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Unfortunate that the title got cut off: "Six Amazon workers killed after tornadoes reduce warehouse near St. Louis to rubble" But the bigger story here is that

Unfortunate that the title got cut off: "Six Amazon workers killed after tornadoes reduce warehouse near St. Louis to rubble" But the bigger story here is that despite multiple warnings of dangerous weather, the workers at this warehouse still ended up having to choose between risking their life or being fired/written up for refusing to come in. They didn't feel like they had the power to say "No, I won't work because its too dangerous" and some of that paid for that with their lives. Everyone responsible for that decision should be prosecuted criminally for each of those deaths.

fastball 5y ago
> They didn't feel like they had the power to say You definitely don't know this. Please don't speak to the mindset of people that just died when you have no idea.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  14 people died at an Amazon facility when they were asked to work during Hurricane Ida, why does this theory seem so far-fetched to you? https://gizmodo.com/new-york-amazon-employees-had-to-work-during-deadly-flo-1847606546 https://gizmodo.com/new-york-amazon-employees-had-to-work-du...
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    You posted this elsewhere in the thread but I just want to clarify here as well. 14 people in the whole new York area were killed. No Amazon workers.
  - syshum 5y ago
    because tornado;s are not hurricane, and you literally only get a few minutes notice... not days like you do with a hurricane Unless you think every business should shut down every time there is a tornado watch issued, which hell they issue those like candy the entirety of spring and summer around here we would never get anything done if we shut down for every tornado watch
    - HarryHirsch 5y ago
      Operating procedure at a former workplace in Texas was that during a Tornado Warning sheltering in a designated tornado shelter was mandatory. The question should be: was there a tornado warning, and was there any employee not in a tornado room?
      - BeetleB 5y ago
        > Operating procedure at a former workplace in Texas was that during a Tornado Warning sheltering in a designated tornado shelter was mandatory. See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29526164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29526164 It was mandatory where I worked too. That most people didn't seek shelter was not a fault of the employer.
        genocidicbunny 5y ago
        It absolutely was the fault of the employer. There are plenty of things the employer could have done to make seeking shelter the more attractive option. Halt and Safe all the machines. Push back any imminent deadlines to account for the shutdown so the employees can avoid worrying about any consequences from a production delay. Provide adequate shelter that employees would feel comfortable with. Yes, you can't force everyone, but I would bet that most people would take shelter given the right incentives/exception from negative consequences.
        BeetleB 5y ago
        In my job, shutting machines wasn't feasible (well, they could kill the Internet I suppose). As for the rest, no one would get hurt by imminent deadlines, etc. We worked on the timescale of months, not hours or days. I can assure you: Not a single person in my building was concerned about missing deadlines if they went to the shelter. As I said, people are people. Most people I know drive over the speed limit, because everyone does it, and because the likelihood of it hurting them is low. Same principle here. I'm all for everyone going to the shelter, just as I'm all for severe penalties for going over the speed limit. Most people, though, are OK going over the speed limit but not OK with people not sheltering when there's a tornado. It's almost always the case that such people have never lived in a tornado zone and cannot comprehend the dynamics of the situation.
  - pbourke 5y ago
    You wrote: > 14 people died at an Amazon facility This is false. From the article that you linked: > Even as floods that have killed at least 14 swept through the city, warehouses remained open.
- naikrovek 5y ago
  it feels more like you don't know what actually happens in the real world. every single one of us (employees of large companies) are completely and wholly expendable in the eyes of the people who run the companies we work for, when compared against potentially lost profit. we all know this. we work at these places anyway because there are no places to work which are not like this. not only are we expendable, we only have the tiny value that we have as assets because the law strongly encourages employers to view us as having some value. if the risk of profit loss outweighs the risk of paying to recover from personnel loss, people are gonna regularly die working for that company. leadership doesn't even call things like this "loss" but the "cost of doing business".
deleted 5y ago
