12 ms·

“It's not peaches and cream either for men”

120 points by akdas 5y ago

winternett 5y ago
I have a friend who is preparing himself for divorce and he is terrified of what may happen. As I tried to counsel him a bit to help him down from the worry ladder, I thought to myself how scary it is that even despite our current point in history, divorce has rarely if ever worked well for men, and most of what I say to console him is likely meaningless comfort. With all the problems in the world, worry is what kills the most of us. I manage it by only focusing on what I can control and by staying out of the spotlight of scrutiny and shame as a man myself. It's probably also the reason why I've chosen to not get married unfortunately as well to this day.
- akdas 5y ago
  This is another reason we need to be fighting for economic reform. Divorce will never be pleasant, but ensuring economic self-sufficiency for everyone, at least finances will be out of the picture in these separations. Another way for us to create a society that supports men.
- JasonCannon 5y ago
  If he is terrified because of custody, I suggest you/him read this https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/67xa50/why_does_custody_leave_favor_women_is_it_because/dgu35xq/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=MensLib&utm_content=t5_38jid https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/67xa50/why_does_cu...
  - orwin 5y ago
    Funnily enough, this post relate a bit to my family's experience, despite not living in the US. The older male judges (and even advocates) debouting my father times and times again, the only attorneys willing to take the case being young attorneys from a lot less conservative area, and the only judge ruling in favor being a younger, female judge. I've understood early that feminism was not about women but about gender perception.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - csdvrx 5y ago
      > The older male judges (and even advocates) debouting my father times and times again, the only attorneys willing to take the case being young attorneys from a lot less conservative area, and the only judge ruling in favor being a younger, female judge And the fact that a young female judge ruled in his favor should tell you that society is still improving: feminism was necessary at one point, like BLM currently is, but the goal is not to favor a specific gender or ethnicity (or whatever) but to create a level playing field for all! This is the road to progress! We aren't there yet, and it will certainly take a long time as social progress is very slow and many cultures and society are extremely conservative - even those you would think beyond that: simply look at how Europe decries what we do here in America as "wokeism", and you'll understand they've still got a long way to go... However, I see a lot of signs that it's not just a vain hope: the world is improving, on many indicators. It's a slow tide that'll lift all boats. It may hit first those of us who live in America, but everyone will eventually benefit from social progress.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  I'd move to Reno and hire Marilyn York if I had to divorce, her ted talk is a good use of ten minutes: https://www.ted.com/talks/marilyn_york_what_representing_men_in_divorce_taught_me_about_fatherhood/transcript?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/marilyn_york_what_representing_men...
- _3u10 5y ago
  There are two things the higher income earner of a divorce needs to know: No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. If it flies, floats, or f's, it's cheaper to rent it. As soon as he is back in the saddle he'll forget all about it.
yboris 5y ago
I have not read this, but I really like the philosopher David Benatar. A book he wrote The Second Sexism: Discrimination Against Men and Boys may be interesting. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007VJU7C4/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i4 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007VJU7C4/ref=dbs_a_def_r... I like his book "Better Never to Have Been"
johncena33 5y ago
As a brown immigrant man, most of the sublte form of racisms I face come from previleged white women. My hypothesis is unchecked narrative of victimization is enabling racism. Most of these women don't probably think they are doing anything wrong to begin with since it's women empowerment.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  Some get so used to special treatment[1] that they expect it at all times. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect
- 88840-8855 5y ago
  It is not very subtile. I am a German dude with Russian roots. When I write in my tinder profile that I have Russian roots, I get nearly 0 matched from German girls. When I remove that sentence (same pics, the rest of the profile is same) then I get matches from German girls. A few weeks ago I wrote that I have British roots and I got flooded with matches. Not sure of the algorithm was showing my profile more or just girls are racist towards some nations.
didibus 5y ago
While I agree with most of the suggestions in the article: support racial justice, have better support systems for men, denounce and resist the tough masculinity expectations, etc. I also can't help myself but point out that it is very bad to extrapolate from a sample of outliers. There might be some lessons to learn from the experience of a few transgender men, but I'm not sure they speak towards the experience of cis gendered men or women, they most likely speak more towards the experience of transgender men.
- Invictus0 5y ago
  It feels as though men are awarded so little respect and credibility on the subject of gender issues that the only way the enlightened reader could palatably sympathize with a man is through the lens of the transgendered. It's not as if men haven't been saying these same things for years.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    It's more that it's the closest thing we have to an A/B test on the matter.
    - akdas 5y ago
      This is exactly why I expanded on the original article! I have been advocating for all the same interventions, but to hear it from those who have experienced both worlds is a great affirmation of my one-sided experience.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      While the idea sounds reasonable, it seems a bit tone deaf. Feminism and racial justice is all about listening to minorities and not silencing their voices. But when it comes to men, we rely on the experience of a very specific group of people. With all the respect I have for these men, I don't think their experience should be considered representative of the experience of cis men in general. Just like cis men wouldn't be representative of the experience of non-cis men. Or men representative of the experience of women. At least now I understand a bit more the frustration that people feel when they're not represented properly or not taken seriously. That's a nice side effect, and maybe was the whole point of the article. But it still leaves a bad taste.
irrational 5y ago
> there was a space and place you could talk about your feelings. In the last, you know, 10 years or so [post-transition] I can’t find those spaces necessarily for men, and I don’t know if men necessarily make those spaces for each other. I know that I am not interested in those kinds of spaces. I do not know if this is genetic/nature or cultural/nurture. Either way, I have zero interest in creating or participating in such spaces. I don't know of any man in my family, friend, coworker, or acquaintance circles who would be interested either. But, I keep seeing these messages that there is something wrong with me for not wanting to create or participate in these types of things.
- emilfihlman 5y ago
  There is nothing wrong with you for not wanting to participate in stuff like that.
- akdas 5y ago
  I don't think the quote in my article suggests you need to want those spaces. But I do. Cotten does. And it's hard for us to find those spaces.
  - emacsen 5y ago
    I (a cis-gendered man) find it interesting how when sensitivity comes up, or the desire for spaces to talk about vulnerability comes up, certain people (often men) treat the suggestion as if it's a personal affront to them. It's similar to how some people react to homosexuality as if it reflects on them. "What, there are people who are attracted to the same gender?! WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT ME!?!" There are men who do like such spaces for men, but I've also seen how they can be challenging to maintain. There are a lot of feelings that come up for men, and a lot of toxic thought patterns and habits, as well as patterns that can come up around shaming others who may not feel the same way as the group. I find also that directly talking can be useful and powerful, but so can community building alongside talking, such as participating in a shared activity- building, gaming, etc. There's a need for both, and most of all, for men to feel valued just for being alive, not for any deed they perform or value they bring to others, just their intrinsic value.
Spivak 5y ago
