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Magnus Carlsen retains title after winning lopsided match
- v64 5y agoThis match was notable for a number of reasons: 1) Game 6 lasted 136 moves, making it the longest game in world championship history, surpassing the 124 move game 5 of Korchnoi-Karpov in 1978. 2) Carlsen's victory in game 6 was also the first decisive match game (excluding tiebreakers) since game 10 of Carlsen's defense against Karjakin in 2016. Carlsen's defense against Caruana in 2018 featured 12 draws before moving into tiebreakers. 3) Carlsen won this match 7.5-3.5, making it the most lopsided victory since Capablanca defeated Lasker 9-5 in 1921.
- throwaway81523 5y agoThere was Fischer-Spassky, 12.5 to 8.5 in 1972, where one of Spassky's 8.5 points came from Fischer forfeiting a game by not showing up.
- v64 5y agoAlthough Fischer achieved the same 4 point margin, Spassky had 3 victories (including the forfeit) in that match, whereas both Lasker and Nepomniachtchi had none.
- AlchemistCamp 5y ago1921 was before 1972, so the magnitude of that blow-out has no relevance to whether or not the match in 2021 was the most lopsided since then.
- alisonkisk 5y agoThe doesn't mean much, just that Fischer-Spassky were less careful.
- tzs 5y agoWith Fischer his lopsided path to the championship should also be considered. In the 1970 Interzonal to pick 6 players to go to the Candidates Tournament (along with Korchnoi and Petrosian), Fischer won with 15 W, 1 L, 7 D giving 18.5 points. The next 5 were 3 tied at 15 and 2 tied at 14. You can change every one of Fischer's draws to a loss in that tournament and he'd still have tied for first. Then in the Candidates, he played Taimanov, Larsen, and Petrosian. He beat Taimanov with 6 W, 0 L, 0 D. (Taimanov, a Russian) got into considerable trouble over this. The Russian government did not believe it was possible for a player of his level to be so thoroughly beaten unless it was on purpose. They stopped paying him and banned him from foreign travel). Then he beat Larsen with 6 W, 0 L, 0 D. Then he beat Petrosian with 5 W, 1 L, 3 D.
- Someone 5y ago> You can change every one of Fischer's draws to a loss in that tournament and he'd still have tied for first. Nitpick: that’s incorrect. Reading https://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/7072$iix.htm https://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/7072$iix.htm, he drew with Hübner, so if you change that to a loss, Hübner would get half a point more, moving to 15½.
- cyberferret 5y agoRe: Your point (1), I read somewhere that the match took longer than watching the entire "Queen's Gambit" NetFlix series start to finish. (To put it in perspective for readers who may not realise how much time is spent at the board during these sorts of games).
- v64 5y agoThanks for pointing this out! Game 6 started at 4:30pm local time and ended at 12:17am, making the game length 7 hours and 47 minutes total. It was the first time since adjournments were abolished in the 90s that a championship game started on one day and ended on another.
- joegreen 5y agoIs there a time limit for each player?
- magicalhippo 5y agoIt varies a bit, but in this case[1] they had two hours each to reach 40 moves, without additional time per move. After move 40 then they got an additional hour each until move 60. After move 60 they got 15 minutes each, as well as each move now giving them 30 seconds. If the player runs out of time they lose. [1]: https://www.chess.com/article/view/world-chess-championship-2021#regulations https://www.chess.com/article/view/world-chess-championship-...
- herodoturtle 5y ago> may not realise how much time is spent at the board Or not spent at the board - Nepo seemed to prefer the side room ;-)
- dmurray 5y agoThe 6th game alone took longer than The Queen's Gambit. (This is probably what you meant, but in chess a game means a single contest, while a match always means a series of games between two players or two teams).
- AmericanChopper 5y agoIt could be the worst challenger performance in the history of the game. Nepo’s performance in the very long game 6 was actually quite good, even though he lost it. Neither of them played accurately in the in the time scramble to move 40, but Nepo didn’t lose to a massive blunder or anything. However after that he was clearly tilted off the face of the earth. He was playing much too quickly and made blunders than even a competent amateur could have spotted. In game 11 I’m sure he simply gave up after seeing a draw was inevitable, because he didn’t want to show up for game 12. The most remarkable aspect of this match for me was the absolute mental meltdown of the challenger. Nepo’s a great player, and I hope he comes back from this. But those last 5 games were the worst games he’s played in his career.
- disillusioned 5y agoAs a not-even-really-observer casual observer, game 6 must have just broke him. Even in those rare moments where he had played to an advantage, he unforced-error-blundered it away mere moments later. There were at least two instances where Magnus was so stunned at the nature and plainness of the blunder that he had to collect himself in a "am I walking into a trap, you couldn't have just made that mistake" sort of way. Opening himself to that pawn fork... these weren't carefully laid traps he was falling into. This was shooting himself in the foot and face with Magnus out of the room. Absolutely stunning meltdown. I feel sorry for him, but mental endurance is obviously no small part of the calculus to being world champion and Nepo showed he simply doesn't have it.
