11 ms·

Alarmed by Tesla’s self-driving test, state legislators demand answers from DMV

90 points by turtlegrids 5y ago

gadnuk 5y ago
As they should, from all agencies involved. It is absolutely horrifying to see Tesla do this open beta test on public roads when no other non-Tesla entities (other cars, pedestrians, motorcyclists, bicyclists, etc) consented to being a part of a reckless experiment. Moreover, Tesla influencers on social media tend to cherry pick and show only the nicer parts of their FSD Beta drives where no incidents and disengagements occur. Whereas you will often see in the comments some Beta users disagreeing and often showing the scary bits. And of course the pattern of Tesla influencers acting like an echo chamber absolutely disagreeing with anything critical of Tesla, jumping to Musk's defense at every turn because..."My mission!". An example: https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/1469404579439824899 https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/146940457943982... A thread of the scariness of this Beta test on public roads: https://twitter.com/Tweet_Removed/status/1438553523369615364?s=20 https://twitter.com/Tweet_Removed/status/1438553523369615364... Elon Musk has a history of overestimating Tesla's capabilities when it comes to autonomy. And also flouting regulations to reach the end goal. He wants to make people believe in the illusion that Tesla are in some unsurmountable lead when it comes to autonomy but they are actually playing catchup and are dead last because of the approach they took. Here's a timeline of Musk dangling the carrot of full autonomy (SAE Level 5) for over 6 years now. https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/n6nsmt/elons_tweet_does_not_match_engineering_reality/gx8kure/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/n6nsmt/elo... But people argue, "Oh, but they are getting better and eventually will iron out all the edge cases!". This is not a matter of just making some settings change and things magically fix themselves. These are safety critical systems and not considering edge cases while advertising the feature as "Full Self-Driving" can lead to fatalities. The edge cases don't seem to be finite and no amount of "Dojo will solve this!", "The system is learning more and more and will reach there!" will solve the problem with their approach. At some point, he will have to eat humble pie and incorporate more sensors to increase safety. But with the ongoing chip shortage and the fact that they have to sell as many cars as possible lest the stock promotion crumbles makes it an even harder task. It's always some next version that will blow your mind. It's always the next version that's almost there. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1435967157662150675?s=20 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1435967157662150675?s=20 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1469541536128020485?s=20 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1469541536128020485?s=20
- laurent92 5y ago
  Thank you for providing the video, the situation is appalling.
- sva_ 5y ago
  > https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/1469404579439824899 https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/146940457943982... Damn, the part where he tried to take over and the car wouldn't let him for a while, was downright scary Reminds me of a famous quote... > "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." I fell like there should be a hardware way of taking over that overwrites anything the software does.
  - mcot2 5y ago
    There is. Tapping the brake pedal.
    - landa 5y ago
      Exactly. If you press the brakes the system gives complete control back to the driver. It's interesting to see all of the comments about the "horrifying" experiments Tesla is doing, and quoting science fiction movies about how robots are going to murder you. So much sensationalism.
      - mcot2 5y ago
        The FUD is unreal.
    - TigeriusKirk 5y ago
      I believe Tesla testing FSD on open roads is probably going to cost lives. I think they're aware of the game they're playing and they're taking more risks than is responsible. I also believe the driver in that video doesn't have the level-headedness to be testing anything anywhere. Which is a criticism both of the driver and of Tesla for letting people like that run the software on the open road.
lanevorockz 5y ago
No wonder Tesla is leaving California, over and over again you see corruption and government control taking over inovation.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Asking why the DMV is allowing beta-quality autonomous driving systems on public roads is “corruption”? Lol.
  - lanevorockz 5y ago
    Who determines Beta-Quality ? What you complain here is something all developed countries already allow, anyways .. let the lobbyist bribe whoever they want.
    - alistairSH 5y ago
      Tesla does. The program is literally called “Full Self Drive (FSD) Beta”!
- kadoban 5y ago
  Shouldn't the government ask why a "beta" software that's being sold as "full self driving" is operating with seemingly no oversight?
  - option 5y ago
    while using it you are required to be fully in attention, keep your hands on the steering wheel and ready to take control at any time. What is not clear about that?
    - kadoban 5y ago
      What's not clear is if that's good enough. I doubt it is.
- rdiddly 5y ago
andrewtbham 5y ago
[flagged]
- gadnuk 5y ago
  "This is the same woman that stated "fuck elon musk" on twitter," You are wrong. Lena Gonzalez (D-Long Beach) != Lorena Gonzalez (D-San Diego)
  - Stupulous 5y ago
    Good catch. Tricky because Lena Gonzalez (D-Long Beach) || Lorena Gonzalez (D-San Diego) == Lena Gonzalez (D-)
dbsmith83 5y ago
> ...cited the apparent poor performance of what Tesla calls Full Self-Driving beta, a $10,000 option that gives owners advanced automated driving features and allows them to test cutting-edge autonomous technologies on public roads. (Beta is a software term that describes a product not quite ready for general sale to the public.) Wait, does this mean people are actually paying extra money to become test dummies for this?
- catillac 5y ago
