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>"Learning is not just a matter of gaining new knowledge—it is also about a change in identity. As teachers introduce mathematics to students, they are helping

>"Learning is not just a matter of gaining new knowledge—it is also about a change in identity. As teachers introduce mathematics to students, they are helping them shape their identity as people" I don't get it... what about this is so scary to you? Is it the word 'identity'? Because as a standalone statement, I actually think this is a healthy approach to education. I get that "social justice" and apparently now "justice" are loaded terms in our modern political discourse, but countering racialized ideas and framing education as a part of our identity as people/citizens... I mean, that hardly seems like objectionable to me.

lapetitejort 5y ago
Culture and identity have always been present in math. Starting words problems with "Bob makes $50,000 a year" or "Alice needs 10 onions from the store" helps frame men as workers and women as home-makers. Taken by themselves they're fairly innocuous. Combined with every other social signal children hear every day, they can perpetuate out of date and harmful stereotypes.
- Out_of_Characte 5y ago
  My experience with those story driven math problems is that dyslexic people fail them despite doing well on pure math.
  - freemint 5y ago
    Yet being able to map real world problems into math problems and solve them is an essential skill. In my class in Europe story driven problems were read aloud.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  "Starting words problems with "Bob makes $50,000 a year" or "Alice needs 10 onions from the store" helps frame men as workers and women as home-makers." This is one of those statements where part of your brain goes "well, I guess there might be atom-sized kernel of truth to this". But in reality, I doubt anyone is tangibly affected by the congruent use of Male/Female names in word problems that map to traditional Male/Female gender roles. I believe this is a result of a hypersensitive social-justice filter which results in an astonishingly large false-positive rate. Quite frankly, I just fail to see how gendered language in word problems not only 1) reflects math being inherently cultured and identity-based, 2) harmfully reinforces malicious stereotypes (people can just as easily write Alice makes $50,000 a year, Bob needs 10 onions from the store), and 3) are odious enough to justify a substantial, near fundamental, change in math education.
- danachow 5y ago
  Lord jesus what a strawman. You have any good evidence that math word problems in elementary ed are systematically biased in this way - and the plural of anecdote is not data, so don't waste our time.
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    They were working overtime not to allow any of this into the curriculum even when I was in elementary school back in the 80's. Usually it was worthy of an eyeroll from all of us: "John and his friends Jamal, Carlos and Akira are on the bus..."
- syspec 5y ago
  So randomize the names, problem solved without getting rid of word problems. Word problems are pain in the butt, but they teach the skill of converting an abstract problem math symbols which can be solved
- jimbokun 5y ago
  So write a script to randomize the names in the textbook and be done with it.
lstodd 5y ago
The whole of your reply is scary. I guess it's just I think that the pursuit of knowledge shall have nothing to do with any one 'identity' or 'ideology'. It is orthogonal to that, or it just doesn't work and then why teach something that does not work.
- hnaccount141 5y ago
  I don't think the person you're replying to is saying that the pursuit of knowledge has anything to do with any one identity, they're simply saying that the pursuit of knowledge inherently changes the way we conceive of ourselves, which seems pretty universal.
- seoaeu 5y ago
  So surely you're on board with fighting any racism or sexism in the classroom, right? Specifically that any "racialized or gendered ideas" have no place in a math class, and that "teachers need to work consciously to counter" them if they do come up? In other words, exactly what the the original report said to do...
- robotbikes 5y ago
  I think your interpretation of the word identity in this case is wrapped up in political discourse. Encouraging students to identify as an educated people for whom pursuing knowledge is both important and desirable seems like a net positive goal. Understanding that there are cultural and psychological hurdles that can stand in the way of this when people don't see themselves as math people is part of solving the problem. I can also agree that it is very difficult to do and learn Calculus when your understanding of Algebra is limited or out of practice as someone who went back to get an undergraduate degree after almost 2 decades of not doing math. Is Calculus actually essential for critical thinking ? No and it does serve as a stand-in for this in many STEM degrees and if someone is lacking in understanding of the basic principles of algebra then it is going to feel like torture to solve calculus problems even if you can understand the concepts.
  - SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
