9 ms·

Lead contamination in hunted meat

47 points by tomohawk 5y ago

gnabgib 5y ago
I think the link should be: https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170.html https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170.html (submitted link has accidentally captured some sort of custom fragment-deep-link-in-the-url implementation)
- dang 5y ago
  Ok, we've changed to that from https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170/a-lack-of-lead-inspection-in-donated-venison https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170/a-lac.... Thanks!
avalys 5y ago
Lead contamination is a bit of a crusade of mine. I'm always frustrated when the topic comes up. People will object to any proposed improvement by saying "I've been doing <XYZ> for 40 years and it hasn't killed me yet!" Yeah, it hasn't killed you, but how do you know you're not 10 IQ points dumber than you could have been?
- dhosek 5y ago
  It astonishes me that it’s 2021 and they're still selling toys with lead paint and garden hose fixtures with lead in them.
  - andrewxdiamond 5y ago
    Where? That’s not really a problem in the US as far as I’m aware
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      Surely you don't think each and every product from all those IKEA-named Chinese resellers on Amazon has been closely vetted for lead and other banned components? https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-poisoning-2019-8 https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-poiso... > A breaking investigation from the Wall Street Journal revealed that online retail giant Amazon has been selling thousands of products that have failed federal safety tests, including children's toys containing four to 411 times the safe limit of lead.
      - voisin 5y ago
        Is there an at home test to determine if anything you have contains lead?
        andrewxdiamond 5y ago
        Yes, there are a lot. Don’t buy the overpriced “home” versions. 3M LeadCheck Swabs, Instant Lead Test, 8-Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BK15PU/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BK15PU/
    - tristor 5y ago
      > Where? That’s not really a problem in the US as far as I’m aware In the US. A lot of goods that originate from overseas made with metal contain lead in their alloys, and lead paint is often used for white paints in particular. A LOT of goods enter the US market from overseas imports containing lead, and there's no real establish process for testing and validating safety or functionality of these products prior to sale.
    - louky 5y ago
      Garden hoses are lead contaminated, at least the ones I avoided all said 'this product contains lead'. I'm in the US. Quick link - https://turfmechanic.com/garden-hoses-lead/ https://turfmechanic.com/garden-hoses-lead/
      - orangepurple 5y ago
        RV specific hoses are much more expensive and they don't contain lead. It's madness.
    - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
      I wish. Serious lead reduction efforts only started ca. 50 years ago, regulations were phased in irregularly across a huge variety of industries, applications, and jurisdictions over a long period of time (causing many lead-containing products to simply shift from one supply chain to another), and much of it is effectively on the honor system. https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/consumer-products.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/consumer-pr... https://uspirg.org/news/usp/recall-toys-still-found-lead-paint-decade-after-virtual-ban https://uspirg.org/news/usp/recall-toys-still-found-lead-pai...
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      It's not really a problem for things made in the US. It's a huge problem for things made in China and then imported into the US.
- robobob5000 5y ago
  what is the proposed improvement in this case though? There is something weird about this article. It feels like a paid for hit piece from the anti-gun crowd rather than an organic article about lead issues.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    As the article mentions, the simple solution is to use non-lead ammo; which is available but more expensive than lead. Also suggestions ".. include selecting shotguns instead of high-powered rifles, and avoiding acidic cooking ingredients, since acids can dissolve even more of the lead into the food. Additional advice for hunters who use lead ammunition is to avoid shooting the deer in regions of the body with heavy bones, such as shoulders and hips, where the resulting impact scatters more lead into the meat."
  - pineconewarrior 5y ago
    Steel shot. Seems pretty straightforward as a solution. The performance is not quite as good and it's more expensive, I assume.
    - thrower123 5y ago
