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It seems to me that possibly the highest return on investment a government can do is investing in education. More intelligent people likely impacts tax revenue

It seems to me that possibly the highest return on investment a government can do is investing in education. More intelligent people likely impacts tax revenue, crime etc. does anyone know if there are studies done on this?

s5300 5y ago
Unfortunately for the United States, the last Secretary of Education was the heir to the largest MLM scheme in the nation (possibly world?) More intelligent people are likely a detriment to MLM revenue.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Let's be factual, she married into the MLM family riches. Her own family was super rich because of a patent which is a totally different scheme where you skim some wealth of lots of other people's work without really contributing anything to society.
  - vlovich123 5y ago
    That seems like an ungenerous characterization of patents. There are issues with them but I wouldn’t say that it’s primarily a mechanism to skim some wealth of lots of other people’s work.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      That's literally the original historical purpose, and some would argue still effectively is, but yeah patents have a great PR team.
- ryan93 5y ago
  Fortunately for the united states school is funded at the state level.
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    Unfortunately for the US "funding" can mean "public money is channeled to corporate monopolies which own various markets for teaching resources." It's also managed at the school level, which means all kinds of people with eccentric belief systems are motivated to take over school boards and force their issues on others. But elements of curriculum design are also created semi-centrally. So you can get the worst of all possible worlds, with corporations skimming money from classrooms while faddy ineffective teaching techniques collide with school board skirmishes.
    - ryan93 5y ago
      In Texas textbooks and curriculum is state level mostly. Idiots on school boards don’t have much to do with what is taught. And definitely not in important classes like math. And most funding goes to the schools not corporations
commandlinefan 5y ago
> investing in education You really think the problem is lack of investment? Education is insanely overfunded, but it still fails to provide its basic function - that is, of educating its consumers.
- abecedarius 5y ago
  I commend Caplan's The case against education to all the downvoters. The above comment might be wrong, but how sure are you it's so blatantly wrong it ought to be obliviated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_Education
- dota_fanatic 5y ago
  If it’s insanely overfunded, how come a career in tech is many multiples of income vs teaching? Good luck buying a decent home on a teacher’s salary in attractive areas. Inspire and grow the intelligence of the next generation? Nah, let’s sell ads and figure out how to make people spend more time on social media, getting rich in the process.
  - conanbatt 5y ago
    When you find out that one of the biggest investors in tech is the CA teacher pension fund
    - antishatter 5y ago
      When you consider if you were good at math in the 80’s being a math teacher wasn’t a bad job but now if you’re good at math you make double in tech….
      - actually_a_dog 5y ago
        Try more like triple, if this link is correct about starting teacher salary in SF: https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Teacher-Salary-in-San-Francisco,CA https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Teacher-Sa... They're claiming an average of about $40k, and $63k at the 90th percentile, for an "entry level teacher." However, note, the shape of the distribution is really, really freaking weird, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
luckydata 5y ago
You get more out of funding a good safety net so you don't send starving children to school and parents can spend time with their kids and get involved in their education.
- skybrian 5y ago
  Schools are that safety net, to some degree. They feed children and provide daycare, after all.
  - luckydata 5y ago
    are you trying to agree or disagree with me?
- AccountToUse 5y ago
  That safety net is part of education. Schools keep children off the streets for 7 hours a day, offer reduced lunch. Investing in a social safety net is code for investing in public education.
  - luckydata 5y ago
    I think it's dystopian that we give schools that job. Nobody should NEED to go to school to eat. And what about the parents?
Otek 5y ago
Education scales terribly because in every small town, for every subject, you need a teacher. The level of teaching varies widely, and teachers have no reason, other than ambition, for the quality of education they deliver to be top-notch. The purpose of education is also very widely misunderstood. I often see (for context: I'm in Eastern Europe) regrets that the education process does not provide valuable life skills, that there is too much focus on subjects like physics or biology. School teaches you to be systematic, to look for information, to know that even if you don't like or want to know something, you have to sit down and learn it. These are very important lessons that can later be translated into other "life skills".
- jacobedawson 5y ago
  Seems like education doesn't have to scale terribly - perhaps we should move to a system where the highest quality teachers produce content that can be asynchronously shared globally (think Masterclass, language permitting), while the "in-house" teachers can work more as "guides". There'll still be a varied quality of in-house teaching, but at least the primary lessons could be world-class regardless of the location.
  - nradov 5y ago
    This has been happening for years. The highest quality teachers (for some definition of "quality") sell lesson plans to their peers. https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/ https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/
  - ovi256 5y ago
    > where the highest quality teachers produce content that can be asynchronously shared globally (think Masterclass, language permitting), while the "in-house" teachers can work more as "guides" Yes, that would be best, but that removes the most fun aspects of teaching (curriculum development, lecturing) from the local teachers, while leaving them the most draining (keeping students on task, discipline, keeping the classroom quiet).
  - watwut 5y ago
    "In-house" teachers are have been using asynchronous materials for decades now. Books were available since forever and videos for like two generations now.
cycomanic 5y ago
According to this Bloomberg report (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-01-23/spending-more-on-public-schools-boosts-u-s-economy https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-01-23/spending-...) 10 percent increased spending leads to "children to complete 0.27 more years of school, to make wages that are 7.25 percent higher"
whatever1 5y ago
Educated people require opportunities to use their brains though. If they don’t get these, they will not take manual labor, they will complain and then topple the regime. Uneducated people with a nice conservative religion is the way to go.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Sialkot, Pakistan would like a word with you.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- rmbyrro 5y ago
  It's really sad that we have to read thoughts like this in 2021, and makes me think what we need to do to help more people overcome selfishness.
  - whatever1 5y ago
    Then start with not voting for people who run on these ideas. (if you are lucky enough to have the privilege to select your government without a bloodshed)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
actually_a_dog 5y ago
One of the most effective investments in education we can make is in preschool education: > Although these elements can be expensive, “when well-implemented and supported by subsequent schooling, high-quality preschool can pay for itself. Studies of high-quality programs that have followed students into adulthood find up to $17 returned in social benefits for every dollar invested. This is because people who attend preschool are more productive in school, work, and society generally—with higher levels of education and earnings, less involvement in delinquency and crime, and fewer chronic health problems,” said W. Steven Barnett, Founder and Senior Co-Director of the National Institute for Early Education Research (NIEER) at Rutgers University. https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/press-release/what-does-research-really-say-about-preschool-effectiveness https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/press-release/what-does-...
comeonseriously 5y ago
I think this depends on if people want to govern or simply win elections. If one's goal is the latter, maybe smartening up your base is not a good thing.
disambiguation 5y ago
The difference between theory and practice... Education in the US has never been more accessible or more extensive, yet we have a massive student loan crisis ($1.71 trillion of debt) and we import more knowledge workers than we produce (~350k H-1B visas in 2016 and 2017). Maybe we're just "doing it wrong", but we're not yet seeing the fabled "highest return on investment".
AlchemistCamp 5y ago
Education, yes... but schooling, no.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
> It seems to me that possibly the highest return on investment a government can do is investing in education. More intelligent people likely impacts tax revenue, crime etc. does anyone know if there are studies done on this? I disagree, you don't need to have a smart society, you can have a moral society and that takes away a lot of government spending for the unruly. An overproduction of highly educated people doesn't make a society better if there isn't demand for those jobs.

