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I don’t know what exactly the truth is, but I’m one of the tech workers living in the Seattle area. I’ll start off by saying that I work 60 hours a week, at le

I don’t know what exactly the truth is, but I’m one of the tech workers living in the Seattle area. I’ll start off by saying that I work 60 hours a week, at least. My stress and anxiety levels are manageable now, but only because I found ways of managing them. They’re not reasonable though and most importantly, they’re not sustainable. Based on the neighborhood I live in and my compensation, I am extremely privileged. I don’t have money concerns that my parents had. Most things that I might need, I can buy them without having to think too much or without putting a dent in my net worth. But my job is not sustainable. So, I live way below my means and avoid any lifestyle creep. I would like to own a home, a nice one. Not a $1M property that’s not even comparable to my parents home. Given my compensation and many, many years of savings, this would be reasonable. I looked at several houses over the weekend. One dump after another, going for $1.3MM at the minimum. One actually had an offer accepted, merely hours after we toured it. They told us the buyer offered $1.6MM. But Seattle has become a lawless dump. The east side has started homes for $1.4MM where the inspection report shows you that you’re basically just paying for the land. If I have to be a renter my whole damn life and can’t even afford a house, what is the god damn point? Yeah I get paid very well, but I am a pawn of people who earn significantly more. And it’s not that I’m just comparing myself, but even after all this work and money I can’t comfortably buy a house - then where does this leave the majority of this country? I don’t know.