      Steel shot is terrible. I don't know exactly why, but I have seen geese have the feathers blown off of them, you can see them shiver in the sky as they get pelted, and the will wobble and shrug it off. Usually to get just far enough away that they die in a place where they are irretrievable. Lead would stagger them enough that they'd go right down. The newer bismuth and tungsten rounds are almost as good, but at something like $5/round, it's absurd.
      - pineconewarrior 5y ago
        Yes indeed. You have to reduce distance quite a bit to get the same stopping power, due to the difference in sectional density. Furthermore, lead ammunition deforms as it penetrates - steel does not - which leads to less internal damage and a higher rate of target survival.
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  Ugh, as a kid I grew up fishing shot out of cooked rabbit and pheasant and stacking it up on the side of my plate; or accidentally spitting it out because if you weren't careful you'd crack a tooth. My grandfather goes instantly from 0 to 60 with rage if anyone tries to tell him anything about his hunting (we had hide his ammo when he started getting befuddled). He'll never change. Hopefully younger hunters are aware of just because we did XYZ and it was bad for you means you don't have to do it anymore.
  - Kluny 5y ago
    > My grandfather goes instantly from 0 to 60 with rage Classic symptom of lead poisoning, ironically.
    - LeifCarrotson 5y ago
      Had a guy blow up when I indicated I would prefer Teflon tape for sealing pipe threads over his favorite Master's metallic pipe dope. Here's the MSDS: https://www.era-env.com/ERAWcfService/getmsdscontent.svc/?key=JBKg6NDl9o2QBL%2formyuOg%3d%3d&value=kFwJll4enGQ%3d https://www.era-env.com/ERAWcfService/getmsdscontent.svc/?ke... It's basically powdered lead in an alcohol carrier that you wipe on your threads with a brush. At first I thought he was just a grumpy old plumber tired of liberal environmentalist kids with their newfangled safety regulations, but perhaps the lifetime of working with leaded solders and leaded thread sealant has affected him in some way...
- literallyaduck 5y ago
  This is the insidious thing about lead, those consumers who have been exposed now may be unequipped to rationally evaluate the problem, the risk, the severity and alternatives because of their diminished mental state. Victims of lead based mental illness have the same vote weight that you do.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Your post is a textbook example of a Kafka trap.
- mitchbob 5y ago
  Are there alternatives to lead for bullets and shotgun shells? If so, it would great to mandate them and keep all that lead out of the environment. We got rid of lead in most fuels; ammunition could be next.
  - tristor 5y ago
    Yes, there are alternatives, primarily steel, but it's quite a bit more expensive. For my purposes, I only ever hunt with steel pellet shells, I would never use lead.
    - kache_ 5y ago
      Hunting is so expensive anyways. What's a few more bucks? Pun not intended
      - tristor 5y ago
        Most families that hunt for meat, including mine, are not wealthy. We are not talking about sport hunters, we are talking about subsistence hunting. It's still very common in large swathes of America. Just looking around for the lowest prices possible, the cost of steel shot is more than double the cost of lead shot for #3 shells (commonly used for waterfowl). For #00 shells (used for deer and medium game) it's more than three times as expensive. Ammo costs add up quick, as you need to practice with the same shells you hunt with. Working in tech, I can afford to buy higher quality and more expensive things, and the ammunition I use is no exception. But for many people it's not really within their budget. Lead is cheap, it's one of the main reason its used to make projectiles in the first place.
        stefan_ 5y ago
        Geez, wait until they see the bill for cleaning up all the lead in the environment from their shooting.
        thghtihadanacct 5y ago
- sneak 5y ago
  The classically false "that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger."
- hackernews666 5y ago
  It doesn't help that there is limited study about casual contact with lead. Most sportsman understand the risks of commercial levels of lead exposure but the occasional contact with the human body or environment is not easily quantifiable or understood.
killingtime74 5y ago
Apparently lead free ammunition is available. I don’t know why you’d be so lazy not to buy it if you’re actually going to eat the meat
- chroem- 5y ago
  It's not so straightforward. While there are solid copper projectiles available in some jurisdictions, most lead-free projectiles have been decried by gun control activists as "cop killer bullets". Lead is extremely soft, and thus uniquely bad at penetrating body armor. Projectile composition is heavily regulated in the US, ironically in favor of the continued use of lead projectiles.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    I mean, there are solid-copper hollow-tip bullets on the shelf at the Bass Pro Shop and I live in California. This persecution story seems like a 2A fundamentalist fantasy.
