7 ms·

What I told the students of Princeton

71 points by leephillips 5y ago

Ar-Curunir 5y ago
Is a TERF really complaining about censorship? When a multi-billionaire author regularly platforms TERFs? When trans women are regularly at the highest risk of being homeless and subsequently killed? Like, there’s so many better things to complain about, I wish people like these stopped grifting and and did some actual work for a change.
loquor 5y ago
The chilling effect is real. It's disheartening that we are asked to play along with unsubstantiated dogma on topics as fundamental as gender. Has anyone here managed to express opinions like Shrier's in a casual manner without having the reputation take a hit?
- vb6sp6 5y ago
  Her book is the number one result on amazon when you search "transgender" She's speaking to an audience of Princeton students and grads You are reading about it on hacker news Chilling effect? People would pay really good money for this type of exposure.
  - loquor 5y ago
    Its survival bias. She stuck her head out, didn't budge, and navigated the criticism smartly. But many other faculty members and writers have been forcibly ushered out of their positions or made to recant their non-woke opinions.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Well yeah all the time ! Around me (I know no trans and am not either), nobody seems to care, when I say it's perfectly fine and tolerable people either give 0 fuck or agree. The toilet thing only seems to bother girls, the guys I know dont mind if girls wanna come in ours, even non trans. And I think it's less dogma than sad experience with abusive males on the woman's side.
dustintrex 5y ago
I would like to be sympathetic to the author's argument, but this article is just riddled with trivially falsifiable inaccurate assertions. > There are books that are never recommended by the Amazon algorithm, irrespective of how well they’ve sold or how likely a specific shopper is to buy them. Or, at least, there’s one such book. I’ll let you try and guess what it is. YMMV, but if I search for "transgender" on Amazon.com in an incognito window, the very first result is the author's book. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=transgender https://www.amazon.com/s?k=transgender > But did you know that, for contested entries, Wikipedia assigns editors, some of whom are ideologically committed activists, many of whom have very particular views they want you to walk away with. Wikipedia is far from perfect, but this is still a gross misrepresentation of how admins and the editing process operate on contested topics. It is interesting though that Wikipedia's Transgender page does not mention the rapid-onset gender dysphoria controversy at all though. > a 22 year old biological male at Penn who was competing on the men’s team as recently as November of 2019. That male athlete now holds multiple U.S. records in women’s swimming, erasing the hard work of so many of our best female athletes This appears to be a reference to Lia (Will) Thomas, who as far as I can tell does not hold any U.S. records in women's swimming. https://ussanews.com/swimmer-who-once-was-male-now-shattering-records-against-women/ https://ussanews.com/swimmer-who-once-was-male-now-shatterin...
- badlucklottery 5y ago
  > YMMV, but if I search for "transgender" on Amazon.com in an incognito window, the very first result is the author's book. Yup, I'm seeing the same thing here. And this blog post was created 7h ago so I kind of doubt that's a recent change. I'm starting to think there's a lot of easy advertising to be had on the "I'm being silenced!" circuit nowadays. And it probably directly targets the type of people who'd be into this book.
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    It's because the transgender "cause" is not very interesting: either you re a fucktard and have a strong opinion on it but you're most likely low impact on society, or you don't care because it's so rare it will prob never matter to you. So trying to get any sort of noise around your cause (because you like the attention, or you're tired of the fucktards for some reason) means you need to pretend there are very powerful people who care negatively. But it's likely Amazon or Wiki treat the "transgender" namespace just like the "carrot" namespace and care not at all what result it yields or what people have to say about it. Any result this person would ever reach would be for more people to say "meh it's true it doesn't matter what gender you want to be" which probably will never satisfy someone proud of being trans to the point of organizing speeches around it.
krageon 5y ago
