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Here's the thing. Developers are generally perfectionists and marketers are realists. As a Developer, I am naturally uncomfortable with marketing because my def

Here's the thing. Developers are generally perfectionists and marketers are realists. As a Developer, I am naturally uncomfortable with marketing because my default view is that I don't want to lie or over-promise and I don't like fluffy claims. Marketers and sales people can be less bothered about facts but I think much of the time, we just think that, the truth is that there can be a lot of fact-based marketing but also you just have to remember that your product will never be a perfect fit and neither are any of your competitors but you can sell anyway because you are making your customer's life better, not perfect! Imagine you are selling something like a Toyota SUV. Is it perfect? No. Is it the best price-point? Possibly not; the best MPG? Probably not but I am selling a package, a vehicle that ticks a lot of boxes for someone and ultimately something that is better than the competitors in some ways and worse in others. If I am uncomfortable selling the Toyota because the MPG isn't the best it could be, I am not saving the customer from disappointing MPG, I am pushing them to a competitor and taking away the benefits that they would get from a Toyota. If your product solves a problem, assuming it isn't garbage, then it will be better than competitors in some ways and worse in others. You can market it accordingly! Good luck.

libertine 5y ago
> my default view is that I don't want to lie or over-promise This is the greatest prejudice around marketing in the tech community. A simple exercise you can do that debunks that frame of thought: lies are unsustainable. Unless you're a government or a monopoly that has their predictable flow of revenue, lies aren't affordable. You can lie and scam people, but that's not a long term strategy, because you'll burn off customers, and complains, reports, refunds will start to creep in and - unless you're in China or some country that turns their sight away from these practices - you'll be burned. What you might think of lies is the way one can phrase a, for example, value proposition of a product: just because a big slice of applications are CRUD apps, that doesn't define them. It doesn't help anyone when it comes to perception, because that's what you have to work with - and perception is as good as reality. You can't work without the facts, because that's what people will have at the end. Picking on your example, there's more to a car than MPG - and even those variables sometimes are compromises. Imagine the Toyota SUV has an higher MPG because the car weights more due to some security features, and they place the SUV in the market as a SAFE SUV FOR FAMILIES. That's a fact (in our exercise). It's also a fact that it has high MPG, but you're not hiding it either, you have to display that information and you can even justify it, but you're not spending money to tell that. Why? Because you can only say much to grab people's attention and to deliver the right message to them. Attention is precious, you have micro seconds to snatch it and seconds to sustain it and deliver a message. Plus you can only factor in so many variables into a decision making process, you'll always make compromises as a customer. For a lot of people MPG isn't a problem. For some, it is. That's why there's so much variety in the market.
- biztos 5y ago
  > lies are unsustainable Lots of lies are perfectly sustainable, but I have a feeling they tend to be the flattering lies (to someone). We only hire the best.
- pjc50 5y ago
  > lies are unsustainable. All sorts of things are "unsustainable". It only has to be sustainable long enough to cash out.
  - libertine 5y ago
    Scams, frauds, all leverage false advertising. But just because they use marketing tools to achieve that objective, it doesn't make marketing "evil" or "all about lies" - hell they're surely also using some tech stack to have the whole operation going. Does that make tech evil, or a vehicle to spread lies, scams, frauds? No. It's just what people do with it.
    - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
      Any examples of marketeers in commercial companies refusing sales as a bad fit?
      - libertine 5y ago
        I don't understand your question, can you expand on it?
- CJefferson 5y ago
  I see Tesla's promises on self-driving cars over many years as lies. It doesn't see to have done them any harm so far.
  - libertine 5y ago
    Tesla or Elon promising? I know there's an barely visible line.
Auracle 5y ago
That’s good advice. I’m a developer and a photographer and a couple of months ago I had a wedding consult (sales meeting) where the fact that I’m not good at that portion came up for the reasons you mentioned. The potential client somewhat jokingly then asked “are you a good wedding photographer?” I’ve never had a question at a consult seize up my brain like that before. A good salesperson would have said “of course, and here’s why…”. I am not a good salesperson and floundered. Reflecting afterwards I realized the truthful answer isn’t that I’m a good wedding photographer, but that I’m a good wedding photographer for a particular subset of people.
granshaw 5y ago
It's likely your product serves a certain segment better than others. By targeting just that segment (assuming it's big and profitable enough) the "lies" factor is greatly reduced cause it is indeed a great fit for them Then it becomes purely a marketing problem... how can I make everyone in the world in this segment aware of my product? :)

