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Yeah this is yet another reason to want phones to have removable storage (micro sd card). So private photos can go onto the card instead of built-in storage, a

Yeah this is yet another reason to want phones to have removable storage (micro sd card). So private photos can go onto the card instead of built-in storage, and you can remove the card if you have to send in the phone. I don't take nudes but I tend to use my phone as an impromptu photocopier for stuff like bills and receipts, so the photos are full of private info such as account numbers. I worry about that sometimes. For photos that have to be treated with real security (typically the screen of recovery codes when enrolling a 2FA token), I use my old dedicated digital camera which has an SD card, no network connection, and never leaves my bedroom.

duxup 5y ago
I feel like removable SD card is a tech person solution but ... kinda doesn't solve it for a lot of folks. Most folks are just going to take nudes and not strategize much and expect them to remain private as part of the typical photo taking and sharing workflow.
- silon42 5y ago
  I've seen Android now has Safe Folder with extra pin (haven't looked too deep). But (short) pin probably isn't enough, because that means the key is still on the phone.. I'd want an extra password.
- slantyyz 5y ago
  > I feel like removable SD card is a tech person solution but... As an older person, I find this observation very interesting. Today, I would consider people in general to be much more technically knowledgeable compared to people 20+ years ago. And yet, 20 years ago, removable storage was quite common, and probably expected of most devices.
  - duxup 5y ago
    You can be older and a tech person, I'm older ;) People are more capable but security like this needs to just be a part of the usual workflow or problems will continue to occur. Moving files around on a device, extra steps, just doesn't work for the masses.
    - Teknoman117 5y ago
      I'm young-ish, but my general observation has been that my peers forget it was our grandparents and great grandparents that invented computers in the first place. Admittedly, the technological world is nearly impossible to avoid exposure to these days, where it was entirely optional (or downright prohibitive) to be involved with in the past. So in general, thank you older people for creating them, I have a lot of fun with them.
  - KineticLensman 5y ago
    > Today, I would consider people in general to be much more technically knowledgeable compared to people 20+ years ago Very few people know how apps actually store files on a mobile device and as people increasingly use phones / tablets instead of PCs their knowledge of PC file systems reduces. So for many people, copying photos from a phone (or cloud backup) to a computer could be quite a challenge.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      Sounds like a design issue, no? If Apple implemented it, they'd call the feature "Secure Liferaft" or something equally silly, but I have no doubt in my mind that they could engineer a proper solution for it. Today's users go out of their way to hide files and folders, so why not give them a chance to do so the right way? The technology is there, all you need is a little marketing pizzazz and a 30 second ad spot with Billie Eilish in the background.
      - xore 5y ago
        In fact, Google already implemented a way to hide files: it's called "secure folder" in Files and "locked folder" in Photos. BTW IDK why there are two names for the same concept
  - rodolphoarruda 5y ago
    The majority of young people I know (in Brazil) doesn't know the concept of "file". So adding/keeping files in SD Cards is a task that requires some explanation. Disclaimer: I'm also an older person.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      It is an easy concept that was trivial for 10 year olds to learn a few years ago. Abstracting it away had a real cost in my opinion.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    Do not confuse the ability to use a phone or laptop with technical knowledge. People know how to use apps, but all the technical stuff is abstracted away. I'm pretty technical (As is nearly everyone on HN), and I have no idea where my photos are stored on my Android's file system. I have no idea where the APKs are for all my installed apps, or where their saved data sits.
    - kroltan 5y ago
      But if _everything_ is always saved on the card, then you don't need the technical knowledge. Removing the card would leave the phone in a "factory clean" condition.
      - tobyjsullivan 5y ago
        If everything is on the SD card (as in: it won't work w/o the card inserted), then it will have to come with a card pre-installed. In that case, the average user won't even realize there's a removable card. It's turtles all the way down.
        hutzlibu 5y ago
        Well, all the user data, like pictures could be placed on the sd by default.
        FalconSensei 5y ago
        But if the phone doesn't come with a card pre-installed, people are going to complain that it doesn't work, or that they didn't know they had to purchase a card. Unless it comes with a card, but the card is not inserted, so the user has to do it before booting up the phone
        hutzlibu 5y ago
        Or, provide a simple and clear way, to move all the user data to the card, first time it is inserted.
  - dolni 5y ago
    I wouldn't say that. I had an 11 year old ask me what "right-click" was the other day. Yes, it sounds insane and it absolutely is. I blame the public school system. They know only what they're exposed to, and no more. Most devices don't have SD cards these days.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      Why didn't you expose them to that?
      - dolni 5y ago
        Well, first of all it's not my kid. Second of all, I did. That's why I was asked what right-click was.
- izacus 5y ago
  > I feel like removable SD card is a tech person solution but ... kinda doesn't solve it for a lot of folks. What's so tech about removing a physical piece that has data? It's an action pretty much everyone can understand intuitively - "this is where your pictures are, if you remove it they stay yours".
