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NASA's new sleeping bags could prevent eyeball 'squashing' on the ISS

mstank 5y ago
Is there a good list of major health issues associated with space flight? Would be interesting to see what still needs to be solved for multi-year stays.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_spaceflight_on_the_human_body https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_spaceflight_on_the_h...
  - thedudeabides5 5y ago
    Not comprehensive, but link between radiation - viruses - cancer here https://www.ted.com/talks/madison_campbell_viruses_in_space_cancer_at_home https://www.ted.com/talks/madison_campbell_viruses_in_space_...
    - ComputerGuru 5y ago
      ISS doesn’t have much radiation. It’s not the moon.
      - viburnum 5y ago
        Yeah, the ISS is barely even in space. You can go that far on a train before lunch.
conaclos 5y ago
Remind me of Misha who goes practically blind during his trip to Mars in series Away.
euroderf 5y ago
Sleeping in zero G. Another issue is that CO2 won't disperse. IIRC from a discussion on Henry Spencer's sci.space, there is a fan at every sleep station.
- tzs 5y ago
  Why won't CO₂ disperse there? I'd expect diffusion to be sufficient to keep the CO₂ concentration fairly uniform throughout the station.
  - ComputerGuru 5y ago
    I think it’s more about local pockets over temporally short periods of time. Gravity probably plays a role in kicking off the dispersion process by moving them from their initial place of production (where you exhale) so it doesn’t just cluster there.
    - labster 5y ago
      Gravity definitely plays a role in convection, which is the main form of dispersion. The air one exhales has different composition — more CO2, more water — which means it has different buoyancy. Usually, this means the parcel of air rises here on Earth, but falling of your face is fine too. No gravity means no convection. Without wind to cause turbulence, mixing is really slow, leaving molecular diffusion as the only process. Remember, that’s random, and CO2 will still accumulate near the point source with a Gaussian distribution.
  - sephamorr 5y ago
    Diffusion is definitely not sufficient--natural convection is usually sufficient to do this on earth, but gravity is a requirement for most natural air convection. Interestingly, a surprisingly large percentage of a spacecraft's power draw is spent just on air circulation (other conditioning adds as well).
Pxtl 5y ago
> Dr. Levine discovered SANS by flying cancer patients aboard zero-G parabolic flights. They still had ports in their heads to receive chemotherapy, which gave researchers an access point to measure pressure within their brains what
- avs733 5y ago
  I would have loved to be on whatever panel read and approved that grant. Obviously this is a brilliant methodology and a wonderful science hack, but how stoned did someone get that 'zero G cancer patients to tap their brain fluids' came out.
tokai 5y ago
I know space is at a premium on a space craft. But wouldn't it still be simpler just to have a sleepingbag that rotates around a center by the upper torso? Seems overengineered to sleep in a vacumbag.
- eminence32 5y ago
  Maybe I've misunderstood your idea, but it seems to me that a vacuum sleeping bag is less complicated than a sleepingbag/bed that constantly rotates its occupant
  - tokai 5y ago
    well a vacum sleeping bag is a motor plus more (and the bed). A rotating bed is just a motor (and also the bed). But yeah it's probs not any better.
- rtkwe 5y ago
  That would push some down into the feet but also accelerate some up to the head. In addition that's a lot of space in a pretty cramped area. Then you have to mount it so it doesn't induce vibrations on the space craft which is an issue they already fight with the existing exercise equipment. On top of all of that you're creating pretty sizable gyroscopes that you need to spin up and down requiring a counter force from somewhere.
gruez 5y ago
> vacuum cleaner-like suction device is then activated that draws fluid toward the feet, preventing it from accumulating in the head. How does that even work? The liquid is accumulating inside the head. How would pulling a vacuum (presumably outside the body, in the sleeping bag) help? If anything the vacuum would force liquid to the head by squeezing liquid from the body.
- xuhu 5y ago
  There are veins for other liquids, just like there are for blood. The liquids don't lie around everywhere under the skin.
- supperburg 5y ago
  Create low pressure around the legs, they puff up with blood which means less blood in other parts of the body. If you need a demonstration then google “penis pump”
  - lumost 5y ago
    Iirc there is a lot of debate on the minimum g level required to avoid negative effects. Spinning people tends to make them uncomfortable and nautious. However, I'd be quite curious if the g level is actually very low. You could have a small gently rotating section of a station.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      > small gently rotating section of a station A small rotating section near the center would have extremely uncomfortable tidal effects. You want to be as far as possible from the fulcrum to reduce the tidal effects.
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        You can probably just lie down and sleep though. The tidal effects would be interesting, but I'm not sure they'd be uncomfortable. Walking would be more difficult, as you'd feel you are about to fall on your face (or back) but I don't think it's something one wouldn't be able to get used to. Wouldn't work with the 4.5 m size limit of the current ISS modules, it's barely doable with a Starship-wide module, but seems totally doable with inflatables. Bigelow was designing 12m+ wide modules and that was a limitation of the rocket fairing that was launching it. With, say, Starship, the module could be much wider.
samizdis 5y ago
Archive link for anyone irritated by engadget's cookie settings nightmare: https://archive.md/z4czx https://archive.md/z4czx
supperburg 5y ago
>by the time NASA is ready to go to Mars Don’t hold your breath.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  Technical issues aside, why would they even want to?
  - rtkwe 5y ago
    Humans are still generally better than just having a robot there because they're both more flexible and capable of problem solving. Maybe for the same money you could get enough robots there to make up the gap but sending humans to Mars is sexier and attracts more money than you could get for the robot missions. Then even if we never actually go 'preparing' to go to Mars attracts ongoing money for studies on the ISS and for sending robotics missions.
  - elihu 5y ago