lowbloodsugar 5y ago
>"I don’t have money concerns that my parents had." vs >"can’t even afford a house" Only one of these statements can be true. Would you have money concerns if you did buy a house that is as good as your parents? i.e. if your housing costs were $10k/mo, $20k/mo or more?
cafard 5y ago
Neighbors' son and daughter-in-law are moving from the Washington, DC, suburbs to Raleigh, North Carolina. A four-bedroom house there in a good development costs maybe a third of what his parents' house would sell for in a good (but not most expensive) neighborhood of Washington.
t-writescode 5y ago
Honestly, if you're working 60 hours a week, and not by choice, it's time to start considering other positions. I don't work over 40 hours a week most weeks, and still make a reasonable salary. Admittedly, I'm not 1.5mm home rich; but, when rent is 2-3k, I don't find much value, myself, in buying a house or condo for more than like 500k, so I'm sitting and waiting, for now.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
huachimingo 5y ago
In modern life,you have a house as a service™. Jokes aside, why the prices are so high in some countries?
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  Buy to let, property speculation, property as investment. Basically, houses are being used to serve profiteering much moreso than actually housing people affordably.
  - zip1234 5y ago
    This is not the reason. The reason is a supply shortage caused by bad policy that restricts building. This might have some tiny impact on it, but is not the root cause. In Vancouver they did a tax on property speculation. Prices continue to rise because demand > supply and Vancouver has the same dumb policies as in the US.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      That can also be true, but let me point to this: https://openhousing.ca/2020/12/30/vancouver-empty-homes-crossed-30000-mark-this-year/ https://openhousing.ca/2020/12/30/vancouver-empty-homes-cros... That's a lot of un-lived-in houses.
  - jl2718 5y ago
    Mostly government loan programs and tax breaks. Also, because it’s a non-custodial physical asset, countries that allow foreign ownership get a lot of real estate investment from money laundered out of more financially-repressive countries.
- crowbahr 5y ago
  Because building housing is effectively illegal in much of the US. Single family zoning, NIMBYism, moral panics over public transit, suburbanism... the list goes on and on. Building duplexes is a start but Seattle should look a lot more like Brooklyn than like Idaho Falls: 6 story apartment buildings everywhere. Density. Public transit galore with very restricted parking. Only then would housing prices be reasonable.
FredPret 5y ago
Remote work will simultaneously be our salvation, and the downfall of overpriced lawless dumps all over the world
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  Anecdotally, most of the people I know who moved into remote jobs took the opportunity to move straight into the most expensive, most trendy areas. I know it's the exact opposite of what everyone was told would happen, but it turns a lot of places are expensive because people want to live there. Letting everyone cut physical ties to their jobs means everyone who wants to live there can now rush in and do it.
  - N1H1L 5y ago
    Yep. Which is why Boise, ID is the most expensive real estate market in the country. Remote work is coming with its own issues, rather than being the cure-all HN thinks. In many places, such as East TN (Knoxville) remote workers are moving in with CA salaries. HN thinks that someone remote working from Knoxville, TN should be paid Bay Area salaries. However, Bay Area salaries are high for a reason. There are many Knoxville companies that can't compete with those salaries, which is why they set up Knoxville offices in the first place. But now their employees are suddenly priced out - and no one is happy about it.
    - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
      That's the thing. I make a bay area salary working for an east coast tech company. If silicon valley thinks they can pay less they are shooting themselves in the foot and talent will leave. They seriously want to cut salaries in this inflationary market? Lol.
    - FredPret 5y ago
      And so, in a wave, money and talent will spread across the globe, from SF to Knoxville and then to the third world
jrochkind1 5y ago
So this all sucks, and you're in a rough situation, and I sympathasize, and I'm not trying to tell you not to complain or that it's under your control. I think you wrote that well in a way that is aware of a lot of what's going on and your position. BUT. "where does this leave the majority of this country?" -- well, the majority of the country does not have as crazy a real estate market as Seattle, as far as paying ~$1.5 mil for a dump where you're basically just paying for the land. That is not most of the country. So... have you considered moving elsewhere? Even if you take a salary drop, you can probably wind up ahead overall with cost of living, especially if buying a home is a main goal you have. Of course, you won't get to live in Seattle. Seattle is awfully nice, it's true. But maybe you can afford a nice home and without working 60 hour weeks either. But as far as "where does this leave the majority of this country" -- definitely not in the insane Seattle or San Francisco (or other "hot" cities with tech money) real estate market, is where. Where I live (on the east coast even, but in a disinvested non-top-tier city) you can easily get a perfectly liveable no-repairs-needed if modest-sized ~1300 sq ft townhome for $200K, or easily a nice detached larger home in a "good" neighborhood for $500K. which I almost don't want to talk about, becuase if the tech money comes here, maybe that won't last. But there's plenty of the country that's not on the coasts and is not Austin or Boulder or something, that is like this or even cheaper. (And, as we both know, there are also plenty of people in even these cities who don't make nearly as much as you or I, and have trouble affording a home in them too!)
- derekp7 5y ago
  To add on to this, point a real estate app (Zillow, etc) to Racine Wisconsin. The east side is fairly nice. Also, look at north-eastern Illinois, starting in a radius about 40 miles or so outside of Chicago. The grate thing about that area is there is a lot of open farm land, and pieces get converted to housing development periodically whenever the market can support it. So that means many areas have 1500 sqft on 1/4 acre homes in the $200K range (or $100k if you want to put some work into fixing it up). And everything is "close enough" to a major city, and there is enough of the city that expands out in the surrounding areas (a number of large employers aren't downtown, although some have been migrating back to the city to attract the employee demographic that prefers the city life).
twofornone 5y ago
I can relate to your modest living. Time to leave seattle. Not all privilege is financial, we are generally fortunate (assuming you are a programmer) to be able to work remote, especially with the post covid market. There are still places in the country where housing is affordable that aren't in the middle of nowhere. This anxiety over housing seems to be primarily limited to select cities.
burntoutfire 5y ago
Places like SV or Seattle or London are places you go to and make money in (and then leave), not places to settle in and stay forever. So, for now, make as much money for as long as you can, then relocate to some place where houses cost a fraction of your net worth and start working remotely from there. Alternatively, if you can stomach your job for 10+ years and really hate renting, get a mortgage for a good house in Seattle, pay it off while living in it, then move anywhere else and just life off renting the house + some cushy remote, possibly part-time, job. Really, most people in the world can only dream of being in your position.
- notsureaboutpg 5y ago
  >Places like SV or Seattle or London are places you go to and make money in (and then leave) AND THEN LEAVE is the part most people forget. Switch to a remote company (yes, take a pay cut if you have to), use your millions to buy a $500k home (essentially a mansion) in any mid-tier city (Indianapolis, Houston, Dallas, Cleveland, Oklahoma City, etc.) and use the savings as a nice little investment / nest egg, you can have more kids if you want, or just enjoy being rich.
- alexchantavy 5y ago
  Your username is very fitting for this comment haha: I'm assuming the 'fire' part of it means FI/RE?
  - burntoutfire 5y ago
    Yup, that's it.
- Talanes 5y ago
  That's not a sustainable model for a population though. That works for the average SV type, but the legion of service workers that support that population aren't making enough money for the (and leave) portion. If you're only barely making it here, where do you get the resources to plan a move?
  - 5y ago
silicon2401 5y ago
> even after all this work and money I can’t comfortably buy a house You can, just not in Seattle. Just like you probably couldn't comfortably buy a penthouse in NYC or a wooded estate in London. There are countless places you can afford to buy a house
- Schiendelman 5y ago
  They can buy a house in Seattle. Their numbers are weird, like they’re looking for something perfect instead of something reasonable.
subsubzero 5y ago
I 100% agree with you, I left another lawless dump in the sfbay area and am glad I did. Me and my spouse are both in higher level tech positions and we were not getting ahead financially. Taxes were sky high, our 100 year old house that needed alot of work was at the highest we could afford(cheapest house in the area), schools were terrible, packages were being stolen off of our porch. City services were non-existent, our quality of life was terrible. What is the point of working yourself into an early to grave to live like this? I made the move to be closer to family and although its not perfect its alot better than we had.
hereforphone 5y ago
I hope you can stay positive. You sound prudent. Are you really in a hurry to buy or can you wait for a crash? Are you tied to the lawless dump or can you move?
- vb6sp6 5y ago
  The crash isn't coming. And if it does those houses will be snapped up by wall st. They've already spent 77 billion in the last 6 months
  - labster 5y ago
    Human persons owning land is a relic of the past. Eventually corporate persons will own it all, and we will all be renters.
nly 5y ago
You're not alone. I have the exact same thoughts here in London, England. Average house prices here are 10x median income. Me and my partner want to start a family, but on my sole income we'll be paying ~50% of my take-home pay in mortgage + property taxes. It's probably not worth her continuing to work (although it's her choice) if we have a kid, due to the cost of childcare. Belts will be extremely tight even though I'm well inside the top 1% income wise. That said, I still thank my lucky stars I am where I am, and can't imagine how someone on a median income feels about their prospects.
- gambiting 5y ago
  I know it sounds harsh, unreasonable even, but....just move out of London. I"m in the north east, just bought a 3 bed house with a garden and a double drive for £180k. My friends just moved up from London literally a month ago, bought a massive townhouse with 5 bedrooms/3 bathrooms on a major street for £300k. We're all tech workers, we all work remotely - why stay in London? Because it has nice restaurants and museums? I don't buy it. Not if you want to start a family, own a house, afford a nice car and still have some money left at the end of the day.
  - nly 5y ago
    My career is in the types of companies typically only found in London. None of them hire remote workers, even now. My partners career requires her to work on-site in London. My family are in the South East. Besides all that, home ownership is really becoming a huge class and generational divide and house prices are rising faster outside London than within. It's only a matter of time before people in areas like you describe are priced out too.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      That's fair enough. One thing I'll say you might be very off the mark with the quarter of salary thing. Both me and my wife(also a programmer) make about 75% as much as those friends who just moved out of London. Yes, anecdotes, I know. But I'm pretty sure tech worker salaries aren't as bad up here as people make it out to be.
rozap 5y ago
