13 ms·

I hope everyone considers themselves as working for themselves, regardless of the actual vehicle that attaches themselves to their current income stream (job or

I hope everyone considers themselves as working for themselves, regardless of the actual vehicle that attaches themselves to their current income stream (job or their own company or whatever...) Even self-employed, you still have many bosses (customers, etc). In fact _those_ bosses can be harder to fire depending on contracting terms... And you might find it harder to churn out the sales to maintain a steady income stream. Even company-employed, you still should frame things in working-for-yourself. What are you getting out of the relationship? Is the employer holding up its end for you? The traditional, paternalistic concept of employment is outmoded. It says your career growth should be managed by your employer (don't let it...). It presumes the work you do and your job are always 100% the same (they're not). It assumes a kind of one-sided evaluation of the employee, where the employer has all the power (very untrue these days).

voiper1 5y ago
>It says your career growth should be managed by your employer (don't let it...) Apparently, this _used to be_ a reasonable option. But "employer loyalty" is much rarer, so now it's a totally unreasonable option.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> And you might find it harder when trying to maintain a steady income stream. This can't really be overstated enough. Contracting is one of those things that sounds super easy when you first jump and you already have a client lined up. But maintaining a steady stream of work is often far more difficult than people expect. Getting consulting clients is a completely different skillset than doing consulting work. If you're not the type of person who enjoys networking, cold outreach, selling yourself, and chasing deals then the consulting life probably won't be as fun as it may sound on the internet.
- jasonkester 5y ago
  You can get around this by simply interviewing for a regular dev gig, then telling them you’d prefer to come on board on a contract. That’s how I’ve negotiated my last several gigs, and it nicely sidesteps the business development issue.
  - quickthrower2 5y ago
    That’s a different thing though? That’s contracting. There are even such contracts day rates on job sites so no need to bait/switch.
  - DnDGrognard 5y ago
    But from a UK perspective the premium in the USA for contracting like this is rather low - and you pay both sides of the SS tax.
- tjader 5y ago
  I wonder if something like an agent could help with that. In many freelance-heavy professions, like music and acting, having an agent handle this part of business seems to be the default. Is there something similar in tech?
  - claytonjy 5y ago
    I had a similar thought recently; I'd gladly pay 15% to someone that can consistently find me interesting work that pays well.
    - jpindar 5y ago
      I'd pay more than that to anyone who can find me any remote work.
      - claytonjy 5y ago
        I see from your profile you work in hardware/firmware; I'm guessing the remote wave hasn't disrupted those roles the way it has for software folks?
        jpindar 5y ago
        Yeah, I think a lot of engineering managers still think it's impractical. It worked out well for me on a few projects, but I got them from people I had previously worked with in person. However, I'd be fine with any kind of work, it doesn't have to be firmware.
        HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
        It has made a dent, but it's slow going. In my previous position we built a lot of wearable devices so having a dev system at home was no problem since they're portable by definition. Likewise at my current position, we have larger, but still easily movable development/debug systems since the product I'm working on fits on a desktop. Takes up more room with everything splayed out on a back plate, but still fits on a tabletop. But going back two jobs where the machines we built were large, very complex and floorstanding, it would be much more difficult. It's also much easier when the hardware is stable. When you're still in the "bring up" phase, there's a lot of shipping hardware back and forth, or occasional office days together if feasible, especially if you need a $70,000 tool that the company doesn't want you taking home. As the pandemic has progressed, embedded development has adapted. The biggest reason it's likely to reverse is simply that a lot of companies prefer to have their people onsite.
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  > Getting consulting clients is a completely different skillset than doing consulting work. If you're not the type of person who enjoys networking, cold outreach, selling yourself, and chasing deals then the consulting life probably won't be as fun as it may sound on the internet. It's really not this dramatic. People need software developers. All you really need to do is let enough people - who can hire you - know who you are and what you do. I do this entirely online. I will say it's way easier when you specialize in a particular industry however.