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asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Can you post some citation for these allegations? Maybe this is being widely reported and I've just missed it, but I'm not aware of positive evidence for the allegations you've made.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  https://twitter.com/JonathanAhl/status/1469809376894541825 https://twitter.com/JonathanAhl/status/1469809376894541825 Governor says it happened during shift change. Active tornado warning in the area at the time.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    I mean I get that they were at work. Shift change or whatever does not seem to make that big a difference. What's not clear to me is whether any of the workers were coerced to come in (i.e. they said they didn't want to and Amazon said they must regardless). And whether Amazon knew or ought to know that this would unacceptably increase the risk of harm (i.e. that a tornado was in fact likely and that being at work was much more dangerous than wherever else the workers might be). I would also be interested in the standard practice at other workplaces in tornado alley. St Louis area gets four tornados a year on average, plus some additional number of warnings that don't end up being tornados. Is it the standard practice of workplaces to shut down in such situations? I don't remember tornado warnings being that big of a deal when I lived there but admittedly I was a dumb college kid at the time so what did I know. I guess my point is that allegations of wrongdoing would seem to be very slightly jumping the gun in this situation. Plays well to a certain audience but there will be plenty of time for finger pointing once we know more.
    - syshum 5y ago
      >>I would also be interested in the standard practice at other workplaces in tornado alley For my Employer, in a high tornado state.. Watch: Monitor but no change in business Warning: Equipment is shut down, employee move to interior rooms approved as "shelters" (i.e no windows, normally slightly reinforced, etc), until the warning is cleared, or confirmation of the tornado's path as no chance of hitting facility. I have seen other ask the question of "why was the facility open during the warning", questions like that show an extreme ignorance of how tornado's work, and warnings are issued, Warnings are normally short lived events not hours or days long. Warnings last like 15-30mins... Another problem with warnings is many of them have no actual tornado attached to them. It is clear a large amount of the user base has never lived in a high tornado state, I have my entire life.
barney54 5y ago
The article doesn’t say that. Where’s an article that says they had to come in despite the dangerous storms?
- tylermac1 5y ago
  This came across my Twitter feed just now: https://twitter.com/LCampbell_35/status/1469815411462000647 https://twitter.com/LCampbell_35/status/1469815411462000647 Seems credible based on photos.
- wk_end 5y ago
  Given the long history of labour abuse that's occurred on Amazon's watch at their warehouses and for their delivery drivers, at this point do they deserve the benefit of the doubt? Do you think these people came in to work at the warehouse while the weather reports blared tornado warnings out of love for their job and loyalty to Bezos?
  - dessant 5y ago
    Not sure why you're being downvoted, the events are already evidence that the facility was not shut down during a tornado that was known to hit the area. Workers were changing shifts when the tornadoes hit.
    - tedivm 5y ago
      This site has a very anti-labor bias, as most people here expect to be running companies (or already do).
      - tpmx 5y ago
        "This site" has a very strong dislike for politically motivated speculation masquerading as fact.
        BingoAhoy 5y ago
madrox 5y ago
I'm not sure that really is the story. Homes are not exactly safer, and there was a tornado warning for all of Madison county. Perhaps you've seen photos of what these things do to small wooden structures. Yes, their home was probably ok from this particular tornado, but I think that has more to do with luck than safety.
- kadoban 5y ago
  Being alert and prepared is safer, and neither is all that possible while working.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    Especially working where they track how long it takes to reach for a product and place it in a box, and that action is repeated multiple times a minute for the entire shift. All employees are on the edge of panic at all times.
- genocidicbunny 5y ago
  Sure their homes may not have been safer, but they would have had more opportunities to get to a shelter, or to find somewhere safe, as compared to having to be at work picking shelves in a warehouse built to the minimum spec/cost.
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    Well, they could have just... done exactly that.
    - enragedcacti 5y ago
      Will Amazon count that as Time off Task every time the warehouse isn't hit by a tornado?
  - gizmo686 5y ago