    For NASA in particular, they'd be interested in doing science locally, establishing multiplanetary infrastructure, national pride reasons and help people think that the human race is making some kind of forward progress, and to motivate young people to be interested in science. Basically reasons that are similar to the reasons why NASA does anything. For people in general, I'd say people might want to go to Mars for mining (maybe direct mining of Mars or more likely to serve as a refueling spot with a shallow gravity well for mining operations in the belt), real estate speculation, science, low-gravity sports and entertainment, retirement communities for people with mobility issues, to establish new communities according to their rules rather than working within the established systems of Earth, tourism, curiosity, a sense of adventure, and so on.
TheCoreh 5y ago
Why can't we tether the spaceship that carries the astronauts with a separate spaceship that carries the cargo (that will be only needed on mars) via a set of long, thin cables (to act as a counterweight) and spin the two around their joint center of mass? That solves the problem of needing a really large ship to make the rotation not uncomfortable, and allows for artificial gravity
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  We can. It's been written about for decades. It's just expensive.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    But why is it hard or expensive. These spacecraft can already withstand earth gravity, because we built them here on earth and they didn't collapse during construction. They typically already have lifting points to lift them with a crane too. Cable is cheap and light. Getting the whole lot spinning can be done very slowly over many days with the same ion thrusters that are used for stationkeeping. Total delta-V isn't very high. Total fuel used isn't very high either. The only disadvantage really is that you lose most of the benefits of zero-G. for example, long running experiments requiring zero G. You also start to need walkways and paths. The ceiling of rooms becomes dead unusable space. etc. Docking new spacecraft requires stopping the spinning, which takes many days. Comms antennas and solar arrays get more expensive.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      >The only disadvantage really is that you lose most of the benefits of zero-G. for example, long running experiments requiring zero G. You also start to need walkways and paths. The ceiling of rooms becomes dead unusable space. etc. Docking new spacecraft requires stopping the spinning, which takes many days. For a one way trip to "elsewhere" none of that matters much. We'll probably see this approach investigated more fully when a one way trip to elsewhere seems more likely.
    - 5y ago
xwdv 5y ago
IMO the problems of living in space are so numerous that unless we can seriously come up with a good general solution for artificial gravity we probably shouldn’t even bother with the idea of being in space for anything longer than a flight to some celestial body. Why has it taken so long?
jzig 5y ago
I guess you could say staying in space long enough gives you SANS vision.
anarchy8 5y ago
NASA spends a lot of money trying to negate the health impacts of zero gravity, one wonders whether or not that money / science would be best spent in outfitting the next space station with a rotating section? Then we could prove that that solves the problem.
blockwriter 5y ago
I’ll go to space when there are mattresses and the ice cream isn’t plaster.
AcerbicZero 5y ago
This is endemic of the problems at NASA. The concept is likely sound, and the problem likely needs to be solved, but doing it in such a tiny and insignificant way.....spin the spaceship, dont vacuum the space people.
- thatguy0900 5y ago
  Is the problems of nasa that they don't have an unlimited budget? Why make a experimental rotating artificial gravity spacecraft when a fancy sleeping bag will do the trick?
  - Valgrim 5y ago
    We should experiment on rotating artificial gravity anyway, if only to expand our knowledge of space colonization: https://www.nasa.gov/careers/our-mission-and-values https://www.nasa.gov/careers/our-mission-and-values > Mission: Lead an innovative and sustainable program of exploration with commercial and international partners to enable human expansion across the solar system and bring new knowledge and opportunities back to Earth. Support growth of the nation's economy in space and aeronautics, increase understanding of the universe and our place in it, work with industry to improve America's aerospace technologies and advance American leadership. But I agree that it should be a completely different mission than the International Space Station.
- Out_of_Characte 5y ago
  using centrifugal force would require a complete redesign and billions of dollars. Whereas the ISS space station is for a few people for a few months and mostly for research. sophisticated space stations would have to wait untill a turning point in profitability is reached. Space elevators are still in the realm of science fiction and are on the edge of theoretical feasability
  - samwillis 5y ago
    Agree this is a sound solution for now however the the ISS is currently only approved for service until 2024 (this will clearly be extended) and plans need to be made for its replacement. With the (moderately) high probability that the SpaceX Star Ship will succeed and go into active service in the next few years the cost to orbit is going to drop significantly. There is an opitunity soon to rethink what a space station is. Realistically the internal area of a Star Ship could make a space station in the same vain as ISS, and would be “cheap”. But we could also feasibly construct a rotating station with the use of Star Ship. Space is about to undergo a transformative change in how people approach building in it.
DarthNebo 5y ago
The solution that sprung in my mind was akin to an artificial gravity simulator ring, slowly spinning beds arranged like a flower petal.
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago
  That works, but the necessary radius is larger than anything we have in space right now. The vestibular system would be so confused you'd quickly develop motion sickness. Kids with low-viscosity fluid find the Scrambler at the carnival fun, adults can have fun for a while...but nobody I know of falls asleep on it. Here's a cool page discussing appropriate radii and spin velocities for artificial gravity: https://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/SpinCalc/ https://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/SpinCalc/ TLDR: A space habitat with artificial gravity should have the rotating section on a cable or truss at a radius on the order of 100m or more!
errcorrectcode 5y ago
I'm curious about nocturnal cerebral edema and its potential relation to Alzheimer's and dementia. IIRC, some of the brain's cells may change size to accommodate what could be considered a "flushing" routine to remove detritus but tangles of tau and/or ABeta don't want to go. Perhaps exercise and/or spaceflight could dislodge them.
- penisverse 5y ago
  Maybe related https://alzheimersnewstoday.com/2021/10/05/hyperbaric-oxygen-therapy-prevents-alzheimers-processes-mice/ https://alzheimersnewstoday.com/2021/10/05/hyperbaric-oxygen...
viburnum 5y ago
Really the solution is to just send robots.

