10 ms·

If employers wish to give every single on-site worker their own individual independently ventilated office, I'm down for returning to the office. But that would

If employers wish to give every single on-site worker their own individual independently ventilated office, I'm down for returning to the office. But that would cost money. As would daily rapid antigen tests for everyone coming into the office that day. Open Office floor plans already were Petri dishes for infection before the pandemic. Now they are an incremental risk factor for premature death. Who needs that? The world has changed. People trying to return to the before times will be foiled by biology itself. But also I 100% support people opting into going back to the office with zero protection or any liability for their employers should something unfortunate happen. They should be forced to sign a big release indicating they understand the risks and that they accept it is all on them.

tdeck 5y ago
> But also I 100% support people opting into going back to the office with zero protection or any liability for their employers should something unfortunate happen There's a legitimate concern about people being coerced into "volunteering" to return to the office by their employer. Perhaps not most people at Google, but even there some employees will be in a situation where their manager can bully them into the office.
nradov 5y ago
All of that is pointless. You're inevitably going to be exposed to the virus many times throughout your life regardless of what your employer does. Whether you're exposed in the office or somewhere else hardly matters. Fortunately the vaccines and other treatments make the risk minimal. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
- sg47 5y ago
  I can choose to willingly not go into a closed space with 1000+ people. The risk of exposure is going to be higher in the office. I have no qualms with meeting my team for lunch or dinner or even a team offsite for a whole day once a month but the notion of coming into potential close contact with hundreds of people day to day is very scary.
  - varelse 5y ago
    The sorts that wish to require you to work in spaces like that are not worth working for under any circumstances. You can do better if you try, don't settle...
- datameta 5y ago
  In every argument for and against any covid related policy, the debate falls apart when the participants fail to realize people have different risk assessments. Age, co-morbidities or lack thereof, pre-existing risk-taking lifestyle or not, co-habitating with anyone else or not, and the list goes on.
  - varelse 5y ago
    Sure, but I'm betting that an everybody does what they want to to the point that it doesn't endanger anyone else isn't even good enough for some people who feel the need to control the behavior of others. What is this obsessive need to bring everyone back into the same poorly ventilated rooms? What business goal is served here other than literally making them look busy? Do you want to wear a mask for 7 to 12 hours a day on the job when you could be at home? But also for those who feel that doing so is better than working from home, more power to you. Just don't make me join your club. It's just not my thing.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Also irrelevant. Think it through over the long term. Since the virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated anyone who lives outside of a sterile bubble will occasionally be exposed regardless of the protective measures they take. Just like with the other endemic coronaviruses such as HCoV-OC43. Differences in personal risk assessment won't change that reality. Unfortunately some people still have an irrational, unscientific belief that they will somehow magically be able to avoid the virus forever. That said, I do hope that remote working will continue to be an option for those who want it as there are advantages besides virus exposure.
    - macintux 5y ago
      New treatments are becoming available all the time, better vaccines will emerge, why wouldn't I want to delay? I take care of an elderly parent; becoming sick and not knowing it is potentially fatal to her. I can be cautious and likely avoid significant exposure for another year or two at least, but not if my employer disallows it.
    - 5y ago
- varelse 5y ago
  If you don't see the value in delaying exposure to that virus until there is something close to a sterilizing vaccine that's your viewpoint and you are entitled to that viewpoint. I hope you realize others see things differently. I understand that people feel isolated and I support them doing as they please up to the point that it endangers others. To that end, opening up all the corporate offices for those that feel the need to be in the office once again whilst 100% allowing work from home seems the best of both worlds. We have vaccines. But we also have a rapidly evolving virus and a perfect storm right now for it to evolve further. I'm betting on the virus to win this one in the short-term. But I'm also betting in the long term that it's doomed, fortunately.
  - nextos 5y ago
    I have been offered a job in a new SARS vaccine design team and, ironically, they want to put me in a tiny crowded office with no HVAC. Of course, when I stated I'm less than happy about that, they claimed it's very safe. Yet all workers are traveling by bus and masks are not mandatory.
