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The article mentions that Tyler makes $300k per year in merchandise alone (so excluding any actual sponsored content). Frankly I don't get why this can't be see

• kzrdude 5y ago
  Not a real job is a quite good stance to take. Because there is an absurd power law at play here, the absolute top make a lot of money. In a "real job" you are paid a living wage, on twitch you are paid scraps if you don't make it to the top.
  • belval 5y ago
    I am not saying this is a real job prospect. If a kid told me he wanted to be a Twitch streamer I'd say he can't be one, same as professional singer or musician in general. What I am saying that what Tyler has very much is a real job and successful business. You wouldn't say Taylor Swift is jobless because very few people make it in the pop music world.
    • obstacle1 5y ago
      >If a kid told me he wanted to be a Twitch streamer I'd say he can't be one You'd be lying though, and your kid would probably grow up to resent it. There are ways to educate kids about the relative risks of careers in good faith.
      • danny_codes 5y ago
        I believe OP was being hyperbolic.
      • belval 5y ago
        It was a volunteer oversimplification to explain my reasoning, not parenting advice.
    • jay_kyburz 5y ago
      If my kid told me they wanted to be a twitch streamer I would advise them against investing a significant amount of time and effort building a business with a single gatekeeper. If they wanted to be a famous personality, I would insist they start building a profile on every platform.
      • prawn 5y ago
        I'd advise them to dominate a new platform as an early adopter and then spread out from there. Or put out content very consistently on 2-3 platforms. But even spreading yourself between two accounts let alone multiple platforms is time consuming.
      • Karunamon 5y ago
        This isn't well known, but to monetize on Twitch (i.e. be able to receive subscriptions and bits), you have to sign an affiliate agreement[1], which includes a clause prohibiting you from multi-streaming, or putting your VODs up anywhere else for a full day after their conclusion. This severely limits your ability to cross platforms. [1]: https://www.twitch.tv/p/en/legal/affiliate-agreement/ https://www.twitch.tv/p/en/legal/affiliate-agreement/
        • jay_kyburz 5y ago
          Which kind of demonstrates exactly my point. I would never build a business that needs somebodies permission to exist.
          • vasco 5y ago
            Every single business needs permission to exist, not only because you need approval from the government to open one.
            • gassiss 5y ago
              You can't be comparing Twitch to the government. Those are not even remotely the same thing
  • notJim 5y ago
    What definition of "real job" are you using? By that definition, any kind of performer (music, sports, etc) is not a "real job". Hell, starting most businesses including startups would not be a "real job," since most fail. I guess you can definite it this way if you want, but I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate.
  • slightwinder 5y ago
    To give some numbers: There are more than 10 millions Streamers on Twitch, of which 5 millions are streaming regularly. The top 10_000 of them earns barely minimum wage or more. The Top 1000-5000 is earning some decent money on middle-class-level and the millionairs-club is around Top 100. And these numbers are globally, meaning all streamers from all countries. So we are still talking about an absurd low number of people.
    • tinus_hn 5y ago
      A service that makes 100 users a millionaire is a low number? And by the way, there is no way to know how much people are really making because they not only get money through Twitch but also through tip systems, merchandise, promotion, sponsors and other revenue generating activities.
      • slightwinder 5y ago
        Yes, but the twitch-numbers reflect a streamers potential for earning money through merchandise, promotion, sponsors and other revenue generating activities. There usually is a direct enough link between them. Tipping is a bit more special, but it's quite unlikely that a small 20 viewer-streamer will get a million-dollar-tip regularly. So you can make an educated guess of the general income, at least regarding someone's success as a streamer. Of course it's always possible that someone is far more successful outside of twitch. Like an established celeb who streams without monetization. But I don't think it makes sense to discuss those special cases here.
        • tinus_hn 5y ago
          Yes, the viewer numbers are the direct link. But viewer numbers are not Twitch revenue. Subscriber are Twitch revenue. And it is not at all impossible to have a lot of viewers and not a lot of subscribers. How are you going to know what the stream is earning the musician keeping contact with his fan base?
    • mbesto 5y ago
      Now do this for football players. Over the age of 6: 5.16 million High school: 1 million College: 70k Pro: 1,700 Also a power law distribution.
