7 ms·

6th to 10th place are interesting: 6 – Tailors 7 – Notaries 8 – Barbers 9 – Retailers 10 – Stonemasons More notaries than barbers, retailers and stonemaso

6th to 10th place are interesting: 6 – Tailors 7 – Notaries 8 – Barbers 9 – Retailers 10 – Stonemasons More notaries than barbers, retailers and stonemasons!

drcode 5y ago
Likely not too surprising, given that most people were illiterate. Probably they also helped with letter writing/reading?
- bluGill 5y ago
  I've seen arguments that most people were literate. Learning to read and write is not hard, and it is a useful skill. Of course literate was relative: before the printing press there wasn't much to read (book took months to copy by hand). You were reading and writing short notes. Spelling wasn't standardized so you phonetically spelled things and had to figure out what the other person meant. Good enough for letters, but nobody was writing books on anything since teaching in person was (or seemed to be) more efficient. I'm not a historian, but the above seems like a good argument. Does anyone have a real reference as to the truth?
  - LegitShady 5y ago
    It kind of seems like your job as someone making the claim to come up with a reference?
    - bluGill 5y ago
      I don't know how to do that.
  - catlikesshrimp 5y ago
    Learning to write is difficult. You need paper and pen, and free time, and some reference, and probably a teacher
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Paper is easy to make from bark. Charcoal pencils are easy to find (or make) in rhe common fire. Parents can teach their children.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - unionpivo 5y ago
        Paper was expensive before modern industry. Don't have reference at hand, but I remember it because I read it from few different sources.
        bluGill 5y ago
        Good paper was expensive. Bark paper is easy to make and works okay. You can also write on slates and other such things.
usrusr 5y ago
I suspect that the ranking is somewhat distorted by the data source: every person working in the general field of notary would be represented in those lists of taxed household heads, whereas in e.g. the field of stonemasonry this would only be true only for a few masters I think, but not for their apprentices or various other forms of low-level support. And I suspect that the wandering stonemasons traveling from project to project wouldn't appear there either. In short: I suspect that interpreting the source like that might be a tiny little bit like trying to derive the percentage of Americans working as plumbers by looking at what is listed at the NYSE.
errcorrectcode 5y ago
Barber-surgeons.
- nradov 5y ago
  Many barbers also did some dentistry.
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    I always want a shave and a blood letting after getting some rotten teeth pulled. It was a very convenient trade.
    - hammock 5y ago
      I'm guessing the medieval toothpulling would count as a good bloodletting as well.
      - errcorrectcode 5y ago
        It depended if you were a bleeder or not. My barber gave me some salted fish to pack in there, so it really didn't bleed all that much.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  For those who don't know: barbers were also surgeons and dentists until around the middle of the 18th century. Not only did they cut your hair they also pulled out your teeth and performed surgery on you.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    And where generally closer to our modern day MDs then real mediaval MDs. As those where theologists coming from christian universities where they received basically zero true medical training.
    - 5y ago
kashyapc 5y ago
On notaries (and related officials) in the middle ages, see this[1] painting by Pieter Bruegel from around 1615. Here Bruegel mocks the tax collectors that are bamboozling the farmers with paperwork. "The work was boldly socio-critical in its time."[2] [1] https://kunstberatung-zurich.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/brueghel-piet.jpg https://kunstberatung-zurich.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/... [2] https://kunstberatung-zurich.com/pieter-breughel-payment-of-the-tithe-early-1620s/ https://kunstberatung-zurich.com/pieter-breughel-payment-of-...
ralfd 5y ago
I guess people from villages/provinces would maybe travel quite far to the city to notarize something? But barbers would only cut the hair of the city population. What surprised me was the many shoemakers.
xyzzy21 5y ago
Notaries ~ Lawyers today. Barbers ~ Doctors today.
MilStdJunkie 5y ago
You've got to take into account that this is 15th C, after the first big wave of bubonic plague, which sent labor prices from "basically free" to "greater than the GDP of the entire continent". Whole new worlds of financial innovation were needed in this period, and not everyone was buying it. I suspect that this tax record itself was a relatively new project at the time, undertaken in part to control spiraling costs in a world without labor.