That sounds miserable. Finding a sustainable employer imo is key to getting out of a situation that you recognize as subpar. I just left Seattle and moved to Olympia. Sold my Seattle house and got a lot more for my money this far out. My company is fully supporting remote into the future, and we've hired a lot of folks that don't live in Seattle. I won't name and shame, but Seattle has always had a number of hellish "startups" that are basically pump and dump schemes. They come and go. There are plenty of places that do offer sustainable employment, and I was lucky enough to land at one, so leaving the city was an option afforded to me by landing somewhere stable. Also fuck 60 hour weeks.
alasdair_ 5y ago
I ended up moving to Maple Valley. $1M will actually buy you a reasonable house here (assuming you don't need a large yard), it's very green and the schools are fantastic. I'm almost fully remote anyway so the occasional long commute to the office isn't much of an issue - if I had to be there in person every day it would be different as a rush-hour commute is almost an hour (it's 35 minutes normally) to downtown Seattle. Bellevue is closer of course. Almost every person in my neighborhood works in tech and most of them used to live in Seattle but got fed up with the prices and the size of homes available for any kind of non-insane price. Issaquah is another option at around $1.4M for a nice house. It also has great schools etc.
chiefalchemist 5y ago
> Most things that I might need, I can buy them without having to think too much or without putting a dent in my net worth. At 60 hrs per week there's no time to spend money.
88913527 5y ago
Your experience is the ethos of tang ping, or "lying down" movement. Sure, you can try, and even if you do your very best and end up in the top decile of society, you still are getting a run-down home at best in a selective metro area.
kortilla 5y ago
Move. The Seattle metro is a failed area for that dream. Everyone wanting to live in the same 5 cities doesn’t scale. Do what the people who moved to Seattle did 50 years ago. Move to some dumpy up and coming city.
- ragnot 5y ago
  Got any suggestions?
  - TeeMassive 5y ago
    Look at highway construction projects and towns nearby.
    - gknoy 5y ago
      Can you elaborate on why this is a good metric? It sounds plausible, but I don't understand why.
      - TeeMassive 5y ago
        Highways are built not to reduce traffic (it only does so very temporarily), but to encourage and support current and future economic growth.
  - vb6sp6 5y ago
    Cape Coral, FL Chattanooga, TN Birmingham, AL Sioux Falls, SD Fort Wayne, IN San Antonio, TX you can find 4-5 bed room houses for < 300k in some of these areas
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      ... And the local lawmaker is trying to get Roe v. Wade overturned at the same time as the 2020 election! Seriously, there's a reason properties are cheap over there.
sleepysysadmin 5y ago
>I’ll start off by saying that I work 60 hours a week, at least. Too much, even if you want to work that much. Do 40 for your primary and then 20 where you are your own boss. >Based on the neighborhood I live in and my compensation, I am extremely privileged. I don’t have money concerns that my parents had. Most things that I might need, I can buy them without having to think too much or without putting a dent in my net worth. HN is very likely >90% part of the zoom class. Though you it might not be zoom but rather whatever flavour, teams, etc. Welcome to being rich. You got there because of whatever skillset you have learnt. Good for you. >But Seattle has become a lawless dump. The east side has started homes for $1.4MM where the inspection report shows you that you’re basically just paying for the land. Welcome to high energy costs fueling inflation and pushing high energy things like homes so expensively. >If I have to be a renter my whole damn life and can’t even afford a house, what is the god damn point? Yeah I get paid very well, but I am a pawn of people who earn significantly more. You're looking at it the wrong way. What is your investment strategy? Rent vs own calculators certainly exist. Maybe you're out of real estate because you predict a crash? If you expect they continue rising. Then buying is the way to go.
- autokad 5y ago
  housing is not stocks, thus you cant think like a house is a stock. They are a leveraged investment that lacks the price discovery and liquidity stocks provide. imagine a 1m$ house. you have to put 200k$ down into a single house (no diversification). A 10% decline means a 50% decline on that 200k. selling it takes days to months with usually at least 6% fees. So this thing is highly illiquid. so its not like stocks where you can say 'well just buy and hold'. given that they dislike Seattle, Seattle is as bubbly as ever, there is a new condo in construction on every other block, and things like the mayor saying 'we are not going to enforce the law in favor of safety towards the protestors', purchasing a home in Seattle is a scary idea. Also another issue with Seattle its not like you can buy and rent out. a typical home that costs 3500$/month to own will only rent for max 2500$. so you have to be in something thats 1k$/month cash flow negative. even if you are networth positive, that may be unsustainable for the individual
  - 5y ago
wrath224 5y ago
My wife is from Tokyo. I feel this so much. I'm very grateful, we moved to the US during the start of the pandemic (a two year process in itself). I'm very grateful to work in this industry and work hard for the success of my company and team members. I moved to a small town near where I grew up. I can buy a house but we want, get japanese food, and a have a walk-able city. Safe place for kids too. Most people like these things. There are few places like this in the USA and those that have it are priced at an incredible level that is out of reach for us. I'm applying for a return Tokyo where I can afford a home in a great place near the city at a reasonable price, get great food and still do work I care about. I'm sure I'm not alone in this feeling.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  Hello, are you me?
  - wrath224 5y ago
    haha I'm sure there are dozens of us! Dozens!
floxy 5y ago
Take your down-payment, use it to buy a house free-and-clear with it somewhere less expensive, then work remotely? $199,900, 3,594 sq. ft. -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/110-E-1st-Ave-Flandreau-SD-57028/194616400_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/110-E-1st-Ave-Flandreau-S... $149,000, 2250 sq. ft. with an outdoor pool -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1643-Washington-Ave-Baxter-Springs-KS-66713/77161149_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1643-Washington-Ave-Baxte... $192,500, 3,017 sq. ft. -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/906-7th-Ave-S-Moorhead-MN-56560/89255327_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/906-7th-Ave-S-Moorhead-MN... $199,500, 2,799 sq. ft. -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/906-5th-Ave-NE-Devils-Lake-ND-58301/120647832_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/906-5th-Ave-NE-Devils-Lak... $174,900, 2,449 sq. ft. -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/504-W-3rd-St-Washburn-WI-54891/104928122_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/504-W-3rd-St-Washburn-WI-...
- outside1234 5y ago
  Too expensive for what you get
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    200k is too much for a six bedroom house?
    - outside1234 5y ago
      Yes - because then you have to live in North Dakota. There is a reason these places are cheap. It is partly because it would mean living in North Dakota.
      - willcipriano 5y ago
        If that were true, houses in SF would be the cheapest in the nation.
        outside1234 5y ago
beebmam 5y ago
Change your job. Live in Tacoma. Life's good.
- tjr225 5y ago
  Shhhh
pieterhg 5y ago
What stops you from moving somewhere more affordable?
- autokad 5y ago
  probably same reason as me. I hate Seattle, but I have to live here for employment. many employers dont give flexibility, and I am not in a position to work at an employer that both pays me well and allows me to live where I want.
wonderwonder 5y ago
You live in the golden age of remote work. Ask your current company if you can go remote or find a job that will let you, there are a huge number of them currently and so many of them are actively hiring. Get a well paying job and go live somewhere affordable. After stating this please know I am not trying to make light of your situation. I know there are a million factors that can prevent someone from moving, elderly parents, children with established friends, and a million others. Just saying that there are options out there. I would move to Bali if I could, but responsibilities are what they are. 60 hours a week though is not sustainable, whether you get a remote job or not, I highly encourage you to find a job where the workload is manageable. I was in the same boat as you and the long hours were pretty much killing me. One day I just decided to get a new job, now I work 40 hours a week, make more money, the job is remote and if I am forced to work OT I get paid overtime. Life is short friend, make decisions that will maximize your joy. Wish you the best.
api 5y ago
There's a simple solution to the house price issue: leave Seattle. There are many cities and towns across America with reasonable real estate, good communities, and good schools. In terms of local political zeitgeist you can easily take your pick as all kinds of tendencies are available.
- tjr225 5y ago
  Maybe but they don't have mountains, fjords, ocean and freshwater beaches, world class job markets(I know, I know; remote), and mild weather year round. For some such as myself the choice is anything but simple. In fact I left Seattle primarily for this very reason and one cheap house bought and sold in the midwest and a year later I found myself back.
whack 5y ago
> Based on the neighborhood I live in and my compensation, I am extremely privileged. I don’t have money concerns that my parents had. Most things that I might need, I can buy them without having to think too much or without putting a dent in my net worth. > If I have to be a renter my whole damn life and can’t even afford a house, what is the god damn point? People seem to have been taken in by the societal conditioning that you need to buy a house. Housing and shelter is a basic human need. Owning a house is not. As you yourself mentioned, you are extremely privileged and can afford most things you want without having to think twice. So why stress yourself out over piece of paper. I too live in one of the highest-COL places in America. And I'm paying $3k/month in rent for a wonderful 4-bedroom townhouse in a great neighborhood. I've done the math, and I financially come out ahead by paying $3k/month in rent and investing the remainder in worldwide index funds - a strategy which made me a millionaire in my 30s. I spend an hour commuting into the city via public transit, but that's no problem. I include this time as part of my working hours, and specifically chose my home for its accessibility to public transit. You mentioned that you're avoiding lifestyle creep. But your biggest lifestyle creep is your expectation of owning a family-sized home in a prime urban neighborhood. Let go of this societal brainwashing and you'll find yourself far happier.
- TeeMassive 5y ago
  Raising kids in an apartment is less than ideal.
- Clubber 5y ago
  Renting is throwing away money. I understand people do it when they only plan on living in a place for a brief period of time, but you'd still be better off buying a house, then selling after a few years in most time spans. There is risk though, but I doubt the risk would ever equal $3000 a month loss you are currently taking. For example, if you bought a house, it would have to lose $72K value in 2 years or $144K in 4 years (minus inflation, taxes, maintenance) to break even with paying $3000/month rent. However, if your house appreciates as most do in highly industrialized areas, you basically get paid to live there.
  - 5y ago
dfxm12 5y ago
I’ll start off by saying that I work 60 hours a week, at least. My stress and anxiety levels are manageable now, but only because I found ways of managing them. They’re not reasonable though and most importantly, they’re not sustainable. I'm in this boat. I told my manager, talked about my pay & how it doesn't match my responsibilities. I talked about how I'm OK with a little crunch, but crunch 52 weeks a year is not crunch, it's just taking advantage. He said he's aware of the situation and that everyone's in the same boat, as if that justifies it somehow. He said wait to ask for higher pay. I feel like I'm being jerked around. I hear this from you & I hear the same from some of my other friends in my field, too, so I doubt the grass is greener anywhere else, and leaving won't have much effect. I liked my job in the past. I think I would like it again if my workload was more reasonable. The best I can do is just constantly try to set expectations that, no, I won't be putting in any more additional extra effort.
