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>"Lieber also joined China's Thousand Talents Plan, a Chinese-government run program designed to entice scientists and researchers in the United States to share

>"Lieber also joined China's Thousand Talents Plan, a Chinese-government run program designed to entice scientists and researchers in the United States to share their research expertise with China," said U.S. Attorney Andrew Lelling, announcing the charges. "Boston is an especially attractive target for this kind of exploitation and universities must become sensitized to this threat." But why is this a threat in the first place? Its never explained and assumed to be bad because "China"? This is completely absurd. I can understand the hiding the income angle for tax purposes, but sharing scientific information is not a threat. This is absurd

oxymoran 5y ago
It is absolutely a threat if it can be weaponized. It’s also a threat to give an authoritarian country that has every ambition to become the global superpower, our scientific discoveries. Let’s be real, what info is China sharing with us? Or is it really about China amassing information and not really about sharing at all?
bostonsre 5y ago
Is it normal for researchers to get paid that much money directly to one of their bank accounts for collaborating with outside universities? If it's not normal, doesn't that smell a whole lot like a bribe to you? It could be benign I guess but it definitely could also be a state sponsored or run operation to steal tech. It's not like China doesn't and hasn't pilfered outside businesses for their own interests.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  IP law is what it is, but you can make very good arguments that it (esp patents) doesn't actually help society at large, and that it shouldn't exist in its current form. I think you'll find a lot of people on HN who would back that. Somehow when it comes to China, people grab for any excuse to criticize them and "stealing tech" is one of them. Certainly it is possible to come about knowledge by nefarious means, but that doesn't mean that it isn't legitimate for China to try to learn things from other people. As for some professor getting paid, tech profs can be a pretty hot commodity, so it's not in itself surprising that a prof is making big bucks teaching people about his subject and perhaps also introducing his network.
  - zpeti 5y ago
    This is all very nice and for example Apple could share all their IP and give away their iPhone IP to china IF THEY WANT TO. It's a free world (in the US anyway). But that's not what is going on here. In the current framework we live in, there is IP and there is knowledge and that knowledge is funded and worked on under certain rules. If you break those rules there are consequences.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      That is not the framework we have. National sovereignty exists and if the Chinese don't want to follow IP law in some way that is their right. Most third world countries wish they couldn't, they just get strongarmed. It's not a free world when the US and Europe are trying to impose their laws on you, and if you refuse to follow their laws then their citizens are prohibited from dealing with yours.
      - ehvatum 5y ago
        It is the framework we have; as a result of China’s WTO accession, that’s the framework. They literally agreed to an IP framework.
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        Then you can try to convince the WTO to impose consequences if it really is the framework. In reality while this would work for a weaker developing country it probably won't work here.
      - BobbyJo 5y ago
        China might be sovereign, but the professor isn't. Notice how China isn't expected to show up in court.
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        The professor is not accused of IP offenses. This is a few steps removed from that.
dr-detroit 5y ago
These professors who take money from these programs such as Confucius institute are given a list of subjects they are either not allowed to comment on or they have to echo the party line. The CCCP government is writing mainstream US curriculum because they own all our schools and profs.
refurb 5y ago
Weird you can’t see the issue when the university he was a professor in AND the grants he received from the federal government explicitly forbid taking outside money without notification/approval.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  >The National Science Foundation and National Institutes of Health do allow professors to be part of foreign talent programs, but require they disclose it. So the issue is not the country (China) or the fact that he joined a foreign program. The issue is the nondisclosure. From my first quoted example, the tone implies that the issue is China itself which is where I got that impression.
  - naruvimama 5y ago
    China has surpassed the US economically, it has made it clear it wants to dominate the technology space. While we are in denial, it is clear even to naive Chinese that they are at war with the US when it comes to technology. The only upper hand that the US has over China is the decades of research expertise in core areas. It looks like the professor was targeted to transfer this expertise to the Chinese. No different from flying a chief scientist from your competing company to help setup a lab like the original, IP at risk or not is irrelevant.
    - Sebb767 5y ago
      > China has surpassed the US economically, it has made it clear it wants to dominate the technology space. What? Should the stun their growth so that they can show their obedience? This does not make any sense. > While we are in denial, it is clear even to naive Chinese that they are at war with the US when it comes to technology. The only upper hand that the US has over China is the decades of research expertise in core areas. It's quite obvious why they want to have tech on their own, since that's basically what makes a nation first world. That doesn't mean that there's any war going on. Do you think you're at war with the EU, too, due to the Euro and their economic growth?
    - 5y ago
smt88 5y ago
The Thousand Talents Plan is a transparent attempt by the CCP to accumulate economic and military power. It isn't bad because "China," it's bad because it increases the power of an authoritarian, imperial-minded, genocidal government.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  How this is not blatantly the issue blows my mind. I guess CCP international propaganda campaigns are working.
  - throwaway4good 5y ago
    It is a part of the industrial policy of China that broadly raises living standard and wealth of the society. It also opens up the Chinese society for foreign influence and sends millions abroad for studies. The idea that this is to "increase the power of the CCP" is only true in sense that economic growth may increase the ruling party's popularity. In classic dictatorship thinking sending your best students abroad and accepting foreign educators is the last thing you would want to do.
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      Sending your best abroad while you hold their family at gunpoint locally is how you cultivate absolute loyalty and subvert adversarial thought and nations. The best way to defeat your enemy is to understand them. That's why you consistently see Chinese born, US citizens with decades of time in the states prosecuted for espionage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_t...
    - smt88 5y ago
      > It is a part of the industrial policy of China that broadly raises living standard and wealth of the society. I agree. It doesn't contradict what I said, though. Both are true. > only true in sense that economic growth may increase the ruling party's popularity No. It also gives them better weapons, AI, surveillance technology, etc. It literally increases their power, both abroad and within their borders. CCP's popularity is guaranteed because it is criminal in China to tell negative truths about them. Their popularity is irrelevant because they have control over the entire country's military and surveillance networks. If they can intern and slaughter millions of Uyghurs, it's almost impossible for a rebellion to overthrow them. They don't need this program for popularity.
abdel_nasser 5y ago
when country A inserts itself into the affairs of country B, especially internal structures like the academic establishment, that is a material threat to country B no matter how you slice it. if enough influence is gained on the part of country A then it becomes an existential threat and so keeping these kinds of things to a minimum is an objectively high priority for any country that wants to preserve itself. There are no two countries that can trust each other completely because the global geo-political landscape is always changing and changing in unpredictable ways. what is absurd is your juvenile understanding of international affairs, history and game theory.
kube-system 5y ago
Disclosure of funding is kind of important for academic research, as money can influence results. If there’s nothing fishy going on, then why lie about it when asked?
ximeng 5y ago
There’s a massive legal and societal infrastructure built up around controlling access to information: patents, copyright, trademarks, libel, “cancelling”, obscenity, non-disclosure, trade secrets, security clearances, professional licensing, peer review. China is a threat to this to the extent they can build up a second independent system that rivals it.
wyuenho 5y ago
Because China doesn't share its state of the art research with everyone else. If you want to lose, share everything and expect nothing in return.
- samhw 5y ago
  > If you want to lose, share everything and expect nothing in return. Interesting philosophy from someone with their open source projects on their profile...
  - wyuenho 5y ago
    That open source experience was what led me to this new life philosophy.
helen___keller 5y ago
As far as I can tell, the issue is specifically about making false statements. Lieber was involved NIH funding, and as part of that had to disclose any foreign links, so being involved in thousand talents counts. It’s unclear to me whether there would have been any issues or failure to obtain funding if Lieber had identified himself as associated with Wuhan University of Technology and with the Thousand Talents as the indictment claims he should have. Of course the case has opened the doors for the ubiquitous “China bad” vs “China good” culture war