    - tristor 5y ago
      Solid copper doesn't behave the same way ballistically to lead, as it is significantly less dense. You don't seem to actually understand how firearms work and your perspective is based entirely on what happens in California, a notoriously unfriendly state to anyone who doesn't actively hate guns.
      - jeffbee 5y ago
        Copper bullets did not prevent California hunters from taking tens of thousands of deer, elk, and pigs last year. I honestly don't know what you are whining about. There is a copper rifle round out there for every type of game you can hunt in America.
    - hackernews666 5y ago
      In NJ for example it is a felony to posses to hollow points (NJSA 2C:39-3(f)) so you will likely face an additional felony if you are ever charged on another gun crime. The projectile of a piece of ammunition is also used by the feds as an excuse to ban importation if they deem it not suitable for sporting purposes.
hkon 5y ago
Interesting. Is any part of an animal safe to eat when harvested with lead projectiles? Is it just the area of impact and near, or does it spread throughout very quickly?
- tristor 5y ago
  Generally speaking, it mostly only affects the meat where lead projectiles hit. The most common lead projectiles for hunting though are shotgun pellets in shells, which have a sizeable spread and often used for small targets like waterfowl and rodents. So a small target and a sizeable spread of pellets means that while only hit and splatter areas are affected, that could be most of the usable meat as well.
- sneak 5y ago
  From TFA: > Upon impact, a lead bullet can fragment into tiny microparticles, too small to see with the naked eye or sense when eating. A deer processor in Pennsylvania who requested anonymity shared his first-hand experience. "Seventy-five percent of the time when I find a bullet in the carcass, I only find the base. I know the lead is all in the meat somewhere," he told EHN. > Scientists have used X-rays to visualize and count sometimes hundreds of minute lead particles in hunted meat, and have detected high concentrations of lead in hunted carcasses using chemical analysis. Although the U.S. Food and Drug Administration does not recognize a safe limit for the amount of lead in meat, the European Commission set maximum levels at 0.1 parts per million (ppm). > Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as six inches from the entry wound.
  - kokanator 5y ago
    >Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as six inches from the entry wound. In which direction? Was there any indication of damage? Did they only measure from the round bullet entry? The statement provides no additional details. The entry wound is often small, about the size of the projectile. While the damage after entry is greater and often identifiable. It is important to follow the projectiles through the game.
pengaru 5y ago
Sounds like another vote for using a bow and arrow...
- opwieurposiu 5y ago
  Bow is nice because it does not make noise when you practice and you don't have to worry about the kids getting into it since there is no way they can pull it back. On the other hand it takes a lot more practice then a rifle and you have to get much much closer to whatever you are hunting. I use a bow with the kids but we rarely catch anything. If you really need the meat better use a gun.
  - orwin 5y ago
    My biological grandfather live in deep West Virginia. They do have rifles (shotguns rather i think) but they "hunt" with traps. There is a lot of deer there, and from what i heard their group were never great hunters, way better riders than hunters at least, and it was always easier for them to kill a trapped deer than shoot at it (and also the risk of shooting on someone you know, it was a small back-to-lander community). Nowadays they don't need the meat anymore (and they don't ride horses either, old age catching up), but they still use traps sometime. I think the rationnal was also to be a lot less subject to snake attacks. You had to got hunt with a dog to avoid those, and even then it wasn't foolproof. And there was no road access until the late 90s, making moving without horses (who didn't fare that well with dogs) inconvenient at best.
- hackernews666 5y ago
  Bow and arrow is more environmentally friendly but is typically deemed inhumane/abuse by animal welfare activists.
progre 5y ago
Yeah, I'm not too worried about this. Even if you don't find the bullet, it's pretty easy to see the bullet damage when the skin is removed, and those bits gets cut away with large margins before curing, othervise the meat will start to rot there.
- nkurz 5y ago