- AmericanChopper 5y agoGood mental is one of the core skills, and I think the silver lining for Nepo in this is that it’s very clear what he needs to improve. Hopefully he’ll be able to pick himself up and become a stronger competitor from it. Incidentally the mental test of this best of 14 format isn’t even as hard as it can get. They used to play to a certain number of wins. The 1984 championship was abandoned in February 1985 (it started in September 1984) after 48 games (40 draws). They also had longer time controls back then, and would adjourn games overnight if necessary, so when you woke up to play a game you wouldn’t even know if you’d be able to go to sleep that night having finished it.
- spindle 5y agoGo / baduk / weiqi is also amazing from the point of view of how much stamina the players have to have. See, for example, https://senseis.xmp.net/?LongestTimeSpentThinkingAboutAMove https://senseis.xmp.net/?LongestTimeSpentThinkingAboutAMove
- innocenat 5y agoI was looking at Go vs Shogi time control and was surprised that at top level Shogi match usually give more time to players, despite being mathematically less complex. AFAIK the longest allotted time in Go is Japanese Mejin match at 8 hour/player. Longest for Shogi is Shogi Mejiin Match at 9 hour/player. Even standard ranking match in Japanese Shogi allow 6 hour/player, more than any Chess tournament I have seen (at present). I watched a lot of Shogi match, and that just make 3.15 hours allotted in WCC looks low. (The 8-9 hour match is a 2-day match. At specified time on the first day player do sealed move, to be reveal at the beginning of a match the next day.)
- alisonkisk 5y ago> Even standard ranking match in Japanese Shogi allow 6 hour/player, Is that in one day?
- Gene_Parmesan 5y ago> Carlsen's defense against Caruana in 2018 featured 12 draws before moving into tiebreakers I really hope they are able to figure out some not-too-unnatural way to reduce the likelihood of draws. One easy possibility I saw suggested a number of times would be to remove the increment. Give additional time at certain move thresholds like they do now, but then at some point, that's it. No more time. Time pressure should remain a legitimate possibility of a threat throughout the match. When two GMs are in the endgame, +30s each move is an eternity, and how many tiny moves did we see them make just to get another +30s? Oh well. I know excitement isn't the main driving force, I just think it's a real shame to see a world championship matchup like Carlsen/Caruana go to 12 straight draws and be decided by tiebreakers.
- innocenat 5y agoStrongly disagree. The main series of WCC should have players playing at the highest level, so there should not be too much time pressure. If it's all draw, that means players are equal at that level, so the tie-breaker match has more time pressure.
- notinty 5y agoRapid chess is almost a different game, shown by how handily Carlsen beat Caruana in the tie breakers.
- mrslave 5y agoPerhaps white can move twice before black is allowed to make his first move? Edit: Embarrassingly I had a good laugh at my own joke after writing this.
- austhrow743 5y agoThere’s plenty of chess tournaments with much shorter speeds. Some people only play rapid chess variants. I don’t see why removing slower chess tournaments on top of that is necessary.
- NohatCoder 5y ago3) That depends on what games you count and how you define lopsided. I'd say a reasonable quantification of lopsidedness is [winning score]/[games played]. By that metric Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi is fairly lopsided at 68.2%, Capablanca-Lasker is only 64.3%. The disputed era FIDE world championship final in 2000 had Anand beating Shirov with 3.5 of 4, a whooping 87.5%. But you might no count that as it was not a traditional long 1v1 match. So if we discount that we have to go all the way back to 1910 Lasker-Janowski, 9.5 of 11, 86.4% to find a more lopsided match. The only other 1v1 world championship matches that have been more lopsided are: 1896-1897 Lasker-Steinitz 12.5 of 17, 73.5%. 1907 Lasker-Marshall 11.5 of 15, 76,7%.
- CalChris 5y agoGame 6 was pretty tight and pretty good. You have to realize they were playing the last moves after midnight and they were playing them on increment, 30 seconds a move, basically rapid. Nepo's 'blunder' is an extremely natural looking move, 130. .. Qe6 and it only loses in 49 moves. But as was predicted before the match, if Nepo lost one it'd be an avalanche. Nepo only squeezed in because the Candidates tournament was so weird with Covid and all. Caruana again, Ding Liren or Firouzja would have been much stronger opponents. I think the 18 year old Iranian phenom and world #2 Alireza Firouzja is the champion in waiting. But Magnus is still king and even Magnus would take another 10 years of dominance to claim GOAT from Kasparov.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago> Nepo only squeezed in because .. He "squeezed in" because he won the pretenders tournament, beating all other challengers who played on exact same schedule as him. He also played incredibly well until that loss in Game 6 demoralised him, unfortunately.