I think the author has a point to make that is definity valid, but she wraps it up in this hyper-western freedom ideal that says if you conform you may as well not have been born. To me this is a shame, because the argument that perhaps gender politics is entirely too violent at times and could benefit from having more calm adults is a reasonable one. It doesn't really matter if you are a proponent or a detractor, the hate is there for all to see. Sometimes it seems like this is what unites everyone who even cares to speak of these topics: no matter what they believe, they do so while angry. I find myself wishing that this argument would have been made separate from the fetishism of freedom, which is in itself an position that is a little alienating in how it is presented (and angry besides - isn't this the problem?)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mrjangles 5y ago
  I don't know, I think there are plenty of people out there who aren't angry, you just can't really hear them because they aren't yelling. One thing I know for sure, the amount of anger someone has is always inversely proportionate to how much they know about a topic. Whenever someone gets angry about a topic I know for sure they know nothing about it and are therefore not worth wasting time on.
  - lupire 5y ago
    You believe no one is ever legitimately angry? Really?
- WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
  She wraps it in terms most understood by her audience which is, well, very Western.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- artfulhippo 5y ago
  How can you resist the dominant ideology without valuing freedom? How can you challenge the norms set by the elite without asserting your right as an individual to take a non-conforming stance? Even if you argue that society would be more harmonious if we all followed a different/better norm, how are you entitled to make a statement that contradicts the current paradigm if you don't value the ability to contradict the current paradigm of society? I suppose that an alternative basis than freedom is faith; eg "God told me to stand up for divine principles" — but even then, why are you uniquely responsive to God's will? Seriously, I'd love to understand how you critique the status quo/advocate for change without valuing freedom.
low_tech_love 5y ago
Can anyone explain to me why this is flagged and disappeared from the front page? Just curious to understand the process.
- leephillips 5y ago
  I believe if enough people flag a story then this happens. And, sadly, it’s clearly the case that there are a large number of HN members who will flag stories that support a viewpoint at odds with the ideology that they favor, regardless of the quality of the story or the discussion, or its score. It is a way of doing ideological battle by abusing mechanisms that are supposed to serve another purpose.
- bob446 5y ago
  Because HN is full of woke idiots who think that women can have penises
tzs 5y ago
As far as sports go, maybe it is time to stop having men's sports and women's sports and instead have different leagues in a sport be based on performance or measurable characteristics directly related to the sport. You finish near the top a lot in your league, you get bumped up to the next up higher performing league. You finish near the bottom a lot in your league, you get moved to the next lower performing league. That could take care of the issue of where transgendered people should compete, and it opens up competitive sports to more people.
- HKH2 5y ago
  That's one way to get rid of women's sports.
- kcplate 5y ago
  > and it opens up competitive sports to more people. The minor minor league levels will get zero audience and therefore zero money.
- cafard 5y ago
  We can also get rid of weight classes in boxing, wrestling, and MMA.
  - flyingfences 5y ago
    That's pretty much the opposite of what GP is advocating. The idea is to divide all sports into effective "weight classes" instead of segregating them by gender.
- hellojesus 5y ago
  We already have those leagues now... they're just called rec leagues. One issue I could think of is women playing a sport which has considerable groinal contact, such as basketball. I'm sure there is some amount of women players who would not be comfortable with men essentially grinding up on them in the paint. For those without experience, if you are offensively in the paint a typical strategy is to shove your butt out into the defenders groin to create space. By making all sports coed you invite the potential for more sexual harassment, especially at the lower levels of competition due to the close skill levels between minimally athletic men and moderately athletic women.
dekhn 5y ago
This should be unflagged. It's open, honest, and well-argued, even if you disagree with it.
March_f6 5y ago
Sure, revel in some sense of freedom for being a “contrarian.” But recognize the naïveté in thinking this has any constructive meaning in our time.
Gunax 5y ago
If what comes out of your mouth is (eg.) a disapproval of same-sex or inter-racial relationships, maybe you should be afraid to speak. And it's likely that Shirier would agree--I doubt she would be critical of eg. a publisher refusing to publish ku klux klan diatribes. The problem is that this isn't a black-and-white issue. Most people agree with cancelling someone at a certain point--we just dont all agree where to draw the line.