> Some of that is on men who are already creating communities, for example by adopting the right community rules to ban toxicity and allowing (respectful) discussion of topics like mental health. Often, communities for men are taken over by trolls shifting the conversation to blaming women, instead of focusing on the problems men face in an overly gendered society. This is the biggest barrier to getting men's issue into the broader public discourse. It is frustratingly difficult to gain any traction and form communities for men's issues because men's rights appropriating misogynists use them as lightning rods organize and "legitimize" their crude hatred of women. Feminism has the same problem but managed to reach critical mass in large part by leveraging academia as a way to organize, raise the quality of the discourse and distribute it. It's fundamentally an education and exclusion problem. You need the history and literature to be taught and known by a large body of people so the movement can identify and shake off the nutjobs.
- harpersealtako 5y ago
  Though I somewhat agree with you, I can't help but think there's a bit of a double standard here with man-hating being taken less seriously than woman-hating. In the linked wapost article, there is even an anecdote where the trans man hears a woman saying "men are such a-holes" on the bus, and how the author is certain the situation would have played out very differently if the genders were reversed. Support communities for men probably attract men who are disillusioned with women, in the same way support communities for women are likely to attract women who are disillusioned with men. Is it any surprise the conversation is going to drift at some point to less-than-charitable over-generalizations about the other sex? (e.g. among sexual assault survivors) I do think there is a point there though, because there is a subtle difference between an emotional overgeneralization made by a sympathetic victim (which is probably not a good idea to censor if you want to actually help these men), and more insidious misogyny. It doesn't help that the former is sometimes purposefully mischaracterized as the latter by opponents of men's issues, however.
- ravel-bar-foo 5y ago
  Interestingly, the early suffragette movement didn't do a great job of shaking off the nutjobs. The violent rump is acknowledged in academia even now. As an example, the famed SCUM manifesto is a vile and hateful piece of work, and its author was convicted of attempted murder. But supposing that your message is not vile and hateful, the trick is to ignore the lies that people spread about you and speak the reasonable truth until you build a core audience. (Having fuck you money helps.) You will be labelled as a nutjob and outcast, but who cares, if your message is getting out?
Zababa 5y ago
I'm not really convinced by the content of the article but I'm not sure that I could provide useful or constructive criticism about that, so I'll leave that part out and focus on sharing something that helped me recently. I've always tried to be reliable and here for people around me, but had a very hard time talking about my problems. I thought that in a way I was doing a favor to these people by "giving" and not "taking". It turns out that it wasn't true, and that you need a level of reciprocity for a healthy relationship. These days I try to open more to my friends about my problems and struggles, and I feel better thanks to that. I'm not sure I have useful advice on how to meet new people though. This is a part I'll try to explore a bit more in the coming years.
throwaway984393 5y ago
I'm surprised this hasn't been flagged yet! Maybe because it's pro-man? Apparently stories about diversity and inclusion are downranked on HN (which, if true, is a pretty bad indictment of HN). https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#implicit-downranking-of-topics-around-diversity-and-inclusion https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#implic...
- Zababa 5y ago
  Users often flag stories when they think they have a high risk of turning into a flamewar. I know I do. This article seems reasonable and the initial comments were relatively constructive, so maybe this one will go well.
  - throwaway984393 5y ago
    Why would you flag a story before it becomes a flamewar? That just buries anything that's difficult to talk about, even if it's necessary that we talk about it.
    - phdelightful 5y ago
      Because I don't want to see a flamewar on HN, and by the time the war has started it's too late. As shown by this submission, it doesn't automatically bury things that are hard to talk about, it just means the submission has to generate much more light than heat, which is hard to do.
      - throwaway984393 5y ago
        There is a "hide" button next to the "flag" button if you don't want to see it. Flagging a story just because you don't want to see it is one of those things that causes HN to be worse, like downvoting a comment if one disagrees with an opinion, rather than because it's not following the HN guidelines. If it has become a flamewar, that's worth flagging, but preemptive flagging will end up reinforcing bias (like the trend of inclusion & diversity posts disappearing)
boopmaster 5y ago
Imagine someone mutilating your junk at birth and nobody taking offense or seriously believing that’s wrong, downplaying and mocking your concerns of autonomy. …Welcome to earth little man, it’s only going to get worse from here.
- karlakush 5y ago
  I don't have to imagine that. Also, I 100% agree with the people who don't believe it's wrong. I'm very happy to be circumsized and am glad my parents got it done while I was young.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  That's a problem localized to a select few countries, luckily. Sadly, in some countries women still face similar (but often much worse) mutilations as well. It's sad that these barbaric practices are still tolerated, but it's not exclusively a male problem.
  - darepublic 5y ago
    lol the poster you're replying to is talking about male circumcision. Which I think is legal just about everywhere
  - Khaine 5y ago
    And yet the only thing people decry is female genital mutilation. hence the hyporacy and double standards
    - jeroenhd 5y ago
      That's usually because FGM is much worse. However, in my social circle everyone agrees that all kinds of genital mutilation is bad, unless they're done out of medical necessity of course. I haven't personally met anyone who's in favor of doing this to kids. It seems to be purely an American and a religious practice to still do such things.
      - 5y ago
mathgladiator 5y ago
> "What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being." That hits close. That's how I have felt my entire life, and when I expressed anything else as a child I got "be a man". Now that I'm a an adult about to early retire, I'm thankful for that capacity to bear down and focus, but given my gout I wonder at what cost.
- nelsondev 5y ago
  I’ve noticed a difference in strangers’ friendliness when I’m clean-shaven vs bearded. To the point where if I notice more negative interactions with strangers, I’ll shave, and it immediately gets better.
  - gilbetron 5y ago
    It's funny, I've noticed something similar but it varies on the looks of the beard, and isn't a binary beard/no-beard situation. If I have it too short, people seem intimidated, if I have it longer and less trimmed, people seem a bit more fearful rather than intimidated. If I have it sort of medium length, but in a nice shape, people are probably the friendliest. If I have a really long, like wizard beard, then a different set of humanity is more friendly.
  - donatj 5y ago
    I am a large burly man with a beard. I noticed right away that my interactions with people completely changed when I got glasses maybe 5 years ago. Way more random conversations with people in public. Way more friendly looks. It's very interesting.
88840-8855 5y ago
In my eyes there is another factor that makes society difficult. Until today men are supposed to be big, muscular and strong. This often equals with strength, being an alpha and masculine. While women already evolved to being fat, short, tall, no matter what and yet to be accepted, being sexy, being strong and beautiful, men are not. If you are a fat guy, a short guy, a skinny guy.. anything else but tall, strong, muscular, then you are not considered an alpha male. Yes, this does not apply to all environments, but I see this in my professional life WAY TOO OFTEN. Going out to clubs or bars, being invited to house parties - it is always the same story. I say that the beauty ideal towards men MUST change asap: skinny should be better than muscular. Less aggressive hormones, less violence, less toxic masculinity.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  All I can say is that this really doesn't match my experience at all. Not to mention that the whole Alpha/Beta/Gamma thing has been debunked for wolves[1] and was never really proven for humans. I think women have it far worse in terms of how narrowly societal standards of "beautiful" are constructed. This has only started to change recently and mostly in a superficial way. [1] https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/32126 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/32126