    The official advice in the first warning: PRECAUTIONARY/PREPAREDNESS ACTIONS... To repeat, a tornado is on the ground. TAKE COVER NOW! Move to a basement or an interior room on the lowest floor of a sturdy building. Avoid windows. If you are outdoors, in a mobile home, or in a vehicle, move to the closest substantial shelter and protect yourself from flying debris. https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/#2021-O-NEW-KLSX-TO-W-0049/USCOMP-N0Q-202112110135 https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/#2021-O-NEW-KLSX-TO-W... If you are in a reasonable building (such as a typical home) when a tornado warning is issued, do not seek alternative shelter. Seek the most secure area of the building you are already in. You can search all the warnings/watches here: https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/search.php#byugc/MOC189 https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/search.php#byugc/MOC1... I will note that the watch (which proceeded the warning) suggested to precautionary action. https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/#2021-O-NEW-KLSX-TO-A-0553/USCOMP-N0Q-202112102320 https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/#2021-O-NEW-KLSX-TO-A...
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- alisonkisk 5y ago
  has a tornado ever hit the gym? Do you if it would survive?
JCM9 5y ago
The article doesn’t support what you are saying. Do you have evidence to support these theories? What happened is terrible and is part of a much broader natural disaster. Trying to turn this into some shallow Amazon shaming is unfortunate.
- coding123 5y ago
  This data goes well beyond this specific article.
- genocidicbunny 5y ago
  I'm not trying to shame Amazon; Not any more than I would be any other company. If this had been a Walmart or a Target or a Trader Joe's warehouse, I would have said the same. When there's tornadoes about, the first thing companies should tell their workers is 'Find somewhere safe to shelter, don't worry about the job or reducing damage to the company. Just make sure you're safe' (and if located somewhere known for tornadoes, also providing adequate shelter) is the bare minimum that companies should be expected to do/provide. Six people died in a <Company> warehouse. This shouldn't have happened, regardless of <Company>.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    > When there's tornadoes about, the first thing companies should tell their workers is 'Find somewhere safe to shelter, don't worry about the job or reducing damage to the company. I worked in the Midwest for a number of years. Every time there was a tornado siren, an attempt would be made to alert everyone in the building. We were to go to the shelter in the basement and/or 1st floor. Only a minority would actually get up and move there. Worse, many would go to wall size windows to see the storm outside. There's no way security can force the majority of workers to move. All they can do is walk around and warn. Did people not go because they were worried about productivity dropping? No! They didn't go because they hear these sirens often enough (a few times every summer) and simply ignored them, because the odds of getting hurt appear low.[1] So to me, reading people imply that they got killed because of capitalism is ludicrous. Simpler explanations exist. Also, tornado shelters are not perfect. Also, tornado shelters at work locations often are safer than ones at home. I know when I lived there, I always preferred to be in the office when a tornado siren hit. My home didn't have a basement, and you're not supposed to be in any room that has a window. That meant I should be either in the kitchen or the bathroom. At least the shelter at work was much bigger - you could walk around, etc. [1] For that city, a tornado touches down there once every twenty years, and even that will be in a limited part of town. Not saying this is a good rationale, but humans will be humans.
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gizmo686 5y ago
What is the counter factual where the workers' don't risk their lives? My intuition is that an Amazon warehouse is safer than a typical home during a tornado. And many homes were completely destroyed during this event as well. With the benifit of hindsight, it would have been better if no one was at that particular warehouse. But we can only say that because we know where the tornado hit with an accuracy that is no where near possible to achieve ahead of time.
- enragedcacti 5y ago
  My understanding is that a house with a basement or other underground structure is likely far safer than the warehouse floor. Without a basement you are at much more risk but there are ways to personally mitigate risk like tornado straps and reinforced garage doors. > The safest place to be is a reinforced concrete building, but if that’s not an option a basement really is your best bet. An analysis of the Oklahoma tornado outbreak of May 1999, which featured an EF5 (i.e., scale-topping monster) twister, found that out of 40 deaths, 133 severe injuries, and 265 minor injuries, the total harm inflicted on people holed up in basements amounted to just one minor injury. https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/217899/straight-dope-in-tornado-is-basement-a-life-saver/ https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/217899/straight-dope... not sure where they sourced from but shouldn't be too hard to find given the exact numbers quoted. The ideal scenario is that the warehouse would have a reinforced concrete tornado shelter (or multiple given the size) and a mandatory work stoppage whenever a tornado emergency is declared.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    My fear is the house will collapse and trap me in the basement.
- TylerE 5y ago
  A warehouse is a very bad place to be... what kills you is flying objects, not the wind itself.
  - jessaustin 5y ago