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    > All you really need to do is let enough people - who can hire you - know who you are and what you do. Right, that's what I said: If you're not the type of person who enjoys networking, putting yourself out there, and setting up contracts with clients then it's going to be a pain to do this. > I will say it's way easier when you specialize in a particular industry however. I looked at your profile and it appears you are very specialized in a smaller (fewer overall specialists) market. Big fish in a small pond makes consulting easy. The average developer doing generalized work isn't going to have the same experience, though.
    - LAC-Tech 5y ago
      > Right, that's what I said: If you're not the type of person who enjoys networking, putting yourself out there, and setting up contracts with clients then it's going to be a pain to do this. LOL fair point. I guess I never really thought of what I was doing as networking. I don't exactly think of myself as a very extroverted, salesy kind of person. I just went about it from first principles - problem 1 was no one knows I exist, solution was let people know I exist. > I looked at your profile and it appears you are very specialized in a smaller (fewer overall specialists) market. Big fish in a small pond makes consulting easy. The average developer doing generalized work isn't going to have the same experience, though. While there is some stuff in my industry that's different (low connectivity and older users) - really the day to day work is not that much different than writing software for any other. I'm sure most people could look at their past employment history and find themselves a market.
- parksy 5y ago
  I felt the pain of losing a steady income stream before but for a different reason. I have no problem networking per-se but I did once rather blithely sign a really onerous contract with a massive soul-less organisation that buried me unpaid for about 9 months essentially reworking their entire CRM. Renegotiation was impossible, they'd just point at their massive legal department and I'd squeak and get back to work. When it was all done and dusted, every ounce of my energy had been poured into this one job for so long, the payment was like a middle finger and barely filled the hole of bad debt that had grown to cover basic living expenses, and it took a couple more months to reconnect with old clients and drum up some new work as I'd essentially fallen off the face of the planet in their eyes. It also took months to recover emotionally and start to feel some joy in life again. It was a painful, very real education, whereas as an employee you're shielded to an extent from the direct effects of this type of thing since your employer is still legally bound to pay you whether they make good or bad decisions client-wise. The risks in contracting and self employment are often subtle and not realised for many months until the trap is seen, and I doubt everyone making the transition is aware of all the tricks (net 30 EOM) etc that seem innocuous at first glance but in combination really screw contractors down to terms much less comfortable than sitting in a cubicle 8hrs/day dealing with latent passive aggression from middle management. In the current system at least we just have to weigh up which option suits us better. I was certainly unprepared, but I survived and am stronger / more experienced now with only slight residues of latent psychological damage (mostly self-inflicted). tl;dr I agree. It's not all roses. Very simple mistakes based on subtle information can have very real, very painful consequences long term and a lot of this knowledge is only gained through hard-won experience. With more inexperienced contractors entering the market it seems like a field day for unscrupulous types looking to lock in some cheap labour without the annoying hassle of traditional employment laws but that's just my hot take. I'd encourage people to think very carefully before making any transition one way or the other that's for sure.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    I used to stop working once they were 15 days late. In general the people causing payment problems were not the ones commissioning the project. The project owner would kick up a stink and a cheque would arrive the next day.
LAC-Tech 5y ago