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    This is something people can understand. But even I struggled at times to get those pictures then onto a given pc. I know what a filesystem and a driver is, so I can make it work, if something is missing. A layperson usually cannot. Partly on purpose, one might say. They are supposed to stay in their walled gardens, where you transfer everything over the approved cloud way and can be thankful, if their data is accepted in another garden.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    “What's so tech about removing a physical piece that has data” You know that 90% of the world doesn’t know what the word “data” means, right? (Including local variants)
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  The technical problem is that you would need files to be encrypted in case the phone gets stolen. Security mechanism like a pin obviously don't help if someone can just pull the card with the interesting data. Still, even the "worst" users are able to understand the concept.
Bud 5y ago
No. We do NOT need fucking removable storage to fix this. What we need, to fix this, is to enforce felony charges against the kind of fuckers who do this, and put them in prison for 20 years, and stop victim-blaming, and stop the insane medieval attitudes about nudity, and slap every single fucking person who espouses this kind of bullshit upside the head, daily, every single day, until society is finally purged of their bullshit, and we don't need anything. fucking. else. This isn't a product design issue. It's a punish evil people issue.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > This isn't a product design issue. It's a punish evil people issue. It is both. A secure design would not allow this to happen. But when it does, the perpetrator should be punished severely.
- celsoazevedo 5y ago
  In some places, people lose their lives if they do something bad. Yet, people still do bad things. I guess taking someone's life isn't enough of a punishment? Laws discourage certain behaviours. It doesn't stop them. Regarding victim blaming, obviously this person isn't to blame, but it seems that even suggestions to be cautious are seen as "victim blaming". When you tell a kid to look to both sides when crossing the road even if it's green, you're not blaming them for a possible accident. It's just that sometimes people ignore traffic lights. And when you tell someone not to give their pin or send a device with sensitive content for repair, you're not blaming them. You're just telling them to be careful because sometimes stuff like this happens.
- wpietri 5y ago
  I get your anger here, but pure punitive measures won't solve this. This is easy to prove in that it hasn't solved any other sort of crime. One, the correlation between "do a crime" and "do the time" is quite low. Look at the stats for sexual assault (0.25%), robbery (0.2%), and assault and battery (0.3%): https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system Even for murder, the US's clearance rate is only about half. But even if the correlation were somehow perfect, it still wouldn't eliminate it. People just have a hard time believing in the consequences of actions until they experience them. I couldn't count the number of times I've gone through the "ooh fire pretty" -> " ow fire hot" loop in various ways. So this is thing where we need defense in depth. We need solutions in criminal law and civil law and provider regulation and product design and user education and culture shifting. Each one of those will be fallible, but each one will bring the rate down. With enough work we can at least make the bad outcomes rare.
bedhead 5y ago
How about make it so that the "hidden" photos on a phone require a security code/biometric to access? I've always been shocked that this isn't the case with iOS (don't know Android), it seems so obvious and simple.
- aj3 5y ago
  Android has exactly this feature, two in fact: "Safe Folder" for regular files and "Locked Folder" for photos specifically.
- nolok 5y ago
  It's proprietary but that's exactly what Samsung's "Secure Folder" is. Apps, contacts, files, photos ... That can't be listed or accessed without a secondary auth, protected by knox. I don't know about non samsung android phones. It's fairly simple to use, and if you sometime give your phone to other people / kids / etc ... It quickly becomes absolutely necessary. Need to remember to use the "secure folder" camera though, if you merely take the pic THEN move to secure folder, while it's super quick and easy it's usually too late as google photos, dropbox, whatever else will already have duped it.
- sodality2 5y ago
  LG gallery has this feature
- gopalv 5y ago
  > How about make it so that the "hidden" photos on a phone require a security code/biometric to access? Pixel with the latest Android should have that ("Move to Locked Folder" [1]), though as with all security things it is annoying to use in a lot of ways. Doesn't work for SMS images or Whatsapp (Signal is much nicer on this front, but images on Signal get lost if a phone is bricked - the account backup/transfer method sucks a bit). [1] - https://support.google.com/photos/answer/10694388?hl=en https://support.google.com/photos/answer/10694388?hl=en
armchairhacker 5y ago
What about enabling the password to encrypt the disk (FireVault for mobile) and enabling a longer password?
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Modern Android versions are encrypted by default. Though given weak/no passwords by default I believe it only helps if you remember to factory reset first. And if it's damaged a reset or wipe may be impossible for the end user.
doubled112 5y ago
I have a bunch of old USB sticks, HDDs, phones, tablets, etc in my garage because I can't wipe them, but I can't possibly remember what data was stored on them over the years. Micro SD cards are great because they're teeny tiny. Nothing nefarious. I'm just not very trusting with my data, and not going to just hand it over like that.
- JadeNB 5y ago
  Can't you just physically destroy them?