Is there a good list of major health issues associated with space flight? Would be interesting to see what still needs to be solved for multi-year stays.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_spaceflight_on_the_human_body https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_spaceflight_on_the_h...
- thedudeabides5 5y ago
  Not comprehensive, but link between radiation - viruses - cancer here https://www.ted.com/talks/madison_campbell_viruses_in_space_cancer_at_home https://www.ted.com/talks/madison_campbell_viruses_in_space_...
  - ComputerGuru 5y ago
    ISS doesn’t have much radiation. It’s not the moon.
    - viburnum 5y ago
      Yeah, the ISS is barely even in space. You can go that far on a train before lunch.

conaclos 5y ago

Remind me of Misha who goes practically blind during his trip to Mars in series Away.

euroderf 5y ago

Sleeping in zero G. Another issue is that CO2 won't disperse. IIRC from a discussion on Henry Spencer's sci.space, there is a fan at every sleep station.

tzs 5y ago
Why won't CO₂ disperse there? I'd expect diffusion to be sufficient to keep the CO₂ concentration fairly uniform throughout the station.
- ComputerGuru 5y ago
  I think it’s more about local pockets over temporally short periods of time. Gravity probably plays a role in kicking off the dispersion process by moving them from their initial place of production (where you exhale) so it doesn’t just cluster there.
  - labster 5y ago
    Gravity definitely plays a role in convection, which is the main form of dispersion. The air one exhales has different composition — more CO2, more water — which means it has different buoyancy. Usually, this means the parcel of air rises here on Earth, but falling of your face is fine too. No gravity means no convection. Without wind to cause turbulence, mixing is really slow, leaving molecular diffusion as the only process. Remember, that’s random, and CO2 will still accumulate near the point source with a Gaussian distribution.
- sephamorr 5y ago
  Diffusion is definitely not sufficient--natural convection is usually sufficient to do this on earth, but gravity is a requirement for most natural air convection. Interestingly, a surprisingly large percentage of a spacecraft's power draw is spent just on air circulation (other conditioning adds as well).

