with the electoral college system and we have minority rule by declining but increasingly radical evangelicals [1]. This Faustian bargain with Trump largely explains his election victory in 2016 and his near-victory in 2020. I've never seen anything like this elsewhere. Obviously there are religious troubles elsewhere eg the Republicans (Catholics) against the Unionists (Protestants) in Northern Ireland. I grew up in Australia and we just don't have this radicalism. Abortion isn't a defining hot-button issue. The issue of gay marriage was settled by a popular vote and then largely considered settled and most people just moved on. I, personally, don't really care what anyone's religion is. That's your choice. But where I draw the line is when that minority tries to enforce their religious view into law. SCOTUS's unwillingness to act against Texas's SB8 bill (where normally they'd stay it pending full review, particularly when it so flagrantly violated 50 years of established constitutional precedent) is shocking and deeply disturbing. So where I otherwise wouldn't care, I'm pleased to see the decline in this article of evangelicals in particular. [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2021/05/evangelicals-republican-voters/618845/ https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2021/05/evangel...

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Thorentis 5y ago

Unfortunately, very little has filled the void left by religion, and I think this is having a profound negative effect on society. Churches used to (and still do) provide: a local support network, initiation rituals for children (giving them a sense of belonging - something very important and very lacking in our Western culture without religion) , a social outlet and place to make friends, often have free to use facilities for members so you can have events there like weddings, funerals, birthdays, a shared experience that gives people a sense of belonging, etc. People might say that these things have all been replaced by other things, and while that might be possible if you go out of your way to find a replacement for each and every one, humans are quite lazy and very few people ever do this. Being part of a church or other religious group gives you all this for free, and despite the other negatives, I think that is a huge positive that many people are starting to miss out on.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
After 30y in the church I'd trade all the mediocre benefits to get back all the time and peace of mind that was lost.
- etempleton 5y ago
  This. I got absolutely nothing from religion and I tried throughout my whole adolecence. Went to Church every week. It never made sense to me. I never felt the faith, or the community, or anything. I just don’t think I am wired for religion.
  - tsol 5y ago
    People keep equating Christianity with the concept of religion. It is a religion, sure, but only one particular religion. But it's a bit like saying "I dated Christy she just wasted 10 years of my life, it's clear I must be aromantic"
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      Some of us have explored other religions as well. Most seem to rely on unprovable claims that must be taken on faith, or experiences that cannot be quantified or tested in any meaningful sense. As far as I'm concerned the scientific method is a far more productive and fulfilling way to live and solve problems.

moosebear847 5y ago

Why I am not religous: 1. Leap of faith is risky, while science is based on repeatable experiments. Kind of like when you're building a house, instead of hoping and praying the foundation is stable, test it to be certain. 2. Who knows who made these stories up? Could have been some guy high on mushrooms. I'd rather decide what's right for myself than blindly follow some unknown-source, unchanging-with-the-world and unexplained statements some dude probably made up. I do agree with most of the ethics and morals of Christianity and similar religions. Society would probably be better if everyone abided by it. But if they abide through religion then people would also be a little crazy because they're willing to believe things without proper supporting evidence. What if the leader of the church says, "Yo God hit me up and said if we drown all non-believers in the holy pool tonight, we'll be chilling in heaven by this time tomorrow." I would want to know that my friends would act rationally and not do crazy things.

honkycat 5y ago

A lot of religion is an openly corrupt parody of itself. Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Falwell Jr. All of the scandals with the catholic priests and the subsequent cover-up. The catholic church and their genocide of indigenous cultures. The stadium-sized mega churches, and their millionaire pastors with their private jets. A lot of culture has become more accepting while religion remains intolerant due to the initial texts being written 2000 years ago. The bible is pro-slavery, it is anti-gay, its values due not meet the standards of modern society. We now have cameras and proof of everything. Proof of the supernatural has not materialized. It used to be easier to claim you saw an angel on the pulpit when people couldn't ask: "Where was your cellphone?" I grew up in a rural community, I went to multiple churches growing up. I've been inside. There is intolerance. People love to say "hate the sin not the sinner" but that is cold comfort for a gay teenager who someone will invariably take it upon themselves to convert, or use their religion as a justification to persecute them. At the end of the day, for me, there is no proof, and I see nothing to admire in the whole enterprise.