duxup 5y ago

I feel like removable SD card is a tech person solution but ... kinda doesn't solve it for a lot of folks. Most folks are just going to take nudes and not strategize much and expect them to remain private as part of the typical photo taking and sharing workflow.

silon42 5y ago
I've seen Android now has Safe Folder with extra pin (haven't looked too deep). But (short) pin probably isn't enough, because that means the key is still on the phone.. I'd want an extra password.
slantyyz 5y ago
> I feel like removable SD card is a tech person solution but... As an older person, I find this observation very interesting. Today, I would consider people in general to be much more technically knowledgeable compared to people 20+ years ago. And yet, 20 years ago, removable storage was quite common, and probably expected of most devices.
- duxup 5y ago
  You can be older and a tech person, I'm older ;) People are more capable but security like this needs to just be a part of the usual workflow or problems will continue to occur. Moving files around on a device, extra steps, just doesn't work for the masses.
  - Teknoman117 5y ago
    I'm young-ish, but my general observation has been that my peers forget it was our grandparents and great grandparents that invented computers in the first place. Admittedly, the technological world is nearly impossible to avoid exposure to these days, where it was entirely optional (or downright prohibitive) to be involved with in the past. So in general, thank you older people for creating them, I have a lot of fun with them.
- KineticLensman 5y ago
  > Today, I would consider people in general to be much more technically knowledgeable compared to people 20+ years ago Very few people know how apps actually store files on a mobile device and as people increasingly use phones / tablets instead of PCs their knowledge of PC file systems reduces. So for many people, copying photos from a phone (or cloud backup) to a computer could be quite a challenge.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Sounds like a design issue, no? If Apple implemented it, they'd call the feature "Secure Liferaft" or something equally silly, but I have no doubt in my mind that they could engineer a proper solution for it. Today's users go out of their way to hide files and folders, so why not give them a chance to do so the right way? The technology is there, all you need is a little marketing pizzazz and a 30 second ad spot with Billie Eilish in the background.
    - xore 5y ago
      In fact, Google already implemented a way to hide files: it's called "secure folder" in Files and "locked folder" in Photos. BTW IDK why there are two names for the same concept
- rodolphoarruda 5y ago
  The majority of young people I know (in Brazil) doesn't know the concept of "file". So adding/keeping files in SD Cards is a task that requires some explanation. Disclaimer: I'm also an older person.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    It is an easy concept that was trivial for 10 year olds to learn a few years ago. Abstracting it away had a real cost in my opinion.
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  Do not confuse the ability to use a phone or laptop with technical knowledge. People know how to use apps, but all the technical stuff is abstracted away. I'm pretty technical (As is nearly everyone on HN), and I have no idea where my photos are stored on my Android's file system. I have no idea where the APKs are for all my installed apps, or where their saved data sits.
  - kroltan 5y ago
    But if _everything_ is always saved on the card, then you don't need the technical knowledge. Removing the card would leave the phone in a "factory clean" condition.
    - tobyjsullivan 5y ago
      If everything is on the SD card (as in: it won't work w/o the card inserted), then it will have to come with a card pre-installed. In that case, the average user won't even realize there's a removable card. It's turtles all the way down.
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        Well, all the user data, like pictures could be placed on the sd by default.
        FalconSensei 5y ago
        But if the phone doesn't come with a card pre-installed, people are going to complain that it doesn't work, or that they didn't know they had to purchase a card. Unless it comes with a card, but the card is not inserted, so the user has to do it before booting up the phone
        hutzlibu 5y ago
        Or, provide a simple and clear way, to move all the user data to the card, first time it is inserted.
- dolni 5y ago
  I wouldn't say that. I had an 11 year old ask me what "right-click" was the other day. Yes, it sounds insane and it absolutely is. I blame the public school system. They know only what they're exposed to, and no more. Most devices don't have SD cards these days.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    Why didn't you expose them to that?
    - dolni 5y ago
      Well, first of all it's not my kid. Second of all, I did. That's why I was asked what right-click was.
izacus 5y ago
> I feel like removable SD card is a tech person solution but ... kinda doesn't solve it for a lot of folks. What's so tech about removing a physical piece that has data? It's an action pretty much everyone can understand intuitively - "this is where your pictures are, if you remove it they stay yours".
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  This is something people can understand. But even I struggled at times to get those pictures then onto a given pc. I know what a filesystem and a driver is, so I can make it work, if something is missing. A layperson usually cannot. Partly on purpose, one might say. They are supposed to stay in their walled gardens, where you transfer everything over the approved cloud way and can be thankful, if their data is accepted in another garden.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  “What's so tech about removing a physical piece that has data” You know that 90% of the world doesn’t know what the word “data” means, right? (Including local variants)
raxxorrax 5y ago
The technical problem is that you would need files to be encrypted in case the phone gets stolen. Security mechanism like a pin obviously don't help if someone can just pull the card with the interesting data. Still, even the "worst" users are able to understand the concept.