    It’s this metastasized concept of identity that scares me. The traditional response to “I’m not a math person” was to reassure students that, hey, you don’t have to be a math person to learn and get value from math. (This is where culturally responsive education was understood to come in - it helps students realize that math is useful for them no matter who they are and where they come from.) Now the conventional wisdom seems to be that you do have to be a math person, and teachers had better work hard on cultivating a “math person” identity, because otherwise there’s no way their students can learn math. I think this is a false belief that will make education quite a bit worse if acted on. I would never have learned to write well if teachers told me I needed to identify as a writer first!
cscurmudgeon 5y ago
Please explain how objectivity in Math is white supremacy: From: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11... > As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows: • Perfectionism • Sense of Urgency • Defensiveness • Quantity Over Quality • Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism • Either/Or Thinking • Power Hoarding • Fear of Open Conflict • Individualism • Only One Right Way • Progress is Bigger, More • Objectivity • Right to Comfort
- robotbikes 5y ago
  If you look at the source of these terms they aren't as inflammatory and include a number of antidotes to how these can manifest in organizations - https://www.thc.texas.gov/public/upload/preserve/ https://www.thc.texas.gov/public/upload/preserve/ museums/files/White_Supremacy_Culture.pdf I would personally say that this is sort of a manifestation of hierarchicalism which can be predominantly connected to white people in the United States but really transcends the racial dynamics and instead focus on accepting and promoting social structures that make those who have power over others feel like their power is justified and that those who question it or don't accept it are wrong. For instance here is how they define paternalism: decision-making is clear to those with power and unclear to those without it • those with power think they are capable of making decisions for and in the interests of those without power • those with power often don't think it is important or necessary to understand the viewpoint or experience of those for whom they are making decisions • those without power understand they do not have it and understand who does • those without power do not really know how decisions get made and who makes what decisions, and yet they are completely familiar with the impact of those decisions on them Here they present some antidotes: make sure that everyone knows and understands who makes what decisions in the organization; make sure everyone knows and understands their level of responsibility and authority in the organization; include people who are affected by decisions in the decision-making Is this directly related math, not necessarily and should it be tied exclusively to white supremacy culture, I would argue no but it can certainly be the case that the corporate culture of our hierarchical society has a lot of these problems. I just wouldn't lump it under a racial lens because I feel like that misses the mark. I also agree that the short list included is sort of a disservice/reductionist as it doesn't explain how these are problems or how they can be overcame whereas the source document at least provides context and explanation.
TeeMassive 5y ago
Identity has nothing with math.
- whymauri 5y ago
  It's not that identity defines math from a correctness point-of-view, it's that math can become a part of and enrich your identity. Countered with the perspective that math is a chore or 'useless', this instead posits that you can make education a part of your identity. And what is academic passion if not a combination of identity, desire, and education? I think it's a nice framing, one that engage students more than 'you will learn math because we say you must learn math.' One that ensures teachers are aware of their role in shaping the identity of students. If you trace back the history of math, it's not uncommon to make math a passion, a part of your identity (think of the Pythagoreans, for a historical example). When you become a mathematician, is math not then a part of your identity? That's what I interpret from: >As teachers introduce mathematics to students, they are helping them shape their identity as people. So the idea is to have teachers be aware of the impact of math and education on people's identity. It is a consciousness thing.
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    Why is making math a part of your "identity" preferable to seeing math as a tool you can apply to accomplish your goals, or something you can do for fun? The vast majority of high school math students will not become mathematicians.
    - whymauri 5y ago
      >So the idea is to have teachers be aware of the impact of math and education on people's identity. It is a consciousness thing. It's not a question of preferability (one view is not mutually exclusive of the other), and I didn't claim high schoolers should all become mathematicians (where did that come from?). In either case, I fail to see how training instructors to be aware of their teachings' effect on identity can be harmful. I'm not particularly scared nor threatened by the idea of it, and the idea that there's no connection between education and identity doesn't make sense to me. That's all I have to say.
jimbokun 5y ago
It's meaningless pablum taking away class time from actually teaching mathematics to promote political ideology. What does it mean that learning mathematics changes your "identity"? You are still the same person you were before, but now you know some math and can do and can understand some things you couldn't before.