71 points by leephillips 5y ago

Is a TERF really complaining about censorship? When a multi-billionaire author regularly platforms TERFs? When trans women are regularly at the highest risk of being homeless and subsequently killed? Like, there’s so many better things to complain about, I wish people like these stopped grifting and and did some actual work for a change.

loquor 5y ago

The chilling effect is real. It's disheartening that we are asked to play along with unsubstantiated dogma on topics as fundamental as gender. Has anyone here managed to express opinions like Shrier's in a casual manner without having the reputation take a hit?

vb6sp6 5y ago
Her book is the number one result on amazon when you search "transgender" She's speaking to an audience of Princeton students and grads You are reading about it on hacker news Chilling effect? People would pay really good money for this type of exposure.
- loquor 5y ago
  Its survival bias. She stuck her head out, didn't budge, and navigated the criticism smartly. But many other faculty members and writers have been forcibly ushered out of their positions or made to recant their non-woke opinions.
xwolfi 5y ago
Well yeah all the time ! Around me (I know no trans and am not either), nobody seems to care, when I say it's perfectly fine and tolerable people either give 0 fuck or agree. The toilet thing only seems to bother girls, the guys I know dont mind if girls wanna come in ours, even non trans. And I think it's less dogma than sad experience with abusive males on the woman's side.

dustintrex 5y ago

I would like to be sympathetic to the author's argument, but this article is just riddled with trivially falsifiable inaccurate assertions. > There are books that are never recommended by the Amazon algorithm, irrespective of how well they’ve sold or how likely a specific shopper is to buy them. Or, at least, there’s one such book. I’ll let you try and guess what it is. YMMV, but if I search for "transgender" on Amazon.com in an incognito window, the very first result is the author's book. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=transgender https://www.amazon.com/s?k=transgender > But did you know that, for contested entries, Wikipedia assigns editors, some of whom are ideologically committed activists, many of whom have very particular views they want you to walk away with. Wikipedia is far from perfect, but this is still a gross misrepresentation of how admins and the editing process operate on contested topics. It is interesting though that Wikipedia's Transgender page does not mention the rapid-onset gender dysphoria controversy at all though. > a 22 year old biological male at Penn who was competing on the men’s team as recently as November of 2019. That male athlete now holds multiple U.S. records in women’s swimming, erasing the hard work of so many of our best female athletes This appears to be a reference to Lia (Will) Thomas, who as far as I can tell does not hold any U.S. records in women's swimming. https://ussanews.com/swimmer-who-once-was-male-now-shattering-records-against-women/ https://ussanews.com/swimmer-who-once-was-male-now-shatterin...

badlucklottery 5y ago
> YMMV, but if I search for "transgender" on Amazon.com in an incognito window, the very first result is the author's book. Yup, I'm seeing the same thing here. And this blog post was created 7h ago so I kind of doubt that's a recent change. I'm starting to think there's a lot of easy advertising to be had on the "I'm being silenced!" circuit nowadays. And it probably directly targets the type of people who'd be into this book.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  It's because the transgender "cause" is not very interesting: either you re a fucktard and have a strong opinion on it but you're most likely low impact on society, or you don't care because it's so rare it will prob never matter to you. So trying to get any sort of noise around your cause (because you like the attention, or you're tired of the fucktards for some reason) means you need to pretend there are very powerful people who care negatively. But it's likely Amazon or Wiki treat the "transgender" namespace just like the "carrot" namespace and care not at all what result it yields or what people have to say about it. Any result this person would ever reach would be for more people to say "meh it's true it doesn't matter what gender you want to be" which probably will never satisfy someone proud of being trans to the point of organizing speeches around it.

