4 ms·

> I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry. > it seems that most of them have never worked on an

by _jal 5y ago

> I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry. > it seems that most of them have never worked on an user-facing product If you have worked on user-facing products, then I think you do understand. I think you just don't like the answer. Here it is in a nutshell: In the general case, how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? And the answer is you can't, because the difference between 'telemetry' and 'surveillance' lies in the intent of the consumer of that data. Technically useful information collected in good faith today can become intrusive surveillance tomorrow with a court order, or business pivot, or just a bored insider & lack controls. Now consider the fact that the author of every stupid new piece of code out there now seems to think it is so special it deserves to be allowed to send... who knows what back to some opaque collection endpoint as the cost of executing. The only reactions in response to this mess that don't cost a huge amount of overhead are "block everything" and "have your way with me". Guess which a technically inclined user picks.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Brian_K_White 5y ago
You shouldn't have had to say it, but thank you.
brianguertin 5y ago
> how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? Granularity. Telemetry data can be privacy-respecting (e.g. anonymously aggregated) while still being useful. E.g. "143 people flew from NYC to LA this month" vs. "John Smith flew from NYC to LA at 2:00 pm on Tuesday."
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  Do you want to be surveilled? We promise it's anonymized.
  - NullPrefix 5y ago
    Would you mind setting up a 24/7 stream of your bedroom? I don't know you, so technically it's anonymized.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Hidios 5y ago
  That is true for people with the same level of access as you. The 3 letter agencies have access to much wider array of data and yours can and will be used to track people of interest and those who they deem problematic.
- kuschku 5y ago
  An example, measuring traffic flow in a city. You can do it with cameras and ID plate detection tools, which allows tracking where anyone is at any time. You can also put magnetic loops into the roads, which just tells you how many drive over a certain area of the road, without any individualized tracking. Good telemetry is like the magnetic loops. But nowadays very few implementations are that privacy respecting
  - tomohawk 5y ago
    Better surveillance: put RFID readers in the road that track the RFID tags in the tires. Then ping that against the database of who bought what tires. People won't known what hit them.
Barrin92 5y ago
>how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? For starters, consent. Telemetry generally supposes that the user opts into, either directly or by accepting the terms of using a service, and is free to walk away. I find the increasing usage of the word surveillance completely silly and ideological. If the NSA vacuums data from some underwater cable that's surveillance, when I exchange information, aware of what's being handed over in exchange for some service, that's a trade.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ahepp 5y ago
  if it's automatic, doesn't that make it "opt out", not "opt in"?
- gigel82 5y ago
  How aware can you be though? Windows has dozens of different endpoints [1] that collect thousands of data points [2], and I presume that can change at any time with an update. Who has the time to read (let alone "become aware") of the full scope of that? [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-endpoints-non-enterprise-editions https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-windows-11-diagnostic-events-and-fields https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-wi...
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    Here in the EU at least Windows walks you through privacy and telemetry settings on the first start and you get a very direct overview of what's being collected and knobs to turn it off, courtesy of the GDPR I think. I don't think changing data collection automatically is legal either. I'm all for informed consent, create laws to give users transparency and control over their data. But if users have that and they still decide that exchanging info for better services is worth it, calling it surveillance is I think not appropriate. Case in point, Vscode. I'll gladly give them telemetry access for getting a better editor.
mdoms 5y ago
> Here it is in a nutshell: In the general case, how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? By never sending PII to your telemetry system. Or if you must use PII (you don't need to) then you lock it away with proper access controls.

by _jal 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Brian_K_White 5y ago

You shouldn't have had to say it, but thank you.

brianguertin 5y ago

> how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? Granularity. Telemetry data can be privacy-respecting (e.g. anonymously aggregated) while still being useful. E.g. "143 people flew from NYC to LA this month" vs. "John Smith flew from NYC to LA at 2:00 pm on Tuesday."

shrimp_emoji 5y ago
Do you want to be surveilled? We promise it's anonymized.
- NullPrefix 5y ago
  Would you mind setting up a 24/7 stream of your bedroom? I don't know you, so technically it's anonymized.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Hidios 5y ago
That is true for people with the same level of access as you. The 3 letter agencies have access to much wider array of data and yours can and will be used to track people of interest and those who they deem problematic.
kuschku 5y ago
An example, measuring traffic flow in a city. You can do it with cameras and ID plate detection tools, which allows tracking where anyone is at any time. You can also put magnetic loops into the roads, which just tells you how many drive over a certain area of the road, without any individualized tracking. Good telemetry is like the magnetic loops. But nowadays very few implementations are that privacy respecting
- tomohawk 5y ago
  Better surveillance: put RFID readers in the road that track the RFID tags in the tires. Then ping that against the database of who bought what tires. People won't known what hit them.

Barrin92 5y ago

>how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? For starters, consent. Telemetry generally supposes that the user opts into, either directly or by accepting the terms of using a service, and is free to walk away. I find the increasing usage of the word surveillance completely silly and ideological. If the NSA vacuums data from some underwater cable that's surveillance, when I exchange information, aware of what's being handed over in exchange for some service, that's a trade.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ahepp 5y ago
if it's automatic, doesn't that make it "opt out", not "opt in"?
gigel82 5y ago
How aware can you be though? Windows has dozens of different endpoints [1] that collect thousands of data points [2], and I presume that can change at any time with an update. Who has the time to read (let alone "become aware") of the full scope of that? [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-endpoints-non-enterprise-editions https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-windows-11-diagnostic-events-and-fields https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-wi...
- Barrin92 5y ago
  Here in the EU at least Windows walks you through privacy and telemetry settings on the first start and you get a very direct overview of what's being collected and knobs to turn it off, courtesy of the GDPR I think. I don't think changing data collection automatically is legal either. I'm all for informed consent, create laws to give users transparency and control over their data. But if users have that and they still decide that exchanging info for better services is worth it, calling it surveillance is I think not appropriate. Case in point, Vscode. I'll gladly give them telemetry access for getting a better editor.

mdoms 5y ago

> Here it is in a nutshell: In the general case, how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'? By never sending PII to your telemetry system. Or if you must use PII (you don't need to) then you lock it away with proper access controls.