- dougmwne 5y ago
  Go get an offer, then ask for a counteroffer now. You are absolutely being jerked around.
  - mrtranscendence 5y ago
    Yep. A few months ago I bagged myself a 10% raise immediately after asking for a counteroffer. Sometimes it's the only way.
- Schiendelman 5y ago
  The grass is much greener. There are lots of companies with reasonable hours now. Start asking for help. Message people (like me!) and we’ll refer you.
- wombat-man 5y ago
  lol, "wait to ask for higher pay" See if you can get more money or even just better work life balance elsewhere if you're not happy. These designated promotion/raise times are the biggest load of BS. "oh sorry, we'd love to give you a raise but those happen in 6 months, so maybe then?"
zippergz 5y ago
If you're defining the East Side as only Bellevue and Sammamish, maybe... But I just did a search in Bothell and there are a number of decent-looking houses for under $1M. Yeah, it's absolutely crazy compared to what it was even a few years ago, and I'm not going to argue that the values should be anywhere near as high as they are. But if you actually want to buy (rather than just vent, which is valid), you don't have to broaden your search that much to find much better options.
nostromo 5y ago
People get hung up on the price of homes when really they should be looking at the monthly cost of the mortgage. A $1m home is going to cost you $3,500 a month right now for the mortgage. That's very affordable for a lot of people in tech, especially couples.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  Umm...30 year mortgage? Some people (like me) don't want a 30 year mortgage. Too much risk. I want 10 years top.
  - thrtythreeforty 5y ago
    Why do you say a 30 year mortgage carries more risk (as a borrower) than a 10 year? You can always treat the 30 year as a 10 year (by throwing more money at the principle) but you can't do the reverse.
    - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
      30 years is 60% of your career and there's no evidence that the gravy train for software developers is going to last that long or from 2021 or that any particular individual will remain employable 30 years into their career (yes, many do but many also don't if the anecdotes on HN are to be believed).
    - davidgay 5y ago
      You do get lower interest rates on shorter-term mortgages, though.
  - wrath224 5y ago
    This is exactly my thought process. If I have to pay a mortgage I know I have to work a much longer to pay off the house. This means I have zero control over what dictates my daily actions in life. Having a mortgage means I’m not free to do whatever I wish; focus on family, start a company, work on passions. The cost of houses/homes are just too high. I don’t want all of my net worth to be in a house either. It’s JUST a house.
rednerrus 5y ago
By the end of next year prices will be back down to something reasonable.
whateveracct 5y ago
Last year, my Seattle lease was up. I saw the same thing with houses - I instead found a place in Tacoma for substantially less and it was substantially nicer. And it's super easy to go to Seattle and enjoy anything in the city whenever I wish. I'm also formerly a Seattle Amazon office worker. After a few years and promotions, I started working remotely for Bay Area companies (the short flight makes me appealing) for good pay for years now. But I still love living in WA. Sounds like you should consider leveraging your prestigious Seattle tech pedigree into a remote position. If you really work 60h now, your effective hourly wage will skyrocket even if you get paid less by nature of going down to sub-40h due to remote work. And it'll still be plenty of money for Western WA.
bgibbons 5y ago
Lived in Seattle for a decade before relocating to Utah 2.5 years ago. Growing up in central WA we visited Seattle often when I was a teenager in the 90's. It was a pleasant, beautiful place - many areas around Seattle still are (love the outdoors there). A lot has changed over the past 10-15 years and not for the better. People are fleeing the city to the suburbs (mainly north and east of Seattle or even to the other side of the Cascades). The city needs better leadership to address chronic homelessness, crime, and drug use. Seems like they've had the funds, just don't get anything done effectively. Totally agree that housing affordability is a real challenge there. It's grown too fast for the infrastructure to catch up.
Arainach 5y ago
What is your definition of "reasonable house"? Plenty of 1900-2200 square foot houses are selling in neighborhoods like Maple Leaf, Greenwood, etc. for just over $1M. If you want something bigger/newer, of course you have to go to the Eastside, but even there Citations: 2200 square feet, sold for $1M: https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/516-NE-91st-St-98115/home/109877 https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/516-NE-91st-St-98115/home/... 2340 square feet, large lot, $1M, sold a month ago: https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/9509-5th-Ave-NE-98115/home/110178 https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/9509-5th-Ave-NE-98115/home... 2000 square feet and a bit lot in Redmond, listed for $1M and will probably sell for 1.2 max: https://www.redfin.com/WA/Redmond/13626-179th-Ave-NE-98052/home/450881 https://www.redfin.com/WA/Redmond/13626-179th-Ave-NE-98052/h... These aren't cherry-picked, the listings are full of them.
- echelon 5y ago
  Why do people put up with these tiny homes in cramped, expensive cities? There are lots of inexpensive cities with incredible housing inventory. Cities that are surrounded by culture, cuisine, and an endless assortment of things to do. Big city prices are driven by offices. You're going to be working remotely anyway. Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Austin, Chattanooga, Savannah. You can draw a $300-500k salary living in these places, pay a low mortgage, and buy a second or third home for travel / rent.
  - Arainach 5y ago
    >Why do people put up with these tiny homes in cramped, expensive cities? In what universe is 2000 square feet tiny? Most of America - to say nothing of the rest of the world - makes do with far less. Sure, if you have 5-7 people living under one roof, more might be appreciated, but especially for 2-4 people it's tons of space. If you want more space, a city isn't the place for you.
    - mrtranscendence 5y ago
      > In what universe is 2000 square feet tiny? My fiancee and I live in a house that's ... I forget how big, something like 2200sqft of finished space. We basically ignore probably 40% of the house. If we didn't have animals (rabbits take up one room) it'd be even more than that.
throwaway6734 5y ago
Have you considered moving?
analyte123 5y ago
Median household income in the US is about $67k, where many of the households include two or more income earners. The homeownership rate for millennials though lower is still over 40%. How are they making it work, indeed. They just live in different places, places that we don't think are good enough. Maybe this is a prison that we have built for ourselves. I think I'm smart for seeing through Cartier ads and other luxury marketing tactics, but I think I've been sold on an idea just as unattainable.
- antisthenes 5y ago
  The answer is right on the surface, but not usually spoken about very openly: Intergenerational wealth transfer. Every single millennial home-owner that I know (myself included) received a very generous gift from their parents, or, in some cases, other surviving relatives (usually older than them). The average gift size was approximately the size of the down-payment. > They just live in different places, places that we don't think are good enough. Young people generally live approximately where their parents live, regardless of what people think about that place. NYT found the average distance from parents that people live at, is approximately 18 miles. The reasons, again, should be fairly obvious.
makeitrain 5y ago
I don't think managers intend to burn people out, they would rather have efficient, productive workers. Good workers can get overwhelmed and not get time to focus on tasks or not enough support to be successful. To sustain a high productivity environment, there needs to be clear communication and a good relationship between managers and staff. It took me a long time to learn about managing up, and it's still hard sometimes. We need to be able to say what we can and can't do, be trusted that we are still working hard, and set reasonable expectations that can be met reliably. If I'm doing my best and my manager acts like a coach, we can grow together quickly. In hindsight, I could have fixed jobs and relationships I bailed from by asserting my intent, desires, and boundaries more clearly. I was in fear of looking bad if I said no, so I worked harder until I burned out. If you can fix things and find balance, take a shot. If they retaliate, you're in a bad relationship with someone who is not receptive to your needs and you need to move on. I quit my last gig because I couldn't get the changes I needed. There are many more places to work, I may as well move on till I find a happy place. For now, I landed a consulting gig, helping a small agency improve team dynamics and build the company they want to work for. I'd like to expand into technical training, mentoring, and find more clients. I think this industry has potential for awesome careers, and most of the struggles we feel comes from resolvable problems. Fixing these things would lead to higher productivity and happiness.
mcphage 5y ago
> even after all this work and money I can’t comfortably buy a house - then where does this leave the majority of this country? Most of the country isn't trying to buy a house in San Francisco—they're living in much more affordable places. Some problems are universal, but others are limited to a few small locations—or at least, considerably worse there than others.
Schiendelman 5y ago
I’ve lived in Seattle for 30 years, and I work in tech. - Houses are cheap compared to other metros related to comp. You can get something great for 700-800k that would be 1.5m in the valley. - You are working way too much. You can certainly work 40 hours or less for whatever comp you’re getting now. This takes work - learning to set boundaries, learning how to pick a team.
tryitnow 5y ago
Well, the majority of the country doesn't live in a place where starter homes cost more than $1M, so that changes things pretty dramatically. Why don't you move?
spicyusername 5y ago
Living in Seattle is a huge handicap. There are so many other places in the United States to live where you can buy a 1,5000-2,000sqft starter home within a 10-30 minute commute for $300-$600k (recent home inflation included). If you have tech skills, get a remote job (or a local one and make a little less), pick any metro area with 1-3 million metro population and move yourself somewhere where you can live an affordable life.
tzs 5y ago
If you can arrange so that you don't have to be in the office daily and/or have flexible enough hours so you can commute outside of rush hour it might be worthwhile to take a look on the other side of Puget Sound. Housing in Kitsap County is a lot more affordable than in King County, and ferry commuting is fine as long as you can do it at times when there is not massive contention for spots. If your office is either within walking distance of the Seattle ferry terminal or there are good public transit options between the terminal and your office, so that you don't need to take your car on the ferry I don't think ferry contention is an issue. I believe there are park and ride lots near the ferry terminals on the Kitsap side, but I don't know if they fill up.
caladin 5y ago
> I’ll start off by saying that I work 60 hours a week, at least. My stress and anxiety levels are manageable now, but only because I found ways of managing them. They’re not reasonable though and most importantly, they’re not sustainable. Would you care to share what kinds of things specifically cause you stress and anxiety? No problem if you don't feel comfortable to do so, I am just really curious what kinds of stressors people such as yourself are experiencing.