- throwaway984393 5y ago
  What you're describing is a cultural stereotype. The same type of stereotype that is applied often to women; that they all have to have big tits, a small waist, pretty face with lots of makeup, plunging neck line, skirt, flat stomach, be submissive, smile often, etc etc. The truth is that stereotype is mostly just pushed by people trying to make money; most people don't use that as their standard to find a partner. I think you've internalized your own version of a standard you think everybody else holds men accountable to, but it's an illusion. The majority of human society does not require all men conform to an 'alpha male' persona, and different societies also have different ways of performing masculinity. Furthermore, if you go to a club, bar, house party, work, etc, there will be lots of people with different ideas about what is attractive in a man, and most of them will not be the ideal that you've set yourself up to believe. Please, go to therapy and talk about these issues. I swear to you that the problem is not with everyone else, it is the way you are looking at the world and yourself.
slibhb 5y ago
It's true that certain things are tougher on men than women. Obviously the reverse is true to a larger extent. However, I think "traditional masculinity" is mostly positive. Men are taught to deal with their problems on a personal level, suck it up, not blame external factors, and so on. Being tough is a good thing. No man is an island, but everyone (man and woman) should strive to be a promontory. Blaming society or culture or your parents or the world or God is usually not useful, even if it's true. For these reasons, I find it a little disturbing when people start talking about "support systems for men" or when men are pushed to "be vulnerable and talk about our feelings". We have to thread a needle here: we should help people who cannot make it on their own but we also need to acculturate people to take responsibility for their lives, for their choices, for mistakes and failures. It's very hard to help people who struggle without making them weaker. One way it may be possible is for parents (and society) to be hard on kids while they're young but gradually ease up on them as they age. Being tough on a 5 year old is likely to help him. Being tough on a 30 year old who has mostly finished developing may just be cruel.
- davidbanham 5y ago
  Being tough and self reliant is great. Those qualities are not abrogated in the slightest by being able to talk with others about your internal experience. You can help yourself by doing so and also help those around you in the process. The goal is not to be immune to stress and trauma. That’s not really a thing. The goal is to be able to deal effectively with adversity and overcome it. Part of being able to do that is acknowledging that you’re not a robot and employing appropriate strategies. Discussing these things with people that share common ground with you is an effective release mechanism. Releasing pressure during downtime enables mental toughness and self reliance in critical moments.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    > Being tough and self reliant is great. Those qualities are not abrogated in the slightest by being able to talk with others about your internal experience. You can help yourself by doing so and also help those around you in the process. My experience is that, yes, toughness is abrogated by "talking with others about your internal experience". Internal experience is subjective. No one but artists can really share it and when we try, we mostly just whine. > The goal is not to be immune to stress and trauma. That’s not really a thing. The goal is to be able to deal effectively with adversity and overcome it. Part of being able to do that is acknowledging that you’re not a robot and employing appropriate strategies. Discussing these things with people that share common ground with you is an effective release mechanism. Releasing pressure during downtime enables mental toughness and self reliance in critical moments. No one is immune to anything. Being tough is a huge advantage and the way you make people tough is by being hard on them. "Being hard on" is not abuse. There's room for compassion and love. But, today, as far as my experience goes, we're too far on the coddling side of things.
belval 5y ago
> there was a space and place you could talk about your feelings. In the last, you know, 10 years or so [post-transition] I can’t find those spaces necessarily for men, and I don’t know if men necessarily make those spaces for each other. We do, we just don't put labels on it, it's informal, usually unscheduled and happens in various context and settings. You're out doing X and topic Y comes up. I personally don't like the topic of safe-spaces because no space is truly safe when you discuss actual dark or contrarian thoughts.
octokatt 5y ago
Full agree. Having strict gender definitions isn’t good for anyone. I’m looking forward to people getting to be people, both emotionally supported and taken seriously at work.
adamcharnock 5y ago
When I think of spaces for men I think of my lounge, not some community centre club. I think of having a bonfire with friends. That is what I think of when I hear "a space and place". Weirdly I guess it isn't about the space or the place. For me it is about listening, showing interest, talking a little less, not judging, and not avoiding awkwardness with jokes. It is easy to make these spaces, you don't even need to find a space. Just listen.
codevark 5y ago
I believe women should be in charge of everything. Let us men draw shit, play music, watch flowers unfold, design crazy trains. Let the women sort out the details. (not saying that every woman and every man should be cubbiholed into this, but in my experience, the girls do a much better job of getting along and running things, and the men just want to experiment and think up new ways of having fun.)
throwaway13337 5y ago
Society sees the success of outlier men and concludes that men overall have the better of the lives. The truth is that the majority of males in nature and in society, on average, has a worse lives because the dynamic of being a male causes a feast for a few and a famine for most. Genetics gambles more with males than females because males can produce, rarely, a very large genetic return that females can't. This is easily explained by the rate limit of children for females but not for males. This shows up in intelligence, strength, genetic disorders, etc. Male genetics are just more varied. The average of mens lives, by rule, will therefore be worse for most and great for a few. I know this is a sensitive subject but it would be nice to have a real conversation about it. There's a lot of evidence that males are, on average, the more miserable of the sexes but their misery is ugly and ignored. They die sooner by suicide and drug overdose. They have less friends, and are more depressed. There's a lot of reasons for this but I believe genetics is at the core. Society could help here by recognizing this and trying to push against it - promoting a more social man, for example. But the predisposition is here to stay. Individually, I'd say being more compassionate and outgoing to those creepy/ugly/weird males is something we all should think to do. Society seems to give us a pass at being not nice to these guys. I certainly don't think it's right though I admit guilt at times here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis
- nickff 5y ago
  The clearest statistics which (may) demonstrate this point are that 8% of Fortune 500 CEOs are women, and only 6.8% of incarcerated people are women. There are far more men in prison than leading successful companies.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    It occurs to me that "men are socialized to be aggressive (and are rewarded for aggression, unlike women), and aggressive social traits translate well to both criminal and business enterprises" has equal explanatory power but is significantly more parsimonious than the variability hypothesis.
Tzeak 5y ago
I’m surprised there wasn’t any suggestions of positive mens spaces in the OP, nor in the comments. I’d be really interested in participating in more approachable and considerate male spaces. Does anyone have some they can share? For those interested in a pro-mens issues space, I spend some time on r/menslib subreddit on Reddit [0]. It’s specifically focused on mens issues, but in a way that actively affirms specific movements like feminism, racial equality, and lgbtq progress. [0]: http://reddit.com/r/menslib http://reddit.com/r/menslib
- akdas 5y ago
  I wasn't sure what kind of response this article would get, so I didn't want to send traffic to MensLib without some further information. I posted the article there already, and I do think that's a great forum. Even then, based on my previous experience, I see some woman-bashing on MensLib sometimes, so I think we need to do even better. Other than that one, I don't know of other such positive men's spaces.
anyonecancode 5y ago
Isn't one of the basic insights of feminism that patriarchy is bad for men, too?
- akdas 5y ago