oxymoran 5y ago

It is absolutely a threat if it can be weaponized. It’s also a threat to give an authoritarian country that has every ambition to become the global superpower, our scientific discoveries. Let’s be real, what info is China sharing with us? Or is it really about China amassing information and not really about sharing at all?

bostonsre 5y ago

Is it normal for researchers to get paid that much money directly to one of their bank accounts for collaborating with outside universities? If it's not normal, doesn't that smell a whole lot like a bribe to you? It could be benign I guess but it definitely could also be a state sponsored or run operation to steal tech. It's not like China doesn't and hasn't pilfered outside businesses for their own interests.

lordnacho 5y ago
IP law is what it is, but you can make very good arguments that it (esp patents) doesn't actually help society at large, and that it shouldn't exist in its current form. I think you'll find a lot of people on HN who would back that. Somehow when it comes to China, people grab for any excuse to criticize them and "stealing tech" is one of them. Certainly it is possible to come about knowledge by nefarious means, but that doesn't mean that it isn't legitimate for China to try to learn things from other people. As for some professor getting paid, tech profs can be a pretty hot commodity, so it's not in itself surprising that a prof is making big bucks teaching people about his subject and perhaps also introducing his network.
- zpeti 5y ago
  This is all very nice and for example Apple could share all their IP and give away their iPhone IP to china IF THEY WANT TO. It's a free world (in the US anyway). But that's not what is going on here. In the current framework we live in, there is IP and there is knowledge and that knowledge is funded and worked on under certain rules. If you break those rules there are consequences.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    That is not the framework we have. National sovereignty exists and if the Chinese don't want to follow IP law in some way that is their right. Most third world countries wish they couldn't, they just get strongarmed. It's not a free world when the US and Europe are trying to impose their laws on you, and if you refuse to follow their laws then their citizens are prohibited from dealing with yours.
    - ehvatum 5y ago
      It is the framework we have; as a result of China’s WTO accession, that’s the framework. They literally agreed to an IP framework.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        Then you can try to convince the WTO to impose consequences if it really is the framework. In reality while this would work for a weaker developing country it probably won't work here.
    - BobbyJo 5y ago
      China might be sovereign, but the professor isn't. Notice how China isn't expected to show up in court.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        The professor is not accused of IP offenses. This is a few steps removed from that.