Bud 5y ago

No. We do NOT need fucking removable storage to fix this. What we need, to fix this, is to enforce felony charges against the kind of fuckers who do this, and put them in prison for 20 years, and stop victim-blaming, and stop the insane medieval attitudes about nudity, and slap every single fucking person who espouses this kind of bullshit upside the head, daily, every single day, until society is finally purged of their bullshit, and we don't need anything. fucking. else. This isn't a product design issue. It's a punish evil people issue.

rootusrootus 5y ago
> This isn't a product design issue. It's a punish evil people issue. It is both. A secure design would not allow this to happen. But when it does, the perpetrator should be punished severely.
celsoazevedo 5y ago
In some places, people lose their lives if they do something bad. Yet, people still do bad things. I guess taking someone's life isn't enough of a punishment? Laws discourage certain behaviours. It doesn't stop them. Regarding victim blaming, obviously this person isn't to blame, but it seems that even suggestions to be cautious are seen as "victim blaming". When you tell a kid to look to both sides when crossing the road even if it's green, you're not blaming them for a possible accident. It's just that sometimes people ignore traffic lights. And when you tell someone not to give their pin or send a device with sensitive content for repair, you're not blaming them. You're just telling them to be careful because sometimes stuff like this happens.
wpietri 5y ago
I get your anger here, but pure punitive measures won't solve this. This is easy to prove in that it hasn't solved any other sort of crime. One, the correlation between "do a crime" and "do the time" is quite low. Look at the stats for sexual assault (0.25%), robbery (0.2%), and assault and battery (0.3%): https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system Even for murder, the US's clearance rate is only about half. But even if the correlation were somehow perfect, it still wouldn't eliminate it. People just have a hard time believing in the consequences of actions until they experience them. I couldn't count the number of times I've gone through the "ooh fire pretty" -> " ow fire hot" loop in various ways. So this is thing where we need defense in depth. We need solutions in criminal law and civil law and provider regulation and product design and user education and culture shifting. Each one of those will be fallible, but each one will bring the rate down. With enough work we can at least make the bad outcomes rare.

bedhead 5y ago

How about make it so that the "hidden" photos on a phone require a security code/biometric to access? I've always been shocked that this isn't the case with iOS (don't know Android), it seems so obvious and simple.

aj3 5y ago
Android has exactly this feature, two in fact: "Safe Folder" for regular files and "Locked Folder" for photos specifically.
nolok 5y ago
It's proprietary but that's exactly what Samsung's "Secure Folder" is. Apps, contacts, files, photos ... That can't be listed or accessed without a secondary auth, protected by knox. I don't know about non samsung android phones. It's fairly simple to use, and if you sometime give your phone to other people / kids / etc ... It quickly becomes absolutely necessary. Need to remember to use the "secure folder" camera though, if you merely take the pic THEN move to secure folder, while it's super quick and easy it's usually too late as google photos, dropbox, whatever else will already have duped it.
sodality2 5y ago
LG gallery has this feature
gopalv 5y ago
> How about make it so that the "hidden" photos on a phone require a security code/biometric to access? Pixel with the latest Android should have that ("Move to Locked Folder" [1]), though as with all security things it is annoying to use in a lot of ways. Doesn't work for SMS images or Whatsapp (Signal is much nicer on this front, but images on Signal get lost if a phone is bricked - the account backup/transfer method sucks a bit). [1] - https://support.google.com/photos/answer/10694388?hl=en https://support.google.com/photos/answer/10694388?hl=en

armchairhacker 5y ago

What about enabling the password to encrypt the disk (FireVault for mobile) and enabling a longer password?

paulryanrogers 5y ago
Modern Android versions are encrypted by default. Though given weak/no passwords by default I believe it only helps if you remember to factory reset first. And if it's damaged a reset or wipe may be impossible for the end user.

doubled112 5y ago

I have a bunch of old USB sticks, HDDs, phones, tablets, etc in my garage because I can't wipe them, but I can't possibly remember what data was stored on them over the years. Micro SD cards are great because they're teeny tiny. Nothing nefarious. I'm just not very trusting with my data, and not going to just hand it over like that.

JadeNB 5y ago
Can't you just physically destroy them?