lowbloodsugar 5y ago

>"I don’t have money concerns that my parents had." vs >"can’t even afford a house" Only one of these statements can be true. Would you have money concerns if you did buy a house that is as good as your parents? i.e. if your housing costs were $10k/mo, $20k/mo or more?

cafard 5y ago

Neighbors' son and daughter-in-law are moving from the Washington, DC, suburbs to Raleigh, North Carolina. A four-bedroom house there in a good development costs maybe a third of what his parents' house would sell for in a good (but not most expensive) neighborhood of Washington.

t-writescode 5y ago

Honestly, if you're working 60 hours a week, and not by choice, it's time to start considering other positions. I don't work over 40 hours a week most weeks, and still make a reasonable salary. Admittedly, I'm not 1.5mm home rich; but, when rent is 2-3k, I don't find much value, myself, in buying a house or condo for more than like 500k, so I'm sitting and waiting, for now.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

huachimingo 5y ago

In modern life,you have a house as a service™. Jokes aside, why the prices are so high in some countries?

beaconstudios 5y ago
Buy to let, property speculation, property as investment. Basically, houses are being used to serve profiteering much moreso than actually housing people affordably.
- zip1234 5y ago
  This is not the reason. The reason is a supply shortage caused by bad policy that restricts building. This might have some tiny impact on it, but is not the root cause. In Vancouver they did a tax on property speculation. Prices continue to rise because demand > supply and Vancouver has the same dumb policies as in the US.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    That can also be true, but let me point to this: https://openhousing.ca/2020/12/30/vancouver-empty-homes-crossed-30000-mark-this-year/ https://openhousing.ca/2020/12/30/vancouver-empty-homes-cros... That's a lot of un-lived-in houses.
- jl2718 5y ago
  Mostly government loan programs and tax breaks. Also, because it’s a non-custodial physical asset, countries that allow foreign ownership get a lot of real estate investment from money laundered out of more financially-repressive countries.
crowbahr 5y ago
Because building housing is effectively illegal in much of the US. Single family zoning, NIMBYism, moral panics over public transit, suburbanism... the list goes on and on. Building duplexes is a start but Seattle should look a lot more like Brooklyn than like Idaho Falls: 6 story apartment buildings everywhere. Density. Public transit galore with very restricted parking. Only then would housing prices be reasonable.

FredPret 5y ago

Remote work will simultaneously be our salvation, and the downfall of overpriced lawless dumps all over the world

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Anecdotally, most of the people I know who moved into remote jobs took the opportunity to move straight into the most expensive, most trendy areas. I know it's the exact opposite of what everyone was told would happen, but it turns a lot of places are expensive because people want to live there. Letting everyone cut physical ties to their jobs means everyone who wants to live there can now rush in and do it.
- N1H1L 5y ago
  Yep. Which is why Boise, ID is the most expensive real estate market in the country. Remote work is coming with its own issues, rather than being the cure-all HN thinks. In many places, such as East TN (Knoxville) remote workers are moving in with CA salaries. HN thinks that someone remote working from Knoxville, TN should be paid Bay Area salaries. However, Bay Area salaries are high for a reason. There are many Knoxville companies that can't compete with those salaries, which is why they set up Knoxville offices in the first place. But now their employees are suddenly priced out - and no one is happy about it.
  - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
    That's the thing. I make a bay area salary working for an east coast tech company. If silicon valley thinks they can pay less they are shooting themselves in the foot and talent will leave. They seriously want to cut salaries in this inflationary market? Lol.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    And so, in a wave, money and talent will spread across the globe, from SF to Knoxville and then to the third world

jrochkind1 5y ago

So this all sucks, and you're in a rough situation, and I sympathasize, and I'm not trying to tell you not to complain or that it's under your control. I think you wrote that well in a way that is aware of a lot of what's going on and your position. BUT. "where does this leave the majority of this country?" -- well, the majority of the country does not have as crazy a real estate market as Seattle, as far as paying ~$1.5 mil for a dump where you're basically just paying for the land. That is not most of the country. So... have you considered moving elsewhere? Even if you take a salary drop, you can probably wind up ahead overall with cost of living, especially if buying a home is a main goal you have. Of course, you won't get to live in Seattle. Seattle is awfully nice, it's true. But maybe you can afford a nice home and without working 60 hour weeks either. But as far as "where does this leave the majority of this country" -- definitely not in the insane Seattle or San Francisco (or other "hot" cities with tech money) real estate market, is where. Where I live (on the east coast even, but in a disinvested non-top-tier city) you can easily get a perfectly liveable no-repairs-needed if modest-sized ~1300 sq ft townhome for $200K, or easily a nice detached larger home in a "good" neighborhood for $500K. which I almost don't want to talk about, becuase if the tech money comes here, maybe that won't last. But there's plenty of the country that's not on the coasts and is not Austin or Boulder or something, that is like this or even cheaper. (And, as we both know, there are also plenty of people in even these cities who don't make nearly as much as you or I, and have trouble affording a home in them too!)

derekp7 5y ago
To add on to this, point a real estate app (Zillow, etc) to Racine Wisconsin. The east side is fairly nice. Also, look at north-eastern Illinois, starting in a radius about 40 miles or so outside of Chicago. The grate thing about that area is there is a lot of open farm land, and pieces get converted to housing development periodically whenever the market can support it. So that means many areas have 1500 sqft on 1/4 acre homes in the $200K range (or $100k if you want to put some work into fixing it up). And everything is "close enough" to a major city, and there is enough of the city that expands out in the surrounding areas (a number of large employers aren't downtown, although some have been migrating back to the city to attract the employee demographic that prefers the city life).

twofornone 5y ago

I can relate to your modest living. Time to leave seattle. Not all privilege is financial, we are generally fortunate (assuming you are a programmer) to be able to work remote, especially with the post covid market. There are still places in the country where housing is affordable that aren't in the middle of nowhere. This anxiety over housing seems to be primarily limited to select cities.

burntoutfire 5y ago

Places like SV or Seattle or London are places you go to and make money in (and then leave), not places to settle in and stay forever. So, for now, make as much money for as long as you can, then relocate to some place where houses cost a fraction of your net worth and start working remotely from there. Alternatively, if you can stomach your job for 10+ years and really hate renting, get a mortgage for a good house in Seattle, pay it off while living in it, then move anywhere else and just life off renting the house + some cushy remote, possibly part-time, job. Really, most people in the world can only dream of being in your position.

notsureaboutpg 5y ago
>Places like SV or Seattle or London are places you go to and make money in (and then leave) AND THEN LEAVE is the part most people forget. Switch to a remote company (yes, take a pay cut if you have to), use your millions to buy a $500k home (essentially a mansion) in any mid-tier city (Indianapolis, Houston, Dallas, Cleveland, Oklahoma City, etc.) and use the savings as a nice little investment / nest egg, you can have more kids if you want, or just enjoy being rich.
alexchantavy 5y ago
Your username is very fitting for this comment haha: I'm assuming the 'fire' part of it means FI/RE?
- burntoutfire 5y ago
  Yup, that's it.
Talanes 5y ago
That's not a sustainable model for a population though. That works for the average SV type, but the legion of service workers that support that population aren't making enough money for the (and leave) portion. If you're only barely making it here, where do you get the resources to plan a move?
- 5y ago

silicon2401 5y ago

> even after all this work and money I can’t comfortably buy a house You can, just not in Seattle. Just like you probably couldn't comfortably buy a penthouse in NYC or a wooded estate in London. There are countless places you can afford to buy a house