  • vkou 5y ago
    Twitch does follow a power law, but from the leaks, I was surprised as to how many people are making high-five figures/year from it. But no, it's not a 'career' I'd recommend to anyone. The net expected value of becoming a local theatre actor is significantly better than Twitch...
  • api 5y ago
    Hasn't it always been this way in music, art, writing, and media? Making a living doing any kind of art or media has always been brutal. How many rock bands made a decent living, let alone serious money?
  • amerkhalid 5y ago
    I think making it to top on Twitch/TikTok/SocialMedia is hard, just like it is hard to be a famous Hollywood star. But there are a lot of minor social media celebrities that make a middle class income or they do it as their second job but no one talks about them just like how no one talks about minor actors. I know this because recently I ran into a few Instagram influencers with a low 6-figure followers, who get paid $1000+ per ad post. The ones I know have day jobs, Instagram is mostly extra income for them. I also know a blogger who is doing it fulltime and making upper middle class income from it. The point is power law seems absurd because it is easy to start these things but very few people actually treat it like a job or a business. To me it seems those who treat it like a business have pretty high chance of making, at least, living wages from it.
• varelse 5y ago
  I knew G to PG-13 rated camgirls that were making six figures back in 1997 to 2000. They eventually got disrupted by the adult industry providing more explicit content for much less money upfront. OnlyFans seems to have reinvented this model at scale, but what's the average margin for an OnlyFans provider? $180/month. https://influencermarketinghub.com/glossary/onlyfans/ https://influencermarketinghub.com/glossary/onlyfans/
  • skinnymuch 5y ago
    I’m familiar with two women doing financial domination stuff. One of them is fully PG-13. It’s interesting there are still certain niches where you don’t have to go past R rates stuff and can bring in mid 5 figures or higher.
    • varelse 5y ago
      The sad part is that's only bringing in mid-5 figures which makes me think that findom is an efficient market and I await the Harvard Business Review case study of it with baited breath.
      • skinnymuch 5y ago
        I was specifically speaking to PG-13-ish ones. Once you go nude and other elements go farther, the money presumably goes up a lot. Hard to get accurate numbers for a lot of online hustle industries. There’s a lot of grandstanding, exaggerating, or laying really low about finances. Like say affiliate marketers or SEO people. > I await the Harvard Business Review case study of it with baited breath. Haha!
• rhizome 5y ago
  >Frankly I don't get why this can't be seen as a legitimate very successful business. This is going to sound glib, but I honestly think it's because Pinterest hasn't been able to create a comparable (or even marginally similar) business model for its users to capitalize on. Seriously, why isn't Pinterest a big shopping destination? The answer to that will tell us a lot about attitudes toward influencers and e-stars.
  • BoorishBears 5y ago
    Because to do that it'd become YouTube? No one cares about a shopping list of pictures, people want engagement with a Real Human™ if they're going to spend their cash on a recommendation So Pinterest would have to pivot to a niche video site, which is not exactly an easy thing to sustain
    • rhizome 5y ago
      OK, so what's involved for a YouTube maker to allow their viewers to single-click something that takes them to a payment page for an item in the video? Is that even a thing that is possible? Didn't YouTube remove the ability for videomakers to add clickable hotspots to their videos?
• mathteddybear 5y ago
  There was a leak of Twitch data recently, so we know that top twitch-ers earn megabucks. The real business is, of course, Twitch itself.
  • bloodyplonker22 5y ago
    I don't think we needed a leak to learn that top Twitch earners make millions per year...
  • notreallyserio 5y ago
    IIRC you had to crack the top 2000 to hit $50k in a year, although I don't think the data showed streaming hours per year so it's hard to know how many earned something close to a living wage.
    • slightwinder 5y ago
      Should be noted the leak only contained money earned directly through twitch. But most income from bigger streamers is coming by other means and external services. Though, there is some correlation, so the twitch-only numbers can be still be used to make an educated guess. After all, if you are not making significant money via twitch, it also means your community is usually too small to bring you money through placements or other money flows.
• esotericimpl 5y ago
  I see no difference in this kind of job as an NFL or any other sports player. Sure they might not be able to keep doing this into their 40s but who cares have to strike while the iron is hot. If they grow out or decide streaming video games or whatever isnt for them, thats no different than a baseball player retiring. Maybe they move into the front office and advise other up and coming streamers and entertainers what they can do. Who knows what the market will look like for this kind of entertainment in the future.