throwawaygal7 5y ago
Could you list specific genocides you feel were mandated by the catholic church? What were the motives of the church to commit genocide? Are you conflating the Spanish and Portuguese conquests with catholic church mandated genocide? I used to be of your view but now I look at the Jesuit reductions and wonder if I might have been inheriting some black legend ideas from the last couple centuries.
- honkycat 5y ago
  - Catholic schools in Ireland - Catholic schools in Canada - Catholic schools in Australia - The Nyarubuye massacre Or do things conducted by catholic organizations on catholic property not meet your goalpost?
  - throwawaygal7 5y ago
    And you think the above are genocides like the Armenian genocide or the holocaust? Organized and mandated as an official part of the church trying to eliminate a certain ethnic or national group? The only one that seems to fit the bill is the ethnic cleansing in Rawanda which didn't enjoy support of the international church hierarchy and is pretty recent. EDIT: This is actually a terrible example, the massacre happened at a catholic church where lay people and religious sisters were killed by another ethnic group. this is not fairly a 'catholic church' genocide but rather a masssacre at a catholic church during an existing genocide. Was the purpose and intent of the school systems were to kill the pupils? I'm unconcinced the narrarive around the schools in Canada is pretty weak too - theres really no way to call that a genocide without deliberately hiding some or all of the facts. I'll have to double check but I think you're stretching things a good bit.

dghughes 5y ago

There's nothing wrong with not being religious but to me it seems the ethics and morals void hasn't been filled. Doing the right thing even if you don't have to seems to be mocked these days. Someone buys 100 hard drives because a pricing error that person is cheered as a hero not as opportunistic. And really sports is the new religion it seems to be similar in mentality.

Animats 5y ago

It's not about theology. It's about politics. "As political scientist David Campbell of Notre Dame demonstrated in a recent essay, the perceived confluence between Evangelicalism and the most reactionary forces in the Republican party is a major reason for the upsurge in the percentage of Americans who self-identify as nonreligious or wholly secular." [1] https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/05/28/evangelicals-trump-and-how-politics-shapes-religion-not-the-other-way-around/ https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/05/28/evangelicals-trump-...

biophysboy 5y ago
American religions are fairly thin on explicit theology, because they are so individualist and transcendental. Whats the point of making a canon if you have the power of a spiritual witness? My view is that the unique, "democratized" nature of American religion made it more vulnerable to political opportunism because this theological vaccuum existed.

Fezzik 5y ago

Whenever I read about the too-slow demise of religion it warms the cockles of my heart and I am reminded of the insightful words of Robert Ingersoll (and I challenge anyone to find any scripture that meets his words in inspiration, hope and joy): ‘When I became convinced that the Universe is natural -- that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world -- not even in infinite space. I was free -- free to think, to express my thoughts -- free to live to my own ideal -- free to live for myself and those I loved -- free to use all my faculties, all my senses -- free to spread imagination's wings -- free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope -- free to judge and determine for myself -- free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the "inspired" books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past -- free from popes and priests -- free from all the "called" and "set apart" -- free from sanctified mistakes and holy lies -- free from the fear of eternal pain -- free from the winged monsters of the night -- free from the devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the realms of thought -- no air, no space, where fancy could not spread her painted wings -- no chains for my limbs -- no lashes for my back -- no fires for my flesh -- no master's frown or threat -- no following another's steps -- no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds. And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain -- for the freedom of labor and thought -- to those who fell in the fierce fields of war, to those who died in dungeons bound with chains -- those those who proudly mounted scaffold's stairs -- to those whose bones were crushed, whose flesh was scarred and torn -- to those by fire consumed -- to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then I vowed to grasp the torch that they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still. Let us be true to ourselves -- true to the facts we know, and let us, above all things, preserve the veracity of our souls. If there be gods we cannot help them, but we can assist our fellow-men. We cannot love the inconceivable, but we can love wife and child and friend. We can be honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know. We can tell the truth, and we can enjoy the blessed freedom that the brave have won. We can destroy the monsters of superstition, the hissing snakes of ignorance and fear. We can drive from our minds the frightful things that tear and wound with beak and fang. We can civilize our fellow-men. We can fill our lives with generous deeds, with loving words, with art and song, and all the ecstasies of love. We can flood our year with sunshine -- with the divine climate of kindness, and we can drain to the last drop the golden cup of joy.’

olliej 5y ago

How much of this is because in America the loudest religious voices: * deny science * attack the basic rights of other people * aggressively push for laws based on their own religious beliefs at the expense of everyone else Etc Given that most studies have shown younger people are more likely to accept science, other people, etc this could simply be reflective of people not wanting to be associated with the loud people.