dr-detroit 5y ago

These professors who take money from these programs such as Confucius institute are given a list of subjects they are either not allowed to comment on or they have to echo the party line. The CCCP government is writing mainstream US curriculum because they own all our schools and profs.

refurb 5y ago

Weird you can’t see the issue when the university he was a professor in AND the grants he received from the federal government explicitly forbid taking outside money without notification/approval.

netizen-936824 5y ago
>The National Science Foundation and National Institutes of Health do allow professors to be part of foreign talent programs, but require they disclose it. So the issue is not the country (China) or the fact that he joined a foreign program. The issue is the nondisclosure. From my first quoted example, the tone implies that the issue is China itself which is where I got that impression.
- naruvimama 5y ago
  China has surpassed the US economically, it has made it clear it wants to dominate the technology space. While we are in denial, it is clear even to naive Chinese that they are at war with the US when it comes to technology. The only upper hand that the US has over China is the decades of research expertise in core areas. It looks like the professor was targeted to transfer this expertise to the Chinese. No different from flying a chief scientist from your competing company to help setup a lab like the original, IP at risk or not is irrelevant.
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    > China has surpassed the US economically, it has made it clear it wants to dominate the technology space. What? Should the stun their growth so that they can show their obedience? This does not make any sense. > While we are in denial, it is clear even to naive Chinese that they are at war with the US when it comes to technology. The only upper hand that the US has over China is the decades of research expertise in core areas. It's quite obvious why they want to have tech on their own, since that's basically what makes a nation first world. That doesn't mean that there's any war going on. Do you think you're at war with the EU, too, due to the Euro and their economic growth?
  - 5y ago

smt88 5y ago

The Thousand Talents Plan is a transparent attempt by the CCP to accumulate economic and military power. It isn't bad because "China," it's bad because it increases the power of an authoritarian, imperial-minded, genocidal government.

defaultprimate 5y ago
How this is not blatantly the issue blows my mind. I guess CCP international propaganda campaigns are working.
- throwaway4good 5y ago
  It is a part of the industrial policy of China that broadly raises living standard and wealth of the society. It also opens up the Chinese society for foreign influence and sends millions abroad for studies. The idea that this is to "increase the power of the CCP" is only true in sense that economic growth may increase the ruling party's popularity. In classic dictatorship thinking sending your best students abroad and accepting foreign educators is the last thing you would want to do.
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    Sending your best abroad while you hold their family at gunpoint locally is how you cultivate absolute loyalty and subvert adversarial thought and nations. The best way to defeat your enemy is to understand them. That's why you consistently see Chinese born, US citizens with decades of time in the states prosecuted for espionage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_t...
  - smt88 5y ago
    > It is a part of the industrial policy of China that broadly raises living standard and wealth of the society. I agree. It doesn't contradict what I said, though. Both are true. > only true in sense that economic growth may increase the ruling party's popularity No. It also gives them better weapons, AI, surveillance technology, etc. It literally increases their power, both abroad and within their borders. CCP's popularity is guaranteed because it is criminal in China to tell negative truths about them. Their popularity is irrelevant because they have control over the entire country's military and surveillance networks. If they can intern and slaughter millions of Uyghurs, it's almost impossible for a rebellion to overthrow them. They don't need this program for popularity.

abdel_nasser 5y ago

when country A inserts itself into the affairs of country B, especially internal structures like the academic establishment, that is a material threat to country B no matter how you slice it. if enough influence is gained on the part of country A then it becomes an existential threat and so keeping these kinds of things to a minimum is an objectively high priority for any country that wants to preserve itself. There are no two countries that can trust each other completely because the global geo-political landscape is always changing and changing in unpredictable ways. what is absurd is your juvenile understanding of international affairs, history and game theory.

kube-system 5y ago

Disclosure of funding is kind of important for academic research, as money can influence results. If there’s nothing fishy going on, then why lie about it when asked?

ximeng 5y ago

There’s a massive legal and societal infrastructure built up around controlling access to information: patents, copyright, trademarks, libel, “cancelling”, obscenity, non-disclosure, trade secrets, security clearances, professional licensing, peer review. China is a threat to this to the extent they can build up a second independent system that rivals it.

wyuenho 5y ago

Because China doesn't share its state of the art research with everyone else. If you want to lose, share everything and expect nothing in return.

samhw 5y ago
> If you want to lose, share everything and expect nothing in return. Interesting philosophy from someone with their open source projects on their profile...
- wyuenho 5y ago
  That open source experience was what led me to this new life philosophy.

helen___keller 5y ago

As far as I can tell, the issue is specifically about making false statements. Lieber was involved NIH funding, and as part of that had to disclose any foreign links, so being involved in thousand talents counts. It’s unclear to me whether there would have been any issues or failure to obtain funding if Lieber had identified himself as associated with Wuhan University of Technology and with the Thousand Talents as the indictment claims he should have. Of course the case has opened the doors for the ubiquitous “China bad” vs “China good” culture war