I think you - and a lot of other people - overstate how hard this is. It's really not much of a churn to get leads in todays market. Even for someone who keeps working at small companies (whoops) in a tech backwater like me. Also clients are really not like bosses at all - even for me who is on the "software pro" - to use the Daedtech terminology [0]- end of the self employment spectrum. - There's no polite fiction that I'm going to stick around indefinitely - The 'interviews' are way shorter, because it's so much easier to fire me. I'm backing myself to deliver which is a show of confidence - It's just a much more honest and less un-equal conversation. I can survive without them, they can survive without me, but we have a mutually beneficial relationship. Not one based on power or desperation. [0]: https://daedtech.com/a-taxonomy-of-software-consultants/ https://daedtech.com/a-taxonomy-of-software-consultants/
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I think there's a certain type of person who has no trouble selling themselves and therefore finds this sort of thing easier than those of us who are most decidedly not salesmen.
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    I don't think I'm that type of person. But at the same time I'm not the shiest programmer around. All I'm really doing is introducing myself.
  - tixocloud 5y ago
    I wonder if there’s opportunity to build a community/collective/agency to help software developers manage the admin similar to a brokerage model.
    - creinhardt 5y ago
      Still involves a bit of selling, but isn't that basically UpWork's model?
      - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
resonious 5y ago
I agree with this completely. A lot of people dream about "becoming their own boss", but then let themselves get dragged around by a crappy company. Job markets do vary from industry to industry so this might not apply to absolutely everyone, but if you're suffering in your current job then I recommend finding a new one ASAP. Your existing experience gives you a lot of leverage during the job search; it's not "fresh out of college" again.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  I think there are systemic issues though. Things you can’t escape no matter where you work. One of the most insidious is minor or major reorganisations or even the company being taken over. You could jump more often to compensate but then you are a jumper. My thoughts on this are I need to network over learning the next thing or getting skilled up ready to jump the next interview hoops. The networking might reveal opportunities that are more equal rather than the “we’re hiring” “full stack” fare that is generally out there.
  - resonious 5y ago
    Similarly I imagine a client might suddenly go under or cut you off. It's pretty hard to make money 100% in a vacuum. Networking and marketing vs interview skills is a pretty solid point, though. If you prefer one of those over the other, then definitely lean towards the associated career path.
koonsolo 5y ago
I have the same mentality as you. But over the years, I came to realize that the majority of the workforce just wants to live the easy life, where everything is done for them. They want to be taken care of.
- usrnm 5y ago
  > They want to be taken care of That sounds overly simplistic and a bit rude. I want to do the work I like, which happens to be writing code, and I don't really care about the business, management or accounting. And the best way to do only the things I like is working at a big company, where everything else is done by other people. Why exactly is this wrong?
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    >I want to do the work I like, which happens to be writing code Funnily enough that's why I started working for myself.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    Sorry if I came off as rude, because that was not the intention. I'm a freelancer, and my best friend is an employee (both developers). He knows I earn a lot more money, but he explicitly chooses to stay as employee. Why? Because all of the things that you mention. Plus, when he goes home, he spends time with his family and hobbies. For me, my company is always there. Still need to do administration, see which things I can write off, etc. I used to think everyone would be like me, once they know how companies really work. But that is not the case. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what they can expect from the company, after a few years in the workforce. So I definitely don't consider your choice as wrong. It's really about which things you prefer in life.
    - barrkel 5y ago
      It's almost certainly not that simple; you are good at and enjoy (or at least don't dislike) doing some things that your friend does not. Maybe you have a larger risk appetite. And so on.
whateveracct 5y ago
100% Think of yourself as a business of one