Pxtl 5y ago

> Dr. Levine discovered SANS by flying cancer patients aboard zero-G parabolic flights. They still had ports in their heads to receive chemotherapy, which gave researchers an access point to measure pressure within their brains what

avs733 5y ago
I would have loved to be on whatever panel read and approved that grant. Obviously this is a brilliant methodology and a wonderful science hack, but how stoned did someone get that 'zero G cancer patients to tap their brain fluids' came out.

tokai 5y ago

I know space is at a premium on a space craft. But wouldn't it still be simpler just to have a sleepingbag that rotates around a center by the upper torso? Seems overengineered to sleep in a vacumbag.

eminence32 5y ago
Maybe I've misunderstood your idea, but it seems to me that a vacuum sleeping bag is less complicated than a sleepingbag/bed that constantly rotates its occupant
- tokai 5y ago
  well a vacum sleeping bag is a motor plus more (and the bed). A rotating bed is just a motor (and also the bed). But yeah it's probs not any better.
rtkwe 5y ago
That would push some down into the feet but also accelerate some up to the head. In addition that's a lot of space in a pretty cramped area. Then you have to mount it so it doesn't induce vibrations on the space craft which is an issue they already fight with the existing exercise equipment. On top of all of that you're creating pretty sizable gyroscopes that you need to spin up and down requiring a counter force from somewhere.

gruez 5y ago

> vacuum cleaner-like suction device is then activated that draws fluid toward the feet, preventing it from accumulating in the head. How does that even work? The liquid is accumulating inside the head. How would pulling a vacuum (presumably outside the body, in the sleeping bag) help? If anything the vacuum would force liquid to the head by squeezing liquid from the body.

xuhu 5y ago
There are veins for other liquids, just like there are for blood. The liquids don't lie around everywhere under the skin.
supperburg 5y ago
Create low pressure around the legs, they puff up with blood which means less blood in other parts of the body. If you need a demonstration then google “penis pump”
- lumost 5y ago
  Iirc there is a lot of debate on the minimum g level required to avoid negative effects. Spinning people tends to make them uncomfortable and nautious. However, I'd be quite curious if the g level is actually very low. You could have a small gently rotating section of a station.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > small gently rotating section of a station A small rotating section near the center would have extremely uncomfortable tidal effects. You want to be as far as possible from the fulcrum to reduce the tidal effects.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      You can probably just lie down and sleep though. The tidal effects would be interesting, but I'm not sure they'd be uncomfortable. Walking would be more difficult, as you'd feel you are about to fall on your face (or back) but I don't think it's something one wouldn't be able to get used to. Wouldn't work with the 4.5 m size limit of the current ISS modules, it's barely doable with a Starship-wide module, but seems totally doable with inflatables. Bigelow was designing 12m+ wide modules and that was a limitation of the rocket fairing that was launching it. With, say, Starship, the module could be much wider.

samizdis 5y ago

Archive link for anyone irritated by engadget's cookie settings nightmare: https://archive.md/z4czx https://archive.md/z4czx

supperburg 5y ago

>by the time NASA is ready to go to Mars Don’t hold your breath.

germinalphrase 5y ago
Technical issues aside, why would they even want to?
- rtkwe 5y ago
  Humans are still generally better than just having a robot there because they're both more flexible and capable of problem solving. Maybe for the same money you could get enough robots there to make up the gap but sending humans to Mars is sexier and attracts more money than you could get for the robot missions. Then even if we never actually go 'preparing' to go to Mars attracts ongoing money for studies on the ISS and for sending robotics missions.
- elihu 5y ago
  For NASA in particular, they'd be interested in doing science locally, establishing multiplanetary infrastructure, national pride reasons and help people think that the human race is making some kind of forward progress, and to motivate young people to be interested in science. Basically reasons that are similar to the reasons why NASA does anything. For people in general, I'd say people might want to go to Mars for mining (maybe direct mining of Mars or more likely to serve as a refueling spot with a shallow gravity well for mining operations in the belt), real estate speculation, science, low-gravity sports and entertainment, retirement communities for people with mobility issues, to establish new communities according to their rules rather than working within the established systems of Earth, tourism, curiosity, a sense of adventure, and so on.

