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Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates
- pkilgore 5y agoThis is a temporary injunction not a ruling on the merits. Just like Democratic judges doing this to Trump, it's far more likely to be influenced by politics of the particular Judge or Court of Appeals that any meaningful statement of the law (which it is not).
- invisible 5y agoAlso basically every response to this thread regarding this is claiming the courts have decided this, which is just sensational conversation. There very well could be something more to this, but it's more likely that the judge is just airing on "let's dig into this deeper before allowing this change" which makes sense. Nothing has been concluded, the status quo remains.
- charonn0 5y ago1. Judges are not supposed to be partisan 2. I'm not aware of any similar cases being brought under the Trump administration.
- pkilgore 5y ago1. I'm a former Federal litigator. LMAO. And both Parties here. Welcome to America. That's why they filed this in LA + roll up to 11th Cir. Dems file in WA or HI which rolls to the 9th. State Courts are infinitely worse based on the different experience of close friends working in Chicago area v. Northern Indiana. 2. Every temporary injunction issued in the litigation surrounding the wall and Muslim ban was conducted with the Democratic version of this same strategy. This is the game. Sound and fury, signifying nothing. We will learn the law in time.
- beerandt 5y agoOne requirement for such an injunction is the high likelihood of winning on the merits.
- pkilgore 5y agoCorrect. Three other factors need to be balanced as well, although LOS definitely the big one. That doesn't make the PI correct, it doesn't even mean that the court will reach the same decision on the merits in Summary Judgement or after a bench trial, and it definitely doesn't make the PI decision the law.
- zamadatix 5y agoOriginal title is much more accurate "Courts block two Biden administration COVID vaccine mandates", the edited one here "Courts block Covid vaccine mandates for healthcare workers nationwide" implies something much larger in scope.
- geewee 5y agoAlso if you're not US-based.. which nation?
- dang 5y agoOk, we've reverted the title above.
- beerandt 5y agoThe mandates blocked are for healthcare workers nationwide, it's factually correct.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dgfitz 5y agoOp didn’t disagree with you. You should re-read the comment they made. Do you disagree with the Op?
- bko 5y ago> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mandate vaccines, but it really should be a decision made and explicitly endorsed by elected representatives rather than some agency (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services) that I have never heard of until now and whose head is appointed by one person. [EDIT] Too often we look at the end results (e.g. will this increase vaccination rates) rather than the means of getting there. You see it on the left and right. If their guy is in power, they want to expand the scope and reach of their office. Everything is a crisis and someone can solve it if they're just given the right permissions. And this eventually leads to dishonesty and loss of trust. Even news is reported through a utilitarian lens. Many journalists today think they're doing advocacy rather than reporting. They're not assigned topics but talking points. Someone could be the 'tech bad' guy and his stories are nominally about tech but about how big tech is subverting democracy, bad for the environment, you name it. Could you imagine a news report about how the much touted vaccine efficacy of 95% didn't really pan out? It's true. Everyone was around 6 months ago and remembered the efficacy levels being thrown around. Now people are being gaslit to thinking they didn't hear what they heard and its about hospitalization. All because being honest could hurt the cause. And yes, vaccine efficacy was 95% and yes it does mean what you think it means [0] /rant https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00075-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...
- aklemm 5y ago"some agency"? It's an agency put in place and managed (budget, appointments, etc.) BY ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES. Did you want a direct vote on vaccine mandates? Sometimes it seems people fail to understand what a representative government is.
- mistermann 5y ago"Representative".
- swader999 5y agoAt least one of the branches of government is working.
- rvz 5y agoNow there's an idea.
- mikebonnell 5y agoYes, the executive branch is functioning again after 4 years of idiocy.
- sigzero 5y agoBAH HA HA HA.
- narrator 5y agoNow we have Biden, the great genius, running things. /s
- jaywalk 5y agoYour definition of "functioning" doesn't seem to line up with mine.