  Yes! This was a central point in my previous article "Why men's health depends on feminism" (https://avikdas.com/2020/11/01/why-mens-health-depends-on-feminism.html https://avikdas.com/2020/11/01/why-mens-health-depends-on-fe...). You might imagine the type of misogynistic responses that one got, so I wanted to directly connect observations to recommendations this time around.
  - ok_dad 5y ago
    Thank you for writing about these issues from a perspective of affirmation and togetherness rather than negativity. Too many men try to make the issues about blaming some other group or other negative things which just harms ourselves. We need to be able to both separate our issues between different groups and be able to also understand how those issues are correlated (I believe that is the basis for intersectionality).
shruubi 5y ago
From the perspective of a straight white man who constantly deals with severe mental health issues, I don't want some kind of space or forum to have my issues heard. I recognise that my thought process that leads me to conclude that probably falls into the category of "toxic masculinity", but my issues are my own, and, regardless of whether or not I am in a "space" that allows for me to share my feelings, I personally feel that offloading your issues onto people who aren't trained professionals is selfish and can be harmful. From my perspective, what men need is to be able to destigmatize seeking professional help for mental issues.
- microtherion 5y ago
  Professional help is a space or forum to have your issues heard, though, isn't it?
  - ok_dad 5y ago
    Professional therapy is a different thing, I believe, than a close social circle of people who will listen without judgement.
    - microtherion 5y ago
      I agree, and both have their place. But I would argue that some underlying concepts are the same.
      - ok_dad 5y ago
        Yea, definitely agree! I guess I'm just not comfortable with strangers like therapists and they never let you get to know them, so I can never trust them fully like a close friend.
  - shruubi 5y ago
    Sort of, it's a space where someone who is trained to help you can do so. And I'll admit that it may be a case of I'm not understanding the details of what the original article was meaning, but I read it as "support networks" etc. I don't want to get together with people, regardless of if they are strangers or friends/family and talk about my problems. Realistically what can they do? More often than not in those spaces it is a lot of listening and empathising. If that makes a person feel better, then I'm all for that. But for me, it comes across as performative caring to make others feel good about "helping" and isn't actually addressing what my issues are or why they make me feel a certain way. I will say, all of the above is based upon my own experiences and how I feel, and isn't intended as a sweeping claim. I want everyone who has mental health issues to have access to the help they need, and if someone needs the kind of help that involves listening and empathising then they should absolutely have access to that. I'm just not sure based upon my own experience (and the experiences of other men), that a lot of men want the same kind of mental health support that is available to women.
a-dub 5y ago
i've often thought that a lot of racial disharmony could be resolved if we could try on each other's skins for a minute. i suppose this is the closest we have to such a thing. maybe the vr metaverse will be useful after all?
gswdh 5y ago
I think some of the problems in society have an obvious causation - we love differently to how we evolved. Whether it be diet, exercise or social circumstances.
Flankk 5y ago
Largest forum of white males pontificate about the fringe members of society. I'm gonna sit this one out.
- haunter 5y ago
  And funny how you just prove the point of the article with your comment
  - Flankk 5y ago
    How so?
ok_dad 5y ago
I loved the article linked, and I want to read more about trans folks (both directions) and how they saw differences in their lives, personally. Beyond that, I find it very hard to live life as a man (I can't compare to a woman's life, so I won't say theirs is harder or easier on average compared to mine) and I have been a man since birth. NOTE: I'm not looking for troll comments in replies (or for folks to try and rope me into some toxic anti-something culture/group). I understand this is a sticky subject, so please take the most-positive interpretation of my words below, as I am not a good writer or speaker. When I recently discovered, at mid-life, that I could have been a stay at home dad, I was amazed that I went through my whole life striving for a career when all I really want is to take care of my home and kids, and have someone else make the money and do the career stuff. It never even occurred to me that I could choose to do the "woman's work" as a full-time homemaker, and find a partner that had a career. Now, I am stuck being the career person for at least another 5 or 10 years (while my wife tries to build a career, which she prefers over home-making) and I have to go through daily crap that I hate, rather than spending all my time with my son and maybe other kids I could have had. I'm just lucky my wife enjoys working and wants to build a career to support our family. When I got married, my wife didn't want to change her name (for various reasons that are extremely valid) and I didn't mind that. However, I wanted to have the same name as my possible future kids because it's hard to do things like pick them up after school. So, I changed my name to my wife's last name. Lucky for me, the state that I resided in and the state that I was married in were both of the 9 out of 50 (at the time, not sure today) which allowed a man to take the last name of his wife when married (again, I am not sure about same-sex marriages so I can't comment). If not, I would have had to spend thousands and months of my time to change my name. Interestingly, I also had several people comment straight to my face (or behind my back, which I heard about) that me changing my name wasn't what a man did, it wasn't manly, etc. The biggest issue: I also have trouble finding my own spaces where I can be supported, not even just with other men. Sure, traditionally men gathered in pubs or lodges and they could talk about men's issues, and perhaps those still exist today. However, there is no club or place for a guy like me, who is not into sports or anything, and where I would rather talk about my problems and how to solve them without blaming women, getting crass about sex and women's bodies, or talking about the things I enjoy. Sure, I can go to a game store and talk to folks about my hobbies, or I can discuss things here on HN about tech, but that's not my everyday life. Also, I found that after 10 years with various "professionals", that a therapist is NOT a replacement for friends and an open environment. I want to discuss my issues with stress and anxiety, I want to discuss my marriage issues, and I want to talk about my hobbies with men who won't tell me to divorce my wife, get a girlfriend on the side, or tell me to "suck it up". I basically want to be accepted much like women seem to accept each other, and will just listen to each other even if they don't understand or don't care about some topic. I have tried to make friends with women in groups, but they are always thinking I have ulterior motives, and I don't disagree with their pattern-matching in that area because many men do have ulterior motives for befriending women. When I was in college, one of my favorite things to do was go into the dorm room next door with the 3 women who lived there, and I would sit and talk to them about various topics, I don't even remember what. I never thought about sex or relationships with them, I just enjoyed time with them as friends. After a while, other men in the dorms would tell me I should stop hanging out with them, because I would turn into a woman, or they would say "so and so is such a BITCH, why are you in there all the time? are you fucking them?" In any case, I stopped going in there, through social pressure, and to this day I regret caving to that pressure. Anyways, this was just on my lunch break, so I have to go work, but I have this empty hole inside myself that needs a social connection where I can talk and not be judged, and where I also don't get that toxic social negativity about blaming some other group for my problems. Women, feminists, liberals, etc. are all blamed for the problems I face, but I don't see anything in their platforms that say, "We're out to get 'ok_dad' and everyone should make his life harder in subtle ways". I just want to be me, and be accepted for it, and for people not to ascribe my anger/stress/anxiety as some nebulous factor of my personality only due to being a man or being some ethnicity or class or whatever. AGAIN: I do not want to get into a fight over this, here on HN or anywhere else, so please don't try to pivot my words into hating some other group or try to blame my ills on another group or person; my problems are my own and the ones that are structural in society are due to the weird things that happen when different groups interact, not because some group is trying to make my life, or men's lives, harder.