TheCoreh 5y ago

Why can't we tether the spaceship that carries the astronauts with a separate spaceship that carries the cargo (that will be only needed on mars) via a set of long, thin cables (to act as a counterweight) and spin the two around their joint center of mass? That solves the problem of needing a really large ship to make the rotation not uncomfortable, and allows for artificial gravity

3pt14159 5y ago
We can. It's been written about for decades. It's just expensive.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  But why is it hard or expensive. These spacecraft can already withstand earth gravity, because we built them here on earth and they didn't collapse during construction. They typically already have lifting points to lift them with a crane too. Cable is cheap and light. Getting the whole lot spinning can be done very slowly over many days with the same ion thrusters that are used for stationkeeping. Total delta-V isn't very high. Total fuel used isn't very high either. The only disadvantage really is that you lose most of the benefits of zero-G. for example, long running experiments requiring zero G. You also start to need walkways and paths. The ceiling of rooms becomes dead unusable space. etc. Docking new spacecraft requires stopping the spinning, which takes many days. Comms antennas and solar arrays get more expensive.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    >The only disadvantage really is that you lose most of the benefits of zero-G. for example, long running experiments requiring zero G. You also start to need walkways and paths. The ceiling of rooms becomes dead unusable space. etc. Docking new spacecraft requires stopping the spinning, which takes many days. For a one way trip to "elsewhere" none of that matters much. We'll probably see this approach investigated more fully when a one way trip to elsewhere seems more likely.
  - 5y ago

xwdv 5y ago

IMO the problems of living in space are so numerous that unless we can seriously come up with a good general solution for artificial gravity we probably shouldn’t even bother with the idea of being in space for anything longer than a flight to some celestial body. Why has it taken so long?

jzig 5y ago

I guess you could say staying in space long enough gives you SANS vision.

anarchy8 5y ago

NASA spends a lot of money trying to negate the health impacts of zero gravity, one wonders whether or not that money / science would be best spent in outfitting the next space station with a rotating section? Then we could prove that that solves the problem.

blockwriter 5y ago

I’ll go to space when there are mattresses and the ice cream isn’t plaster.

AcerbicZero 5y ago

This is endemic of the problems at NASA. The concept is likely sound, and the problem likely needs to be solved, but doing it in such a tiny and insignificant way.....spin the spaceship, dont vacuum the space people.

thatguy0900 5y ago
Is the problems of nasa that they don't have an unlimited budget? Why make a experimental rotating artificial gravity spacecraft when a fancy sleeping bag will do the trick?
- Valgrim 5y ago
  We should experiment on rotating artificial gravity anyway, if only to expand our knowledge of space colonization: https://www.nasa.gov/careers/our-mission-and-values https://www.nasa.gov/careers/our-mission-and-values > Mission: Lead an innovative and sustainable program of exploration with commercial and international partners to enable human expansion across the solar system and bring new knowledge and opportunities back to Earth. Support growth of the nation's economy in space and aeronautics, increase understanding of the universe and our place in it, work with industry to improve America's aerospace technologies and advance American leadership. But I agree that it should be a completely different mission than the International Space Station.
Out_of_Characte 5y ago
using centrifugal force would require a complete redesign and billions of dollars. Whereas the ISS space station is for a few people for a few months and mostly for research. sophisticated space stations would have to wait untill a turning point in profitability is reached. Space elevators are still in the realm of science fiction and are on the edge of theoretical feasability
- samwillis 5y ago
  Agree this is a sound solution for now however the the ISS is currently only approved for service until 2024 (this will clearly be extended) and plans need to be made for its replacement. With the (moderately) high probability that the SpaceX Star Ship will succeed and go into active service in the next few years the cost to orbit is going to drop significantly. There is an opitunity soon to rethink what a space station is. Realistically the internal area of a Star Ship could make a space station in the same vain as ISS, and would be “cheap”. But we could also feasibly construct a rotating station with the use of Star Ship. Space is about to undergo a transformative change in how people approach building in it.

DarthNebo 5y ago

The solution that sprung in my mind was akin to an artificial gravity simulator ring, slowly spinning beds arranged like a flower petal.

LeifCarrotson 5y ago
That works, but the necessary radius is larger than anything we have in space right now. The vestibular system would be so confused you'd quickly develop motion sickness. Kids with low-viscosity fluid find the Scrambler at the carnival fun, adults can have fun for a while...but nobody I know of falls asleep on it. Here's a cool page discussing appropriate radii and spin velocities for artificial gravity: https://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/SpinCalc/ https://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/SpinCalc/ TLDR: A space habitat with artificial gravity should have the rotating section on a cable or truss at a radius on the order of 100m or more!

errcorrectcode 5y ago

I'm curious about nocturnal cerebral edema and its potential relation to Alzheimer's and dementia. IIRC, some of the brain's cells may change size to accommodate what could be considered a "flushing" routine to remove detritus but tangles of tau and/or ABeta don't want to go. Perhaps exercise and/or spaceflight could dislodge them.

penisverse 5y ago
Maybe related https://alzheimersnewstoday.com/2021/10/05/hyperbaric-oxygen-therapy-prevents-alzheimers-processes-mice/ https://alzheimersnewstoday.com/2021/10/05/hyperbaric-oxygen...

viburnum 5y ago

Really the solution is to just send robots.