- dang 5y agoPlease don't take HN threads further into flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mikebonnell 5y agoYou are correct and thanks for the reminder.
- dang 5y agoAppreciated!
- 0xB31B1B 5y agoGarbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.
- HonestOp001 5y agoHow large should the administrative state get? We have unelected officials who are making decisions against the will of the people. The entire system is too large for any person to affect change. That is why we see “crises;” they allow people to focus the group onto a crisis. In normal times, the entire industry reverts to how can they increase their size..
- avs733 5y agoplease provide evidence to support this claim: "We have unelected officials who are making decisions against the will of the people."
- throwaway2077 5y agodid you vote for Ajit Pai?
- avs733 5y agoI voted for the guy who nominated Pai as a commissioner and against the guy who nominated Pai to be the chairman and I voted for two senators who voted against his nomination to be chairman. I also voted for the guy who kicked his ass to the curb. I didn't vote for the guys who made the decision to buy the F35, who audited my tax return, or who wrote the manual on uniform traffic control devices (and among all of these I have the most beef with them). But I voted for and against their bosses. I really really don't want my local mail carrier being an elected position, I and you and they have better things to do. this country isn't a direct democracy, lets not act like it should be just when we disagree with the actions of those elected. These arguments are simply asinine because you know damn well this isn't how things work or were meant to work. You don't like the rule written by one 'unelected' lawyer in the executive branch so you are happy with it being overturned by another 'unelected' lawyer in the judicial branch...
- bbqmaster999 5y agoNow do masks
- CosmicShadow 5y agoI wish headlines would include the country it refers to when it says nationwide
- curiousgal 5y agoHN is mostly centred around the U.S.
- chronofar 5y agoRejecting a compulsory measure not “anti-science,” and using that term in that manner displays a dogmatism that is decidedly unscientific. It is quite coherent to accept the consensus epidemiological realities of COVID, the efficacy and safety of the vaccines, and simultaneously disagree with compulsory measures to enforce treatment.
- curiousgal 5y agoAgreed but in this specific context the issue concerns healthcare workers. Vaccines are mandatory in the army for obvious reasons, ones that are even more relevant for healthcare workers.
- chronofar 5y agoI agree that certain forums require perhaps different compulsory actions, and for healthcare certainly the case for more stringent requirements can be made. Nonetheless my previous reply remains accurate, it is quite possible to coherently argue against them in this context, at minimum by way of their political mechanism of enforcement, while also accepting the consensus scientific views.
- dang 5y agoPlease keep nationalistic flamebait off HN. It leads to nationalistic flamewar, which is a form of internet hell (fortunately a relatively avoidable one). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hestefisk 5y agoWhilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated, ultimately resulting in stockpiles of vaccines getting destroyed … people in third world countries cannot get adequate access to vaccines. This is madness.
- davidw 5y agoAfter 6 years back in the US, I'm starting to get a bit of a 'gut feeling' that it's time to get out again.
- refurb 5y agoIf personal freedom scares then yeah, time to get out.
- lpcvoid 5y agoVaccines should not be a personal freedom choice. They are a life saving invention, where did we go as a society that this is suddenly up for debate? Antivaxxers on HN of all places, what the hell.
- refurb 5y agoI’m fully vaccinated but I won’t force anyone else.
- olliej 5y agoPeople aren’t being forced to get vaccinated.
- dgfitz 5y agoTo get it out of the way, I’m fully vaxxed and I don’t think it should be mandated. No people aren’t being rounded up and stuck with needles against their will. Getting fired from a job is a big deal. Not being able to pay bills or buy food or care for a family, no health insurance, that’s a big deal. Surely you’re bright enough to distinguish between “forced full stop” or “forced and in extremely dire financial straits.” What if I told you there was a new federal mandate that requires you to get a tattoo of my choosing on your forehead. If you don’t, you lose your job. Doesn’t seem reasonable.
- Sosh101 5y agoCan we add the country in the title please?