120 points by akdas 5y ago

I have a friend who is preparing himself for divorce and he is terrified of what may happen. As I tried to counsel him a bit to help him down from the worry ladder, I thought to myself how scary it is that even despite our current point in history, divorce has rarely if ever worked well for men, and most of what I say to console him is likely meaningless comfort. With all the problems in the world, worry is what kills the most of us. I manage it by only focusing on what I can control and by staying out of the spotlight of scrutiny and shame as a man myself. It's probably also the reason why I've chosen to not get married unfortunately as well to this day.

akdas 5y ago
This is another reason we need to be fighting for economic reform. Divorce will never be pleasant, but ensuring economic self-sufficiency for everyone, at least finances will be out of the picture in these separations. Another way for us to create a society that supports men.
JasonCannon 5y ago
If he is terrified because of custody, I suggest you/him read this https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/67xa50/why_does_custody_leave_favor_women_is_it_because/dgu35xq/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=MensLib&utm_content=t5_38jid https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/67xa50/why_does_cu...
- orwin 5y ago
  Funnily enough, this post relate a bit to my family's experience, despite not living in the US. The older male judges (and even advocates) debouting my father times and times again, the only attorneys willing to take the case being young attorneys from a lot less conservative area, and the only judge ruling in favor being a younger, female judge. I've understood early that feminism was not about women but about gender perception.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    > The older male judges (and even advocates) debouting my father times and times again, the only attorneys willing to take the case being young attorneys from a lot less conservative area, and the only judge ruling in favor being a younger, female judge And the fact that a young female judge ruled in his favor should tell you that society is still improving: feminism was necessary at one point, like BLM currently is, but the goal is not to favor a specific gender or ethnicity (or whatever) but to create a level playing field for all! This is the road to progress! We aren't there yet, and it will certainly take a long time as social progress is very slow and many cultures and society are extremely conservative - even those you would think beyond that: simply look at how Europe decries what we do here in America as "wokeism", and you'll understand they've still got a long way to go... However, I see a lot of signs that it's not just a vain hope: the world is improving, on many indicators. It's a slow tide that'll lift all boats. It may hit first those of us who live in America, but everyone will eventually benefit from social progress.
willcipriano 5y ago
I'd move to Reno and hire Marilyn York if I had to divorce, her ted talk is a good use of ten minutes: https://www.ted.com/talks/marilyn_york_what_representing_men_in_divorce_taught_me_about_fatherhood/transcript?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/marilyn_york_what_representing_men...
_3u10 5y ago
There are two things the higher income earner of a divorce needs to know: No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. If it flies, floats, or f's, it's cheaper to rent it. As soon as he is back in the saddle he'll forget all about it.

yboris 5y ago

I have not read this, but I really like the philosopher David Benatar. A book he wrote The Second Sexism: Discrimination Against Men and Boys may be interesting. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007VJU7C4/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i4 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007VJU7C4/ref=dbs_a_def_r... I like his book "Better Never to Have Been"

johncena33 5y ago

As a brown immigrant man, most of the sublte form of racisms I face come from previleged white women. My hypothesis is unchecked narrative of victimization is enabling racism. Most of these women don't probably think they are doing anything wrong to begin with since it's women empowerment.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Some get so used to special treatment[1] that they expect it at all times. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect
88840-8855 5y ago
It is not very subtile. I am a German dude with Russian roots. When I write in my tinder profile that I have Russian roots, I get nearly 0 matched from German girls. When I remove that sentence (same pics, the rest of the profile is same) then I get matches from German girls. A few weeks ago I wrote that I have British roots and I got flooded with matches. Not sure of the algorithm was showing my profile more or just girls are racist towards some nations.

didibus 5y ago

While I agree with most of the suggestions in the article: support racial justice, have better support systems for men, denounce and resist the tough masculinity expectations, etc. I also can't help myself but point out that it is very bad to extrapolate from a sample of outliers. There might be some lessons to learn from the experience of a few transgender men, but I'm not sure they speak towards the experience of cis gendered men or women, they most likely speak more towards the experience of transgender men.

Invictus0 5y ago
It feels as though men are awarded so little respect and credibility on the subject of gender issues that the only way the enlightened reader could palatably sympathize with a man is through the lens of the transgendered. It's not as if men haven't been saying these same things for years.
- monocasa 5y ago
  It's more that it's the closest thing we have to an A/B test on the matter.
  - akdas 5y ago
    This is exactly why I expanded on the original article! I have been advocating for all the same interventions, but to hear it from those who have experienced both worlds is a great affirmation of my one-sided experience.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    While the idea sounds reasonable, it seems a bit tone deaf. Feminism and racial justice is all about listening to minorities and not silencing their voices. But when it comes to men, we rely on the experience of a very specific group of people. With all the respect I have for these men, I don't think their experience should be considered representative of the experience of cis men in general. Just like cis men wouldn't be representative of the experience of non-cis men. Or men representative of the experience of women. At least now I understand a bit more the frustration that people feel when they're not represented properly or not taken seriously. That's a nice side effect, and maybe was the whole point of the article. But it still leaves a bad taste.

irrational 5y ago

> there was a space and place you could talk about your feelings. In the last, you know, 10 years or so [post-transition] I can’t find those spaces necessarily for men, and I don’t know if men necessarily make those spaces for each other. I know that I am not interested in those kinds of spaces. I do not know if this is genetic/nature or cultural/nurture. Either way, I have zero interest in creating or participating in such spaces. I don't know of any man in my family, friend, coworker, or acquaintance circles who would be interested either. But, I keep seeing these messages that there is something wrong with me for not wanting to create or participate in these types of things.

emilfihlman 5y ago
There is nothing wrong with you for not wanting to participate in stuff like that.
akdas 5y ago
I don't think the quote in my article suggests you need to want those spaces. But I do. Cotten does. And it's hard for us to find those spaces.
- emacsen 5y ago
  I (a cis-gendered man) find it interesting how when sensitivity comes up, or the desire for spaces to talk about vulnerability comes up, certain people (often men) treat the suggestion as if it's a personal affront to them. It's similar to how some people react to homosexuality as if it reflects on them. "What, there are people who are attracted to the same gender?! WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT ME!?!" There are men who do like such spaces for men, but I've also seen how they can be challenging to maintain. There are a lot of feelings that come up for men, and a lot of toxic thought patterns and habits, as well as patterns that can come up around shaming others who may not feel the same way as the group. I find also that directly talking can be useful and powerful, but so can community building alongside talking, such as participating in a shared activity- building, gaming, etc. There's a need for both, and most of all, for men to feel valued just for being alive, not for any deed they perform or value they bring to others, just their intrinsic value.