  It may not be as easy as you think to remove all lead contaminated meat. Here's a quote from a study published by the Minnesota DNR (a decidedly pro-hunting source): "The ballistic tip bullet (rapid expansion) had the highest fragmentation rate, with an average of 141 fragments per carcass and an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In one carcass, a fragment was found 14 inches from the exit wound. Soft point bullets (rapid expansion) left an average of 86 fragments at an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In this research, bonded lead-core bullets (controlled expansion, exposed lead core) performed almost identically to the soft-core bullets and left an average of 82 fragments with an average maximum distance of nine inches from the wound." https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary.html https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary.... It's up to you how concerned you should be, but if you hunt large game with a rifle and are cutting away less than these distances, you are probably occasionally ingesting lead fragments.
chmod600 5y ago
The article has some good numbers, but it's hard to tell how significant it really is in the grand scheme of a lifestyle. Everything has some risks and you need to prioritize somewhat. Not that I hunt anyway.
bell-cot 5y ago
What a sad culture-wars-meet-public-health mess. Idea - a non-profit, lead by a few high-profile celebrity hunters, which pays the cost of some "free upgrade to lead-free ammo" coupons that are offered (free on request) with hunting licenses. And a "safely feed your family" brochure goes out with every license, period.
- nkurz 5y ago
  It's a good idea, and there are a few programs that provide free non-toxic ammunition to hunters in some areas. Here's one: https://www.ventanaws.org/ammunition.html https://www.ventanaws.org/ammunition.html
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
kokanator 5y ago
It is interesting how many obviously non-hunter and/or non-shooters are weighing in here. Having hunted nearly 40 years for all types of game and in a large number of different settings I wanted to provide a few observations from experience to help the conversation: - Lead tends superior ballistically to alternatives - Lead induces less damage to the firearm - To use non-lead alternatives you typically either have increase the size of the projectile( (s) in the case of shotgun shot ) and/or increase the powder charge. This typically means an individual will need to purchase different firearms. For instance, to get close to the ballistic performance of lead shot in a 12 ga shotgun you will need a 3.5 inch shot shells. The vast majority of shotguns accept 2.75 or 3 inch shells. - Steel shot in shotguns is more likely to wound game by creating bleed tunnels causing the animal/bird to bleed out much later and not be retrievable. Lead creates more catastrophic immediately fatal wounds. - When I took hunters education we were taught about lead and how to prepare game to minimize the risk of exposure. When my children took hunters education 15 years ago they were provided the same education. Not to mention the education they received from me. - Damaged meat can be identified and cut away. I was taught to cut at least 3 inches outside of the wound margin. From the xrays I have seen this seems appropriate. This doesn't just include the entry wound but also other areas of impacted meat. Process your own meat and take pride in the result. - Copper bullets do not expand as quickly and as effectively as lead bullets leading to more wounded game.
- hackernews666 5y ago
  Another thing to consider is penetration of the projectile for safety considerations. There are already hunting zones where rifle is not allowed for safety considerations, if you were forced to use steel slugs in a shotgun it would also reduce safe hunting opportunities.
  - kokanator 5y ago
    I grew up in one of these game units. It was a shotgun only unit. Unfortunately, a steel slug in a shotgun would permanently damage the shotgun because steel does not give the way lead does. A shotgun has a choke which reduces the barrel diameter toward the end of the barrel. There are sophisticated ways around this problem such a sabot loads but this begins to make the shotgun perform more like a rifle defeating the entire purpose.
moistly 5y ago
Lots of “ooh, the alternatives are too expensive” but that’s just a supply & demand issue that will be resolved the moment everyone switches to lead.
jabl 5y ago
Denmark started limiting use of lead shot hunting in the mid-1980'ies, eventually leading to a total ban in the mid 90'ies. After some initial resistance, it seems it has since become accepted. No statistically significant increase in woundings have been observed, nor any statistically significant increase in hunter injuries due to ricochets either. See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/