- 1970-01-01 5y agoRules and laws. The virus does not care about these. At all. It does not care about your race, it does not care about your age. It doesn't care about your employment status, gender, religion, disability, nationality, wealth, or anything else. All it cares about is if it can replicate. As we debate and discuss and argue if laws and rules are justified or not, the virus simply ignores everything and does what it has been doing since it existed. The virus does not obey borders and mandates. It doesn't obey leaders, it doesn't obey power. Perhaps the end doesn't justify the means. Perhaps it's time we rethink how we respond. Either way, the virus doesn't care what you think. It moves as best it can.
- SN76477 5y agoThis has been a disease of pride from the start.
- Chris2048 5y agoWhat has this got to do with anything? Beating a straw man "the virus will wait for legislation" while implying all the "debate and discuss" isn't important. Also, the virus does care about the things you mention, insofar as they affect infection vectors i.e. If you don't have the power to avoid situations that put you at risk.
- 1970-01-01 5y agoI was making a point. It was flagged for some reason.
- Chris2048 5y agoAnd what was the point?
- 1970-01-01 5y agoThe point is it won't acknowledge legislation. It can't be stopped with pen strokes. You will never be able to bargain with it. You can't even communicate with it.
- shadowgovt 5y agoWhat I find most interesting is the private-sector scenarios and how they're playing out. I have relatives who work in healthcare and refuse to get the vaccine. They're at risk of losing their jobs because regardless of external pressure, the hospital employing them is incentivized to let them go by the patients. They're a hospital focused on physical therapy, which is does as much elective business by volume as prescribed... And very few patients are willing to work with a physical therapist who isn't vaccinated, so they're simply losing business as word-of-mouth gets around that they don't require vaccines and patients sign up for their PT regiments with other hospitals in the region. By the same token that the government (absent a law from Congress) perhaps can't force organizations to employ vaccinated staff, the government may have no say if an individual employee is fired because an organization requires vaccinated staff of their own accord. This would be a good time for Congress to show some leadership and lay down some legal guidelines.
- q1w2 5y agoI'm not sure I agree that it's a good time. The current vaccine probably has very limited efficacy against the new omicron variant. Better to wait for the updated booster before forcing more people to take it.
- shadowgovt 5y agoOh I didn't mean pass a law authorizing the executive to force vaccines. I mean this would be a good time for Congress to show leadership in general. As in, make a decision. Really, any decision that shows some reasoning behind it. Entirely too many people in the service of legislature are more worried about their electability than doing a good job. There's a reason that branch has, on average, a mid-teens approval rating most of the time.
- Bhilai 5y agoMandates are probably not going to work but what would work is denying insurance claims. If someone ends up in a hospital occupying an ICU bed for an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine widely and freely available then insurance companies (and medicare) should refuse to pay thousands of dollars for their treatment. It was their choice not to use preventative care available.
- btbuildem 5y agoThere's no point, because these people usually just die. Who does the hospital go after, the estate? The family?
- tfandango 5y agoThe estate yes, I imagine that is what they do in the case of a death not caused by covid? I've also been wondering when insurance will begin denying claims for this, there's a basically free option to prevent most hospital stays, vs thousands in bills to pay, this is the responsible business decision to make in my mind.
- runako 5y agoAnecdotal evidence would appear to support the conclusion that work-based mandates do increase vaccination numbers. People would rather get their shots than lose their jobs.
- primoJS 5y agoObesity is preventable in 95+% of cases, maybe insurance companies should deny coverage to ~40% of the US?
- bequanna 5y agoSmokers pay higher life insurance premiums, right? Risk-adjusted health insurance premiums for preventable lifestyle issues is a great idea. Couple the above with with a ban on advertising pharmaceuticals and we would see a 50% reduction in per capita health care spend almost overnight.
- treeman79 5y agoWhat are the odds a healthcare worker hasn’t been repeatedly exposed to Covid by this point?