Spivak 5y ago

> Some of that is on men who are already creating communities, for example by adopting the right community rules to ban toxicity and allowing (respectful) discussion of topics like mental health. Often, communities for men are taken over by trolls shifting the conversation to blaming women, instead of focusing on the problems men face in an overly gendered society. This is the biggest barrier to getting men's issue into the broader public discourse. It is frustratingly difficult to gain any traction and form communities for men's issues because men's rights appropriating misogynists use them as lightning rods organize and "legitimize" their crude hatred of women. Feminism has the same problem but managed to reach critical mass in large part by leveraging academia as a way to organize, raise the quality of the discourse and distribute it. It's fundamentally an education and exclusion problem. You need the history and literature to be taught and known by a large body of people so the movement can identify and shake off the nutjobs.

harpersealtako 5y ago
Though I somewhat agree with you, I can't help but think there's a bit of a double standard here with man-hating being taken less seriously than woman-hating. In the linked wapost article, there is even an anecdote where the trans man hears a woman saying "men are such a-holes" on the bus, and how the author is certain the situation would have played out very differently if the genders were reversed. Support communities for men probably attract men who are disillusioned with women, in the same way support communities for women are likely to attract women who are disillusioned with men. Is it any surprise the conversation is going to drift at some point to less-than-charitable over-generalizations about the other sex? (e.g. among sexual assault survivors) I do think there is a point there though, because there is a subtle difference between an emotional overgeneralization made by a sympathetic victim (which is probably not a good idea to censor if you want to actually help these men), and more insidious misogyny. It doesn't help that the former is sometimes purposefully mischaracterized as the latter by opponents of men's issues, however.
ravel-bar-foo 5y ago
Interestingly, the early suffragette movement didn't do a great job of shaking off the nutjobs. The violent rump is acknowledged in academia even now. As an example, the famed SCUM manifesto is a vile and hateful piece of work, and its author was convicted of attempted murder. But supposing that your message is not vile and hateful, the trick is to ignore the lies that people spread about you and speak the reasonable truth until you build a core audience. (Having fuck you money helps.) You will be labelled as a nutjob and outcast, but who cares, if your message is getting out?

Zababa 5y ago

I'm not really convinced by the content of the article but I'm not sure that I could provide useful or constructive criticism about that, so I'll leave that part out and focus on sharing something that helped me recently. I've always tried to be reliable and here for people around me, but had a very hard time talking about my problems. I thought that in a way I was doing a favor to these people by "giving" and not "taking". It turns out that it wasn't true, and that you need a level of reciprocity for a healthy relationship. These days I try to open more to my friends about my problems and struggles, and I feel better thanks to that. I'm not sure I have useful advice on how to meet new people though. This is a part I'll try to explore a bit more in the coming years.

throwaway984393 5y ago

I'm surprised this hasn't been flagged yet! Maybe because it's pro-man? Apparently stories about diversity and inclusion are downranked on HN (which, if true, is a pretty bad indictment of HN). https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#implicit-downranking-of-topics-around-diversity-and-inclusion https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#implic...

Zababa 5y ago
Users often flag stories when they think they have a high risk of turning into a flamewar. I know I do. This article seems reasonable and the initial comments were relatively constructive, so maybe this one will go well.
- throwaway984393 5y ago
  Why would you flag a story before it becomes a flamewar? That just buries anything that's difficult to talk about, even if it's necessary that we talk about it.
  - phdelightful 5y ago
    Because I don't want to see a flamewar on HN, and by the time the war has started it's too late. As shown by this submission, it doesn't automatically bury things that are hard to talk about, it just means the submission has to generate much more light than heat, which is hard to do.
    - throwaway984393 5y ago
      There is a "hide" button next to the "flag" button if you don't want to see it. Flagging a story just because you don't want to see it is one of those things that causes HN to be worse, like downvoting a comment if one disagrees with an opinion, rather than because it's not following the HN guidelines. If it has become a flamewar, that's worth flagging, but preemptive flagging will end up reinforcing bias (like the trend of inclusion & diversity posts disappearing)

boopmaster 5y ago

Imagine someone mutilating your junk at birth and nobody taking offense or seriously believing that’s wrong, downplaying and mocking your concerns of autonomy. …Welcome to earth little man, it’s only going to get worse from here.

karlakush 5y ago
I don't have to imagine that. Also, I 100% agree with the people who don't believe it's wrong. I'm very happy to be circumsized and am glad my parents got it done while I was young.
jeroenhd 5y ago
That's a problem localized to a select few countries, luckily. Sadly, in some countries women still face similar (but often much worse) mutilations as well. It's sad that these barbaric practices are still tolerated, but it's not exclusively a male problem.
- darepublic 5y ago
  lol the poster you're replying to is talking about male circumcision. Which I think is legal just about everywhere
- Khaine 5y ago
  And yet the only thing people decry is female genital mutilation. hence the hyporacy and double standards
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    That's usually because FGM is much worse. However, in my social circle everyone agrees that all kinds of genital mutilation is bad, unless they're done out of medical necessity of course. I haven't personally met anyone who's in favor of doing this to kids. It seems to be purely an American and a religious practice to still do such things.
    - 5y ago

mathgladiator 5y ago

> "What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being." That hits close. That's how I have felt my entire life, and when I expressed anything else as a child I got "be a man". Now that I'm a an adult about to early retire, I'm thankful for that capacity to bear down and focus, but given my gout I wonder at what cost.

nelsondev 5y ago
I’ve noticed a difference in strangers’ friendliness when I’m clean-shaven vs bearded. To the point where if I notice more negative interactions with strangers, I’ll shave, and it immediately gets better.
- gilbetron 5y ago
  It's funny, I've noticed something similar but it varies on the looks of the beard, and isn't a binary beard/no-beard situation. If I have it too short, people seem intimidated, if I have it longer and less trimmed, people seem a bit more fearful rather than intimidated. If I have it sort of medium length, but in a nice shape, people are probably the friendliest. If I have a really long, like wizard beard, then a different set of humanity is more friendly.
- donatj 5y ago
  I am a large burly man with a beard. I noticed right away that my interactions with people completely changed when I got glasses maybe 5 years ago. Way more random conversations with people in public. Way more friendly looks. It's very interesting.

88840-8855 5y ago

In my eyes there is another factor that makes society difficult. Until today men are supposed to be big, muscular and strong. This often equals with strength, being an alpha and masculine. While women already evolved to being fat, short, tall, no matter what and yet to be accepted, being sexy, being strong and beautiful, men are not. If you are a fat guy, a short guy, a skinny guy.. anything else but tall, strong, muscular, then you are not considered an alpha male. Yes, this does not apply to all environments, but I see this in my professional life WAY TOO OFTEN. Going out to clubs or bars, being invited to house parties - it is always the same story. I say that the beauty ideal towards men MUST change asap: skinny should be better than muscular. Less aggressive hormones, less violence, less toxic masculinity.