  Yes, Tesla owner here. When you buy you’re given the option to purchase “FSD” for $10k. All the caveats reveal that it’s not really FSD though, of course, and you’re essentially paying for these partial FSD features and are a part of the testing (like opting into iOS beta, for example). You can go through the order flow on Teslas site and see this quickly.
- avereveard 5y ago
  yes, turns out "all our vehicle have the necessary hardware for full self driving" was another of the many boutades that aren't technically lies only because layers of fine print included and generous interpretations thereof from the Musk sycophants.
- mcot2 5y ago
  Edited to remove snarky reply of: “No, you should do some basic research first.” The FSD beta is no additional cost over the (currently) $10,000 package that adds additional AP capabilities and hardware upgrades. My computer was already upgraded for example.
  - javajosh 5y ago
    You, too! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dbsmith83 5y ago
    > “No, you should do some basic research first.” Why should I? I read the article and can ask/talk about it here--discussion is literally the point.
mygoodaccount 5y ago
Slightly off topic, but it's fun to see company culture reflected in the algorithm behaviour. There are thousands of clips of Tesla's Fatal Self Driving being far too aggressive for American roads (https://nitter.net/taylorogan/status/1469404579439824899 https://nitter.net/taylorogan/status/1469404579439824899). Meanwhile, companies like AutoX have the problem of being far too conservative for Asian roads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=TFEvkmvIjVo https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=TFEvkmvIjVo). AutoX has some of the best edge case handling I've seen.
- intrasight 5y ago
  This I've long thought the be the Achilles' heel of autonomous. Even skilled human drivers have a hard time calibrating their style to the local situation. I remember the first time I drove as a passenger through Manhattan with my father driving, and couldn't get my head around his change in driving style. Was a side of him I'd never seen before - driving aggressively like a cab driver. I'm sure it came from his years of living in NYC.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    For sure. Driving on a test track is a technical problem. Driving in traffic is a social problem. As you noted, how one drives in traffic is not just about getting somewhere, but about communicating and negotiating with other drivers around you. It's one of the things that makes me think that true self-driving may be in the AGI bucket.
    - capnhawkbill 5y ago
      If all the cars would be autonomous then this problem would be solved because they would all keep the same driving style right?
      - wpietri 5y ago
        Not at all. You really think somebody wouldn't program their cars to be more aggressive so that their owners get there faster?
staunch 5y ago
I'm a big fan of Tesla but I'm fairly certain that, at some point, they're going to voluntarily refund everyone the money they paid for self-driving. And, at some later point, they will probably make self-driving work but on a future generation of HW/SW. Genuine question: if this happens, will it kill Tesla to refund all of this money? I don't pay close enough attention to their financials to know myself. I assume (and hope) not.
- jondwillis 5y ago
  Software isn’t really a problem. What hardware changes do you think Tesla will need to make to deliver on FSD, whether that ends up being actual level 5 or not? it is also not that expensive to retrofit most new hardware, especially if it is just new silicon.
  - mcot2 5y ago
    They have already done a hardware upgrade to my car from HW2.5->3, the nivida based solution to their own custom silicon. The $10,000 (now, $5000 when I bought it) includes all hardware upgrades.
- brewdad 5y ago
  I have seen nothing in Elon Musk's public persona to suggest he would ever voluntarily refund FSD beta fees. He might "voluntarily" do so under enough government pressure but he seems more likely to thumb his nose at regulators and take his chances on losing a class-action suit.
thinkmassive 5y ago
Note that there are two “FSD Beta” programs: 1. The paid software unlock for “Full Self Driving” (currently in “beta”) available to everyone, which provides automatic driving from on-ramp to off-ramp, and a handful of parking features like auto-park and summon: https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot 2. The invite-only “FSD Beta” that unlocks the above FSD features on city streets, which is available to a subset of customers w/#1 who have very high Tesla Safety Scores.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I feel confused why 1) they would call both programs by the same name (arguing that an acronym is pretty much the same name) and 2) why the government even allows them to call it Full Self Driving, when there are levels of autonomous driving and I imagine most would assume Full means the highest level, which, Tesla has not yet achieved from everything I've read.
  - qbasic_forever 5y ago
    If you wanted to stall and mire an investigation in process then having two separate systems named almost exactly the same thing and constantly quibbling over semantics of them would be a good way to do it.
  - wongarsu 5y ago
    > I imagine most would assume Full means the highest level USB 2.0 got away with Full Speed/High Speed (with high being more than full)
    - rsynnott 5y ago
      Those weren't marketing names; that is, no-one was being presented with devices labeled "USB Full Speed (meaning USB1.1 full speed)" and buying them on the basis that that must be better than "USB High Speed".
    - bastawhiz 5y ago
ModernMech 5y ago
I really thought the breaks would have been slammed on Tesla's shipping of autonomous car software after the incident where the guy was decapitated by a tractor trailer.
- mcot2 5y ago