s5300 5y ago

Unfortunately for the United States, the last Secretary of Education was the heir to the largest MLM scheme in the nation (possibly world?) More intelligent people are likely a detriment to MLM revenue.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Let's be factual, she married into the MLM family riches. Her own family was super rich because of a patent which is a totally different scheme where you skim some wealth of lots of other people's work without really contributing anything to society.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  That seems like an ungenerous characterization of patents. There are issues with them but I wouldn’t say that it’s primarily a mechanism to skim some wealth of lots of other people’s work.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    That's literally the original historical purpose, and some would argue still effectively is, but yeah patents have a great PR team.
ryan93 5y ago
Fortunately for the united states school is funded at the state level.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  Unfortunately for the US "funding" can mean "public money is channeled to corporate monopolies which own various markets for teaching resources." It's also managed at the school level, which means all kinds of people with eccentric belief systems are motivated to take over school boards and force their issues on others. But elements of curriculum design are also created semi-centrally. So you can get the worst of all possible worlds, with corporations skimming money from classrooms while faddy ineffective teaching techniques collide with school board skirmishes.
  - ryan93 5y ago
    In Texas textbooks and curriculum is state level mostly. Idiots on school boards don’t have much to do with what is taught. And definitely not in important classes like math. And most funding goes to the schools not corporations

commandlinefan 5y ago

> investing in education You really think the problem is lack of investment? Education is insanely overfunded, but it still fails to provide its basic function - that is, of educating its consumers.

abecedarius 5y ago
I commend Caplan's The case against education to all the downvoters. The above comment might be wrong, but how sure are you it's so blatantly wrong it ought to be obliviated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_Education
dota_fanatic 5y ago
If it’s insanely overfunded, how come a career in tech is many multiples of income vs teaching? Good luck buying a decent home on a teacher’s salary in attractive areas. Inspire and grow the intelligence of the next generation? Nah, let’s sell ads and figure out how to make people spend more time on social media, getting rich in the process.
- conanbatt 5y ago
  When you find out that one of the biggest investors in tech is the CA teacher pension fund
  - antishatter 5y ago
    When you consider if you were good at math in the 80’s being a math teacher wasn’t a bad job but now if you’re good at math you make double in tech….
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      Try more like triple, if this link is correct about starting teacher salary in SF: https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Teacher-Salary-in-San-Francisco,CA https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Teacher-Sa... They're claiming an average of about $40k, and $63k at the 90th percentile, for an "entry level teacher." However, note, the shape of the distribution is really, really freaking weird, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

luckydata 5y ago

You get more out of funding a good safety net so you don't send starving children to school and parents can spend time with their kids and get involved in their education.