AlexandrB 5y ago
All I can say is that this really doesn't match my experience at all. Not to mention that the whole Alpha/Beta/Gamma thing has been debunked for wolves[1] and was never really proven for humans. I think women have it far worse in terms of how narrowly societal standards of "beautiful" are constructed. This has only started to change recently and mostly in a superficial way. [1] https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/32126 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/32126
throwaway984393 5y ago
What you're describing is a cultural stereotype. The same type of stereotype that is applied often to women; that they all have to have big tits, a small waist, pretty face with lots of makeup, plunging neck line, skirt, flat stomach, be submissive, smile often, etc etc. The truth is that stereotype is mostly just pushed by people trying to make money; most people don't use that as their standard to find a partner. I think you've internalized your own version of a standard you think everybody else holds men accountable to, but it's an illusion. The majority of human society does not require all men conform to an 'alpha male' persona, and different societies also have different ways of performing masculinity. Furthermore, if you go to a club, bar, house party, work, etc, there will be lots of people with different ideas about what is attractive in a man, and most of them will not be the ideal that you've set yourself up to believe. Please, go to therapy and talk about these issues. I swear to you that the problem is not with everyone else, it is the way you are looking at the world and yourself.

slibhb 5y ago

It's true that certain things are tougher on men than women. Obviously the reverse is true to a larger extent. However, I think "traditional masculinity" is mostly positive. Men are taught to deal with their problems on a personal level, suck it up, not blame external factors, and so on. Being tough is a good thing. No man is an island, but everyone (man and woman) should strive to be a promontory. Blaming society or culture or your parents or the world or God is usually not useful, even if it's true. For these reasons, I find it a little disturbing when people start talking about "support systems for men" or when men are pushed to "be vulnerable and talk about our feelings". We have to thread a needle here: we should help people who cannot make it on their own but we also need to acculturate people to take responsibility for their lives, for their choices, for mistakes and failures. It's very hard to help people who struggle without making them weaker. One way it may be possible is for parents (and society) to be hard on kids while they're young but gradually ease up on them as they age. Being tough on a 5 year old is likely to help him. Being tough on a 30 year old who has mostly finished developing may just be cruel.

davidbanham 5y ago
Being tough and self reliant is great. Those qualities are not abrogated in the slightest by being able to talk with others about your internal experience. You can help yourself by doing so and also help those around you in the process. The goal is not to be immune to stress and trauma. That’s not really a thing. The goal is to be able to deal effectively with adversity and overcome it. Part of being able to do that is acknowledging that you’re not a robot and employing appropriate strategies. Discussing these things with people that share common ground with you is an effective release mechanism. Releasing pressure during downtime enables mental toughness and self reliance in critical moments.
- slibhb 5y ago
  > Being tough and self reliant is great. Those qualities are not abrogated in the slightest by being able to talk with others about your internal experience. You can help yourself by doing so and also help those around you in the process. My experience is that, yes, toughness is abrogated by "talking with others about your internal experience". Internal experience is subjective. No one but artists can really share it and when we try, we mostly just whine. > The goal is not to be immune to stress and trauma. That’s not really a thing. The goal is to be able to deal effectively with adversity and overcome it. Part of being able to do that is acknowledging that you’re not a robot and employing appropriate strategies. Discussing these things with people that share common ground with you is an effective release mechanism. Releasing pressure during downtime enables mental toughness and self reliance in critical moments. No one is immune to anything. Being tough is a huge advantage and the way you make people tough is by being hard on them. "Being hard on" is not abuse. There's room for compassion and love. But, today, as far as my experience goes, we're too far on the coddling side of things.

belval 5y ago

> there was a space and place you could talk about your feelings. In the last, you know, 10 years or so [post-transition] I can’t find those spaces necessarily for men, and I don’t know if men necessarily make those spaces for each other. We do, we just don't put labels on it, it's informal, usually unscheduled and happens in various context and settings. You're out doing X and topic Y comes up. I personally don't like the topic of safe-spaces because no space is truly safe when you discuss actual dark or contrarian thoughts.

octokatt 5y ago

Full agree. Having strict gender definitions isn’t good for anyone. I’m looking forward to people getting to be people, both emotionally supported and taken seriously at work.

adamcharnock 5y ago

When I think of spaces for men I think of my lounge, not some community centre club. I think of having a bonfire with friends. That is what I think of when I hear "a space and place". Weirdly I guess it isn't about the space or the place. For me it is about listening, showing interest, talking a little less, not judging, and not avoiding awkwardness with jokes. It is easy to make these spaces, you don't even need to find a space. Just listen.

codevark 5y ago

I believe women should be in charge of everything. Let us men draw shit, play music, watch flowers unfold, design crazy trains. Let the women sort out the details. (not saying that every woman and every man should be cubbiholed into this, but in my experience, the girls do a much better job of getting along and running things, and the men just want to experiment and think up new ways of having fun.)

throwaway13337 5y ago

Society sees the success of outlier men and concludes that men overall have the better of the lives. The truth is that the majority of males in nature and in society, on average, has a worse lives because the dynamic of being a male causes a feast for a few and a famine for most. Genetics gambles more with males than females because males can produce, rarely, a very large genetic return that females can't. This is easily explained by the rate limit of children for females but not for males. This shows up in intelligence, strength, genetic disorders, etc. Male genetics are just more varied. The average of mens lives, by rule, will therefore be worse for most and great for a few. I know this is a sensitive subject but it would be nice to have a real conversation about it. There's a lot of evidence that males are, on average, the more miserable of the sexes but their misery is ugly and ignored. They die sooner by suicide and drug overdose. They have less friends, and are more depressed. There's a lot of reasons for this but I believe genetics is at the core. Society could help here by recognizing this and trying to push against it - promoting a more social man, for example. But the predisposition is here to stay. Individually, I'd say being more compassionate and outgoing to those creepy/ugly/weird males is something we all should think to do. Society seems to give us a pass at being not nice to these guys. I certainly don't think it's right though I admit guilt at times here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis

nickff 5y ago
The clearest statistics which (may) demonstrate this point are that 8% of Fortune 500 CEOs are women, and only 6.8% of incarcerated people are women. There are far more men in prison than leading successful companies.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  It occurs to me that "men are socialized to be aggressive (and are rewarded for aggression, unlike women), and aggressive social traits translate well to both criminal and business enterprises" has equal explanatory power but is significantly more parsimonious than the variability hypothesis.