  At that time the system was merely lane keep with adaptive cruise control. Any system would have had a similar result at that time.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    should have had emergency auto-brake. As I understand it the radar either didn’t see the trailer or filtered it out as stationary - camera was unable to distinguish white steel from white sky - should have been a wake up call that current tech doesn’t have the sensory bandwidth to know if something is blocking the road.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    Not any system. My recollection of that specific event was that is was due to the bright white tractor trailer not being picked up by the Tesla's camera. A system built with an orthogonal sensor could have picked up the trailer despite the camera missing it (e.g. a LIDAR). Proper fusion of those streams would have avoided the issue, and that person would be alive, or at least not dead because of Tesla's poorly engineered system.
    - mcot2 5y ago
      To clarify, any adaptive cruise system in deployment at that time.
- ec109685 5y ago
  The question is whether overall the technology makes Tesla drivers more safe. They’ve shown data that drivers with the autopilot features enabled are safer than those who do not have it on. While you can dispute the data, it’s not as simple as “car makes one type of mistake”, “feature should be banned”.
neonate 5y ago
https://archive.md/KxyfE https://archive.md/KxyfE
- mikeiz404 5y ago
  Reader view works too (on mobile)
mcot2 5y ago
Actual user of the beta here. Happy to answer any questions that are honest. My opinion is let the technology develop in the open, warts and all.
- Jxl180 5y ago
  My delivery isn’t until June but I’ve held off on buying FSD (maybe I’ll enable it for the month when I do a long trip), but I’m worried about this fantom braking issue I’ve heard about.
  - sroussey 5y ago
    I would get an older one. Newer ones lack the expensive radar component. Camera-only can be disabled by kids with a Q-beam (bright flashlight).
    - mcot2 5y ago
      On the contrary phantom braking for me was almost always caused by the radars and especially with overpasses in front of you.
  - mcot2 5y ago
    You will have basic autopilot which can also phantom brake. It is not as bad as it seems and was possibly worse when they used radar. As long as you are attentive to the system it is not a big deal.
    - soco 5y ago
      But why would I bother to buy an autonomous driver if I must be attentive to the system? I can just drive it myself then.
- halotrope 5y ago
  Does it work?
  - 5y ago
nickpp 5y ago
When a 16-year old kids starts learning to drive on the city streets, is anybody alarmed? I doubt that is much safer. We should treat the AIs just as children at this point. They are simply learning.
- thebruce87m 5y ago
  Along this vein, let’s have some sort of visual indicator on the car when it’s self driving, maybe a green light on the front/back the same way that we flag learners. That way other drivers can be extra cautious when in the vicinity. I’m not sure this would have helped the Tesla that steered into oncoming traffic. Luckily for the other driver the Tesla driver reacted and crashed off on the other direction. If he hadn’t done that I don’t think the other driver would have had the time to react even if he was aware of the danger the Tesla posed.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jakear 5y ago
This is why I drive a big truck. When egomaniacs can trick the government into allowing them to set their half baked creations loose on public roads using unknowing and unwilling third parties as test subjects, I want to be the dominant term in any and all conservation of momentum equations that may ensue. As an aside, I’ve driven maybe 50,000 miles in my lifetime. Of those, 47,000+ are using pre-2005 vehicles with zero “advanced safety features”. However, I can recall two times in my driving career where I felt collision was imminent, and both of them occurred in the <5% of the time I was driving with “advanced safety features”. Yes, the computer was able to step in and avoid a collision, but it strikes me as odd that the only times I’ve needed it are when it’s available. In my opinion these new cars lull me into a false sense of security where I do not give appropriate attention to road conditions. Has anyone noticed the same? I fear that as the technology gets better and better people will pay less and less attention, putting more and more lives at risk when things inevitably go wrong.
- rp1 5y ago
  What does a big truck have to do with safety features? To me, it just sounds like you’re happy to pollute the environment just so you’re sure to annihilate your counter party in an accident.
  - jakear 5y ago
    As I said, momentum. Are you familiar with newton's laws?
  - mcot2 5y ago
    Many studies have shown (and basic physics suggests) that the survivabity of accidents goes way up with vehicle weight all other things being mostly equal. https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight
- sterlind 5y ago
  Interesting game equilibrium. You buy a big truck because you're threatened by lightweight Teslas. I buy a semitruck to protect myself from you. A few cycles later, everyone's screaming around like Snowpiercer in APCs and military bulldozers.
satisfice 5y ago
If I had the money to buy an expensive car, I would want to drive it myself. If I could buy an airplane, I would want to fly it myself, too. I don’t understand rich guys who fork over for what is essentially a baby carriage pushed by a robot nanny. Where is your self-respect?
- lostmsu 5y ago
  So you can't imagine what people would prefer over driving expensive cars? :D
  - satisfice 5y ago
    No. And I am not sure what substance you abused that caused you to misinterpret me in that way. Perhaps caffeine? Let’s go with caffeine. I once owned a sports car. I bought it because I enjoy driving. I am saying that I, as a red blooded American man, do not understand why other men who are in the market for an expensive car would choose to purchase what is functionally a nannyless pram.
    - lostmsu 5y ago
      The only way you couldn't understand why people would prefer not driving a sporty car they can afford is for you to be unable to imagine a better way to spend time in a sporty car that doesn't involve driving it. As you can see with me understanding exactly what you said, you tend to jump to conclusions while not understanding things. Maybe that explains the inability to grasp "rich people" motives.