fastball 5y ago

> They didn't feel like they had the power to say You definitely don't know this. Please don't speak to the mindset of people that just died when you have no idea.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago
14 people died at an Amazon facility when they were asked to work during Hurricane Ida, why does this theory seem so far-fetched to you? https://gizmodo.com/new-york-amazon-employees-had-to-work-during-deadly-flo-1847606546 https://gizmodo.com/new-york-amazon-employees-had-to-work-du...
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  You posted this elsewhere in the thread but I just want to clarify here as well. 14 people in the whole new York area were killed. No Amazon workers.
- syshum 5y ago
  because tornado;s are not hurricane, and you literally only get a few minutes notice... not days like you do with a hurricane Unless you think every business should shut down every time there is a tornado watch issued, which hell they issue those like candy the entirety of spring and summer around here we would never get anything done if we shut down for every tornado watch
  - HarryHirsch 5y ago
    Operating procedure at a former workplace in Texas was that during a Tornado Warning sheltering in a designated tornado shelter was mandatory. The question should be: was there a tornado warning, and was there any employee not in a tornado room?
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      > Operating procedure at a former workplace in Texas was that during a Tornado Warning sheltering in a designated tornado shelter was mandatory. See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29526164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29526164 It was mandatory where I worked too. That most people didn't seek shelter was not a fault of the employer.
      - genocidicbunny 5y ago
        It absolutely was the fault of the employer. There are plenty of things the employer could have done to make seeking shelter the more attractive option. Halt and Safe all the machines. Push back any imminent deadlines to account for the shutdown so the employees can avoid worrying about any consequences from a production delay. Provide adequate shelter that employees would feel comfortable with. Yes, you can't force everyone, but I would bet that most people would take shelter given the right incentives/exception from negative consequences.
        BeetleB 5y ago
        In my job, shutting machines wasn't feasible (well, they could kill the Internet I suppose). As for the rest, no one would get hurt by imminent deadlines, etc. We worked on the timescale of months, not hours or days. I can assure you: Not a single person in my building was concerned about missing deadlines if they went to the shelter. As I said, people are people. Most people I know drive over the speed limit, because everyone does it, and because the likelihood of it hurting them is low. Same principle here. I'm all for everyone going to the shelter, just as I'm all for severe penalties for going over the speed limit. Most people, though, are OK going over the speed limit but not OK with people not sheltering when there's a tornado. It's almost always the case that such people have never lived in a tornado zone and cannot comprehend the dynamics of the situation.
- pbourke 5y ago
  You wrote: > 14 people died at an Amazon facility This is false. From the article that you linked: > Even as floods that have killed at least 14 swept through the city, warehouses remained open.
naikrovek 5y ago
it feels more like you don't know what actually happens in the real world. every single one of us (employees of large companies) are completely and wholly expendable in the eyes of the people who run the companies we work for, when compared against potentially lost profit. we all know this. we work at these places anyway because there are no places to work which are not like this. not only are we expendable, we only have the tiny value that we have as assets because the law strongly encourages employers to view us as having some value. if the risk of profit loss outweighs the risk of paying to recover from personnel loss, people are gonna regularly die working for that company. leadership doesn't even call things like this "loss" but the "cost of doing business".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago

Can you post some citation for these allegations? Maybe this is being widely reported and I've just missed it, but I'm not aware of positive evidence for the allegations you've made.