lapetitejort 5y ago

Culture and identity have always been present in math. Starting words problems with "Bob makes $50,000 a year" or "Alice needs 10 onions from the store" helps frame men as workers and women as home-makers. Taken by themselves they're fairly innocuous. Combined with every other social signal children hear every day, they can perpetuate out of date and harmful stereotypes.

Out_of_Characte 5y ago
My experience with those story driven math problems is that dyslexic people fail them despite doing well on pure math.
- freemint 5y ago
  Yet being able to map real world problems into math problems and solve them is an essential skill. In my class in Europe story driven problems were read aloud.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
"Starting words problems with "Bob makes $50,000 a year" or "Alice needs 10 onions from the store" helps frame men as workers and women as home-makers." This is one of those statements where part of your brain goes "well, I guess there might be atom-sized kernel of truth to this". But in reality, I doubt anyone is tangibly affected by the congruent use of Male/Female names in word problems that map to traditional Male/Female gender roles. I believe this is a result of a hypersensitive social-justice filter which results in an astonishingly large false-positive rate. Quite frankly, I just fail to see how gendered language in word problems not only 1) reflects math being inherently cultured and identity-based, 2) harmfully reinforces malicious stereotypes (people can just as easily write Alice makes $50,000 a year, Bob needs 10 onions from the store), and 3) are odious enough to justify a substantial, near fundamental, change in math education.
danachow 5y ago
Lord jesus what a strawman. You have any good evidence that math word problems in elementary ed are systematically biased in this way - and the plural of anecdote is not data, so don't waste our time.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  They were working overtime not to allow any of this into the curriculum even when I was in elementary school back in the 80's. Usually it was worthy of an eyeroll from all of us: "John and his friends Jamal, Carlos and Akira are on the bus..."
syspec 5y ago
So randomize the names, problem solved without getting rid of word problems. Word problems are pain in the butt, but they teach the skill of converting an abstract problem math symbols which can be solved
jimbokun 5y ago
So write a script to randomize the names in the textbook and be done with it.

lstodd 5y ago

The whole of your reply is scary. I guess it's just I think that the pursuit of knowledge shall have nothing to do with any one 'identity' or 'ideology'. It is orthogonal to that, or it just doesn't work and then why teach something that does not work.

hnaccount141 5y ago
I don't think the person you're replying to is saying that the pursuit of knowledge has anything to do with any one identity, they're simply saying that the pursuit of knowledge inherently changes the way we conceive of ourselves, which seems pretty universal.
seoaeu 5y ago
So surely you're on board with fighting any racism or sexism in the classroom, right? Specifically that any "racialized or gendered ideas" have no place in a math class, and that "teachers need to work consciously to counter" them if they do come up? In other words, exactly what the the original report said to do...
robotbikes 5y ago
I think your interpretation of the word identity in this case is wrapped up in political discourse. Encouraging students to identify as an educated people for whom pursuing knowledge is both important and desirable seems like a net positive goal. Understanding that there are cultural and psychological hurdles that can stand in the way of this when people don't see themselves as math people is part of solving the problem. I can also agree that it is very difficult to do and learn Calculus when your understanding of Algebra is limited or out of practice as someone who went back to get an undergraduate degree after almost 2 decades of not doing math. Is Calculus actually essential for critical thinking ? No and it does serve as a stand-in for this in many STEM degrees and if someone is lacking in understanding of the basic principles of algebra then it is going to feel like torture to solve calculus problems even if you can understand the concepts.
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  It’s this metastasized concept of identity that scares me. The traditional response to “I’m not a math person” was to reassure students that, hey, you don’t have to be a math person to learn and get value from math. (This is where culturally responsive education was understood to come in - it helps students realize that math is useful for them no matter who they are and where they come from.) Now the conventional wisdom seems to be that you do have to be a math person, and teachers had better work hard on cultivating a “math person” identity, because otherwise there’s no way their students can learn math. I think this is a false belief that will make education quite a bit worse if acted on. I would never have learned to write well if teachers told me I needed to identify as a writer first!