Schiendelman 5y ago
They can buy a house in Seattle. Their numbers are weird, like they’re looking for something perfect instead of something reasonable.

subsubzero 5y ago

I 100% agree with you, I left another lawless dump in the sfbay area and am glad I did. Me and my spouse are both in higher level tech positions and we were not getting ahead financially. Taxes were sky high, our 100 year old house that needed alot of work was at the highest we could afford(cheapest house in the area), schools were terrible, packages were being stolen off of our porch. City services were non-existent, our quality of life was terrible. What is the point of working yourself into an early to grave to live like this? I made the move to be closer to family and although its not perfect its alot better than we had.

hereforphone 5y ago

I hope you can stay positive. You sound prudent. Are you really in a hurry to buy or can you wait for a crash? Are you tied to the lawless dump or can you move?

vb6sp6 5y ago
The crash isn't coming. And if it does those houses will be snapped up by wall st. They've already spent 77 billion in the last 6 months
- labster 5y ago
  Human persons owning land is a relic of the past. Eventually corporate persons will own it all, and we will all be renters.

nly 5y ago

You're not alone. I have the exact same thoughts here in London, England. Average house prices here are 10x median income. Me and my partner want to start a family, but on my sole income we'll be paying ~50% of my take-home pay in mortgage + property taxes. It's probably not worth her continuing to work (although it's her choice) if we have a kid, due to the cost of childcare. Belts will be extremely tight even though I'm well inside the top 1% income wise. That said, I still thank my lucky stars I am where I am, and can't imagine how someone on a median income feels about their prospects.

gambiting 5y ago
I know it sounds harsh, unreasonable even, but....just move out of London. I"m in the north east, just bought a 3 bed house with a garden and a double drive for £180k. My friends just moved up from London literally a month ago, bought a massive townhouse with 5 bedrooms/3 bathrooms on a major street for £300k. We're all tech workers, we all work remotely - why stay in London? Because it has nice restaurants and museums? I don't buy it. Not if you want to start a family, own a house, afford a nice car and still have some money left at the end of the day.
- nly 5y ago
  My career is in the types of companies typically only found in London. None of them hire remote workers, even now. My partners career requires her to work on-site in London. My family are in the South East. Besides all that, home ownership is really becoming a huge class and generational divide and house prices are rising faster outside London than within. It's only a matter of time before people in areas like you describe are priced out too.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    That's fair enough. One thing I'll say you might be very off the mark with the quarter of salary thing. Both me and my wife(also a programmer) make about 75% as much as those friends who just moved out of London. Yes, anecdotes, I know. But I'm pretty sure tech worker salaries aren't as bad up here as people make it out to be.

rozap 5y ago

That sounds miserable. Finding a sustainable employer imo is key to getting out of a situation that you recognize as subpar. I just left Seattle and moved to Olympia. Sold my Seattle house and got a lot more for my money this far out. My company is fully supporting remote into the future, and we've hired a lot of folks that don't live in Seattle. I won't name and shame, but Seattle has always had a number of hellish "startups" that are basically pump and dump schemes. They come and go. There are plenty of places that do offer sustainable employment, and I was lucky enough to land at one, so leaving the city was an option afforded to me by landing somewhere stable. Also fuck 60 hour weeks.

alasdair_ 5y ago

I ended up moving to Maple Valley. $1M will actually buy you a reasonable house here (assuming you don't need a large yard), it's very green and the schools are fantastic. I'm almost fully remote anyway so the occasional long commute to the office isn't much of an issue - if I had to be there in person every day it would be different as a rush-hour commute is almost an hour (it's 35 minutes normally) to downtown Seattle. Bellevue is closer of course. Almost every person in my neighborhood works in tech and most of them used to live in Seattle but got fed up with the prices and the size of homes available for any kind of non-insane price. Issaquah is another option at around $1.4M for a nice house. It also has great schools etc.

chiefalchemist 5y ago

> Most things that I might need, I can buy them without having to think too much or without putting a dent in my net worth. At 60 hrs per week there's no time to spend money.

88913527 5y ago

Your experience is the ethos of tang ping, or "lying down" movement. Sure, you can try, and even if you do your very best and end up in the top decile of society, you still are getting a run-down home at best in a selective metro area.

kortilla 5y ago

Move. The Seattle metro is a failed area for that dream. Everyone wanting to live in the same 5 cities doesn’t scale. Do what the people who moved to Seattle did 50 years ago. Move to some dumpy up and coming city.

ragnot 5y ago
Got any suggestions?
- TeeMassive 5y ago
  Look at highway construction projects and towns nearby.
  - gknoy 5y ago
    Can you elaborate on why this is a good metric? It sounds plausible, but I don't understand why.
    - TeeMassive 5y ago
      Highways are built not to reduce traffic (it only does so very temporarily), but to encourage and support current and future economic growth.
- vb6sp6 5y ago
  Cape Coral, FL Chattanooga, TN Birmingham, AL Sioux Falls, SD Fort Wayne, IN San Antonio, TX you can find 4-5 bed room houses for < 300k in some of these areas
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    ... And the local lawmaker is trying to get Roe v. Wade overturned at the same time as the 2020 election! Seriously, there's a reason properties are cheap over there.

sleepysysadmin 5y ago

>I’ll start off by saying that I work 60 hours a week, at least. Too much, even if you want to work that much. Do 40 for your primary and then 20 where you are your own boss. >Based on the neighborhood I live in and my compensation, I am extremely privileged. I don’t have money concerns that my parents had. Most things that I might need, I can buy them without having to think too much or without putting a dent in my net worth. HN is very likely >90% part of the zoom class. Though you it might not be zoom but rather whatever flavour, teams, etc. Welcome to being rich. You got there because of whatever skillset you have learnt. Good for you. >But Seattle has become a lawless dump. The east side has started homes for $1.4MM where the inspection report shows you that you’re basically just paying for the land. Welcome to high energy costs fueling inflation and pushing high energy things like homes so expensively. >If I have to be a renter my whole damn life and can’t even afford a house, what is the god damn point? Yeah I get paid very well, but I am a pawn of people who earn significantly more. You're looking at it the wrong way. What is your investment strategy? Rent vs own calculators certainly exist. Maybe you're out of real estate because you predict a crash? If you expect they continue rising. Then buying is the way to go.

autokad 5y ago
housing is not stocks, thus you cant think like a house is a stock. They are a leveraged investment that lacks the price discovery and liquidity stocks provide. imagine a 1m$ house. you have to put 200k$ down into a single house (no diversification). A 10% decline means a 50% decline on that 200k. selling it takes days to months with usually at least 6% fees. So this thing is highly illiquid. so its not like stocks where you can say 'well just buy and hold'. given that they dislike Seattle, Seattle is as bubbly as ever, there is a new condo in construction on every other block, and things like the mayor saying 'we are not going to enforce the law in favor of safety towards the protestors', purchasing a home in Seattle is a scary idea. Also another issue with Seattle its not like you can buy and rent out. a typical home that costs 3500$/month to own will only rent for max 2500$. so you have to be in something thats 1k$/month cash flow negative. even if you are networth positive, that may be unsustainable for the individual
- 5y ago

wrath224 5y ago

My wife is from Tokyo. I feel this so much. I'm very grateful, we moved to the US during the start of the pandemic (a two year process in itself). I'm very grateful to work in this industry and work hard for the success of my company and team members. I moved to a small town near where I grew up. I can buy a house but we want, get japanese food, and a have a walk-able city. Safe place for kids too. Most people like these things. There are few places like this in the USA and those that have it are priced at an incredible level that is out of reach for us. I'm applying for a return Tokyo where I can afford a home in a great place near the city at a reasonable price, get great food and still do work I care about. I'm sure I'm not alone in this feeling.