47 points by tomohawk 5y ago

I think the link should be: https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170.html https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170.html (submitted link has accidentally captured some sort of custom fragment-deep-link-in-the-url implementation)

dang 5y ago
Ok, we've changed to that from https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170/a-lack-of-lead-inspection-in-donated-venison https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170/a-lac.... Thanks!

avalys 5y ago

Lead contamination is a bit of a crusade of mine. I'm always frustrated when the topic comes up. People will object to any proposed improvement by saying "I've been doing <XYZ> for 40 years and it hasn't killed me yet!" Yeah, it hasn't killed you, but how do you know you're not 10 IQ points dumber than you could have been?

dhosek 5y ago
It astonishes me that it’s 2021 and they're still selling toys with lead paint and garden hose fixtures with lead in them.
- andrewxdiamond 5y ago
  Where? That’s not really a problem in the US as far as I’m aware
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Surely you don't think each and every product from all those IKEA-named Chinese resellers on Amazon has been closely vetted for lead and other banned components? https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-poisoning-2019-8 https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-poiso... > A breaking investigation from the Wall Street Journal revealed that online retail giant Amazon has been selling thousands of products that have failed federal safety tests, including children's toys containing four to 411 times the safe limit of lead.
    - voisin 5y ago
      Is there an at home test to determine if anything you have contains lead?
      - andrewxdiamond 5y ago
        Yes, there are a lot. Don’t buy the overpriced “home” versions. 3M LeadCheck Swabs, Instant Lead Test, 8-Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BK15PU/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BK15PU/
  - tristor 5y ago
    > Where? That’s not really a problem in the US as far as I’m aware In the US. A lot of goods that originate from overseas made with metal contain lead in their alloys, and lead paint is often used for white paints in particular. A LOT of goods enter the US market from overseas imports containing lead, and there's no real establish process for testing and validating safety or functionality of these products prior to sale.
  - louky 5y ago
    Garden hoses are lead contaminated, at least the ones I avoided all said 'this product contains lead'. I'm in the US. Quick link - https://turfmechanic.com/garden-hoses-lead/ https://turfmechanic.com/garden-hoses-lead/
    - orangepurple 5y ago
      RV specific hoses are much more expensive and they don't contain lead. It's madness.
  - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
    I wish. Serious lead reduction efforts only started ca. 50 years ago, regulations were phased in irregularly across a huge variety of industries, applications, and jurisdictions over a long period of time (causing many lead-containing products to simply shift from one supply chain to another), and much of it is effectively on the honor system. https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/consumer-products.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/consumer-pr... https://uspirg.org/news/usp/recall-toys-still-found-lead-paint-decade-after-virtual-ban https://uspirg.org/news/usp/recall-toys-still-found-lead-pai...
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    It's not really a problem for things made in the US. It's a huge problem for things made in China and then imported into the US.
robobob5000 5y ago
what is the proposed improvement in this case though? There is something weird about this article. It feels like a paid for hit piece from the anti-gun crowd rather than an organic article about lead issues.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  As the article mentions, the simple solution is to use non-lead ammo; which is available but more expensive than lead. Also suggestions ".. include selecting shotguns instead of high-powered rifles, and avoiding acidic cooking ingredients, since acids can dissolve even more of the lead into the food. Additional advice for hunters who use lead ammunition is to avoid shooting the deer in regions of the body with heavy bones, such as shoulders and hips, where the resulting impact scatters more lead into the meat."
- pineconewarrior 5y ago