- sjwalter 5y agoA bit under half of Americans have already caught covid. Even without vaccines, that means nearly half of Americans already have natural immunity which is vastly superior to vaccine immunity. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
- beerandt 5y ago>A bit under half of Americans have already caught covid No- that many have had a positive test or other diagnosis confirming covid. There were plenty of non-hospitalized, non-diagnosed cases before the tests existed. And plenty of people have had it and never saw a reason to get a test to confirm it. I'd say we're far above that estimated number.
- sjwalter 5y agoSo that's not quite true. The CDC provides the estimate you're talking about which is what my post originally cites (~146mm Americans infected). That's their estimate based on the much smaller number of positive tests and hospitalizations, using their models about how many cases are missed by surveillance.
- konfusinomicon 5y agomakes me wonder if repeated exposure that doesn't result in the virus replicating enough to take hold in the body gives you any kind of immunity, or if that is even a possibility. like how many viral bodies does it take, just 1?
- q1w2 5y agoIt absolutely does. An very low dose initial infection can prime the immune system and give you an asymptomatic case. ...but even if you full blown covid, there is no exemption from the vaccine requirement - that's one of the main arguments of many health workers.
- sAbakumoff 5y agoBrilliant and timely decision. Good luck with Omicron, US.
- commandlinefan 5y agoAren't the Omicron symptoms relatively mild?
- ufo 5y agoSo far we don't have enough data to say how it compares to previous variants. Even with the other variants, most cases are mild and it can take several weeks to start seeing the more severe cases getting worse.
- beerandt 5y agoAnd is only an increased concern because it might be more adept at evading the spike-based vaccines. If you're not vaccinated or have natural immunity, there's likely zero increased reason for personal concern.
- sAbakumoff 5y agoI think that the death rate stays intake in the best case scenario. It could be higher than the Delta rate though, we don't know yet. But you know, I have no reasons to believe that we are so lucky, and even importantly, we deserve the best case scenario. US is crazy. Courts all over the country halt COVID protections measures. Republicans in the house don't want to prevent the government shutdown because of the vaccine mandates for private sector. Anti-vaxx rhetoric is stronger than ever before. So, people continue to die because dysfunctional government can't get their sh*t together. One party goes all-in with cultural war, conspiracy theories and sabotages everything. The other party is so weak that they can't execute the agenda of their own president.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- not2b 5y agoPlease fix the headline to match the one on the article. The Hacker News headline is deeply misleading, because vaccine mandates imposed by US states and cities are not affected by this court action.
- docflabby 5y agoIf we can't convince medical workers to recieve a vaccine from their peers we are doing something wrong.
- chronofar 5y agoConvince or compel? Do you expect all healthcare workers to receive any widely prescribed treatment? Is there no room for dissent in your mind?
- olliej 5y agoWe require healthcare workers wash their hands. We require other vaccines. There is plenty of room for dissent, but it stops being “dissent” when it is simply denying reality.
- chronofar 5y ago> There is plenty of room for dissent, but it stops being “dissent” when it is simply denying reality. Ah yes of course, when the common view gets the label of “reality” dissent is no longer “dissent.” /s If only everyone could see the line in the same place, but well if that were the case I don’t suppose there’d be any dissent at all.
- olliej 5y ago... cool, so if I can produce measurable numbers of objective fact is that now an opinion that is up for discussion? I mean that is a common refrain among the various anti-basic science groups, but I'm curious if that is the view you take
- chronofar 5y agoAnd it’s a common refrain of “follow the science” dogmatists to attempt to paint things as “objective facts” in a decidedly unscientific way. Just what “measurable numbers” are you referring to and what “objective facts” do you think they reveal? You would be very hard pressed to find a self respecting scientist who calls any of their work “objective fact.” There are several ways to display views that are “anti-basic science,” and you are displaying one of them. But to try and wrangle your question into what I think it was intending (though severely misled such that I needed the above preamble): Do I believe established high probability scientific consensus and recommendations can be discarded or disagreed with as mere opinion? Absolutely not. I am not at all “anti-basic science” in the way that you think I am. I think it’s quite possible to accept the scientific consensus on COVID as it exists so far and still argue currently against mandatory vaccinations in different settings.