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I feel like your comment is really empowering. I've felt like I should feel lucky to be where I am, especially at my last company, but honestly I felt like I was just being dragged and pushed around to do whatever made my employer make the most money. Working in consultancy (the fancy name for hands-for-hire), I made my then-employer between 1.5 and 1.8 million in revenue over the span of about 8 years, while earning... a fifth to a quarter of that. Recruiters have started approaching me again, really pushing me to work for banks and insurance companies and the like, trying to make me feel like I should be lucky to be granted these opportunities, really stringing me along without naming any figures. I really should take a firmer stand and take over those conversations - send me an e-mail with the companies, technologies, job openings, and wage ranges, then MAYBE we'll talk. But I'll switch jobs on MY terms, not because some salesman who doesn't even know what the fuck I do (else they would do it themselves) tells me what a great opportunity it is.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
adam_arthur 5y ago
It's a nice lie to tell yourself, at least. Unless you are independently wealthy, you are beholden to your employers. Sure, you can always jump ship and find another job, but whatever you end up in you will ultimately have to do work you don't enjoy from time to time, or play politics to keep everybody happy... or deal with a coworker you don't like. Certainly you could try to operate that way in a traditional job, but you would quickly be fired. If you were truly your own boss you would have 100% discretion in everything you do, have 100% autonomy to make design decision, technology decisions etc.
- gassiss 5y ago
  > but whatever you end up in you will ultimately have to do work you don't enjoy from time to time, or play politics to keep everybody happy... or deal with a coworker you don't like. This also applies to you if you're a business owner. Just replace the word "coworker" with "employee" or "customer" (or "partner") I think the point the person you replied to was trying to make is that you should treat yourself as your own business. Your employer-employee relationship is the same as any other business-business relationship. You're basically selling your time and you should continue to do so for as long as it is beneficial for you.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    The difference is that "customer" is usually diversified, while "employee" is usually a completely concentrated dependency. Of course, there are many (in absolute numbers) exceptions, they are very rare on the "employee" side, and not too common on the "customer" side.
  - adam_arthur 5y ago
    I agree with the sentiment that viewing the relationship that way can be empowering. It's better to be loyal to yourself and your future prospects rather than those of your employer, particularly in regards to your career. But it's dishonest to consider yourself your own boss when you are financially beholden to other people. The ability to walk away with 0 consequence is what gives you power and independence in life. If you still care about some RSU grant that vests at date Y, then you are not a free person, or fully in control of your destiny. If you choose job X because it pays more than job Y, despite being less fulfilling, same story. You may be happily captive, but captive all the same.
sharklazer 5y ago
I hate to break it to you, but you’ve got tradition backwards. We have always been bosses of ourselves, it’s only been recently we’ve been made wage slaves. Even 100 years ago, it was conceivable for most to live off the land, you owned. Now, who can own land? Otherwise I agree.
- rodelrod 5y ago
  > to live off the land Yes, in a good year. > you owned Only in the Americas. And we all know how that was made possible.
  - burntoutfire 5y ago
    > > you owned > Only in the Americas. And we all know how that was made possible. Yup. The term "landlord" didn't originally mean "a guy owning a bunch of flats for rent in London", but rather a noble who rented out his lands to local peasants.
6510 5y ago
It will be a much better world if everyone thinks like that. Who knows, we might see a similar thing unfold in migration. Who really cares for public servants who act like your master? A Turk told me one time that people there working for government use to do it... drum roll ...as a public service! As a side effect the new won respect helped promote their business. Mobility is [somewhat surprisingly] all good for economic stability and scaling. We can greatly improve the economy if everyone continues to learn and moves to a position that makes better use of their new and lost abilities. We will also have to improve the corporate bus factor and improve job quality in all possible ways that do but also those that don't cost money. One might even end up in a job that thy actually cares about rather than poorly pretend. Wouldn't that be something?
makeitrain 5y ago
My uncle owns a small business. He says it's great because he can pick the people he wants to work with and fire ones he doesn't like. I pointed out I have the same choice by walking off a bad team and finding a good one.

