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Vegetable Oil for Lubricating Chainsaws (2008)
- robbrown451 5y agoUsing some Mazola on my chainsaw because I can't find or didn't buy proper oils sounds like a typical thing I'd do (that people will shame me for but I don't care) Admittedly my chainsaw is a small cheap electric one, but still. Unsurprising to me that it turns out it is ok to use what I have on hand.
- abakker 5y agoStihl makes soy oil based chain oil - you can get it at mcguckin in boulder, so it must be relatively available. I bought some to try it and its fine. Unlike other uses for lubrication - the relatively short life of chain oil (most is expelled quickly) means that oxidative drying isn't really an issue.
- herendin2 5y agoThey refer to 'thousands of gallons of chain-and-bar oil... carried into the forests' every year Is this quantity significant?
- xhkkffbf 5y agoOr does it matter that the petroleum came from the forests, the deserts and some underseas equivalents? Petroleum is a natural thing. There are no doubt problems with the refined versions of petroleum but natural oils have issues too. The right solution might still be to ban petroleum oils from this job. But it seems foolish to pretend they are any less natural than vegetable oils.
- sonofhans 5y agoIt’s true that literally everything on Earth is natural by definition, either naturally-occurring or produced by natural forces like erosion or beavers or humans. But that’s tautological, and not interesting. Refined petroleum does not occur naturally and is toxic to all life. Vegetable oils are produced by stepping on or chewing nuts or vegetables. There is no comparison.
- wyager 5y ago> Vegetable oils are produced by stepping on or chewing nuts or vegetables. Not really. Rapeseed/Canola oil in particular involves extensive use of solvents, bleaches, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfk2IXlZdbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfk2IXlZdbI
- User23 5y ago> Refined petroleum does not occur naturally and is toxic to all life. Not all life[1]. [1] https://iscsales.com/item/55-gallon-oil-eating-microbes-lfs-1/ https://iscsales.com/item/55-gallon-oil-eating-microbes-lfs-...
- userbinator 5y agoNot all petroleum either. I bet a lot of people here have a jar of refined petroleum they apply to their skin regularly.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- protastus 5y ago> Petroleum is a natural thing. Cyanide is also a natural thing. Is it compatible with complex life in this planet? No. Natural occurrence is not a sufficient measure for compatibility in an ecological context.
- sonofhans 5y agoBy “significant” I take you to mean, “causing enough harm to be noticeable.” I don’t know the answer to that. Consider that chainsaws are only one of many polluting tools that people use in forests, e.g., snowmobiles, generators, of course cars. There are many non-petroleum pollutants as well, like lead ammunition and trash. I believe it’s a useful practice to reduce harm from each of these as much as possible. That reduction might come from banning them outright to small changes like using vegetable oil as chainsaw lube. The opposite approach is requiring harm to be demonstrated by each of these small things in order to encourage or require change. This has gotten us roughly to where we are now, with much wilderness in the country despoiled by human practices. All of us are better served by being conservative in this context: by intentionally doing the least harmful things possible, and looking for ways to improve.
- seoaeu 5y agoA key piece of advice in performance optimization is to profile first. The same should apply to environmentalism. Some interventions have orders of magnitude more impact than others, and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise
- AlotOfReading 5y agoThis is one of those times when programming analogies don't work. Ecosystems are diabolically complex and nonlinear. A small perturbation might be okay one year and collapse everything the next, depending on a thousand other factors. It's good to try, but it would be a terrible policy to mandate.
- User23 5y agoIt occurs to me that large computer programs can also be diabolically complex and nonlinear. Changing a single byte of code can result in a huge change in process behavior. I generally disdain the temptation to use computer analogies for natural processes too, but in this case your objection isn’t strong.
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- ralusek 5y agoBeing pedantic, any quantity >= 2000 would be "thousands", so...maybe?
- sethammons 5y agoReminds me that I like the phrase "only a fraction of $x does $y." People seem to ignore 9/10 and 200/1 are fractions.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- thrower123 5y agoNo. You run maybe a pint of bar and chain oil through a big felling saw in an entire day of running it. More transmission and hydraulic fluid leaks from logging equipment constantly.
- nkurz 5y ago> You run maybe a pint of bar and chain oil through a big felling saw in an entire day of running it. Without getting into whether it's actually a significant pollutant compared to other sources, I think your estimate is considerably low. I'm usually worn out before I can cut for a whole day, but I've gone through more than 2 quarts in a day. And here's someone professional who says he goes through a gallon a day of bar and chain oil with a similarly sized saw (possibly because he's able to keep going longer): https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=46008.msg662305#msg662305 https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=46008.msg662...