libertine 5y ago

> my default view is that I don't want to lie or over-promise This is the greatest prejudice around marketing in the tech community. A simple exercise you can do that debunks that frame of thought: lies are unsustainable. Unless you're a government or a monopoly that has their predictable flow of revenue, lies aren't affordable. You can lie and scam people, but that's not a long term strategy, because you'll burn off customers, and complains, reports, refunds will start to creep in and - unless you're in China or some country that turns their sight away from these practices - you'll be burned. What you might think of lies is the way one can phrase a, for example, value proposition of a product: just because a big slice of applications are CRUD apps, that doesn't define them. It doesn't help anyone when it comes to perception, because that's what you have to work with - and perception is as good as reality. You can't work without the facts, because that's what people will have at the end. Picking on your example, there's more to a car than MPG - and even those variables sometimes are compromises. Imagine the Toyota SUV has an higher MPG because the car weights more due to some security features, and they place the SUV in the market as a SAFE SUV FOR FAMILIES. That's a fact (in our exercise). It's also a fact that it has high MPG, but you're not hiding it either, you have to display that information and you can even justify it, but you're not spending money to tell that. Why? Because you can only say much to grab people's attention and to deliver the right message to them. Attention is precious, you have micro seconds to snatch it and seconds to sustain it and deliver a message. Plus you can only factor in so many variables into a decision making process, you'll always make compromises as a customer. For a lot of people MPG isn't a problem. For some, it is. That's why there's so much variety in the market.

biztos 5y ago
> lies are unsustainable Lots of lies are perfectly sustainable, but I have a feeling they tend to be the flattering lies (to someone). We only hire the best.
pjc50 5y ago
> lies are unsustainable. All sorts of things are "unsustainable". It only has to be sustainable long enough to cash out.
- libertine 5y ago
  Scams, frauds, all leverage false advertising. But just because they use marketing tools to achieve that objective, it doesn't make marketing "evil" or "all about lies" - hell they're surely also using some tech stack to have the whole operation going. Does that make tech evil, or a vehicle to spread lies, scams, frauds? No. It's just what people do with it.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    Any examples of marketeers in commercial companies refusing sales as a bad fit?
    - libertine 5y ago
      I don't understand your question, can you expand on it?
CJefferson 5y ago
I see Tesla's promises on self-driving cars over many years as lies. It doesn't see to have done them any harm so far.
- libertine 5y ago
  Tesla or Elon promising? I know there's an barely visible line.

Auracle 5y ago

That’s good advice. I’m a developer and a photographer and a couple of months ago I had a wedding consult (sales meeting) where the fact that I’m not good at that portion came up for the reasons you mentioned. The potential client somewhat jokingly then asked “are you a good wedding photographer?” I’ve never had a question at a consult seize up my brain like that before. A good salesperson would have said “of course, and here’s why…”. I am not a good salesperson and floundered. Reflecting afterwards I realized the truthful answer isn’t that I’m a good wedding photographer, but that I’m a good wedding photographer for a particular subset of people.

granshaw 5y ago

It's likely your product serves a certain segment better than others. By targeting just that segment (assuming it's big and profitable enough) the "lies" factor is greatly reduced cause it is indeed a great fit for them Then it becomes purely a marketing problem... how can I make everyone in the world in this segment aware of my product? :)