voiper1 5y ago

>It says your career growth should be managed by your employer (don't let it...) Apparently, this _used to be_ a reasonable option. But "employer loyalty" is much rarer, so now it's a totally unreasonable option.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> And you might find it harder when trying to maintain a steady income stream. This can't really be overstated enough. Contracting is one of those things that sounds super easy when you first jump and you already have a client lined up. But maintaining a steady stream of work is often far more difficult than people expect. Getting consulting clients is a completely different skillset than doing consulting work. If you're not the type of person who enjoys networking, cold outreach, selling yourself, and chasing deals then the consulting life probably won't be as fun as it may sound on the internet.

jasonkester 5y ago
You can get around this by simply interviewing for a regular dev gig, then telling them you’d prefer to come on board on a contract. That’s how I’ve negotiated my last several gigs, and it nicely sidesteps the business development issue.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  That’s a different thing though? That’s contracting. There are even such contracts day rates on job sites so no need to bait/switch.
- DnDGrognard 5y ago
  But from a UK perspective the premium in the USA for contracting like this is rather low - and you pay both sides of the SS tax.
tjader 5y ago
I wonder if something like an agent could help with that. In many freelance-heavy professions, like music and acting, having an agent handle this part of business seems to be the default. Is there something similar in tech?
- claytonjy 5y ago
  I had a similar thought recently; I'd gladly pay 15% to someone that can consistently find me interesting work that pays well.
  - jpindar 5y ago
    I'd pay more than that to anyone who can find me any remote work.
    - claytonjy 5y ago
      I see from your profile you work in hardware/firmware; I'm guessing the remote wave hasn't disrupted those roles the way it has for software folks?
      - jpindar 5y ago
        Yeah, I think a lot of engineering managers still think it's impractical. It worked out well for me on a few projects, but I got them from people I had previously worked with in person. However, I'd be fine with any kind of work, it doesn't have to be firmware.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
        It has made a dent, but it's slow going. In my previous position we built a lot of wearable devices so having a dev system at home was no problem since they're portable by definition. Likewise at my current position, we have larger, but still easily movable development/debug systems since the product I'm working on fits on a desktop. Takes up more room with everything splayed out on a back plate, but still fits on a tabletop. But going back two jobs where the machines we built were large, very complex and floorstanding, it would be much more difficult. It's also much easier when the hardware is stable. When you're still in the "bring up" phase, there's a lot of shipping hardware back and forth, or occasional office days together if feasible, especially if you need a $70,000 tool that the company doesn't want you taking home. As the pandemic has progressed, embedded development has adapted. The biggest reason it's likely to reverse is simply that a lot of companies prefer to have their people onsite.
LAC-Tech 5y ago
> Getting consulting clients is a completely different skillset than doing consulting work. If you're not the type of person who enjoys networking, cold outreach, selling yourself, and chasing deals then the consulting life probably won't be as fun as it may sound on the internet. It's really not this dramatic. People need software developers. All you really need to do is let enough people - who can hire you - know who you are and what you do. I do this entirely online. I will say it's way easier when you specialize in a particular industry however.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > All you really need to do is let enough people - who can hire you - know who you are and what you do. Right, that's what I said: If you're not the type of person who enjoys networking, putting yourself out there, and setting up contracts with clients then it's going to be a pain to do this. > I will say it's way easier when you specialize in a particular industry however. I looked at your profile and it appears you are very specialized in a smaller (fewer overall specialists) market. Big fish in a small pond makes consulting easy. The average developer doing generalized work isn't going to have the same experience, though.
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    > Right, that's what I said: If you're not the type of person who enjoys networking, putting yourself out there, and setting up contracts with clients then it's going to be a pain to do this. LOL fair point. I guess I never really thought of what I was doing as networking. I don't exactly think of myself as a very extroverted, salesy kind of person. I just went about it from first principles - problem 1 was no one knows I exist, solution was let people know I exist. > I looked at your profile and it appears you are very specialized in a smaller (fewer overall specialists) market. Big fish in a small pond makes consulting easy. The average developer doing generalized work isn't going to have the same experience, though. While there is some stuff in my industry that's different (low connectivity and older users) - really the day to day work is not that much different than writing software for any other. I'm sure most people could look at their past employment history and find themselves a market.
parksy 5y ago
I felt the pain of losing a steady income stream before but for a different reason. I have no problem networking per-se but I did once rather blithely sign a really onerous contract with a massive soul-less organisation that buried me unpaid for about 9 months essentially reworking their entire CRM. Renegotiation was impossible, they'd just point at their massive legal department and I'd squeak and get back to work. When it was all done and dusted, every ounce of my energy had been poured into this one job for so long, the payment was like a middle finger and barely filled the hole of bad debt that had grown to cover basic living expenses, and it took a couple more months to reconnect with old clients and drum up some new work as I'd essentially fallen off the face of the planet in their eyes. It also took months to recover emotionally and start to feel some joy in life again. It was a painful, very real education, whereas as an employee you're shielded to an extent from the direct effects of this type of thing since your employer is still legally bound to pay you whether they make good or bad decisions client-wise. The risks in contracting and self employment are often subtle and not realised for many months until the trap is seen, and I doubt everyone making the transition is aware of all the tricks (net 30 EOM) etc that seem innocuous at first glance but in combination really screw contractors down to terms much less comfortable than sitting in a cubicle 8hrs/day dealing with latent passive aggression from middle management. In the current system at least we just have to weigh up which option suits us better. I was certainly unprepared, but I survived and am stronger / more experienced now with only slight residues of latent psychological damage (mostly self-inflicted). tl;dr I agree. It's not all roses. Very simple mistakes based on subtle information can have very real, very painful consequences long term and a lot of this knowledge is only gained through hard-won experience. With more inexperienced contractors entering the market it seems like a field day for unscrupulous types looking to lock in some cheap labour without the annoying hassle of traditional employment laws but that's just my hot take. I'd encourage people to think very carefully before making any transition one way or the other that's for sure.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  I used to stop working once they were 15 days late. In general the people causing payment problems were not the ones commissioning the project. The project owner would kick up a stink and a cheque would arrive the next day.