- rectang 5y agoGame 6 was thrilling for someone like me who plays only blitz. I could never calculate all those rook moves without blundering, so the game looks more wild to me than it probably was haha. It sure was hard fought! The games after that were a let-down, but that's because Carlssen is just so damn consistent.
- AmericanChopper 5y ago> But Magnus is still king and even Magnus would take another 10 years of dominance to claim GOAT from Kasparov. Some big opinions here. Magnus has 5 undisputed titles. Only Lasker is ahead of him on 6, and Botvinnik ties him on 5. Vishy also ties him on 5, but one of those was from when the title split in the 90s. Karpov and Kasparov each have 6 titles, but two of Kasparov’s and 3 of Karpov’s come from when the title was split (and they were each playing on different sides of it). One more title make a good case for GOAT Magnus, two more seals it.
- CalChris 5y ago
- buzzdenver 5y agoFelt like a boxing match where Carlsen knocked Nepo down in the 6th game, and after that he just wasn't the same boxer/chess player. The next 3 decisive games had blunders by Nepo that would be bad for even the #1000 chess player.
- colmvp 5y agoOne enthusiast on Reddit predicted Nepo would crumble after the first loss and Carlsen would win 4 games to 0. What was really frustrating was Nepo had plenty of time left on the clock during those blunders, almost like he was resigned to the fact that he wouldn't beat Carlsen. It also really puts into perspective how impressive Caruana was in 2018.
- manquer 5y agoPlaying for draws is easier than playing for wins. At the world top level it is easier to try and draw games, so it doesn't that say that much really, Caruana's draws were not that remarkable or memorable as well. He is a skilled player no doubt, and impressiven in his own right, but his 2018 performance is not a good way to gauge that .
- lofatdairy 5y agoI think this comment underrates not only Caruana's strength but also Carlsen's ability to navigate the incredibly difficult positions Caruana placed him in. Sure, no game from 2018 can compare against game 6 from this year, but game 6 was a historic game, but it arose from a subtle position that just as easily could have been played in 2018. I think game 8 most easily demonstrates how Caruana fought incredibly hard to win, with at least 19 moves of preparation in a rare line of svenishnikov and making a pawn sacrifice for long term chances. Just because a game is even until the end doesn't mean that they're easy, at the top level it means that its balanced on a knifes edge the whole way through. Furthermore, I think this comment simply cannot be true for the simple reason that in no world does it makes sense for Fabiano to play for a draw. While you're right that's obviously "easier" to play for a draw than for a win, playing to draw for Caruana would actually be playing to lose, not only because it's a weak mindset but also because Magnus is the undisputedly stronger player in lower time formats.
- matsemann 5y agoIt's cool how big chess has become in Norway. Since Carlsen's first WC match, there's been live coverage on TV, streams from big online newspaper etc. And internationally it has also looked good the last few times. This year there were lots og different online streams of different styles, many gaining a huge view count. And somehow, watching the rapid WC at the end of December has become sorta a Christmas tradition for many in Norway. It's a kind of slow TV that works really well.
- noir_lord 5y agoRapid is my favourite event type to watch, slow enough to think about the moves, not long enough to let the commentators waffle.
- socialdemocrat 5y agoYeah, I remember how people at work all began building their own chess engines. It was nuts. I wonder how much this interest will affect Norwegian ability to bring up new chess talent or if Magnus will remain some kind of Norwegian chess anomaly.
- pkulak 5y agoIs it just me, or is Chess becoming a thing lately? I've recently started to really enjoy watching it (kinda hate playing it, haha), so maybe it's just because I'm paying attention?
- devoutsalsa 5y agoThe Queen’s Gambit on Netflix certainly increased chess awareness in popular culture.
- kkcorps 5y agoYes, chess boomed during covid. You can see the twitch stats. Big ss Streamers get views almost in vicinity of Call of Duty: Warzone and Apex Legends.
- switz 5y agoChess is in many ways, the perfect esport. I'm sure I'll take some flack for calling it an esport due to its rich history and the fact that it was not originally a "video game", but in 2021 those lines are blurred. In my opinion, it checks all the boxes.
- manquer 5y agoPerfect ? It is the one of easiest online games to cheat! Very hard to play professionally online when it so easy to cheat . Online chess( pandemic apart) would never be considered equivalent to tournaments over a board
- usehackernews 5y agoIts easy to cheat, but also easy to get caught. You can’t cheat yourself to a high score. The same engines that people cheat with are the same engines used to detect cheating. If you’re using an engine to play your moves, you’ll be caught very quickly.
