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Fun fact: The consensus between professional go and chess players is that all new AI systems (alphago, etc) have really revitalised the game and introduced incr

Fun fact: The consensus between professional go and chess players is that all new AI systems (alphago, etc) have really revitalised the game and introduced incredible amount of new strategies and depth.

wly_cdgr 5y ago
Yeah, whatever. As someone who grew up playing chess and is almost certainly much better at it than you, this future sucks
- _tkii 5y ago
  Why?
  - zem 5y ago
    climate change, no doubt.
  - Kaibeezy 5y ago
    Because the only game left will be thrones?
  - JanneVee 5y ago
    I don't know how go changed. But as for chess the tournament play at the master level have insane deep opening preparation done before with computers. They play preparation game where they try to guess what lines the opponent checked and memorized before the games. They aren't actually playing until their computer backed preparation ends more than the few moves that they have fed in to come up with something different. Both spectators and players kind of find this a little bit boring. I do acknowledge that this isn't a new phenomena Fischer complained about this before the computer engine era and came up with a chess variant to nullify deep opening prep!
    - _0ffh 5y ago
      Yeah, I guess half the opening is hoping to kick the opponent out of his preparations while staying within your own. Or maybe all.
    - Kelamir 5y ago
      The change in Go is that professionals now play more AI-like stuff, basically the same opening moves, and that's fairly boring to watch. It's the best sequences of moves we have so far, but also everyone knows them and isn't interested. Another change is that territory is more valued than influence now, which too makes games less fun to watch, at least in my experience. To my knowledge, Shibano Toramaru, professional Go player, used to play highly focused on influence, and his games were very interesting to watch; it was just spectacular. But after AlphaGo came he converted to focus on territory like everyone else, only occasionally letting his beast out. But I watched only a few videos on him so don't take my word; it's just my impression.
- wsc981 5y ago
  I don't understand why this is so depressing? You can still play against humans though. It's probably more fun anyways than playing versus a computer as in most games, isn't it?
  - logicchains 5y ago
    Like in first-person shooters; it's no fun to play against bots with perfect aim and superhuman reflexes.
    - WJW 5y ago
      Then don't, there are plenty of humans available to play chess (or first person shooters) with.
    - krageon 5y ago
      But it is fun to play against well-tuned bots. That's one of the ways you can improve.
jart 5y ago
Sad fact: Lee Sedol retired after AlphaGo defeated him.
- visarga 5y ago
  Caching out at the height of his fame.
- jm547ster 5y ago
  3 years after...
  - jart 5y ago
    Here's what Lee Sedol said when he retired: > With the debut of AI in Go games, I've realized that I'm not at the top even if I become the number one through frantic efforts. https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20191127004800315 https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20191127004800315 He'd been playing Go professionally for 24 years. I never said he ragequit. He's too great a man to do something like that. Lee instead apologized for his losses, stating "I misjudged the capabilities of AlphaGo and felt powerless" while emphasizing that the defeat was his own and "not a defeat of mankind". I imagine being the Hector of humanity is quite a burden to bear. His professional ratings then took a dive for a few years https://www.goratings.org/en/history/ https://www.goratings.org/en/history/ before he announced his retirement. To this day he remains the only human being who's ever won a single game against AlphaGo.
    - Buttons840 5y ago
      He's the last human to ever beat the strongest Go AI. I don't know if he's happy about it, but he'll have a special place in the history books because of that. And like Chess, the game of Go will continue to be played and loved.
  - newswasboring 5y ago
    yeah but still because of it[1] [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/27/20985260/ai-go-alphago-lee-se-dol-retired-deepmind-defeat https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/27/20985260/ai-go-alphago-l...
loxias 5y ago
I wish alphago was more "democratized" -- that is to say, I have many questions and experiments I'd love to run on it (a friend of mine and I have frequently pondered Go played in various different topological spaces, and I'd love to see an AI's result, for example).
- franknstein 5y ago
  Fun idea. Did you reach any interesting conclusions?
- kadoban 5y ago
  Look into Katago. It's an open source AI in the same general style as AlphaGo, with an empasis on training speed. On 9x9 you can get up to superhuman really quickly on just a decent home machine (I think hours/days, can't remember exactly and it's probably improved since I looked).
  - loxias 5y ago
    Awesome! Thanks! Checking it out now.
  - elefantastisch 5y ago
    You can also just download pre-trained models. Get those set up and then install Sabaki (https://sabaki.yichuanshen.de/ https://sabaki.yichuanshen.de/) and connect it to your KataGo... instant (ok, a few hours probably if it's your first time setting it up) superhuman Go AI. There's even an npm package you can use to process SGF files and automatically score moves as good/questionable/bad + generate variations that were better choices: https://github.com/9beach/analyze-sgf/blob/master/README.en-US.md https://github.com/9beach/analyze-sgf/blob/master/README.en-... (Edit: Misread what the other poster was trying to do, but I'm leaving this here as a reference for anyone else who just wants to use KataGo on their own machine on their own Go games.)