- refurb 5y agoI worked on changing CMS regulation once and 80% of the time was spent proving CMS had the authority to do so. Not surprised by this ruling at all.
- RobertRoberts 5y ago> All medical procedures should be voluntary, or we go back to the times of lobotomy and forced sterilizations of minorities (and that's not as many decades back as you may think). Just wanted to add this comment from the middle of this discussion. There is so much irrationality these days that we need to have a solid foundation for our decision making and not based on the whims of the panicked masses.
- commandlinefan 5y agoWow... I thought it was just tinfoil hat types that were avoiding this vaccine because they were afraid Bill Gates was using it to implant a tracking chip inside them. But if healthcare workers - who actually know what's in this thing - are so vaccine-hesitant that the government has to mandate it to them, I'm suddenly worried whether or not I should think twice about getting a booster (or worse, giving it to my children).
- HyperRational 5y agoAMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19 https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19 https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-sur... Just because someone works in Medicine doesn't mean they are intelligent.
- shantnutiwari 5y agoAs a Britisher, is there an ELI5 explanation on why so many Americans are opposed to the vaccination, even educated people working in healthcare? It all seems very bizarre to me...
- kevingadd 5y agoPeople dying from the virus is useful to an opposition party when they want to argue that the ruling party is doing a bad job and should be replaced. Things like vaccines also threaten the status of people who use the virus in order to extract money from their audiences, like megachurch preachers and snake oil salesmen. Some people got really wealthy off Ivermectin and HCQ prescriptions during this whole thing.
- _fat_santa 5y agoThe problem that so many have is that the mandates completely ignore other ways to gain immunity and the fact that not everyone can get the vaccine. Right now the one single line from the government is "Everyone should get vaccinated, it's safe an effective". To anyone paying attention it's obvious that this is not the case. Everyone should not get vaccinated, some folks can't get the vaccine. And not it's not safe and effective for everyone, some have had a bad reaction. It would be one thing if the government realized this and placed reasonable exceptions for those who either can't get it or don't need to because they have natural immunity or immunity through monoclonal antibodies. But they don't and they continue to push this one way of getting immunity. And that's where the distrust forms. More and more it seems that the government doesn't actually give a damn about these edge cases, all they want to do is check the box that says you have been vaccinated.
- cronix 5y ago*US Courts This is an international forum.
- lpcvoid 5y agoVaccines should not be a personal freedom choice. They are a life saving invention, where did we go as a society that this is suddenly up for debate? Did people forget that we eradicated Polio, Tetanus, Hepatitis etc? Where does this sudden influx of people come from that are opposed to this absolute incredible work of science?
- _Understated_ 5y ago> Vaccines should not be a personal freedom choice. I don't do personal attacks but in your case I'll make an exception: you are a fucking psychopath if you think it's ok to tell people to get a jag for something that is killing literally no one right now! We're at around 100 deaths per day right now in the UK [0] and those stats don't actually tell you if they died FROM covid or merely had covid 28 days earlier when they died (massive difference!)... completely hides the real data. In addition, there are on average 450 deaths per day from cancer [1] so where is the big gov. push to eradicate that? Here are the overall death stats in the UK [2]. COVID is a tiny fraction of it. [0] - https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=overview&areaName=United%20Kingdom https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=over... [1] - https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/mortality#heading-Zero https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-... [2] - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending19november2021 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...
- peteradio 5y agoI agree with most of what you've said but I'd hesitate to call him a psychopath. Give them the benefit of the doubt, they could be a moron.
- lpcvoid 5y agoWouldn't this imply that the vaccine is physically harmful to you? There is literally no argument against it if you don't imply that. Do you think it is? I am really interested to discuss this with somebody who isn't a conspiracy theorist, so I'd be happy if you can answer.
- olliej 5y agoAh, Louisiana, that bedrock of personal liberty.