    - varelse 5y ago
      So are you seeing the red flags here or not? This doesn't seem like a winning effort. This seems more like the opening scene to The Stand or the French lab that spawned the zombie apocalypse. Not that I think this virus is the end of the world but I do think it is the global marshmallow test. I can wait a really long time. I'm not a people person anyway. Aside: genuine bona fide former bench scientist who used to work in a hot lab here. I stopped working in hot labs because the safety practices of my coworkers terrified me. Many of them are dead of cancer now, decades later. While there's no strong evidence for it, I cannot entirely dismiss the lab Leak theory here based on my prior experience working with fellow scientists and their cavalier attitudes towards safety. Had I stayed I think I would have lost my mind.
    - tgma 5y ago
      Why is it ironic? The outcome from a proper vaccine would be eliminating masks and other measures. It seems 100% aligned with the company goals, but not the common perpetually-anxious-but-loves-to-look-rational dream.
- Diederich 5y ago
  A slightly different formulation: "All of that is pointless. You're inevitably going to be exposed to ionizing radiation many times throughout your life regardless of what your employer does. Whether you're exposed in the office or somewhere else hardly matters." Viral loading matters a great deal. > Fortunately the vaccines and other treatments make the risk minimal. For some definition of 'minimal', for most people, this is thankfully very true.
easytiger 5y ago
Why not have to sign, I assume you mean, liability waiver when you step foot outside of your home? One of the biggest sources of infections in the already vulnerable has been nosocomial vectors. Should your hospital admissions be assumed as a dangerous activity that is optional at your own risk? Children get on average 5-8 viral infections a year. Should parents be told that they should sacrifice their child's lifelong immune health and rectitude to prevent themselves getting a common virus as has been our custom for millennia?
- varelse 5y ago
  Just like HR departments exist solely to protect corporations from lawsuits this agreement is there to protect corporations from idiotic lawsuits insinuating that the dumbass who went into the office unmasked and got covid somehow takes zero responsibility for their behavior. Or is this your way of saying that you're opting into getting a free smallpox infection this year because children get 5 to 8 viral infections a year? We still have some small stockpiles of smallpox if you're so inclined.
  - easytiger 5y ago
    > Or is this your way of saying that you're opting into getting a free smallpox infection this year because children get 5 to 8 viral infections a year? We still have some small stockpiles of smallpox if you're so inclined. I genuinely can't decipher what point you are making?
    - varelse 5y ago
      Infections are natural and cool? OK! Help yourself to HIV, smallpox, polio, hantavirus, covid, measles, MERS, and Ebola. Can you feel that healthy natural immunity building now or what?
wilde 5y ago
Funnily enough this used to be a benefit Microsoft touted.
benjaminwootton 5y ago
Genuine question. What percentage of you is saying this for fear or concern of the virus, and what percentage is saying it because you like to work remotely? From where I’m sitting, it feels like the laptop class liking WFH is one of the brakes for a return to normality.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  It’s also a bit odd to consider remote working the paragon of virtue when of course the vast majority of jobs simply can’t be done from home. So it’s a bit of a pickle to claim working in an office is equivalent to killing others, when we all accept buying products that clearly weren’t made by people that were working from home. Are we casually supporting these people killing each other, just so we can buy a hamburger?
  - SauciestGNU 5y ago
    There's a reason "we're not essential, we're expendable" became a meme among service workers. We are absolutely expecting low wage workers to sacrifice themselves to keep the economy and luxury services running.
  - varelse 5y ago
    Now you're figuring out the west's informal caste system. Now apply this concept to the equity pie slices that go to startup TLAs vs founding engineers and be amazed...
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  Normal is context sensitive. The norm for 2021 information sector workers has been remote work. See also: "I am a man, therefore everything I do is a manly act".
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    Exactly! > one of the brakes for a return to normality I hate how so many have simply defined "normal" as "exactly the way we all lived in November 2019" and then just assume that we must get back to precisely that. As if that moment in time represents some objective Normal Right Way to live. Framing that moment of time as "normal" is preventing us from moving forward to a new normal, with things like more opportunities for remote work and better in-office health-and-safety.
vm2196 5y ago
This is the kinda idiot I wouldn't want to work with. Take one thing and go to the extreme. What a crazy way to live.