- thrower123 5y agoI'd say your oiler needs adjusting.
- stopagephobia 5y agoThis does not jibe with my experiences or anybody I know's experiences, I think it needs more development. I've had friends who used vegetable oils then they dried out or worse turned rancid and gummed stuff up. Especially bad if a tool is left for a while, or in a hot place, though I guess this is not so much a problem in Europe. This doesn't seem like a significant enough problem to justify that anyway, "thousands of gallons" across a continent is not actually that much.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y agoIf you read the article it isn't just the thousands of gallons, it is also breathing petroleum aerosols, etc. These foresters seem to have good experiences with it- https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=90186.0 https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=90186.0
- dwighttk 5y agoHave any studies been done on breathing vegetable oil aerosols?
- stopagephobia 5y agoWe'll probably get some solid observational data, due to the rise of vaping, but that will take a few years.
- dylan604 5y agoWhat about all of the fast food fry cooks?
- userbinator 5y agoIf you look at history you'll find that animal and plant oils were used as lubricants for a long time, but were replaced by petroleum specifically because of those problems you noted.
- analog31 5y ago
- JohnJamesRambo 5y agoThis is absolutely fascinating. Never thought of using this. These are the kinds of stories I come to HN for.
- nradov 5y agoSome of my scuba diving friends go ice diving in Canadian lakes. They use chainsaws to cut access holes through the ice, and always lubricate those chainsaws with vegetable oil so as not to contaminate the water with petrochemicals.
- wyager 5y agoDidn't even know that was a thing! Will have to look into getting the cert.
- madaxe_again 5y agoI live way off grid, and we just use our own olive oil, on our electric chainsaws, powered by solar power. Apart from the actual hardware, it’s a neatly closed loop.
- svieira 5y ago> our own olive oil How long have you been off grid (or did the olive trees pre-date you)?
- madaxe_again 5y agoThe trees are mostly several centuries old - long abandoned when we arrived.
- dbavaria 5y agoI would think fish oil would be more appropriate for this usage.
- sowbug 5y agoMy paper shredder's user manual recommends* periodically shredding a paper with oil drizzled on it for lubrication. It says vegetable oil is fine. *At least, it did until I shredded it.
- dehrmann 5y agoThis surprises me; vegetable oil gets sticky as it oxidizes. I would have expected something like mineral oil.
- dubyah 5y agoI don't know about other manufacturers, but Fellowes brand shredder oil is just expensive canola oil.
- dtgriscom 5y agoConfirmed: check the MSDS sheet.
- Farfromthehood 5y agoI checked the MSDS years ago and commented on the Amazon listing for Fellows "shredder oil." It always helps to check the MSDS, for many reasons. :-)
- ahartmetz 5y agoSome vegetable oil oxidizes much faster than some other. Sunflower oil oxidizes rather quickly, olive oil I haven't noticed oxidizing yet.
- throwaway984393 5y agoAccording to this chart, Olive oil has 12 times more oxidative stability than Sunflower oil! Coconut oil has the highest oxidative stability due to its 92% saturated fat content: https://olivewellnessinstitute.org/resource/showdown-what-is-the-best-oil-for-cooking/ https://olivewellnessinstitute.org/resource/showdown-what-is...
- hahamrfunnyguy 5y agoI've been lubricating my chainsaw with vegetable oil because one of its uses is chunking up wood for my smoker.
- capekwasright 5y agoTangentially related: Boston Dynamics' BigDog, which utilizes hydraulic actuators, would constantly leak hydraulic fluid while operating, be it through normal weepage or catastrophic leaks (e.g. burst hoses). Initially, they used petroleum-based hydraulic fluid, but as they began to operate out in the woods etc, this proved to be untenable, so they eventually switched to using a vegetable-based hydraulic fluid that would biodegrade within a month. Bonus: when catastrophic hydraulic leaks inevitably occurred and sprayed hot hydraulic fluid over the hot exhaust, you would be rewarded with the lovely smell of a deep fryer!
- buildsjets 5y agoThe hydraulic autopilot steering system in my boat uses a biodegradable soy-based hydraulic fluid, and it’s at least 20 years old. Similar non-marine products are readily available on amazon. https://www.pocomarine.com/shop/garmin-tr-1-biosoy-hydraulic-oil/ https://www.pocomarine.com/shop/garmin-tr-1-biosoy-hydraulic...