90 points by turtlegrids 5y ago

As they should, from all agencies involved. It is absolutely horrifying to see Tesla do this open beta test on public roads when no other non-Tesla entities (other cars, pedestrians, motorcyclists, bicyclists, etc) consented to being a part of a reckless experiment. Moreover, Tesla influencers on social media tend to cherry pick and show only the nicer parts of their FSD Beta drives where no incidents and disengagements occur. Whereas you will often see in the comments some Beta users disagreeing and often showing the scary bits. And of course the pattern of Tesla influencers acting like an echo chamber absolutely disagreeing with anything critical of Tesla, jumping to Musk's defense at every turn because..."My mission!". An example: https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/1469404579439824899 https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/146940457943982... A thread of the scariness of this Beta test on public roads: https://twitter.com/Tweet_Removed/status/1438553523369615364?s=20 https://twitter.com/Tweet_Removed/status/1438553523369615364... Elon Musk has a history of overestimating Tesla's capabilities when it comes to autonomy. And also flouting regulations to reach the end goal. He wants to make people believe in the illusion that Tesla are in some unsurmountable lead when it comes to autonomy but they are actually playing catchup and are dead last because of the approach they took. Here's a timeline of Musk dangling the carrot of full autonomy (SAE Level 5) for over 6 years now. https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/n6nsmt/elons_tweet_does_not_match_engineering_reality/gx8kure/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/n6nsmt/elo... But people argue, "Oh, but they are getting better and eventually will iron out all the edge cases!". This is not a matter of just making some settings change and things magically fix themselves. These are safety critical systems and not considering edge cases while advertising the feature as "Full Self-Driving" can lead to fatalities. The edge cases don't seem to be finite and no amount of "Dojo will solve this!", "The system is learning more and more and will reach there!" will solve the problem with their approach. At some point, he will have to eat humble pie and incorporate more sensors to increase safety. But with the ongoing chip shortage and the fact that they have to sell as many cars as possible lest the stock promotion crumbles makes it an even harder task. It's always some next version that will blow your mind. It's always the next version that's almost there. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1435967157662150675?s=20 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1435967157662150675?s=20 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1469541536128020485?s=20 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1469541536128020485?s=20