  Steel shot. Seems pretty straightforward as a solution. The performance is not quite as good and it's more expensive, I assume.
  - thrower123 5y ago
    Steel shot is terrible. I don't know exactly why, but I have seen geese have the feathers blown off of them, you can see them shiver in the sky as they get pelted, and the will wobble and shrug it off. Usually to get just far enough away that they die in a place where they are irretrievable. Lead would stagger them enough that they'd go right down. The newer bismuth and tungsten rounds are almost as good, but at something like $5/round, it's absurd.
    - pineconewarrior 5y ago
      Yes indeed. You have to reduce distance quite a bit to get the same stopping power, due to the difference in sectional density. Furthermore, lead ammunition deforms as it penetrates - steel does not - which leads to less internal damage and a higher rate of target survival.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
Ugh, as a kid I grew up fishing shot out of cooked rabbit and pheasant and stacking it up on the side of my plate; or accidentally spitting it out because if you weren't careful you'd crack a tooth. My grandfather goes instantly from 0 to 60 with rage if anyone tries to tell him anything about his hunting (we had hide his ammo when he started getting befuddled). He'll never change. Hopefully younger hunters are aware of just because we did XYZ and it was bad for you means you don't have to do it anymore.
- Kluny 5y ago
  > My grandfather goes instantly from 0 to 60 with rage Classic symptom of lead poisoning, ironically.
  - LeifCarrotson 5y ago
    Had a guy blow up when I indicated I would prefer Teflon tape for sealing pipe threads over his favorite Master's metallic pipe dope. Here's the MSDS: https://www.era-env.com/ERAWcfService/getmsdscontent.svc/?key=JBKg6NDl9o2QBL%2formyuOg%3d%3d&value=kFwJll4enGQ%3d https://www.era-env.com/ERAWcfService/getmsdscontent.svc/?ke... It's basically powdered lead in an alcohol carrier that you wipe on your threads with a brush. At first I thought he was just a grumpy old plumber tired of liberal environmentalist kids with their newfangled safety regulations, but perhaps the lifetime of working with leaded solders and leaded thread sealant has affected him in some way...
literallyaduck 5y ago
This is the insidious thing about lead, those consumers who have been exposed now may be unequipped to rationally evaluate the problem, the risk, the severity and alternatives because of their diminished mental state. Victims of lead based mental illness have the same vote weight that you do.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Your post is a textbook example of a Kafka trap.
mitchbob 5y ago
Are there alternatives to lead for bullets and shotgun shells? If so, it would great to mandate them and keep all that lead out of the environment. We got rid of lead in most fuels; ammunition could be next.
- tristor 5y ago
  Yes, there are alternatives, primarily steel, but it's quite a bit more expensive. For my purposes, I only ever hunt with steel pellet shells, I would never use lead.
  - kache_ 5y ago
    Hunting is so expensive anyways. What's a few more bucks? Pun not intended
    - tristor 5y ago
      Most families that hunt for meat, including mine, are not wealthy. We are not talking about sport hunters, we are talking about subsistence hunting. It's still very common in large swathes of America. Just looking around for the lowest prices possible, the cost of steel shot is more than double the cost of lead shot for #3 shells (commonly used for waterfowl). For #00 shells (used for deer and medium game) it's more than three times as expensive. Ammo costs add up quick, as you need to practice with the same shells you hunt with. Working in tech, I can afford to buy higher quality and more expensive things, and the ammunition I use is no exception. But for many people it's not really within their budget. Lead is cheap, it's one of the main reason its used to make projectiles in the first place.
      - stefan_ 5y ago
        Geez, wait until they see the bill for cleaning up all the lead in the environment from their shooting.
        thghtihadanacct 5y ago
sneak 5y ago
The classically false "that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger."
hackernews666 5y ago
It doesn't help that there is limited study about casual contact with lead. Most sportsman understand the risks of commercial levels of lead exposure but the occasional contact with the human body or environment is not easily quantifiable or understood.