- tromp 5y ago
- zarzavat 5y agoEven if the quality of play in this match has been not great, one thing I really enjoyed was the extremely high class of commentary. Caruana, Giri, Anand, Svidler and Nakamura have been doing commentary (simultaneously!) throughout the match. It has been a real treat, I don't believe any match before has had such a deep level of live analysis. I have had five different streams open at times just to listen to them all :)
- AmericanChopper 5y agoI didn’t think the commentary was that good this year, too many awkward personalities. Anish was constantly talking over Judit. I tuned into to Vishy’s stream for a bit, but the person he had with him was incredibly awkward. I find Danny Rensch to be completely insufferable, which is a shame because Caruana is so good. Howell and Houska are pretty good, but they had some terrible guests on that stream, and all of the beard guys segments were incredibly cringe. Jan and Svidler from the Karjaken match was the best commentary team we’ve had for a championship imo. I remember the main Chennai team being pretty decent as well, Tania’s a very good commentator, so I don’t know why they had her running around the event center interviewing people.
- noxvilleza 5y agoAgree with all your first paragraph points. Although he's only an IM, I really like Eric Rosen - he's a pretty reasonable personality and is able to crack jokes and keep the conversation moving nicely. Unfortunately he was part of the broadcast with Danny Rensch. Giri just seemed downright rude to Judit. He ignored what she was saying in many instances, argued with her when he was listening, and failed to credit her when he predicted or calculated something incorrectly. I'm also not a huge Maurice Ashley fan - but think he did a good job handling the press conferences. What was interesting was that for Karjakin/Carlsen, Jan Gustafsson was doing commentary, but also was part of the Carlsen analytics/prep/second team. Svidler's analysis is always enjoyable, but sometimes he seems bored with games and his language almost becomes 'this is over let's move on'.
- 5y ago
- smnplk 5y agoHa! I didn't know that Dubov was in in MC team :D What a legend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_kW-HMNYRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_kW-HMNYRA
- thom 5y agoWas he? Svidler implied that given he was close to both Magnus and Ian, they'd all decided not to put him in a difficult position and ask him to take sides. But Magnus did say it was the same team I guess. Either way, feels like we saw a couple of his lines come up. His influence on the game is fascinating.
- smnplk 5y agoYes, he was. And there is a scandal brewing in Russian chess community over this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NP795z3NQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NP795z3NQA
- kzrdude 5y agoSvidler was speculating and now the Magnus team revealed the team in reality yesterday, incl Dubov
- smnplk 5y agoYea, i think Dubov is the reason Magnus played more conservatively.
- thisisonthetest 5y agowish there was a spoiler tag, bummer. Well, i was only like 20+ hours away from catching up
- bottled_poe 5y agoProbably don’t read a nerd news site if you don’t want to see nerd news?
- AmericanChopper 5y agoNH having sports spoilers on the front page barely ever happens. Chess stories are also very uncommon here. It’s reasonable not to expect it. But the real lesson is that spoilers can be anywhere. I used to listen to a radio station on the way to work every day, and I’ve heard them talk about Formula 1 exactly 1 time, when they decided the 7am commute show was a good time to spoil the race that happened at 4am. I have no idea why this mostly hip hop oriented radio station decided to talk about F1 that single time, but the lesson I learnt was just to wake up early and watch the sport if I don’t want to have it spoiled.
- smnplk 5y agoI feel sorry for Ian. That c5 move totally destroyed him. Some people don't understand how elementary mistake that was. And to make it in slow chess... I hope he recovers from that and goes on to win some tournaments. But as for the next candidates match, I think Alireza or Giri have the best chance to win it.
- tephra 5y agoI don't think Giri has actually qualified yet.
- v64 5y agoCorrect, the next Candidates tournament has only 2 spots left, and those are going to the top 2 winners of the 2022 FIDE Grand Prix.
- kzrdude 5y agoDing Liren was extremely strong pre covid, now I'm not sure, but he could be a stronger challenger than for example Girl.
- noir_lord 5y agoI'm a patzer, I hover around 1600-1700 elo and I'd seen c5 and ruled it out as losing becuase it traps the bishop, when he played it was I like "oh, I guess it doesn't and I missed something". That was an unusual feeling because normally I can only get a hint of what they are doing by loading the PGN into an engine interface and playing through the game trying out variations against the engine.
- herodoturtle 5y agoGame 6: Incredible chess. c5: Not so much :-( The pressure of a Word Championship match is not to be underestimated.
- thom 5y agoDoesn't really feel like this whole World Championship cycle hit great heights. Ding disappointed in the Candidates, Ian collapsed in the match. But that's life. I hope we get good results in the 2022 Grands Prix, especially now there's no qualification by rating.
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- unixhero 5y agoIt is so typical of Norwegians to be good.
- socialdemocrat 5y agoHahaha, I don’t think many people outside of Norway knows that quote. Also doesn’t sound right in English. “Typisk Norsk…” is such a stock phrase.