8 ms·

Impressive if it actually ships. Level 3 is really where things start to get real in terms of liability for the manufacturer.

by kart23 5y ago

KennyBlanken 5y ago
Not really sure that should be a metric, given that Tesla Autopilot (which shipped, what, a decade ago?) still likes to ram into the back of parked emergency vehicles (a problem they have "acknowledged") and randomly brake heavily (a problem they haven't, but just hit up youtube and you can find dozens of examples of it doing it to varying degrees of severity.)
- adrr 5y ago
  Tesla is level 2
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- MBCook 5y ago
  Yes, but Tesla uses the excuse that the driver is supposed to be paying attention at all times because it’s only a “driver assistance” system. (Not that the name would ever imply something else. No.) But once you’ve explicitly told the driver they don’t have to pay attention, you don’t have that excuse anymore.
  - onethought 5y ago
    Pilots treat autopilot as an assistance system… so it seems apt.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- detaro 5y ago
  That's the point of parents comment: Tesla (and every other assist) is Level 2, and thus can always blame the driver for not paying attention and doesn't take responsibility in the same way a Level 3 product has to, which explicitly tells users they don't have to focus on driving but can do other things.
- postingawayonhn 5y ago
  > which shipped, what, a decade ago? No, only 6 years ago. In 2011 they hadn't even started selling the Model S.
deltree7 5y ago
The liability concern is almost always raised by people who don't do actuarial math. For a given set of parameters (car/driver/environment) it gets to an accident every X miles causing Y$ in damage. This Y$ is paid out by pool of insurance money which a group of owners have already paid for. Self Driving car is no different. In fact, the Car manufacturers will have more data to ascertain the 'blame' and fewer accidents every X miles and they can actually insure the drivers directly at a much lower rate. Car manufacturers will pay the much lower Y$ from this insurance pool
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  > Self Driving car is no different. In fact, the Car manufacturers will have more data to ascertain the 'blame' and fewer accidents every X miles and they can insure the drivers at a much lower rate. They will happily pay from this pool "More self driving capabilities means fewer crashes per mile which means they're cheaper to insure" hasn't really panned out with Teslas. In 2018, Teslas had three times the fatality per mile rate of similar luxury cars: https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r... Teslas are also ludicrously more expensive to repair, and often parts availability is so bad that cars are "totaled" or the owner gets stuck in limbo - the insurance company says "well, we're happy to pay out, when you get the repair done..." and Tesla body shops and service centers have months long backups. Result? Teslas, despite getting into fewer crashes per mile than the average, are much more expensive to insure than other cars. The full self driving "beta" looks to be even worse, from sampling a couple of youtube videos of it "driving." The average age of a car in the US is 12 years old, by the way, which significantly skews things away from all the cars that have ADAS features)
  - slaw 5y ago
    Tesla doesn’t have any self driving vehicles yet. We don’t know what will be insurance rates for L3 vehicles as Mercedes will be one of the first available to public.
  - deltree7 5y ago
MereInterest 5y ago
L2/L3 is also at a point where the only reason to have a human in the control loop at all is to pass the buck for any accidents. A 2016 study found that reaction times are absolutely pitiful unless the driver is actively driving. After passing control from the automation to the human, it takes about 15-20 seconds for your reaction time to get up to the level of a drunk driver. The human in the front seat of a L3 car isn't the driver. They're the scapegoat. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1541931213601423 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/154193121360142...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  L2 is much more of a scapegoat. With L3 even if your reactions aren't warmed up you can probably manage a perfectly good slow/stop. Do you have a link that leads to that actual study?
  - MereInterest 5y ago
    I think it depends on how the handoff is being performed. If the automated system notices weather conditions beyond its training, then pulls over to hand off control, that is reasonable. If the automated system notices that it's getting into a dangerous and immediate situation, then the 15 seconds needed for a human to become engaged with the task are enough that the situation has already passed. Found it, though unfortunately I couldn't find any non-paywall links. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1541931213601424 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/154193121360142...
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      It depends on how immediate things are, because you need a certain amount of warning to quality as level 3. A sufficiently rapid switchoff into danger puts you more in level 2 territory.
- sofixa 5y ago
legulere 5y ago
Mercedes-Benz will take on liability in this case.
NullPrefix 5y ago
manufacturer?