skybrian 5y ago
Schools are that safety net, to some degree. They feed children and provide daycare, after all.
- luckydata 5y ago
  are you trying to agree or disagree with me?
AccountToUse 5y ago
That safety net is part of education. Schools keep children off the streets for 7 hours a day, offer reduced lunch. Investing in a social safety net is code for investing in public education.
- luckydata 5y ago
  I think it's dystopian that we give schools that job. Nobody should NEED to go to school to eat. And what about the parents?

Otek 5y ago

Education scales terribly because in every small town, for every subject, you need a teacher. The level of teaching varies widely, and teachers have no reason, other than ambition, for the quality of education they deliver to be top-notch. The purpose of education is also very widely misunderstood. I often see (for context: I'm in Eastern Europe) regrets that the education process does not provide valuable life skills, that there is too much focus on subjects like physics or biology. School teaches you to be systematic, to look for information, to know that even if you don't like or want to know something, you have to sit down and learn it. These are very important lessons that can later be translated into other "life skills".

jacobedawson 5y ago
Seems like education doesn't have to scale terribly - perhaps we should move to a system where the highest quality teachers produce content that can be asynchronously shared globally (think Masterclass, language permitting), while the "in-house" teachers can work more as "guides". There'll still be a varied quality of in-house teaching, but at least the primary lessons could be world-class regardless of the location.
- nradov 5y ago
  This has been happening for years. The highest quality teachers (for some definition of "quality") sell lesson plans to their peers. https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/ https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/
- ovi256 5y ago
  > where the highest quality teachers produce content that can be asynchronously shared globally (think Masterclass, language permitting), while the "in-house" teachers can work more as "guides" Yes, that would be best, but that removes the most fun aspects of teaching (curriculum development, lecturing) from the local teachers, while leaving them the most draining (keeping students on task, discipline, keeping the classroom quiet).
- watwut 5y ago
  "In-house" teachers are have been using asynchronous materials for decades now. Books were available since forever and videos for like two generations now.

cycomanic 5y ago

According to this Bloomberg report (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-01-23/spending-more-on-public-schools-boosts-u-s-economy https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-01-23/spending-...) 10 percent increased spending leads to "children to complete 0.27 more years of school, to make wages that are 7.25 percent higher"

whatever1 5y ago

Educated people require opportunities to use their brains though. If they don’t get these, they will not take manual labor, they will complain and then topple the regime. Uneducated people with a nice conservative religion is the way to go.

selimthegrim 5y ago
Sialkot, Pakistan would like a word with you.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rmbyrro 5y ago
It's really sad that we have to read thoughts like this in 2021, and makes me think what we need to do to help more people overcome selfishness.
- whatever1 5y ago
  Then start with not voting for people who run on these ideas. (if you are lucky enough to have the privilege to select your government without a bloodshed)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

actually_a_dog 5y ago

One of the most effective investments in education we can make is in preschool education: > Although these elements can be expensive, “when well-implemented and supported by subsequent schooling, high-quality preschool can pay for itself. Studies of high-quality programs that have followed students into adulthood find up to $17 returned in social benefits for every dollar invested. This is because people who attend preschool are more productive in school, work, and society generally—with higher levels of education and earnings, less involvement in delinquency and crime, and fewer chronic health problems,” said W. Steven Barnett, Founder and Senior Co-Director of the National Institute for Early Education Research (NIEER) at Rutgers University. https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/press-release/what-does-research-really-say-about-preschool-effectiveness https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/press-release/what-does-...

comeonseriously 5y ago

I think this depends on if people want to govern or simply win elections. If one's goal is the latter, maybe smartening up your base is not a good thing.

disambiguation 5y ago

The difference between theory and practice... Education in the US has never been more accessible or more extensive, yet we have a massive student loan crisis ($1.71 trillion of debt) and we import more knowledge workers than we produce (~350k H-1B visas in 2016 and 2017). Maybe we're just "doing it wrong", but we're not yet seeing the fabled "highest return on investment".

AlchemistCamp 5y ago

Education, yes... but schooling, no.

GhettoComputers 5y ago

> It seems to me that possibly the highest return on investment a government can do is investing in education. More intelligent people likely impacts tax revenue, crime etc. does anyone know if there are studies done on this? I disagree, you don't need to have a smart society, you can have a moral society and that takes away a lot of government spending for the unruly. An overproduction of highly educated people doesn't make a society better if there isn't demand for those jobs.