Tzeak 5y ago

I’m surprised there wasn’t any suggestions of positive mens spaces in the OP, nor in the comments. I’d be really interested in participating in more approachable and considerate male spaces. Does anyone have some they can share? For those interested in a pro-mens issues space, I spend some time on r/menslib subreddit on Reddit [0]. It’s specifically focused on mens issues, but in a way that actively affirms specific movements like feminism, racial equality, and lgbtq progress. [0]: http://reddit.com/r/menslib http://reddit.com/r/menslib

akdas 5y ago
I wasn't sure what kind of response this article would get, so I didn't want to send traffic to MensLib without some further information. I posted the article there already, and I do think that's a great forum. Even then, based on my previous experience, I see some woman-bashing on MensLib sometimes, so I think we need to do even better. Other than that one, I don't know of other such positive men's spaces.

anyonecancode 5y ago

Isn't one of the basic insights of feminism that patriarchy is bad for men, too?

akdas 5y ago
Yes! This was a central point in my previous article "Why men's health depends on feminism" (https://avikdas.com/2020/11/01/why-mens-health-depends-on-feminism.html https://avikdas.com/2020/11/01/why-mens-health-depends-on-fe...). You might imagine the type of misogynistic responses that one got, so I wanted to directly connect observations to recommendations this time around.
- ok_dad 5y ago
  Thank you for writing about these issues from a perspective of affirmation and togetherness rather than negativity. Too many men try to make the issues about blaming some other group or other negative things which just harms ourselves. We need to be able to both separate our issues between different groups and be able to also understand how those issues are correlated (I believe that is the basis for intersectionality).

shruubi 5y ago

From the perspective of a straight white man who constantly deals with severe mental health issues, I don't want some kind of space or forum to have my issues heard. I recognise that my thought process that leads me to conclude that probably falls into the category of "toxic masculinity", but my issues are my own, and, regardless of whether or not I am in a "space" that allows for me to share my feelings, I personally feel that offloading your issues onto people who aren't trained professionals is selfish and can be harmful. From my perspective, what men need is to be able to destigmatize seeking professional help for mental issues.

microtherion 5y ago
Professional help is a space or forum to have your issues heard, though, isn't it?
- ok_dad 5y ago
  Professional therapy is a different thing, I believe, than a close social circle of people who will listen without judgement.
  - microtherion 5y ago
    I agree, and both have their place. But I would argue that some underlying concepts are the same.
    - ok_dad 5y ago
      Yea, definitely agree! I guess I'm just not comfortable with strangers like therapists and they never let you get to know them, so I can never trust them fully like a close friend.
- shruubi 5y ago
  Sort of, it's a space where someone who is trained to help you can do so. And I'll admit that it may be a case of I'm not understanding the details of what the original article was meaning, but I read it as "support networks" etc. I don't want to get together with people, regardless of if they are strangers or friends/family and talk about my problems. Realistically what can they do? More often than not in those spaces it is a lot of listening and empathising. If that makes a person feel better, then I'm all for that. But for me, it comes across as performative caring to make others feel good about "helping" and isn't actually addressing what my issues are or why they make me feel a certain way. I will say, all of the above is based upon my own experiences and how I feel, and isn't intended as a sweeping claim. I want everyone who has mental health issues to have access to the help they need, and if someone needs the kind of help that involves listening and empathising then they should absolutely have access to that. I'm just not sure based upon my own experience (and the experiences of other men), that a lot of men want the same kind of mental health support that is available to women.

a-dub 5y ago

i've often thought that a lot of racial disharmony could be resolved if we could try on each other's skins for a minute. i suppose this is the closest we have to such a thing. maybe the vr metaverse will be useful after all?

gswdh 5y ago

I think some of the problems in society have an obvious causation - we love differently to how we evolved. Whether it be diet, exercise or social circumstances.

Flankk 5y ago

Largest forum of white males pontificate about the fringe members of society. I'm gonna sit this one out.

haunter 5y ago
And funny how you just prove the point of the article with your comment
- Flankk 5y ago
  How so?

ok_dad 5y ago

I loved the article linked, and I want to read more about trans folks (both directions) and how they saw differences in their lives, personally. Beyond that, I find it very hard to live life as a man (I can't compare to a woman's life, so I won't say theirs is harder or easier on average compared to mine) and I have been a man since birth. NOTE: I'm not looking for troll comments in replies (or for folks to try and rope me into some toxic anti-something culture/group). I understand this is a sticky subject, so please take the most-positive interpretation of my words below, as I am not a good writer or speaker. When I recently discovered, at mid-life, that I could have been a stay at home dad, I was amazed that I went through my whole life striving for a career when all I really want is to take care of my home and kids, and have someone else make the money and do the career stuff. It never even occurred to me that I could choose to do the "woman's work" as a full-time homemaker, and find a partner that had a career. Now, I am stuck being the career person for at least another 5 or 10 years (while my wife tries to build a career, which she prefers over home-making) and I have to go through daily crap that I hate, rather than spending all my time with my son and maybe other kids I could have had. I'm just lucky my wife enjoys working and wants to build a career to support our family. When I got married, my wife didn't want to change her name (for various reasons that are extremely valid) and I didn't mind that. However, I wanted to have the same name as my possible future kids because it's hard to do things like pick them up after school. So, I changed my name to my wife's last name. Lucky for me, the state that I resided in and the state that I was married in were both of the 9 out of 50 (at the time, not sure today) which allowed a man to take the last name of his wife when married (again, I am not sure about same-sex marriages so I can't comment). If not, I would have had to spend thousands and months of my time to change my name. Interestingly, I also had several people comment straight to my face (or behind my back, which I heard about) that me changing my name wasn't what a man did, it wasn't manly, etc. The biggest issue: I also have trouble finding my own spaces where I can be supported, not even just with other men. Sure, traditionally men gathered in pubs or lodges and they could talk about men's issues, and perhaps those still exist today. However, there is no club or place for a guy like me, who is not into sports or anything, and where I would rather talk about my problems and how to solve them without blaming women, getting crass about sex and women's bodies, or talking about the things I enjoy. Sure, I can go to a game store and talk to folks about my hobbies, or I can discuss things here on HN about tech, but that's not my everyday life. Also, I found that after 10 years with various "professionals", that a therapist is NOT a replacement for friends and an open environment. I want to discuss my issues with stress and anxiety, I want to discuss my marriage issues, and I want to talk about my hobbies with men who won't tell me to divorce my wife, get a girlfriend on the side, or tell me to "suck it up". I basically want to be accepted much like women seem to accept each other, and will just listen to each other even if they don't understand or don't care about some topic. I have tried to make friends with women in groups, but they are always thinking I have ulterior motives, and I don't disagree with their pattern-matching in that area because many men do have ulterior motives for befriending women. When I was in college, one of my favorite things to do was go into the dorm room next door with the 3 women who lived there, and I would sit and talk to them about various topics, I don't even remember what. I never thought about sex or relationships with them, I just enjoyed time with them as friends. After a while, other men in the dorms would tell me I should stop hanging out with them, because I would turn into a woman, or they would say "so and so is such a BITCH, why are you in there all the time? are you fucking them?" In any case, I stopped going in there, through social pressure, and to this day I regret caving to that pressure. Anyways, this was just on my lunch break, so I have to go work, but I have this empty hole inside myself that needs a social connection where I can talk and not be judged, and where I also don't get that toxic social negativity about blaming some other group for my problems. Women, feminists, liberals, etc. are all blamed for the problems I face, but I don't see anything in their platforms that say, "We're out to get 'ok_dad' and everyone should make his life harder in subtle ways". I just want to be me, and be accepted for it, and for people not to ascribe my anger/stress/anxiety as some nebulous factor of my personality only due to being a man or being some ethnicity or class or whatever. AGAIN: I do not want to get into a fight over this, here on HN or anywhere else, so please don't try to pivot my words into hating some other group or try to blame my ills on another group or person; my problems are my own and the ones that are structural in society are due to the weird things that happen when different groups interact, not because some group is trying to make my life, or men's lives, harder.