6th to 10th place are interesting: 6 – Tailors 7 – Notaries 8 – Barbers 9 – Retailers 10 – Stonemasons More notaries than barbers, retailers and stonemasons!

drcode 5y ago

Likely not too surprising, given that most people were illiterate. Probably they also helped with letter writing/reading?

bluGill 5y ago
I've seen arguments that most people were literate. Learning to read and write is not hard, and it is a useful skill. Of course literate was relative: before the printing press there wasn't much to read (book took months to copy by hand). You were reading and writing short notes. Spelling wasn't standardized so you phonetically spelled things and had to figure out what the other person meant. Good enough for letters, but nobody was writing books on anything since teaching in person was (or seemed to be) more efficient. I'm not a historian, but the above seems like a good argument. Does anyone have a real reference as to the truth?
- LegitShady 5y ago
  It kind of seems like your job as someone making the claim to come up with a reference?
  - bluGill 5y ago
    I don't know how to do that.
- catlikesshrimp 5y ago
  Learning to write is difficult. You need paper and pen, and free time, and some reference, and probably a teacher
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Paper is easy to make from bark. Charcoal pencils are easy to find (or make) in rhe common fire. Parents can teach their children.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - unionpivo 5y ago
      Paper was expensive before modern industry. Don't have reference at hand, but I remember it because I read it from few different sources.
      - bluGill 5y ago
        Good paper was expensive. Bark paper is easy to make and works okay. You can also write on slates and other such things.

usrusr 5y ago

I suspect that the ranking is somewhat distorted by the data source: every person working in the general field of notary would be represented in those lists of taxed household heads, whereas in e.g. the field of stonemasonry this would only be true only for a few masters I think, but not for their apprentices or various other forms of low-level support. And I suspect that the wandering stonemasons traveling from project to project wouldn't appear there either. In short: I suspect that interpreting the source like that might be a tiny little bit like trying to derive the percentage of Americans working as plumbers by looking at what is listed at the NYSE.

errcorrectcode 5y ago

Barber-surgeons.

nradov 5y ago
Many barbers also did some dentistry.
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  I always want a shave and a blood letting after getting some rotten teeth pulled. It was a very convenient trade.
  - hammock 5y ago
    I'm guessing the medieval toothpulling would count as a good bloodletting as well.
    - errcorrectcode 5y ago
      It depended if you were a bleeder or not. My barber gave me some salted fish to pack in there, so it really didn't bleed all that much.
Aerroon 5y ago
For those who don't know: barbers were also surgeons and dentists until around the middle of the 18th century. Not only did they cut your hair they also pulled out your teeth and performed surgery on you.
- hef19898 5y ago
  And where generally closer to our modern day MDs then real mediaval MDs. As those where theologists coming from christian universities where they received basically zero true medical training.
  - 5y ago

kashyapc 5y ago

On notaries (and related officials) in the middle ages, see this[1] painting by Pieter Bruegel from around 1615. Here Bruegel mocks the tax collectors that are bamboozling the farmers with paperwork. "The work was boldly socio-critical in its time."[2] [1] https://kunstberatung-zurich.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/brueghel-piet.jpg https://kunstberatung-zurich.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/... [2] https://kunstberatung-zurich.com/pieter-breughel-payment-of-the-tithe-early-1620s/ https://kunstberatung-zurich.com/pieter-breughel-payment-of-...

ralfd 5y ago

I guess people from villages/provinces would maybe travel quite far to the city to notarize something? But barbers would only cut the hair of the city population. What surprised me was the many shoemakers.

xyzzy21 5y ago

Notaries ~ Lawyers today. Barbers ~ Doctors today.

MilStdJunkie 5y ago

You've got to take into account that this is 15th C, after the first big wave of bubonic plague, which sent labor prices from "basically free" to "greater than the GDP of the entire continent". Whole new worlds of financial innovation were needed in this period, and not everyone was buying it. I suspect that this tax record itself was a relatively new project at the time, undertaken in part to control spiraling costs in a world without labor.