krageon 5y ago

I think the author has a point to make that is definity valid, but she wraps it up in this hyper-western freedom ideal that says if you conform you may as well not have been born. To me this is a shame, because the argument that perhaps gender politics is entirely too violent at times and could benefit from having more calm adults is a reasonable one. It doesn't really matter if you are a proponent or a detractor, the hate is there for all to see. Sometimes it seems like this is what unites everyone who even cares to speak of these topics: no matter what they believe, they do so while angry. I find myself wishing that this argument would have been made separate from the fetishism of freedom, which is in itself an position that is a little alienating in how it is presented (and angry besides - isn't this the problem?)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mrjangles 5y ago
I don't know, I think there are plenty of people out there who aren't angry, you just can't really hear them because they aren't yelling. One thing I know for sure, the amount of anger someone has is always inversely proportionate to how much they know about a topic. Whenever someone gets angry about a topic I know for sure they know nothing about it and are therefore not worth wasting time on.
- lupire 5y ago
  You believe no one is ever legitimately angry? Really?
WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
She wraps it in terms most understood by her audience which is, well, very Western.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
artfulhippo 5y ago
How can you resist the dominant ideology without valuing freedom? How can you challenge the norms set by the elite without asserting your right as an individual to take a non-conforming stance? Even if you argue that society would be more harmonious if we all followed a different/better norm, how are you entitled to make a statement that contradicts the current paradigm if you don't value the ability to contradict the current paradigm of society? I suppose that an alternative basis than freedom is faith; eg "God told me to stand up for divine principles" — but even then, why are you uniquely responsive to God's will? Seriously, I'd love to understand how you critique the status quo/advocate for change without valuing freedom.

low_tech_love 5y ago

Can anyone explain to me why this is flagged and disappeared from the front page? Just curious to understand the process.

leephillips 5y ago
I believe if enough people flag a story then this happens. And, sadly, it’s clearly the case that there are a large number of HN members who will flag stories that support a viewpoint at odds with the ideology that they favor, regardless of the quality of the story or the discussion, or its score. It is a way of doing ideological battle by abusing mechanisms that are supposed to serve another purpose.
bob446 5y ago
Because HN is full of woke idiots who think that women can have penises

tzs 5y ago

As far as sports go, maybe it is time to stop having men's sports and women's sports and instead have different leagues in a sport be based on performance or measurable characteristics directly related to the sport. You finish near the top a lot in your league, you get bumped up to the next up higher performing league. You finish near the bottom a lot in your league, you get moved to the next lower performing league. That could take care of the issue of where transgendered people should compete, and it opens up competitive sports to more people.

HKH2 5y ago
That's one way to get rid of women's sports.
kcplate 5y ago
> and it opens up competitive sports to more people. The minor minor league levels will get zero audience and therefore zero money.
cafard 5y ago
We can also get rid of weight classes in boxing, wrestling, and MMA.
- flyingfences 5y ago
  That's pretty much the opposite of what GP is advocating. The idea is to divide all sports into effective "weight classes" instead of segregating them by gender.
hellojesus 5y ago
We already have those leagues now... they're just called rec leagues. One issue I could think of is women playing a sport which has considerable groinal contact, such as basketball. I'm sure there is some amount of women players who would not be comfortable with men essentially grinding up on them in the paint. For those without experience, if you are offensively in the paint a typical strategy is to shove your butt out into the defenders groin to create space. By making all sports coed you invite the potential for more sexual harassment, especially at the lower levels of competition due to the close skill levels between minimally athletic men and moderately athletic women.

dekhn 5y ago

This should be unflagged. It's open, honest, and well-argued, even if you disagree with it.

March_f6 5y ago

Sure, revel in some sense of freedom for being a “contrarian.” But recognize the naïveté in thinking this has any constructive meaning in our time.

Gunax 5y ago

If what comes out of your mouth is (eg.) a disapproval of same-sex or inter-racial relationships, maybe you should be afraid to speak. And it's likely that Shirier would agree--I doubt she would be critical of eg. a publisher refusing to publish ku klux klan diatribes. The problem is that this isn't a black-and-white issue. Most people agree with cancelling someone at a certain point--we just dont all agree where to draw the line.