wly_cdgr 5y ago

Yeah, whatever. As someone who grew up playing chess and is almost certainly much better at it than you, this future sucks

_tkii 5y ago
Why?
- zem 5y ago
  climate change, no doubt.
- Kaibeezy 5y ago
  Because the only game left will be thrones?
- JanneVee 5y ago
  I don't know how go changed. But as for chess the tournament play at the master level have insane deep opening preparation done before with computers. They play preparation game where they try to guess what lines the opponent checked and memorized before the games. They aren't actually playing until their computer backed preparation ends more than the few moves that they have fed in to come up with something different. Both spectators and players kind of find this a little bit boring. I do acknowledge that this isn't a new phenomena Fischer complained about this before the computer engine era and came up with a chess variant to nullify deep opening prep!
  - _0ffh 5y ago
    Yeah, I guess half the opening is hoping to kick the opponent out of his preparations while staying within your own. Or maybe all.
  - Kelamir 5y ago
    The change in Go is that professionals now play more AI-like stuff, basically the same opening moves, and that's fairly boring to watch. It's the best sequences of moves we have so far, but also everyone knows them and isn't interested. Another change is that territory is more valued than influence now, which too makes games less fun to watch, at least in my experience. To my knowledge, Shibano Toramaru, professional Go player, used to play highly focused on influence, and his games were very interesting to watch; it was just spectacular. But after AlphaGo came he converted to focus on territory like everyone else, only occasionally letting his beast out. But I watched only a few videos on him so don't take my word; it's just my impression.
wsc981 5y ago
I don't understand why this is so depressing? You can still play against humans though. It's probably more fun anyways than playing versus a computer as in most games, isn't it?
- logicchains 5y ago
  Like in first-person shooters; it's no fun to play against bots with perfect aim and superhuman reflexes.
  - WJW 5y ago
    Then don't, there are plenty of humans available to play chess (or first person shooters) with.
  - krageon 5y ago
    But it is fun to play against well-tuned bots. That's one of the ways you can improve.

jart 5y ago

Sad fact: Lee Sedol retired after AlphaGo defeated him.

visarga 5y ago
Caching out at the height of his fame.
jm547ster 5y ago
3 years after...
- jart 5y ago
  Here's what Lee Sedol said when he retired: > With the debut of AI in Go games, I've realized that I'm not at the top even if I become the number one through frantic efforts. https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20191127004800315 https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20191127004800315 He'd been playing Go professionally for 24 years. I never said he ragequit. He's too great a man to do something like that. Lee instead apologized for his losses, stating "I misjudged the capabilities of AlphaGo and felt powerless" while emphasizing that the defeat was his own and "not a defeat of mankind". I imagine being the Hector of humanity is quite a burden to bear. His professional ratings then took a dive for a few years https://www.goratings.org/en/history/ https://www.goratings.org/en/history/ before he announced his retirement. To this day he remains the only human being who's ever won a single game against AlphaGo.
  - Buttons840 5y ago
    He's the last human to ever beat the strongest Go AI. I don't know if he's happy about it, but he'll have a special place in the history books because of that. And like Chess, the game of Go will continue to be played and loved.
- newswasboring 5y ago
  yeah but still because of it[1] [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/27/20985260/ai-go-alphago-lee-se-dol-retired-deepmind-defeat https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/27/20985260/ai-go-alphago-l...

loxias 5y ago

I wish alphago was more "democratized" -- that is to say, I have many questions and experiments I'd love to run on it (a friend of mine and I have frequently pondered Go played in various different topological spaces, and I'd love to see an AI's result, for example).

franknstein 5y ago
Fun idea. Did you reach any interesting conclusions?
kadoban 5y ago
Look into Katago. It's an open source AI in the same general style as AlphaGo, with an empasis on training speed. On 9x9 you can get up to superhuman really quickly on just a decent home machine (I think hours/days, can't remember exactly and it's probably improved since I looked).
- loxias 5y ago
  Awesome! Thanks! Checking it out now.
- elefantastisch 5y ago
  You can also just download pre-trained models. Get those set up and then install Sabaki (https://sabaki.yichuanshen.de/ https://sabaki.yichuanshen.de/) and connect it to your KataGo... instant (ok, a few hours probably if it's your first time setting it up) superhuman Go AI. There's even an npm package you can use to process SGF files and automatically score moves as good/questionable/bad + generate variations that were better choices: https://github.com/9beach/analyze-sgf/blob/master/README.en-US.md https://github.com/9beach/analyze-sgf/blob/master/README.en-... (Edit: Misread what the other poster was trying to do, but I'm leaving this here as a reference for anyone else who just wants to use KataGo on their own machine on their own Go games.)