laurent92 5y ago
Thank you for providing the video, the situation is appalling.
sva_ 5y ago
> https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/1469404579439824899 https://mobile.twitter.com/taylorogan/status/146940457943982... Damn, the part where he tried to take over and the car wouldn't let him for a while, was downright scary Reminds me of a famous quote... > "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." I fell like there should be a hardware way of taking over that overwrites anything the software does.
- mcot2 5y ago
  There is. Tapping the brake pedal.
  - landa 5y ago
    Exactly. If you press the brakes the system gives complete control back to the driver. It's interesting to see all of the comments about the "horrifying" experiments Tesla is doing, and quoting science fiction movies about how robots are going to murder you. So much sensationalism.
    - mcot2 5y ago
      The FUD is unreal.
  - TigeriusKirk 5y ago
    I believe Tesla testing FSD on open roads is probably going to cost lives. I think they're aware of the game they're playing and they're taking more risks than is responsible. I also believe the driver in that video doesn't have the level-headedness to be testing anything anywhere. Which is a criticism both of the driver and of Tesla for letting people like that run the software on the open road.

lanevorockz 5y ago

No wonder Tesla is leaving California, over and over again you see corruption and government control taking over inovation.

alistairSH 5y ago
Asking why the DMV is allowing beta-quality autonomous driving systems on public roads is “corruption”? Lol.
- lanevorockz 5y ago
  Who determines Beta-Quality ? What you complain here is something all developed countries already allow, anyways .. let the lobbyist bribe whoever they want.
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    Tesla does. The program is literally called “Full Self Drive (FSD) Beta”!
kadoban 5y ago
Shouldn't the government ask why a "beta" software that's being sold as "full self driving" is operating with seemingly no oversight?
- option 5y ago
  while using it you are required to be fully in attention, keep your hands on the steering wheel and ready to take control at any time. What is not clear about that?
  - kadoban 5y ago
    What's not clear is if that's good enough. I doubt it is.
rdiddly 5y ago

andrewtbham 5y ago

[flagged]

gadnuk 5y ago
"This is the same woman that stated "fuck elon musk" on twitter," You are wrong. Lena Gonzalez (D-Long Beach) != Lorena Gonzalez (D-San Diego)
- Stupulous 5y ago
  Good catch. Tricky because Lena Gonzalez (D-Long Beach) || Lorena Gonzalez (D-San Diego) == Lena Gonzalez (D-)

dbsmith83 5y ago

> ...cited the apparent poor performance of what Tesla calls Full Self-Driving beta, a $10,000 option that gives owners advanced automated driving features and allows them to test cutting-edge autonomous technologies on public roads. (Beta is a software term that describes a product not quite ready for general sale to the public.) Wait, does this mean people are actually paying extra money to become test dummies for this?

catillac 5y ago
Yes, Tesla owner here. When you buy you’re given the option to purchase “FSD” for $10k. All the caveats reveal that it’s not really FSD though, of course, and you’re essentially paying for these partial FSD features and are a part of the testing (like opting into iOS beta, for example). You can go through the order flow on Teslas site and see this quickly.
avereveard 5y ago
yes, turns out "all our vehicle have the necessary hardware for full self driving" was another of the many boutades that aren't technically lies only because layers of fine print included and generous interpretations thereof from the Musk sycophants.
mcot2 5y ago
Edited to remove snarky reply of: “No, you should do some basic research first.” The FSD beta is no additional cost over the (currently) $10,000 package that adds additional AP capabilities and hardware upgrades. My computer was already upgraded for example.
- javajosh 5y ago
  You, too! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dbsmith83 5y ago
  > “No, you should do some basic research first.” Why should I? I read the article and can ask/talk about it here--discussion is literally the point.

mygoodaccount 5y ago

Slightly off topic, but it's fun to see company culture reflected in the algorithm behaviour. There are thousands of clips of Tesla's Fatal Self Driving being far too aggressive for American roads (https://nitter.net/taylorogan/status/1469404579439824899 https://nitter.net/taylorogan/status/1469404579439824899). Meanwhile, companies like AutoX have the problem of being far too conservative for Asian roads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=TFEvkmvIjVo https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=TFEvkmvIjVo). AutoX has some of the best edge case handling I've seen.