mrkentutbabi 5y ago
Hello, are you me?
- wrath224 5y ago
  haha I'm sure there are dozens of us! Dozens!

floxy 5y ago

Take your down-payment, use it to buy a house free-and-clear with it somewhere less expensive, then work remotely? $199,900, 3,594 sq. ft. -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/110-E-1st-Ave-Flandreau-SD-57028/194616400_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/110-E-1st-Ave-Flandreau-S... $149,000, 2250 sq. ft. with an outdoor pool -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1643-Washington-Ave-Baxter-Springs-KS-66713/77161149_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1643-Washington-Ave-Baxte... $192,500, 3,017 sq. ft. -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/906-7th-Ave-S-Moorhead-MN-56560/89255327_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/906-7th-Ave-S-Moorhead-MN... $199,500, 2,799 sq. ft. -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/906-5th-Ave-NE-Devils-Lake-ND-58301/120647832_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/906-5th-Ave-NE-Devils-Lak... $174,900, 2,449 sq. ft. -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/504-W-3rd-St-Washburn-WI-54891/104928122_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/504-W-3rd-St-Washburn-WI-...

outside1234 5y ago
Too expensive for what you get
- willcipriano 5y ago
  200k is too much for a six bedroom house?
  - outside1234 5y ago
    Yes - because then you have to live in North Dakota. There is a reason these places are cheap. It is partly because it would mean living in North Dakota.
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      If that were true, houses in SF would be the cheapest in the nation.
      - outside1234 5y ago

beebmam 5y ago

Change your job. Live in Tacoma. Life's good.

tjr225 5y ago
Shhhh

pieterhg 5y ago

What stops you from moving somewhere more affordable?

autokad 5y ago
probably same reason as me. I hate Seattle, but I have to live here for employment. many employers dont give flexibility, and I am not in a position to work at an employer that both pays me well and allows me to live where I want.

wonderwonder 5y ago

You live in the golden age of remote work. Ask your current company if you can go remote or find a job that will let you, there are a huge number of them currently and so many of them are actively hiring. Get a well paying job and go live somewhere affordable. After stating this please know I am not trying to make light of your situation. I know there are a million factors that can prevent someone from moving, elderly parents, children with established friends, and a million others. Just saying that there are options out there. I would move to Bali if I could, but responsibilities are what they are. 60 hours a week though is not sustainable, whether you get a remote job or not, I highly encourage you to find a job where the workload is manageable. I was in the same boat as you and the long hours were pretty much killing me. One day I just decided to get a new job, now I work 40 hours a week, make more money, the job is remote and if I am forced to work OT I get paid overtime. Life is short friend, make decisions that will maximize your joy. Wish you the best.

api 5y ago

There's a simple solution to the house price issue: leave Seattle. There are many cities and towns across America with reasonable real estate, good communities, and good schools. In terms of local political zeitgeist you can easily take your pick as all kinds of tendencies are available.

tjr225 5y ago
Maybe but they don't have mountains, fjords, ocean and freshwater beaches, world class job markets(I know, I know; remote), and mild weather year round. For some such as myself the choice is anything but simple. In fact I left Seattle primarily for this very reason and one cheap house bought and sold in the midwest and a year later I found myself back.

whack 5y ago

> Based on the neighborhood I live in and my compensation, I am extremely privileged. I don’t have money concerns that my parents had. Most things that I might need, I can buy them without having to think too much or without putting a dent in my net worth. > If I have to be a renter my whole damn life and can’t even afford a house, what is the god damn point? People seem to have been taken in by the societal conditioning that you need to buy a house. Housing and shelter is a basic human need. Owning a house is not. As you yourself mentioned, you are extremely privileged and can afford most things you want without having to think twice. So why stress yourself out over piece of paper. I too live in one of the highest-COL places in America. And I'm paying $3k/month in rent for a wonderful 4-bedroom townhouse in a great neighborhood. I've done the math, and I financially come out ahead by paying $3k/month in rent and investing the remainder in worldwide index funds - a strategy which made me a millionaire in my 30s. I spend an hour commuting into the city via public transit, but that's no problem. I include this time as part of my working hours, and specifically chose my home for its accessibility to public transit. You mentioned that you're avoiding lifestyle creep. But your biggest lifestyle creep is your expectation of owning a family-sized home in a prime urban neighborhood. Let go of this societal brainwashing and you'll find yourself far happier.

TeeMassive 5y ago
Raising kids in an apartment is less than ideal.
Clubber 5y ago
Renting is throwing away money. I understand people do it when they only plan on living in a place for a brief period of time, but you'd still be better off buying a house, then selling after a few years in most time spans. There is risk though, but I doubt the risk would ever equal $3000 a month loss you are currently taking. For example, if you bought a house, it would have to lose $72K value in 2 years or $144K in 4 years (minus inflation, taxes, maintenance) to break even with paying $3000/month rent. However, if your house appreciates as most do in highly industrialized areas, you basically get paid to live there.
- 5y ago

dfxm12 5y ago

I’ll start off by saying that I work 60 hours a week, at least. My stress and anxiety levels are manageable now, but only because I found ways of managing them. They’re not reasonable though and most importantly, they’re not sustainable. I'm in this boat. I told my manager, talked about my pay & how it doesn't match my responsibilities. I talked about how I'm OK with a little crunch, but crunch 52 weeks a year is not crunch, it's just taking advantage. He said he's aware of the situation and that everyone's in the same boat, as if that justifies it somehow. He said wait to ask for higher pay. I feel like I'm being jerked around. I hear this from you & I hear the same from some of my other friends in my field, too, so I doubt the grass is greener anywhere else, and leaving won't have much effect. I liked my job in the past. I think I would like it again if my workload was more reasonable. The best I can do is just constantly try to set expectations that, no, I won't be putting in any more additional extra effort.

dougmwne 5y ago
Go get an offer, then ask for a counteroffer now. You are absolutely being jerked around.
- mrtranscendence 5y ago
  Yep. A few months ago I bagged myself a 10% raise immediately after asking for a counteroffer. Sometimes it's the only way.
Schiendelman 5y ago
The grass is much greener. There are lots of companies with reasonable hours now. Start asking for help. Message people (like me!) and we’ll refer you.
wombat-man 5y ago
lol, "wait to ask for higher pay" See if you can get more money or even just better work life balance elsewhere if you're not happy. These designated promotion/raise times are the biggest load of BS. "oh sorry, we'd love to give you a raise but those happen in 6 months, so maybe then?"

zippergz 5y ago

If you're defining the East Side as only Bellevue and Sammamish, maybe... But I just did a search in Bothell and there are a number of decent-looking houses for under $1M. Yeah, it's absolutely crazy compared to what it was even a few years ago, and I'm not going to argue that the values should be anywhere near as high as they are. But if you actually want to buy (rather than just vent, which is valid), you don't have to broaden your search that much to find much better options.

nostromo 5y ago

People get hung up on the price of homes when really they should be looking at the monthly cost of the mortgage. A $1m home is going to cost you $3,500 a month right now for the mortgage. That's very affordable for a lot of people in tech, especially couples.

mrkentutbabi 5y ago
Umm...30 year mortgage? Some people (like me) don't want a 30 year mortgage. Too much risk. I want 10 years top.
- thrtythreeforty 5y ago
  Why do you say a 30 year mortgage carries more risk (as a borrower) than a 10 year? You can always treat the 30 year as a 10 year (by throwing more money at the principle) but you can't do the reverse.
  - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
    30 years is 60% of your career and there's no evidence that the gravy train for software developers is going to last that long or from 2021 or that any particular individual will remain employable 30 years into their career (yes, many do but many also don't if the anecdotes on HN are to be believed).
  - davidgay 5y ago
    You do get lower interest rates on shorter-term mortgages, though.
- wrath224 5y ago
  This is exactly my thought process. If I have to pay a mortgage I know I have to work a much longer to pay off the house. This means I have zero control over what dictates my daily actions in life. Having a mortgage means I’m not free to do whatever I wish; focus on family, start a company, work on passions. The cost of houses/homes are just too high. I don’t want all of my net worth to be in a house either. It’s JUST a house.