• paulpauper 5y ago
  Once you have a few millions secured, it is hard to blow it if you invest and save prudently. It's not like when he turns 30 he will be back to poverty. There is too much negativity and doom and gloom. These gamers, e-celebs are making a lot of money and will not be destitute when their star fades. Today's internet celebs are much better at saving and investing their money compared to celebs of decades ago, who blew their money on extravagant expenses and saved nothing.
  • slightwinder 5y ago
    Actually it's very easy to blow some millions. Sportspeople, lotto-winners and such are doing it all the time. Handling money wisely is a skill you need to learn and master. That guy is in esports, so he is generally very risk-friendly, so chances are high that he is also investing and wasting his money on risky investments and potentially losing it.
    • AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      > Handling money wisely is a skill you need to learn and master. At that scale of wealth you don't just have to not handle money wisely, you have to be downright foolish to make it all disappear.
    • paulpauper 5y ago
      I think these twitter gamers and celebs are smarter than mainstream athletes lotto winners in terms of higher IQ , and thus are better at personal finance and budgeting
      • syntheweave 5y ago
        Competitive gamers - or at least the kind that get big Twitch viewership - aren't too far removed from athletes. They're used to the game giving reliable feedback and to getting as many tries as they need to perfect their skills, even if there are moments of high pressure to test them. They're rewarded by chasing a big audience and hustling to put up equally big and obvious leaderboard scores. Gamers have "tight grips" on their domain and optimize themselves heavily towards crushing the game. It's not just an IQ thing, but a personality type. Finance tends to be the opposite - limited information, long time horizons, optimal risk/rewards by going into poorly understood niches, and permanent failure making loose attachment and adaptability preferable to optimizing. While you can make the competitive gaming mindset work, it's an "attack dog" way of running your life. And you can see a contrast between session based online gaming - which is what gets most of the Twitch viewers as alluded earlier - and MMOs, in the types of playstyle that "make it" competitively. While MMOs often reward persistent grinds, they can also reward creative ways of redefining the game's goals and mechanics to develop the game in a pro-social direction. You want to be in an MMO with other people who know how to make the game lively, not 1000 angry sweatlords chasing after the same leaderboard stat. So there are typically more ways to measure oneself, and more opportunities to do things like item trading arbitrage, which is directly financial in nature.
• esyir 5y ago
  >A lot of the comments point out that most people on Twitch/YouTube/OnlyFans don't make money and would be better off getting a "real job". To support your point, acting, singing and writing are in a similar state, as are most media works. Creative media seems in particular its the area where the gulf between the successful and the well, not, is massive.
  • wpietri 5y ago
    This is true, but I have to wonder whether those things are as grueling as streaming is. I did some user interviews with streamers for a project. None were this successful; the people talked to ranged from making a decent living to having a day job and then doing streaming as a full-time second job. Even the ones like Tyler were feeling the same strain he is. But the ones who seemed worst off were the ones who were putting in the same level of effort but making peanuts or were net negative on a cash basis. I remember one guy I talked to who said that he never talked to his old friends; everybody he spent time with now was a streamer because he didn't have time for anything else. In contrast the actors I used to know seemed to have a much healthier relationship to their art. They were working hard and trying to make it, but I don't recall the same sense of ruthless grind I got from the streamers. Ditto the writers I know these days.
    • corobo 5y ago
      I don't think it's a case of gruelling, it's more that streaming is the social outcast version of acting. You have to interact with people to act else it doesn't work. Streaming can be entirely solo, even at the top end Nobody is forcing you to be live 12 hours a day. Most of the super effort no reward streamers would benefit by cutting the live hours and working more on marketing anyway. Twitch in particular is terrible for organic growth Not to imply any negativity in this comment if it reads that way, just shite at words. I've dabbled in streaming and realised I need to build up the audience first otherwise it's a massive timesink
      • snek_case 5y ago
        > Twitch in particular is terrible for organic growth Might be in part because the search function is so bad. I tried to use twitch to discover DJ slash electronic music streams, and had a really hard time finding what I wanted, though I could sometimes find them using other keywords.