intrasight 5y ago
This I've long thought the be the Achilles' heel of autonomous. Even skilled human drivers have a hard time calibrating their style to the local situation. I remember the first time I drove as a passenger through Manhattan with my father driving, and couldn't get my head around his change in driving style. Was a side of him I'd never seen before - driving aggressively like a cab driver. I'm sure it came from his years of living in NYC.
- wpietri 5y ago
  For sure. Driving on a test track is a technical problem. Driving in traffic is a social problem. As you noted, how one drives in traffic is not just about getting somewhere, but about communicating and negotiating with other drivers around you. It's one of the things that makes me think that true self-driving may be in the AGI bucket.
  - capnhawkbill 5y ago
    If all the cars would be autonomous then this problem would be solved because they would all keep the same driving style right?
    - wpietri 5y ago
      Not at all. You really think somebody wouldn't program their cars to be more aggressive so that their owners get there faster?

staunch 5y ago

I'm a big fan of Tesla but I'm fairly certain that, at some point, they're going to voluntarily refund everyone the money they paid for self-driving. And, at some later point, they will probably make self-driving work but on a future generation of HW/SW. Genuine question: if this happens, will it kill Tesla to refund all of this money? I don't pay close enough attention to their financials to know myself. I assume (and hope) not.

jondwillis 5y ago
Software isn’t really a problem. What hardware changes do you think Tesla will need to make to deliver on FSD, whether that ends up being actual level 5 or not? it is also not that expensive to retrofit most new hardware, especially if it is just new silicon.
- mcot2 5y ago
  They have already done a hardware upgrade to my car from HW2.5->3, the nivida based solution to their own custom silicon. The $10,000 (now, $5000 when I bought it) includes all hardware upgrades.
brewdad 5y ago
I have seen nothing in Elon Musk's public persona to suggest he would ever voluntarily refund FSD beta fees. He might "voluntarily" do so under enough government pressure but he seems more likely to thumb his nose at regulators and take his chances on losing a class-action suit.

thinkmassive 5y ago

Note that there are two “FSD Beta” programs: 1. The paid software unlock for “Full Self Driving” (currently in “beta”) available to everyone, which provides automatic driving from on-ramp to off-ramp, and a handful of parking features like auto-park and summon: https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot#usingautopilot 2. The invite-only “FSD Beta” that unlocks the above FSD features on city streets, which is available to a subset of customers w/#1 who have very high Tesla Safety Scores.

jimkleiber 5y ago
I feel confused why 1) they would call both programs by the same name (arguing that an acronym is pretty much the same name) and 2) why the government even allows them to call it Full Self Driving, when there are levels of autonomous driving and I imagine most would assume Full means the highest level, which, Tesla has not yet achieved from everything I've read.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  If you wanted to stall and mire an investigation in process then having two separate systems named almost exactly the same thing and constantly quibbling over semantics of them would be a good way to do it.
- wongarsu 5y ago
  > I imagine most would assume Full means the highest level USB 2.0 got away with Full Speed/High Speed (with high being more than full)
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    Those weren't marketing names; that is, no-one was being presented with devices labeled "USB Full Speed (meaning USB1.1 full speed)" and buying them on the basis that that must be better than "USB High Speed".
  - bastawhiz 5y ago

ModernMech 5y ago

I really thought the breaks would have been slammed on Tesla's shipping of autonomous car software after the incident where the guy was decapitated by a tractor trailer.

mcot2 5y ago
At that time the system was merely lane keep with adaptive cruise control. Any system would have had a similar result at that time.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  should have had emergency auto-brake. As I understand it the radar either didn’t see the trailer or filtered it out as stationary - camera was unable to distinguish white steel from white sky - should have been a wake up call that current tech doesn’t have the sensory bandwidth to know if something is blocking the road.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  Not any system. My recollection of that specific event was that is was due to the bright white tractor trailer not being picked up by the Tesla's camera. A system built with an orthogonal sensor could have picked up the trailer despite the camera missing it (e.g. a LIDAR). Proper fusion of those streams would have avoided the issue, and that person would be alive, or at least not dead because of Tesla's poorly engineered system.
  - mcot2 5y ago
    To clarify, any adaptive cruise system in deployment at that time.
ec109685 5y ago
The question is whether overall the technology makes Tesla drivers more safe. They’ve shown data that drivers with the autopilot features enabled are safer than those who do not have it on. While you can dispute the data, it’s not as simple as “car makes one type of mistake”, “feature should be banned”.

neonate 5y ago

https://archive.md/KxyfE https://archive.md/KxyfE

mikeiz404 5y ago
Reader view works too (on mobile)

mcot2 5y ago

Actual user of the beta here. Happy to answer any questions that are honest. My opinion is let the technology develop in the open, warts and all.