LAC-Tech 5y ago

I think you - and a lot of other people - overstate how hard this is. It's really not much of a churn to get leads in todays market. Even for someone who keeps working at small companies (whoops) in a tech backwater like me. Also clients are really not like bosses at all - even for me who is on the "software pro" - to use the Daedtech terminology [0]- end of the self employment spectrum. - There's no polite fiction that I'm going to stick around indefinitely - The 'interviews' are way shorter, because it's so much easier to fire me. I'm backing myself to deliver which is a show of confidence - It's just a much more honest and less un-equal conversation. I can survive without them, they can survive without me, but we have a mutually beneficial relationship. Not one based on power or desperation. [0]: https://daedtech.com/a-taxonomy-of-software-consultants/ https://daedtech.com/a-taxonomy-of-software-consultants/

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I think there's a certain type of person who has no trouble selling themselves and therefore finds this sort of thing easier than those of us who are most decidedly not salesmen.
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  I don't think I'm that type of person. But at the same time I'm not the shiest programmer around. All I'm really doing is introducing myself.
- tixocloud 5y ago
  I wonder if there’s opportunity to build a community/collective/agency to help software developers manage the admin similar to a brokerage model.
  - creinhardt 5y ago
    Still involves a bit of selling, but isn't that basically UpWork's model?
    - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

resonious 5y ago

I agree with this completely. A lot of people dream about "becoming their own boss", but then let themselves get dragged around by a crappy company. Job markets do vary from industry to industry so this might not apply to absolutely everyone, but if you're suffering in your current job then I recommend finding a new one ASAP. Your existing experience gives you a lot of leverage during the job search; it's not "fresh out of college" again.

quickthrower2 5y ago
I think there are systemic issues though. Things you can’t escape no matter where you work. One of the most insidious is minor or major reorganisations or even the company being taken over. You could jump more often to compensate but then you are a jumper. My thoughts on this are I need to network over learning the next thing or getting skilled up ready to jump the next interview hoops. The networking might reveal opportunities that are more equal rather than the “we’re hiring” “full stack” fare that is generally out there.
- resonious 5y ago
  Similarly I imagine a client might suddenly go under or cut you off. It's pretty hard to make money 100% in a vacuum. Networking and marketing vs interview skills is a pretty solid point, though. If you prefer one of those over the other, then definitely lean towards the associated career path.

koonsolo 5y ago

I have the same mentality as you. But over the years, I came to realize that the majority of the workforce just wants to live the easy life, where everything is done for them. They want to be taken care of.

usrnm 5y ago
> They want to be taken care of That sounds overly simplistic and a bit rude. I want to do the work I like, which happens to be writing code, and I don't really care about the business, management or accounting. And the best way to do only the things I like is working at a big company, where everything else is done by other people. Why exactly is this wrong?
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >I want to do the work I like, which happens to be writing code Funnily enough that's why I started working for myself.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Sorry if I came off as rude, because that was not the intention. I'm a freelancer, and my best friend is an employee (both developers). He knows I earn a lot more money, but he explicitly chooses to stay as employee. Why? Because all of the things that you mention. Plus, when he goes home, he spends time with his family and hobbies. For me, my company is always there. Still need to do administration, see which things I can write off, etc. I used to think everyone would be like me, once they know how companies really work. But that is not the case. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what they can expect from the company, after a few years in the workforce. So I definitely don't consider your choice as wrong. It's really about which things you prefer in life.
  - barrkel 5y ago
    It's almost certainly not that simple; you are good at and enjoy (or at least don't dislike) doing some things that your friend does not. Maybe you have a larger risk appetite. And so on.