tdeck 5y ago

> But also I 100% support people opting into going back to the office with zero protection or any liability for their employers should something unfortunate happen There's a legitimate concern about people being coerced into "volunteering" to return to the office by their employer. Perhaps not most people at Google, but even there some employees will be in a situation where their manager can bully them into the office.

nradov 5y ago

All of that is pointless. You're inevitably going to be exposed to the virus many times throughout your life regardless of what your employer does. Whether you're exposed in the office or somewhere else hardly matters. Fortunately the vaccines and other treatments make the risk minimal. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

sg47 5y ago
I can choose to willingly not go into a closed space with 1000+ people. The risk of exposure is going to be higher in the office. I have no qualms with meeting my team for lunch or dinner or even a team offsite for a whole day once a month but the notion of coming into potential close contact with hundreds of people day to day is very scary.
- varelse 5y ago
  The sorts that wish to require you to work in spaces like that are not worth working for under any circumstances. You can do better if you try, don't settle...
datameta 5y ago
In every argument for and against any covid related policy, the debate falls apart when the participants fail to realize people have different risk assessments. Age, co-morbidities or lack thereof, pre-existing risk-taking lifestyle or not, co-habitating with anyone else or not, and the list goes on.
- varelse 5y ago
  Sure, but I'm betting that an everybody does what they want to to the point that it doesn't endanger anyone else isn't even good enough for some people who feel the need to control the behavior of others. What is this obsessive need to bring everyone back into the same poorly ventilated rooms? What business goal is served here other than literally making them look busy? Do you want to wear a mask for 7 to 12 hours a day on the job when you could be at home? But also for those who feel that doing so is better than working from home, more power to you. Just don't make me join your club. It's just not my thing.
- nradov 5y ago
  Also irrelevant. Think it through over the long term. Since the virus is now endemic and can't be eradicated anyone who lives outside of a sterile bubble will occasionally be exposed regardless of the protective measures they take. Just like with the other endemic coronaviruses such as HCoV-OC43. Differences in personal risk assessment won't change that reality. Unfortunately some people still have an irrational, unscientific belief that they will somehow magically be able to avoid the virus forever. That said, I do hope that remote working will continue to be an option for those who want it as there are advantages besides virus exposure.
  - macintux 5y ago
    New treatments are becoming available all the time, better vaccines will emerge, why wouldn't I want to delay? I take care of an elderly parent; becoming sick and not knowing it is potentially fatal to her. I can be cautious and likely avoid significant exposure for another year or two at least, but not if my employer disallows it.
  - 5y ago
varelse 5y ago
If you don't see the value in delaying exposure to that virus until there is something close to a sterilizing vaccine that's your viewpoint and you are entitled to that viewpoint. I hope you realize others see things differently. I understand that people feel isolated and I support them doing as they please up to the point that it endangers others. To that end, opening up all the corporate offices for those that feel the need to be in the office once again whilst 100% allowing work from home seems the best of both worlds. We have vaccines. But we also have a rapidly evolving virus and a perfect storm right now for it to evolve further. I'm betting on the virus to win this one in the short-term. But I'm also betting in the long term that it's doomed, fortunately.
- nextos 5y ago
  I have been offered a job in a new SARS vaccine design team and, ironically, they want to put me in a tiny crowded office with no HVAC. Of course, when I stated I'm less than happy about that, they claimed it's very safe. Yet all workers are traveling by bus and masks are not mandatory.
  - varelse 5y ago
    So are you seeing the red flags here or not? This doesn't seem like a winning effort. This seems more like the opening scene to The Stand or the French lab that spawned the zombie apocalypse. Not that I think this virus is the end of the world but I do think it is the global marshmallow test. I can wait a really long time. I'm not a people person anyway. Aside: genuine bona fide former bench scientist who used to work in a hot lab here. I stopped working in hot labs because the safety practices of my coworkers terrified me. Many of them are dead of cancer now, decades later. While there's no strong evidence for it, I cannot entirely dismiss the lab Leak theory here based on my prior experience working with fellow scientists and their cavalier attitudes towards safety. Had I stayed I think I would have lost my mind.
  - tgma 5y ago
    Why is it ironic? The outcome from a proper vaccine would be eliminating masks and other measures. It seems 100% aligned with the company goals, but not the common perpetually-anxious-but-loves-to-look-rational dream.
Diederich 5y ago
A slightly different formulation: "All of that is pointless. You're inevitably going to be exposed to ionizing radiation many times throughout your life regardless of what your employer does. Whether you're exposed in the office or somewhere else hardly matters." Viral loading matters a great deal. > Fortunately the vaccines and other treatments make the risk minimal. For some definition of 'minimal', for most people, this is thankfully very true.