Jxl180 5y ago
My delivery isn’t until June but I’ve held off on buying FSD (maybe I’ll enable it for the month when I do a long trip), but I’m worried about this fantom braking issue I’ve heard about.
- sroussey 5y ago
  I would get an older one. Newer ones lack the expensive radar component. Camera-only can be disabled by kids with a Q-beam (bright flashlight).
  - mcot2 5y ago
    On the contrary phantom braking for me was almost always caused by the radars and especially with overpasses in front of you.
- mcot2 5y ago
  You will have basic autopilot which can also phantom brake. It is not as bad as it seems and was possibly worse when they used radar. As long as you are attentive to the system it is not a big deal.
  - soco 5y ago
    But why would I bother to buy an autonomous driver if I must be attentive to the system? I can just drive it myself then.
halotrope 5y ago
Does it work?
- 5y ago

nickpp 5y ago

When a 16-year old kids starts learning to drive on the city streets, is anybody alarmed? I doubt that is much safer. We should treat the AIs just as children at this point. They are simply learning.

thebruce87m 5y ago
Along this vein, let’s have some sort of visual indicator on the car when it’s self driving, maybe a green light on the front/back the same way that we flag learners. That way other drivers can be extra cautious when in the vicinity. I’m not sure this would have helped the Tesla that steered into oncoming traffic. Luckily for the other driver the Tesla driver reacted and crashed off on the other direction. If he hadn’t done that I don’t think the other driver would have had the time to react even if he was aware of the danger the Tesla posed.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jakear 5y ago

This is why I drive a big truck. When egomaniacs can trick the government into allowing them to set their half baked creations loose on public roads using unknowing and unwilling third parties as test subjects, I want to be the dominant term in any and all conservation of momentum equations that may ensue. As an aside, I’ve driven maybe 50,000 miles in my lifetime. Of those, 47,000+ are using pre-2005 vehicles with zero “advanced safety features”. However, I can recall two times in my driving career where I felt collision was imminent, and both of them occurred in the <5% of the time I was driving with “advanced safety features”. Yes, the computer was able to step in and avoid a collision, but it strikes me as odd that the only times I’ve needed it are when it’s available. In my opinion these new cars lull me into a false sense of security where I do not give appropriate attention to road conditions. Has anyone noticed the same? I fear that as the technology gets better and better people will pay less and less attention, putting more and more lives at risk when things inevitably go wrong.

rp1 5y ago
What does a big truck have to do with safety features? To me, it just sounds like you’re happy to pollute the environment just so you’re sure to annihilate your counter party in an accident.
- jakear 5y ago
  As I said, momentum. Are you familiar with newton's laws?
- mcot2 5y ago
  Many studies have shown (and basic physics suggests) that the survivabity of accidents goes way up with vehicle weight all other things being mostly equal. https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight
sterlind 5y ago
Interesting game equilibrium. You buy a big truck because you're threatened by lightweight Teslas. I buy a semitruck to protect myself from you. A few cycles later, everyone's screaming around like Snowpiercer in APCs and military bulldozers.

satisfice 5y ago

If I had the money to buy an expensive car, I would want to drive it myself. If I could buy an airplane, I would want to fly it myself, too. I don’t understand rich guys who fork over for what is essentially a baby carriage pushed by a robot nanny. Where is your self-respect?

lostmsu 5y ago
So you can't imagine what people would prefer over driving expensive cars? :D
- satisfice 5y ago
  No. And I am not sure what substance you abused that caused you to misinterpret me in that way. Perhaps caffeine? Let’s go with caffeine. I once owned a sports car. I bought it because I enjoy driving. I am saying that I, as a red blooded American man, do not understand why other men who are in the market for an expensive car would choose to purchase what is functionally a nannyless pram.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    The only way you couldn't understand why people would prefer not driving a sporty car they can afford is for you to be unable to imagine a better way to spend time in a sporty car that doesn't involve driving it. As you can see with me understanding exactly what you said, you tend to jump to conclusions while not understanding things. Maybe that explains the inability to grasp "rich people" motives.