whateveracct 5y ago

100% Think of yourself as a business of one

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

I feel like your comment is really empowering. I've felt like I should feel lucky to be where I am, especially at my last company, but honestly I felt like I was just being dragged and pushed around to do whatever made my employer make the most money. Working in consultancy (the fancy name for hands-for-hire), I made my then-employer between 1.5 and 1.8 million in revenue over the span of about 8 years, while earning... a fifth to a quarter of that. Recruiters have started approaching me again, really pushing me to work for banks and insurance companies and the like, trying to make me feel like I should be lucky to be granted these opportunities, really stringing me along without naming any figures. I really should take a firmer stand and take over those conversations - send me an e-mail with the companies, technologies, job openings, and wage ranges, then MAYBE we'll talk. But I'll switch jobs on MY terms, not because some salesman who doesn't even know what the fuck I do (else they would do it themselves) tells me what a great opportunity it is.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

adam_arthur 5y ago

It's a nice lie to tell yourself, at least. Unless you are independently wealthy, you are beholden to your employers. Sure, you can always jump ship and find another job, but whatever you end up in you will ultimately have to do work you don't enjoy from time to time, or play politics to keep everybody happy... or deal with a coworker you don't like. Certainly you could try to operate that way in a traditional job, but you would quickly be fired. If you were truly your own boss you would have 100% discretion in everything you do, have 100% autonomy to make design decision, technology decisions etc.

gassiss 5y ago
> but whatever you end up in you will ultimately have to do work you don't enjoy from time to time, or play politics to keep everybody happy... or deal with a coworker you don't like. This also applies to you if you're a business owner. Just replace the word "coworker" with "employee" or "customer" (or "partner") I think the point the person you replied to was trying to make is that you should treat yourself as your own business. Your employer-employee relationship is the same as any other business-business relationship. You're basically selling your time and you should continue to do so for as long as it is beneficial for you.
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  The difference is that "customer" is usually diversified, while "employee" is usually a completely concentrated dependency. Of course, there are many (in absolute numbers) exceptions, they are very rare on the "employee" side, and not too common on the "customer" side.
- adam_arthur 5y ago
  I agree with the sentiment that viewing the relationship that way can be empowering. It's better to be loyal to yourself and your future prospects rather than those of your employer, particularly in regards to your career. But it's dishonest to consider yourself your own boss when you are financially beholden to other people. The ability to walk away with 0 consequence is what gives you power and independence in life. If you still care about some RSU grant that vests at date Y, then you are not a free person, or fully in control of your destiny. If you choose job X because it pays more than job Y, despite being less fulfilling, same story. You may be happily captive, but captive all the same.

sharklazer 5y ago

I hate to break it to you, but you’ve got tradition backwards. We have always been bosses of ourselves, it’s only been recently we’ve been made wage slaves. Even 100 years ago, it was conceivable for most to live off the land, you owned. Now, who can own land? Otherwise I agree.

rodelrod 5y ago
> to live off the land Yes, in a good year. > you owned Only in the Americas. And we all know how that was made possible.
- burntoutfire 5y ago
  > > you owned > Only in the Americas. And we all know how that was made possible. Yup. The term "landlord" didn't originally mean "a guy owning a bunch of flats for rent in London", but rather a noble who rented out his lands to local peasants.

6510 5y ago

It will be a much better world if everyone thinks like that. Who knows, we might see a similar thing unfold in migration. Who really cares for public servants who act like your master? A Turk told me one time that people there working for government use to do it... drum roll ...as a public service! As a side effect the new won respect helped promote their business. Mobility is [somewhat surprisingly] all good for economic stability and scaling. We can greatly improve the economy if everyone continues to learn and moves to a position that makes better use of their new and lost abilities. We will also have to improve the corporate bus factor and improve job quality in all possible ways that do but also those that don't cost money. One might even end up in a job that thy actually cares about rather than poorly pretend. Wouldn't that be something?

makeitrain 5y ago

My uncle owns a small business. He says it's great because he can pick the people he wants to work with and fire ones he doesn't like. I pointed out I have the same choice by walking off a bad team and finding a good one.