- FredPret 5y agoThe more traditional kind of dog leaks all the time as well
- dtgriscom 5y ago... but they and their excretions are fully biodegradable.
- electric_mayhem 5y agoTangentially related, in the early 00’s in a datacenter belonging to a large multinational corporation, there was an IBM as/400 that frequently leaked puddles of yellow liquid. A puddle was found under it; the puddle was cleaned up. The puddle came back. Repeatedly. The data center management was perplexed. The internal as/400 professionals were stumped. IBM techs were called in. They assured the datacenter’s management that this couldn’t be coming from the hardware. The machines simply didn’t contain yellow fluid. No leaks in the ceiling, no overhead pipes, it wasn’t coming from the chassis, no other hardware exhibited this weirdness. Food and drink had never been permitted inside. But it was coming from somewhere, because no matter how many times they cleaned it up, another puddle appeared. When finally a camera was surreptitiously deployed to surveil the afflicted machine, it didn’t take long before the camera revealed one of the datacenter staff members was just walking up to it and urinating on it. No particular reason, just something he felt like doing.
- markdown 5y agoThe article talks about "canola based oils". Has anyone used just plain canola oil to do the job?
- lyjackal 5y agoI’ve been using only canola oil for my chainsaw for the last 3 years. No problems so far. I use it about every 2-4 months
- markdown 5y agoThanks
- Spooky23 5y agoDifferent varieties of rapeseed make different oils, but steam locomotives and piston aircraft used canola for lubrication. It works just fine for general lubrication. Other things or canola oil not intended for human consumption may be better for different applications.
- ranprieur 5y agoI used a chainsaw for several years, cut up some trees into cordwood, and used only plain canola oil the whole time. There were places on the saw that got a bit gummy, but functionally it worked fine.
- qbasic_forever 5y agoCould you engineer a chainsaw that doesn't need lubrication? Maybe a dynamic tensioner that pulls the chain taught instead of riding on a frame? Or what about rethinking the design entirely and using a long screw with cutting teeth all along it (no metal on metal moving parts)?
- meristohm 5y agoA Warhammer 40K vibro-blade?
- meristohm 5y agoEdit: or an oscillating multi-tool, though the manual for the one I have says it’s only for short jobs to reduce risk of overheating. Also, be careful of repetitive stress injury. There are some models that reduce vibration on the user end.
- dan_quixote 5y agoI’ve even seen vegetable oil used as cutting fluid on CNC mills. So it makes sense on a chain saw.
- whiterock 5y agoFunny to hear about a feature, which I was totally not aware of, of the law in Austria, where I live, in a statement by the United States of America.
- matthewmcg 5y agoWe have a pecan tree in our back yard. These are "self pruning" trees, meaning they occasionally drop heavy limbs. When a big one fell, a neighbor volunteered to slice it up with his chainsaw for us. He let us know he was using canola oil to lubricate the saw, as the wood was good for smoking.
- thrower123 5y agoI have never known a professional logger to use these biodegradable oils.
- jessaustin 5y agoLubricating a chain is one of the least demanding tasks we have for oil. Unlike in the crankcase of an engine or in the pumps of a hydraulic system, there is very little pressure or temperature involved. Unlike e.g. bicycles, chainsaws have oilers that constantly feed additional liquid onto the chain, so the lubricant doesn't even have to adhere that well. (The best "oil" for a bike chain is actually wax since it adheres very well and is less dirty than oil.) In green wood, the main thing that the oil is doing is keeping water out of the chain.
- BenjiWiebe 5y agoChainsaw chains actually do need fairly good lubrication. The chain can run ~60mph, snugly against the bar. Metal-on-metal.
- jessaustin 5y agoFor some definition of "snugly". It's really easy to tighten a chain so much that the saw won't run. Loosen it a bit, and the saw cuts fine yet it's easy to pull a bit of the chain out of the slot (the latter with the saw off). At least, that's the case for the cheap/old saws that I've used... Don't worry I'm not running any saw without bar oil. Or rather, used motor oil, since I have plenty of that.