easytiger 5y ago

Why not have to sign, I assume you mean, liability waiver when you step foot outside of your home? One of the biggest sources of infections in the already vulnerable has been nosocomial vectors. Should your hospital admissions be assumed as a dangerous activity that is optional at your own risk? Children get on average 5-8 viral infections a year. Should parents be told that they should sacrifice their child's lifelong immune health and rectitude to prevent themselves getting a common virus as has been our custom for millennia?

varelse 5y ago
Just like HR departments exist solely to protect corporations from lawsuits this agreement is there to protect corporations from idiotic lawsuits insinuating that the dumbass who went into the office unmasked and got covid somehow takes zero responsibility for their behavior. Or is this your way of saying that you're opting into getting a free smallpox infection this year because children get 5 to 8 viral infections a year? We still have some small stockpiles of smallpox if you're so inclined.
- easytiger 5y ago
  > Or is this your way of saying that you're opting into getting a free smallpox infection this year because children get 5 to 8 viral infections a year? We still have some small stockpiles of smallpox if you're so inclined. I genuinely can't decipher what point you are making?
  - varelse 5y ago
    Infections are natural and cool? OK! Help yourself to HIV, smallpox, polio, hantavirus, covid, measles, MERS, and Ebola. Can you feel that healthy natural immunity building now or what?

wilde 5y ago

Funnily enough this used to be a benefit Microsoft touted.

benjaminwootton 5y ago

Genuine question. What percentage of you is saying this for fear or concern of the virus, and what percentage is saying it because you like to work remotely? From where I’m sitting, it feels like the laptop class liking WFH is one of the brakes for a return to normality.

tinus_hn 5y ago
It’s also a bit odd to consider remote working the paragon of virtue when of course the vast majority of jobs simply can’t be done from home. So it’s a bit of a pickle to claim working in an office is equivalent to killing others, when we all accept buying products that clearly weren’t made by people that were working from home. Are we casually supporting these people killing each other, just so we can buy a hamburger?
- SauciestGNU 5y ago
  There's a reason "we're not essential, we're expendable" became a meme among service workers. We are absolutely expecting low wage workers to sacrifice themselves to keep the economy and luxury services running.
- varelse 5y ago
  Now you're figuring out the west's informal caste system. Now apply this concept to the equity pie slices that go to startup TLAs vs founding engineers and be amazed...
CameronNemo 5y ago
Normal is context sensitive. The norm for 2021 information sector workers has been remote work. See also: "I am a man, therefore everything I do is a manly act".
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Exactly! > one of the brakes for a return to normality I hate how so many have simply defined "normal" as "exactly the way we all lived in November 2019" and then just assume that we must get back to precisely that. As if that moment in time represents some objective Normal Right Way to live. Framing that moment of time as "normal" is preventing us from moving forward to a new normal, with things like more opportunities for remote work and better in-office health-and-safety.

vm2196 5y ago

This is the kinda idiot I wouldn't want to work with. Take one thing and go to the extreme. What a crazy way to live.