killingtime74 5y ago

Apparently lead free ammunition is available. I don’t know why you’d be so lazy not to buy it if you’re actually going to eat the meat

chroem- 5y ago
It's not so straightforward. While there are solid copper projectiles available in some jurisdictions, most lead-free projectiles have been decried by gun control activists as "cop killer bullets". Lead is extremely soft, and thus uniquely bad at penetrating body armor. Projectile composition is heavily regulated in the US, ironically in favor of the continued use of lead projectiles.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  I mean, there are solid-copper hollow-tip bullets on the shelf at the Bass Pro Shop and I live in California. This persecution story seems like a 2A fundamentalist fantasy.
  - tristor 5y ago
    Solid copper doesn't behave the same way ballistically to lead, as it is significantly less dense. You don't seem to actually understand how firearms work and your perspective is based entirely on what happens in California, a notoriously unfriendly state to anyone who doesn't actively hate guns.
    - jeffbee 5y ago
      Copper bullets did not prevent California hunters from taking tens of thousands of deer, elk, and pigs last year. I honestly don't know what you are whining about. There is a copper rifle round out there for every type of game you can hunt in America.
  - hackernews666 5y ago
    In NJ for example it is a felony to posses to hollow points (NJSA 2C:39-3(f)) so you will likely face an additional felony if you are ever charged on another gun crime. The projectile of a piece of ammunition is also used by the feds as an excuse to ban importation if they deem it not suitable for sporting purposes.

hkon 5y ago

Interesting. Is any part of an animal safe to eat when harvested with lead projectiles? Is it just the area of impact and near, or does it spread throughout very quickly?

tristor 5y ago
Generally speaking, it mostly only affects the meat where lead projectiles hit. The most common lead projectiles for hunting though are shotgun pellets in shells, which have a sizeable spread and often used for small targets like waterfowl and rodents. So a small target and a sizeable spread of pellets means that while only hit and splatter areas are affected, that could be most of the usable meat as well.
sneak 5y ago
From TFA: > Upon impact, a lead bullet can fragment into tiny microparticles, too small to see with the naked eye or sense when eating. A deer processor in Pennsylvania who requested anonymity shared his first-hand experience. "Seventy-five percent of the time when I find a bullet in the carcass, I only find the base. I know the lead is all in the meat somewhere," he told EHN. > Scientists have used X-rays to visualize and count sometimes hundreds of minute lead particles in hunted meat, and have detected high concentrations of lead in hunted carcasses using chemical analysis. Although the U.S. Food and Drug Administration does not recognize a safe limit for the amount of lead in meat, the European Commission set maximum levels at 0.1 parts per million (ppm). > Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as six inches from the entry wound.
- kokanator 5y ago
  >Concentrations of lead more than 100 times this limit have been detected in the meat of lead-shot carcasses as far as six inches from the entry wound. In which direction? Was there any indication of damage? Did they only measure from the round bullet entry? The statement provides no additional details. The entry wound is often small, about the size of the projectile. While the damage after entry is greater and often identifiable. It is important to follow the projectiles through the game.

pengaru 5y ago

Sounds like another vote for using a bow and arrow...

opwieurposiu 5y ago
Bow is nice because it does not make noise when you practice and you don't have to worry about the kids getting into it since there is no way they can pull it back. On the other hand it takes a lot more practice then a rifle and you have to get much much closer to whatever you are hunting. I use a bow with the kids but we rarely catch anything. If you really need the meat better use a gun.
- orwin 5y ago
  My biological grandfather live in deep West Virginia. They do have rifles (shotguns rather i think) but they "hunt" with traps. There is a lot of deer there, and from what i heard their group were never great hunters, way better riders than hunters at least, and it was always easier for them to kill a trapped deer than shoot at it (and also the risk of shooting on someone you know, it was a small back-to-lander community). Nowadays they don't need the meat anymore (and they don't ride horses either, old age catching up), but they still use traps sometime. I think the rationnal was also to be a lot less subject to snake attacks. You had to got hunt with a dog to avoid those, and even then it wasn't foolproof. And there was no road access until the late 90s, making moving without horses (who didn't fare that well with dogs) inconvenient at best.
hackernews666 5y ago
Bow and arrow is more environmentally friendly but is typically deemed inhumane/abuse by animal welfare activists.

progre 5y ago

Yeah, I'm not too worried about this. Even if you don't find the bullet, it's pretty easy to see the bullet damage when the skin is removed, and those bits gets cut away with large margins before curing, othervise the meat will start to rot there.