- throwaway984393 5y agoApparently mechanical engineers learn about lubricants: how they're made, why they differ, what to use when. Greases, oils, and penetrating lubricants all are variations of the same thing: fats, soaps, additives. You figure out what your application is and how the lubricant needs to perform, then design your lubricant to purpose. (fwiw the market for lubricants is about $125B globally and grows every year) Also, really dumb fact: you can make gallons of your own sexual lubricant for pennies. Just mix a teaspoon of xantham gum with a pint of water (and if you want to preserve the whole batch, 10 drops of grapefruit seed extract). The stuff you buy in stores is about 100x more expensive and contains potentially-harmful additives.
- JasonFruit 5y agoThis is interesting, because I was just reading how unused vegetable oil is in common use for AK-47 rifles in Africa. (Nobody clarified if other rifles receive the same treatment.)
- ruined 5y agopopular brands are mineral oil, but any high temperature oil should work well. hoppes publishes MSDS info https://www.hoppes.com/hoppes-support/ho-sds.html https://www.hoppes.com/hoppes-support/ho-sds.html which is pretty vague on most products but indicates ignition temp of their "lubricating gun oil" is 410F so anything around that won't start a fire, at least. that aligns closely with popular frying oils. in general even modern ARs can be run totally dry for hundreds or thousands of rounds, until carbon fouling stops them. so it probably doesn't matter so much. worst thing that would happen is you'd get a gummy residue or a bit more carbon buildup. notably, lower quality gun oils already pose those problems. here's a couple of nerds trying it out with canola: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8nZWALQRgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8nZWALQRgM
- hagbard_c 5y agoI use nothing but vegetable oil in my saws and have been doing so for decades. When the frying oil becomes too dark I filter it through a paper drip coffee filter and store the result in the wood shed, to be used when harvesting and preparing the ~8m³ of firewood needed to heat the farm through the Swedish winter. It works fine in the cooler climate we have here, in really hot places you might want to add something to make it stick better. I hardly ever get a broken chain, the bearings don't wear excessively and I get to use them until the chisels have been filed to the last remaining mm.
- eucryphia 5y agoKomatsu builders of forest harvesting machines. https://www.komatsuforest.com.au/about/sustainability https://www.komatsuforest.com.au/about/sustainability HE GEN II Natura is a hydraulic oil that is both biodegradable and a certified environmentally friendly product, biodegrading by at least 60% within 28 days. The oil does not accumulate in plants and animals and does not spread in ecosystems. The oil has a synthetic base with largely bio-based and renewable content and exceeds the certification requirements. The oil has minimal toxicity, is non-toxic to aquatic life and has been checked for allergenic and environmentally hazardous substances. HE GEN II Natura is specially adapted for use in sensitive nature areas as it is based on synthetic esters and is certified compliant with the requirements for environmentally friendly hydraulic fluid. Compared to mineral-based hydraulic oils, HE GEN II Natura has less impact on the environment in the event of an accidental leak or spill. Komatsu SCO Natura environmentally friendly saw chain oil has vegetable and renewable content. The oil is biodegradable, non-bioaccumulative and does not spread in ecosystems. The product is also non-harmful to humans, animals and plants. This saw chain oil offers superior equipment lubrication and adheres well to the saw bar and saw chain, reducing wear and extending the equipment's service life. Moreover, oil consumption can be reduced by up to 50%. Komatsu saw chain oil is suitable for use in sensitive nature areas that risk harm from conventional mineral-based oils.
- shimonabi 5y agoYou can't even buy a non-vegetable chainsaw oil in my country. The only time I used such a thing was when I was a kid and I put regular machine oil into the chainsaw. My father never explained the difference between different oils to me. I will never forget the frown on the chainsaw repairman's face.
- aaron695 5y agoFor those who are not mentally ill and trusting what their chiropractor has told them about synthetic oils, why do we care? Plants grow around literal tar pits..... https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/nature-s-time-capsules-a-guide-to-the-world-s-pitch-lakes https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/nature-s-time-capsules... La Brea Pitch Lake on Google Maps - https://goo.gl/maps/MzuTgrGovebsWfxSA https://goo.gl/maps/MzuTgrGovebsWfxSA
- j_d_b 5y agoI recently topped off a chainsaw with motor oil and noticed that it flung everywhere. Chainsaw oil has some additives in it that allow the oil to be picked up by the chain at high speed but not flung off the chain. I wonder how this question would be addressed using vegetable oil.
- fuzzfactor 5y agoHere is one of the primary sources of these type petroleum-substitute materials: https://elmusa.com/products https://elmusa.com/products Largely resulting from milestones reached during projects like this: https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0214897-agriculture-based-industrial-lubricants.html https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0214897-ag...