cscurmudgeon 5y ago

Please explain how objectivity in Math is white supremacy: From: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11... > As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows: • Perfectionism • Sense of Urgency • Defensiveness • Quantity Over Quality • Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism • Either/Or Thinking • Power Hoarding • Fear of Open Conflict • Individualism • Only One Right Way • Progress is Bigger, More • Objectivity • Right to Comfort

robotbikes 5y ago
If you look at the source of these terms they aren't as inflammatory and include a number of antidotes to how these can manifest in organizations - https://www.thc.texas.gov/public/upload/preserve/ https://www.thc.texas.gov/public/upload/preserve/ museums/files/White_Supremacy_Culture.pdf I would personally say that this is sort of a manifestation of hierarchicalism which can be predominantly connected to white people in the United States but really transcends the racial dynamics and instead focus on accepting and promoting social structures that make those who have power over others feel like their power is justified and that those who question it or don't accept it are wrong. For instance here is how they define paternalism: decision-making is clear to those with power and unclear to those without it • those with power think they are capable of making decisions for and in the interests of those without power • those with power often don't think it is important or necessary to understand the viewpoint or experience of those for whom they are making decisions • those without power understand they do not have it and understand who does • those without power do not really know how decisions get made and who makes what decisions, and yet they are completely familiar with the impact of those decisions on them Here they present some antidotes: make sure that everyone knows and understands who makes what decisions in the organization; make sure everyone knows and understands their level of responsibility and authority in the organization; include people who are affected by decisions in the decision-making Is this directly related math, not necessarily and should it be tied exclusively to white supremacy culture, I would argue no but it can certainly be the case that the corporate culture of our hierarchical society has a lot of these problems. I just wouldn't lump it under a racial lens because I feel like that misses the mark. I also agree that the short list included is sort of a disservice/reductionist as it doesn't explain how these are problems or how they can be overcame whereas the source document at least provides context and explanation.

TeeMassive 5y ago

Identity has nothing with math.

whymauri 5y ago
It's not that identity defines math from a correctness point-of-view, it's that math can become a part of and enrich your identity. Countered with the perspective that math is a chore or 'useless', this instead posits that you can make education a part of your identity. And what is academic passion if not a combination of identity, desire, and education? I think it's a nice framing, one that engage students more than 'you will learn math because we say you must learn math.' One that ensures teachers are aware of their role in shaping the identity of students. If you trace back the history of math, it's not uncommon to make math a passion, a part of your identity (think of the Pythagoreans, for a historical example). When you become a mathematician, is math not then a part of your identity? That's what I interpret from: >As teachers introduce mathematics to students, they are helping them shape their identity as people. So the idea is to have teachers be aware of the impact of math and education on people's identity. It is a consciousness thing.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  Why is making math a part of your "identity" preferable to seeing math as a tool you can apply to accomplish your goals, or something you can do for fun? The vast majority of high school math students will not become mathematicians.
  - whymauri 5y ago
    >So the idea is to have teachers be aware of the impact of math and education on people's identity. It is a consciousness thing. It's not a question of preferability (one view is not mutually exclusive of the other), and I didn't claim high schoolers should all become mathematicians (where did that come from?). In either case, I fail to see how training instructors to be aware of their teachings' effect on identity can be harmful. I'm not particularly scared nor threatened by the idea of it, and the idea that there's no connection between education and identity doesn't make sense to me. That's all I have to say.

jimbokun 5y ago

It's meaningless pablum taking away class time from actually teaching mathematics to promote political ideology. What does it mean that learning mathematics changes your "identity"? You are still the same person you were before, but now you know some math and can do and can understand some things you couldn't before.