nkurz 5y ago
It may not be as easy as you think to remove all lead contaminated meat. Here's a quote from a study published by the Minnesota DNR (a decidedly pro-hunting source): "The ballistic tip bullet (rapid expansion) had the highest fragmentation rate, with an average of 141 fragments per carcass and an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In one carcass, a fragment was found 14 inches from the exit wound. Soft point bullets (rapid expansion) left an average of 86 fragments at an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In this research, bonded lead-core bullets (controlled expansion, exposed lead core) performed almost identically to the soft-core bullets and left an average of 82 fragments with an average maximum distance of nine inches from the wound." https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary.html https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary.... It's up to you how concerned you should be, but if you hunt large game with a rifle and are cutting away less than these distances, you are probably occasionally ingesting lead fragments.

chmod600 5y ago

The article has some good numbers, but it's hard to tell how significant it really is in the grand scheme of a lifestyle. Everything has some risks and you need to prioritize somewhat. Not that I hunt anyway.

bell-cot 5y ago

What a sad culture-wars-meet-public-health mess. Idea - a non-profit, lead by a few high-profile celebrity hunters, which pays the cost of some "free upgrade to lead-free ammo" coupons that are offered (free on request) with hunting licenses. And a "safely feed your family" brochure goes out with every license, period.

nkurz 5y ago
It's a good idea, and there are a few programs that provide free non-toxic ammunition to hunters in some areas. Here's one: https://www.ventanaws.org/ammunition.html https://www.ventanaws.org/ammunition.html
- deleted 5y ago
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kokanator 5y ago

It is interesting how many obviously non-hunter and/or non-shooters are weighing in here. Having hunted nearly 40 years for all types of game and in a large number of different settings I wanted to provide a few observations from experience to help the conversation: - Lead tends superior ballistically to alternatives - Lead induces less damage to the firearm - To use non-lead alternatives you typically either have increase the size of the projectile( (s) in the case of shotgun shot ) and/or increase the powder charge. This typically means an individual will need to purchase different firearms. For instance, to get close to the ballistic performance of lead shot in a 12 ga shotgun you will need a 3.5 inch shot shells. The vast majority of shotguns accept 2.75 or 3 inch shells. - Steel shot in shotguns is more likely to wound game by creating bleed tunnels causing the animal/bird to bleed out much later and not be retrievable. Lead creates more catastrophic immediately fatal wounds. - When I took hunters education we were taught about lead and how to prepare game to minimize the risk of exposure. When my children took hunters education 15 years ago they were provided the same education. Not to mention the education they received from me. - Damaged meat can be identified and cut away. I was taught to cut at least 3 inches outside of the wound margin. From the xrays I have seen this seems appropriate. This doesn't just include the entry wound but also other areas of impacted meat. Process your own meat and take pride in the result. - Copper bullets do not expand as quickly and as effectively as lead bullets leading to more wounded game.

hackernews666 5y ago
Another thing to consider is penetration of the projectile for safety considerations. There are already hunting zones where rifle is not allowed for safety considerations, if you were forced to use steel slugs in a shotgun it would also reduce safe hunting opportunities.
- kokanator 5y ago
  I grew up in one of these game units. It was a shotgun only unit. Unfortunately, a steel slug in a shotgun would permanently damage the shotgun because steel does not give the way lead does. A shotgun has a choke which reduces the barrel diameter toward the end of the barrel. There are sophisticated ways around this problem such a sabot loads but this begins to make the shotgun perform more like a rifle defeating the entire purpose.

moistly 5y ago

Lots of “ooh, the alternatives are too expensive” but that’s just a supply & demand issue that will be resolved the moment everyone switches to lead.

jabl 5y ago

Denmark started limiting use of lead shot hunting in the mid-1980'ies, eventually leading to a total ban in the mid 90'ies. After some initial resistance, it seems it has since become accepted. No statistically significant increase in woundings have been observed, nor any statistically significant increase in hunter injuries due to ricochets either. See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30506141/