Impressive if it actually ships. Level 3 is really where things start to get real in terms of liability for the manufacturer.

by kart23 5y ago

Impressive if it actually ships. Level 3 is really where things start to get real in terms of liability for the manufacturer.

KennyBlanken 5y ago

Not really sure that should be a metric, given that Tesla Autopilot (which shipped, what, a decade ago?) still likes to ram into the back of parked emergency vehicles (a problem they have "acknowledged") and randomly brake heavily (a problem they haven't, but just hit up youtube and you can find dozens of examples of it doing it to varying degrees of severity.)

adrr 5y ago
Tesla is level 2
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MBCook 5y ago
Yes, but Tesla uses the excuse that the driver is supposed to be paying attention at all times because it’s only a “driver assistance” system. (Not that the name would ever imply something else. No.) But once you’ve explicitly told the driver they don’t have to pay attention, you don’t have that excuse anymore.
- onethought 5y ago
  Pilots treat autopilot as an assistance system… so it seems apt.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
detaro 5y ago
That's the point of parents comment: Tesla (and every other assist) is Level 2, and thus can always blame the driver for not paying attention and doesn't take responsibility in the same way a Level 3 product has to, which explicitly tells users they don't have to focus on driving but can do other things.
postingawayonhn 5y ago
> which shipped, what, a decade ago? No, only 6 years ago. In 2011 they hadn't even started selling the Model S.

deltree7 5y ago

The liability concern is almost always raised by people who don't do actuarial math. For a given set of parameters (car/driver/environment) it gets to an accident every X miles causing Y$ in damage. This Y$ is paid out by pool of insurance money which a group of owners have already paid for. Self Driving car is no different. In fact, the Car manufacturers will have more data to ascertain the 'blame' and fewer accidents every X miles and they can actually insure the drivers directly at a much lower rate. Car manufacturers will pay the much lower Y$ from this insurance pool

KennyBlanken 5y ago
> Self Driving car is no different. In fact, the Car manufacturers will have more data to ascertain the 'blame' and fewer accidents every X miles and they can insure the drivers at a much lower rate. They will happily pay from this pool "More self driving capabilities means fewer crashes per mile which means they're cheaper to insure" hasn't really panned out with Teslas. In 2018, Teslas had three times the fatality per mile rate of similar luxury cars: https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r... Teslas are also ludicrously more expensive to repair, and often parts availability is so bad that cars are "totaled" or the owner gets stuck in limbo - the insurance company says "well, we're happy to pay out, when you get the repair done..." and Tesla body shops and service centers have months long backups. Result? Teslas, despite getting into fewer crashes per mile than the average, are much more expensive to insure than other cars. The full self driving "beta" looks to be even worse, from sampling a couple of youtube videos of it "driving." The average age of a car in the US is 12 years old, by the way, which significantly skews things away from all the cars that have ADAS features)
- slaw 5y ago
  Tesla doesn’t have any self driving vehicles yet. We don’t know what will be insurance rates for L3 vehicles as Mercedes will be one of the first available to public.
- deltree7 5y ago

MereInterest 5y ago

L2/L3 is also at a point where the only reason to have a human in the control loop at all is to pass the buck for any accidents. A 2016 study found that reaction times are absolutely pitiful unless the driver is actively driving. After passing control from the automation to the human, it takes about 15-20 seconds for your reaction time to get up to the level of a drunk driver. The human in the front seat of a L3 car isn't the driver. They're the scapegoat. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1541931213601423 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/154193121360142...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Dylan16807 5y ago
L2 is much more of a scapegoat. With L3 even if your reactions aren't warmed up you can probably manage a perfectly good slow/stop. Do you have a link that leads to that actual study?
- MereInterest 5y ago
  I think it depends on how the handoff is being performed. If the automated system notices weather conditions beyond its training, then pulls over to hand off control, that is reasonable. If the automated system notices that it's getting into a dangerous and immediate situation, then the 15 seconds needed for a human to become engaged with the task are enough that the situation has already passed. Found it, though unfortunately I couldn't find any non-paywall links. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1541931213601424 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/154193121360142...
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    It depends on how immediate things are, because you need a certain amount of warning to quality as level 3. A sufficiently rapid switchoff into danger puts you more in level 2 territory.
sofixa 5y ago

legulere 5y ago

Mercedes-Benz will take on liability in this case.

NullPrefix 5y ago

manufacturer?