ceejayoz 5y ago
https://twitter.com/JonathanAhl/status/1469809376894541825 https://twitter.com/JonathanAhl/status/1469809376894541825 Governor says it happened during shift change. Active tornado warning in the area at the time.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  I mean I get that they were at work. Shift change or whatever does not seem to make that big a difference. What's not clear to me is whether any of the workers were coerced to come in (i.e. they said they didn't want to and Amazon said they must regardless). And whether Amazon knew or ought to know that this would unacceptably increase the risk of harm (i.e. that a tornado was in fact likely and that being at work was much more dangerous than wherever else the workers might be). I would also be interested in the standard practice at other workplaces in tornado alley. St Louis area gets four tornados a year on average, plus some additional number of warnings that don't end up being tornados. Is it the standard practice of workplaces to shut down in such situations? I don't remember tornado warnings being that big of a deal when I lived there but admittedly I was a dumb college kid at the time so what did I know. I guess my point is that allegations of wrongdoing would seem to be very slightly jumping the gun in this situation. Plays well to a certain audience but there will be plenty of time for finger pointing once we know more.
  - syshum 5y ago
    >>I would also be interested in the standard practice at other workplaces in tornado alley For my Employer, in a high tornado state.. Watch: Monitor but no change in business Warning: Equipment is shut down, employee move to interior rooms approved as "shelters" (i.e no windows, normally slightly reinforced, etc), until the warning is cleared, or confirmation of the tornado's path as no chance of hitting facility. I have seen other ask the question of "why was the facility open during the warning", questions like that show an extreme ignorance of how tornado's work, and warnings are issued, Warnings are normally short lived events not hours or days long. Warnings last like 15-30mins... Another problem with warnings is many of them have no actual tornado attached to them. It is clear a large amount of the user base has never lived in a high tornado state, I have my entire life.

barney54 5y ago

The article doesn’t say that. Where’s an article that says they had to come in despite the dangerous storms?

tylermac1 5y ago
This came across my Twitter feed just now: https://twitter.com/LCampbell_35/status/1469815411462000647 https://twitter.com/LCampbell_35/status/1469815411462000647 Seems credible based on photos.
wk_end 5y ago
Given the long history of labour abuse that's occurred on Amazon's watch at their warehouses and for their delivery drivers, at this point do they deserve the benefit of the doubt? Do you think these people came in to work at the warehouse while the weather reports blared tornado warnings out of love for their job and loyalty to Bezos?
- dessant 5y ago
  Not sure why you're being downvoted, the events are already evidence that the facility was not shut down during a tornado that was known to hit the area. Workers were changing shifts when the tornadoes hit.
  - tedivm 5y ago
    This site has a very anti-labor bias, as most people here expect to be running companies (or already do).
    - tpmx 5y ago
      "This site" has a very strong dislike for politically motivated speculation masquerading as fact.
      - BingoAhoy 5y ago

madrox 5y ago

I'm not sure that really is the story. Homes are not exactly safer, and there was a tornado warning for all of Madison county. Perhaps you've seen photos of what these things do to small wooden structures. Yes, their home was probably ok from this particular tornado, but I think that has more to do with luck than safety.

kadoban 5y ago
Being alert and prepared is safer, and neither is all that possible while working.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  Especially working where they track how long it takes to reach for a product and place it in a box, and that action is repeated multiple times a minute for the entire shift. All employees are on the edge of panic at all times.
genocidicbunny 5y ago
Sure their homes may not have been safer, but they would have had more opportunities to get to a shelter, or to find somewhere safe, as compared to having to be at work picking shelves in a warehouse built to the minimum spec/cost.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  Well, they could have just... done exactly that.
  - enragedcacti 5y ago
    Will Amazon count that as Time off Task every time the warehouse isn't hit by a tornado?
- gizmo686 5y ago
  The official advice in the first warning: PRECAUTIONARY/PREPAREDNESS ACTIONS... To repeat, a tornado is on the ground. TAKE COVER NOW! Move to a basement or an interior room on the lowest floor of a sturdy building. Avoid windows. If you are outdoors, in a mobile home, or in a vehicle, move to the closest substantial shelter and protect yourself from flying debris. https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/#2021-O-NEW-KLSX-TO-W-0049/USCOMP-N0Q-202112110135 https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/#2021-O-NEW-KLSX-TO-W... If you are in a reasonable building (such as a typical home) when a tornado warning is issued, do not seek alternative shelter. Seek the most secure area of the building you are already in. You can search all the warnings/watches here: https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/search.php#byugc/MOC189 https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/search.php#byugc/MOC1... I will note that the watch (which proceeded the warning) suggested to precautionary action. https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/#2021-O-NEW-KLSX-TO-A-0553/USCOMP-N0Q-202112102320 https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/vtec/#2021-O-NEW-KLSX-TO-A...

