4 ms·

Define actual harm. You don't seem to hold the time of people who play games very highly.

by krapht 5y ago

celeritascelery 5y ago
If wasting time is a crime, we should also make long checkout lines and traffic jams illegal while we’re at it.
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  But imagine if someone built purpose-built software for causing traffic jams, and a large community of regular users make traffic jams 5 times more common than they used to be. I don't say this out of any personal animus, I don't drive very often myself, but I think it would be reasonable to start talking about criminal penalties. At some point you have to be able to defend the commons, no?
  - gruez 5y ago
    >But imagine if someone built purpose-built software for causing traffic jams, and a large community of regular users make traffic jams 5 times more common than they used to be. What's the difference between that and someone who simply drives bad/slow? Do they get a pass because it doesn't have "purpose-built software"? Or is it because they're not acting as a group? If cheaters are not acting in a coordinated way, do they get a free pass as well?
    - krapht 5y ago
      The difference is intent, and this is a core consideration of our justice system.
      - gruez 5y ago
        So people using excessive amounts of coupons and/or change at checkouts should be sanctioned as well?
        sokoloff 5y ago
        Can you not tell the difference between someone intending to save money (or pay their bill) and intending to slow others down?
        gruez 5y ago
        You could make the argument that cheaters are trying to "have fun"/"win" as well, albeit in a way that negatively affects others.
        1123581321 5y ago
        I haven't seen excessive coupon use banned, but I actually have seen a store make that person wait until the rest of the shoppers cleared the line. Very satisfying.
seanp2k2 5y ago
I was thinking about this too, given recent events like Titanfall being pulled from sale due to the rampant cheating (which also led to many players abandoning the game before, leading to very low sales).
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
If wasting people's time is a crime, pretty much every advertiser and marketer in existence is commiting a crime.... Actually I might be able to get behind this idea.
elliekelly 5y ago
I’m a gamer. I value my time a lot. I hate cheaters. But I don’t think anyone’s civil liberties should be curtailed because they cheat in a game. And if we’re all going to be so outraged by people wasting gamers’ time then 95% of mobile games would be criminal. Do you want to fine people for cheating? Whatever. But branding someone a criminal (for life!) over a game is ridiculous.
thoraway66 5y ago
Go feed yourself without a job network that requires some people to be janitors forever and others to be copy-paste coders who live high on the hog Granting privilege to ephemeral success narratives is on the way out with religion (<50% follow religion and belief in tales of past success dictating current stature) Behavioral economics is revealing people take jobs because they pay. Not because they’re satisfied. The idea a janitor is choosing that is an outdated bias. Just because you’re insulated from the effects of this economy does not mean others are. This is all very “gay people bad, what my niece is gay? gay people good!” Your lack of connection to other peoples situation is telling. You’re not the main character in this shared reality
djoldman 5y ago
In the federal US courts it's usually defined like this: (A) General Rule.—Subject to the exclusions in subdivision (D), loss is the greater of actual loss or intended loss. (i) Actual Loss.—“Actual loss” means the reasonably foreseeable pecuniary harm that resulted from the offense. (ii) Intended Loss.—“Intended loss” (I) means the pecuniary harm that the defendant purposely sought to inflict; and (II) includes intended pecuniary harm that would have been impossible or unlikely to occur (e.g., as in a government sting operation, or an insurance fraud in which the claim exceeded the insured value).

Define actual harm. You don't seem to hold the time of people who play games very highly.

by krapht 5y ago

Define actual harm. You don't seem to hold the time of people who play games very highly.

celeritascelery 5y ago

If wasting time is a crime, we should also make long checkout lines and traffic jams illegal while we’re at it.

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
But imagine if someone built purpose-built software for causing traffic jams, and a large community of regular users make traffic jams 5 times more common than they used to be. I don't say this out of any personal animus, I don't drive very often myself, but I think it would be reasonable to start talking about criminal penalties. At some point you have to be able to defend the commons, no?
- gruez 5y ago
  >But imagine if someone built purpose-built software for causing traffic jams, and a large community of regular users make traffic jams 5 times more common than they used to be. What's the difference between that and someone who simply drives bad/slow? Do they get a pass because it doesn't have "purpose-built software"? Or is it because they're not acting as a group? If cheaters are not acting in a coordinated way, do they get a free pass as well?
  - krapht 5y ago
    The difference is intent, and this is a core consideration of our justice system.
    - gruez 5y ago
      So people using excessive amounts of coupons and/or change at checkouts should be sanctioned as well?
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Can you not tell the difference between someone intending to save money (or pay their bill) and intending to slow others down?
        gruez 5y ago
        You could make the argument that cheaters are trying to "have fun"/"win" as well, albeit in a way that negatively affects others.
      - 1123581321 5y ago
        I haven't seen excessive coupon use banned, but I actually have seen a store make that person wait until the rest of the shoppers cleared the line. Very satisfying.

seanp2k2 5y ago

I was thinking about this too, given recent events like Titanfall being pulled from sale due to the rampant cheating (which also led to many players abandoning the game before, leading to very low sales).

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

If wasting people's time is a crime, pretty much every advertiser and marketer in existence is commiting a crime.... Actually I might be able to get behind this idea.

elliekelly 5y ago

I’m a gamer. I value my time a lot. I hate cheaters. But I don’t think anyone’s civil liberties should be curtailed because they cheat in a game. And if we’re all going to be so outraged by people wasting gamers’ time then 95% of mobile games would be criminal. Do you want to fine people for cheating? Whatever. But branding someone a criminal (for life!) over a game is ridiculous.

thoraway66 5y ago

Go feed yourself without a job network that requires some people to be janitors forever and others to be copy-paste coders who live high on the hog Granting privilege to ephemeral success narratives is on the way out with religion (<50% follow religion and belief in tales of past success dictating current stature) Behavioral economics is revealing people take jobs because they pay. Not because they’re satisfied. The idea a janitor is choosing that is an outdated bias. Just because you’re insulated from the effects of this economy does not mean others are. This is all very “gay people bad, what my niece is gay? gay people good!” Your lack of connection to other peoples situation is telling. You’re not the main character in this shared reality

djoldman 5y ago

In the federal US courts it's usually defined like this: (A) General Rule.—Subject to the exclusions in subdivision (D), loss is the greater of actual loss or intended loss. (i) Actual Loss.—“Actual loss” means the reasonably foreseeable pecuniary harm that resulted from the offense. (ii) Intended Loss.—“Intended loss” (I) means the pecuniary harm that the defendant purposely sought to inflict; and (II) includes intended pecuniary harm that would have been impossible or unlikely to occur (e.g., as in a government sting operation, or an insurance fraud in which the claim exceeded the insured value).