rednerrus 5y ago

By the end of next year prices will be back down to something reasonable.

whateveracct 5y ago

Last year, my Seattle lease was up. I saw the same thing with houses - I instead found a place in Tacoma for substantially less and it was substantially nicer. And it's super easy to go to Seattle and enjoy anything in the city whenever I wish. I'm also formerly a Seattle Amazon office worker. After a few years and promotions, I started working remotely for Bay Area companies (the short flight makes me appealing) for good pay for years now. But I still love living in WA. Sounds like you should consider leveraging your prestigious Seattle tech pedigree into a remote position. If you really work 60h now, your effective hourly wage will skyrocket even if you get paid less by nature of going down to sub-40h due to remote work. And it'll still be plenty of money for Western WA.

bgibbons 5y ago

Lived in Seattle for a decade before relocating to Utah 2.5 years ago. Growing up in central WA we visited Seattle often when I was a teenager in the 90's. It was a pleasant, beautiful place - many areas around Seattle still are (love the outdoors there). A lot has changed over the past 10-15 years and not for the better. People are fleeing the city to the suburbs (mainly north and east of Seattle or even to the other side of the Cascades). The city needs better leadership to address chronic homelessness, crime, and drug use. Seems like they've had the funds, just don't get anything done effectively. Totally agree that housing affordability is a real challenge there. It's grown too fast for the infrastructure to catch up.

Arainach 5y ago

What is your definition of "reasonable house"? Plenty of 1900-2200 square foot houses are selling in neighborhoods like Maple Leaf, Greenwood, etc. for just over $1M. If you want something bigger/newer, of course you have to go to the Eastside, but even there Citations: 2200 square feet, sold for $1M: https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/516-NE-91st-St-98115/home/109877 https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/516-NE-91st-St-98115/home/... 2340 square feet, large lot, $1M, sold a month ago: https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/9509-5th-Ave-NE-98115/home/110178 https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/9509-5th-Ave-NE-98115/home... 2000 square feet and a bit lot in Redmond, listed for $1M and will probably sell for 1.2 max: https://www.redfin.com/WA/Redmond/13626-179th-Ave-NE-98052/home/450881 https://www.redfin.com/WA/Redmond/13626-179th-Ave-NE-98052/h... These aren't cherry-picked, the listings are full of them.

echelon 5y ago
Why do people put up with these tiny homes in cramped, expensive cities? There are lots of inexpensive cities with incredible housing inventory. Cities that are surrounded by culture, cuisine, and an endless assortment of things to do. Big city prices are driven by offices. You're going to be working remotely anyway. Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Austin, Chattanooga, Savannah. You can draw a $300-500k salary living in these places, pay a low mortgage, and buy a second or third home for travel / rent.
- Arainach 5y ago
  >Why do people put up with these tiny homes in cramped, expensive cities? In what universe is 2000 square feet tiny? Most of America - to say nothing of the rest of the world - makes do with far less. Sure, if you have 5-7 people living under one roof, more might be appreciated, but especially for 2-4 people it's tons of space. If you want more space, a city isn't the place for you.
  - mrtranscendence 5y ago
    > In what universe is 2000 square feet tiny? My fiancee and I live in a house that's ... I forget how big, something like 2200sqft of finished space. We basically ignore probably 40% of the house. If we didn't have animals (rabbits take up one room) it'd be even more than that.

throwaway6734 5y ago

Have you considered moving?

analyte123 5y ago

Median household income in the US is about $67k, where many of the households include two or more income earners. The homeownership rate for millennials though lower is still over 40%. How are they making it work, indeed. They just live in different places, places that we don't think are good enough. Maybe this is a prison that we have built for ourselves. I think I'm smart for seeing through Cartier ads and other luxury marketing tactics, but I think I've been sold on an idea just as unattainable.

antisthenes 5y ago
The answer is right on the surface, but not usually spoken about very openly: Intergenerational wealth transfer. Every single millennial home-owner that I know (myself included) received a very generous gift from their parents, or, in some cases, other surviving relatives (usually older than them). The average gift size was approximately the size of the down-payment. > They just live in different places, places that we don't think are good enough. Young people generally live approximately where their parents live, regardless of what people think about that place. NYT found the average distance from parents that people live at, is approximately 18 miles. The reasons, again, should be fairly obvious.

makeitrain 5y ago

I don't think managers intend to burn people out, they would rather have efficient, productive workers. Good workers can get overwhelmed and not get time to focus on tasks or not enough support to be successful. To sustain a high productivity environment, there needs to be clear communication and a good relationship between managers and staff. It took me a long time to learn about managing up, and it's still hard sometimes. We need to be able to say what we can and can't do, be trusted that we are still working hard, and set reasonable expectations that can be met reliably. If I'm doing my best and my manager acts like a coach, we can grow together quickly. In hindsight, I could have fixed jobs and relationships I bailed from by asserting my intent, desires, and boundaries more clearly. I was in fear of looking bad if I said no, so I worked harder until I burned out. If you can fix things and find balance, take a shot. If they retaliate, you're in a bad relationship with someone who is not receptive to your needs and you need to move on. I quit my last gig because I couldn't get the changes I needed. There are many more places to work, I may as well move on till I find a happy place. For now, I landed a consulting gig, helping a small agency improve team dynamics and build the company they want to work for. I'd like to expand into technical training, mentoring, and find more clients. I think this industry has potential for awesome careers, and most of the struggles we feel comes from resolvable problems. Fixing these things would lead to higher productivity and happiness.

mcphage 5y ago

> even after all this work and money I can’t comfortably buy a house - then where does this leave the majority of this country? Most of the country isn't trying to buy a house in San Francisco—they're living in much more affordable places. Some problems are universal, but others are limited to a few small locations—or at least, considerably worse there than others.

Schiendelman 5y ago

I’ve lived in Seattle for 30 years, and I work in tech. - Houses are cheap compared to other metros related to comp. You can get something great for 700-800k that would be 1.5m in the valley. - You are working way too much. You can certainly work 40 hours or less for whatever comp you’re getting now. This takes work - learning to set boundaries, learning how to pick a team.

tryitnow 5y ago

Well, the majority of the country doesn't live in a place where starter homes cost more than $1M, so that changes things pretty dramatically. Why don't you move?

spicyusername 5y ago

Living in Seattle is a huge handicap. There are so many other places in the United States to live where you can buy a 1,5000-2,000sqft starter home within a 10-30 minute commute for $300-$600k (recent home inflation included). If you have tech skills, get a remote job (or a local one and make a little less), pick any metro area with 1-3 million metro population and move yourself somewhere where you can live an affordable life.

tzs 5y ago

If you can arrange so that you don't have to be in the office daily and/or have flexible enough hours so you can commute outside of rush hour it might be worthwhile to take a look on the other side of Puget Sound. Housing in Kitsap County is a lot more affordable than in King County, and ferry commuting is fine as long as you can do it at times when there is not massive contention for spots. If your office is either within walking distance of the Seattle ferry terminal or there are good public transit options between the terminal and your office, so that you don't need to take your car on the ferry I don't think ferry contention is an issue. I believe there are park and ride lots near the ferry terminals on the Kitsap side, but I don't know if they fill up.

caladin 5y ago

> I’ll start off by saying that I work 60 hours a week, at least. My stress and anxiety levels are manageable now, but only because I found ways of managing them. They’re not reasonable though and most importantly, they’re not sustainable. Would you care to share what kinds of things specifically cause you stress and anxiety? No problem if you don't feel comfortable to do so, I am just really curious what kinds of stressors people such as yourself are experiencing.