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alisonkisk 5y ago
has a tornado ever hit the gym? Do you if it would survive?

JCM9 5y ago

The article doesn’t support what you are saying. Do you have evidence to support these theories? What happened is terrible and is part of a much broader natural disaster. Trying to turn this into some shallow Amazon shaming is unfortunate.

coding123 5y ago
This data goes well beyond this specific article.
genocidicbunny 5y ago
I'm not trying to shame Amazon; Not any more than I would be any other company. If this had been a Walmart or a Target or a Trader Joe's warehouse, I would have said the same. When there's tornadoes about, the first thing companies should tell their workers is 'Find somewhere safe to shelter, don't worry about the job or reducing damage to the company. Just make sure you're safe' (and if located somewhere known for tornadoes, also providing adequate shelter) is the bare minimum that companies should be expected to do/provide. Six people died in a <Company> warehouse. This shouldn't have happened, regardless of <Company>.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  > When there's tornadoes about, the first thing companies should tell their workers is 'Find somewhere safe to shelter, don't worry about the job or reducing damage to the company. I worked in the Midwest for a number of years. Every time there was a tornado siren, an attempt would be made to alert everyone in the building. We were to go to the shelter in the basement and/or 1st floor. Only a minority would actually get up and move there. Worse, many would go to wall size windows to see the storm outside. There's no way security can force the majority of workers to move. All they can do is walk around and warn. Did people not go because they were worried about productivity dropping? No! They didn't go because they hear these sirens often enough (a few times every summer) and simply ignored them, because the odds of getting hurt appear low.[1] So to me, reading people imply that they got killed because of capitalism is ludicrous. Simpler explanations exist. Also, tornado shelters are not perfect. Also, tornado shelters at work locations often are safer than ones at home. I know when I lived there, I always preferred to be in the office when a tornado siren hit. My home didn't have a basement, and you're not supposed to be in any room that has a window. That meant I should be either in the kitchen or the bathroom. At least the shelter at work was much bigger - you could walk around, etc. [1] For that city, a tornado touches down there once every twenty years, and even that will be in a limited part of town. Not saying this is a good rationale, but humans will be humans.

deleted 5y ago

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gizmo686 5y ago

What is the counter factual where the workers' don't risk their lives? My intuition is that an Amazon warehouse is safer than a typical home during a tornado. And many homes were completely destroyed during this event as well. With the benifit of hindsight, it would have been better if no one was at that particular warehouse. But we can only say that because we know where the tornado hit with an accuracy that is no where near possible to achieve ahead of time.

enragedcacti 5y ago
My understanding is that a house with a basement or other underground structure is likely far safer than the warehouse floor. Without a basement you are at much more risk but there are ways to personally mitigate risk like tornado straps and reinforced garage doors. > The safest place to be is a reinforced concrete building, but if that’s not an option a basement really is your best bet. An analysis of the Oklahoma tornado outbreak of May 1999, which featured an EF5 (i.e., scale-topping monster) twister, found that out of 40 deaths, 133 severe injuries, and 265 minor injuries, the total harm inflicted on people holed up in basements amounted to just one minor injury. https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/217899/straight-dope-in-tornado-is-basement-a-life-saver/ https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/217899/straight-dope... not sure where they sourced from but shouldn't be too hard to find given the exact numbers quoted. The ideal scenario is that the warehouse would have a reinforced concrete tornado shelter (or multiple given the size) and a mandatory work stoppage whenever a tornado emergency is declared.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  My fear is the house will collapse and trap me in the basement.
TylerE 5y ago
A warehouse is a very bad place to be... what kills you is flying objects, not the wind itself.
- jessaustin 5y ago