zw123456 5y ago

I think there are a couple of things at play here. Full disclosure, I have no data to substantiate by "hunch" but I think it would be interesting to see if there is a way of testing it. My theory is that, as society becomes more accepting of "unaffiliated" more people admit it. I think the parallel is that we have always, most likely, had the same percentage of the population that is gay for example, but just more people feel safe to admit to it in a more open society that we have today. I think religion is similar in that; in the past, it would be a career killer or one would be confronted by other challenges if anyone were to discover or if you were to admit to being and atheist, agnostic, unaffiliated or whatever label. Today, most people in westernized nations, feel free to admit it, but, again, just a hunch, but I am willing to bet that say, 100 years ago, there were plenty of people who had significant doubts but knew that if they didn't want to end up on fire tied to a steak, best to keep it to one's self.

TingPing 5y ago
I also think it's often subconscious. The default was to associate with one even if you had no real involvement or beliefs.
Ensorceled 5y ago
> I think religion is similar in that; in the past, it would be a career killer or one would be confronted by other challenges if anyone were to discover or if you were to admit to being and atheist, agnostic, unaffiliated or whatever label. This is very true. I've been an atheist for 40 years and it's really only been the past 10 years or so where being openly atheist doesn't trigger negative responses. In Canada. I'm not sure I'd be openly atheist in the US South.
- zw123456 5y ago
  I became an atheist when I was 14 years old and I was forced to attend confirmation. I asked questions repeatedly about simple obvious things such as dinosaurs and how did they get on that ark, what about kangaroos did that ark get all the away to Australia, lots of obvious questions. I was kicked out of confirmation for asking too many questions. My Father thought it was hilarious at the time, then my parents divorced and he, who joked about how stupid religion is, then married his second wife who was evangelical, suddenly, he was a believer. Interesting, here is a person who, jokeed about how religion was for people with weak minds, suddenly becomes a true believer. My conclusion, from this and a lot of other examples I could bored everyone with, people "believe" when it benefits them, financially, socially, emotionally, sexually, etc.

mullingitover 5y ago

It's pretty clear to me how this happens, I'm one of those people who became unaffiliated. I was raised in a religious household. I got fed a lot of objectively weird things from my parents' religion: - The pope is the antichrist - The Catholic Church, according to biblical prophecy, will force everyone to attend church on Sunday - If you comply with this and don't become a martyr, you will not be saved These are the Seventh-Day Adventists' beliefs, and this is a pretty mainstream protestant religion in the US. They run a whole huge health care system and they have millions of members and vast amounts of real estate, yet their actual beliefs are objectively totally nuts to me. This is how a lot of the religions sound, when you take a step back they're pure crazy talk wrapped up in some common sense "don't be a jerk" teachings. If you go back a few hundred years, you'd just be murdered by your neighbors if you came out and said their beliefs are crazy. In a lot of the world today you'll get this treatment. The people who are able to escape this stuff are enjoying a luxury that is rare in the history of the world.

unnamed76ri 5y ago
For what it’s worth, most of Christianity would not consider many Seventh Day Adventist beliefs to be pretty mainstream.
- mullingitover 5y ago
  There are more Adventists than Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Southern Baptists, etc. Most of Christianity's different sects agree that they're the normal ones, by 'mainstream' I just mean that people aren't going to treat you like a cult member at work if you're part of that religion.

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RappingBoomer 5y ago

religion is not spirituality...and humans are evolved to have a spiritual component to their psyche...typically, as humans age, they have a spiritual/religious epiphany...in america, it's usually associated with the christian bible...this is how they dampen their fear of death as they age

dpweb 5y ago

Interesting about prayer as it seems positive visualization, law of attraction type mental activities seem to be more popular than they were 20-30 years ago, by people who would never call themselves religious. I’ve always found them to be similar. I think rituals similar to religious rituals but not religion per se come in to fill the void where organized religious practice used to be.

prirun 5y ago

We're not supposed to be racist, yet Pew Research Center publishes this report broken down between whites and blacks. It's pretty difficult to treat everyone alike when we're always being bombarded by media contrasting our differences.

usefulcat 5y ago

This may be techically correct, but I suspect it fails to take into account that political affiliation is the new religion in the US.

bananapub 5y ago

70% of Americans are religiously affiliated? that's amazing.

alpineidyll3 5y ago

Wow. only 3/10... I live in an echo chamber I guess. I would have guessed 6/10.

nikolay 5y ago

And how is this a good thing?!