5 ms·

>If they make it free, they could get a big chunk of the market, especially if they actually provide it with IntelliJ level of autocomplete, refactorings, multi

>If they make it free, they could get a big chunk of the market, especially if they actually provide it with IntelliJ level of autocomplete, refactorings, multicursor support etc. If they did that, then why would anyone buy IntelliJ? I understand why Microsoft came out with VSCode. They didn't have anything to offer for developers who weren't already bought into the Windows/.Net stack. VSCode was an effort to reach out to those developers and tell them, "Hey, even if you don't use Windows, even if you've never touched C#, we still have something to offer you." JetBrains isn't in that position. Their IDEs are cross-platform (though, admittedly, some platforms are more equal than others). Moreover, their IDEs are all they have. They're not like Microsoft, where sacrificing some Visual Studio sales can be justified as a way of attracting developers to the broader platform. I really don't understand the product strategy here. Either they keep Fleet cut down, disadvantaging it in comparisons against VSCode, or they make it full-featured, and cannibalize IntelliJ license renewals. What's the long-term play that I'm missing?

miskin 5y ago
Maybe they want to sell more Space licences.
ReaLNero 5y ago
I think polyglot IDEs like VSCode serve a different niche to PyCharm, CLion etc. In a professional context, you usually end up doing 80% of your coding in one language, so it only makes sense to use an editor that semantically understands the language to amplify your coding. One common use case where I resort to IntelliJ tools is refactoring methods/classes/variables, since it feels so much safer. My personal take is that IntelliJ stands to gain a lot of developer goodwill and gets the proverbial foot in the door by putting Fleet at the forefront. I mean, even if a lot of licenses get cannibalized, they could always resort to selling user data. I don't think IntelliJ is that sort of company though, they seem pretty ethical from what I know about them.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > In a professional context, you usually end up doing 80% of your coding in one language, so it only makes sense to use an editor that semantically understands the language to amplify your coding. Another consequence of that point is that VSCode is this editor if your main language is TypeScript. At work we use VSCode for JS/TS, and Visual Studio for C#/C++ on Windows.
- nwatson 5y ago
  Fleet will likely become part of the "All Products Pack" which at this point costs $149 annually pre-tax (personal license), with special add-on integrations for several targeted cloud environments being rental add-ons. The personal license All-Products-Pack is great. I'm prevented by the license from ever expensing it but I spend every day immersed in PyCharm, IntelliJ IDEA, DataGrip, and soon GoLand. I can open as many simultaneous copies as I need on personal and work computers, Windows, macOS, and Linux.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    Given what developers are paid, I’m perfectly happy to pay for it myself to save myself the hassle of dealing with procurement.
atraac 5y ago
> If they did that, then why would anyone buy IntelliJ? I think the general idea is that it's a lightweight editor(like vscode) that stays lightweight with as many features as it can from IntelliJ. If you work on decently sized project you'll still want to use full IDE. If you want to force yourself to work on a big project with vscode, nothing is stopping you. But would you realistically switch from IntelliJ to vscode? Probably not, even though it technically supports (almost?) everything you need. In my case f.e. I'll continue to work using Rider, but I'd like to be able to open some minor html/js/other projects(like our Azure B2C Templates, or my Azure DevOps extension project which is mostly powershell) in something smaller. Currently I can do that using vscode, but I'm not a big fan of vscode itself so it's usually just annoying.
- quanticle 5y ago
  >But would you realistically switch from IntelliJ to vscode? No, of course not. VSCode's support for Java is a hot mess, and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon. But would I switch from PyCharm to VSCode? I made that exact switch at work a little while ago and I haven't looked back.
  - nobleach 5y ago
    RedHat seems to be working pretty hard to make that experience better. For a long time, there has been a need to be "somewhere in between". While Eclipse, Netbeans and IntelliJ have been all about the entire Java EE/Application Server experience. Some folks didn't need all that just to write a few Spring Boot microservices. Sure the IntelliJ Maven task tab makes things super easy. Some folks are okay with typing out those commands on the CLI. So, VSCode with syntax highlighting, auto-imports, and some smart completion is enough to get the job done.
  - vips7L 5y ago
    How is VS Codes support for Java a hot mess? For the most part as long as you use maven or gradle it works perfectly fine.
technobabbler 5y ago
IntelliJ is clunky as ef, and slow as hell. It's really powerful but feels really ancient, and isn't native on anything. I hate Java. I hope this is their attempt to completely bypass the old platform and create a new product from scratch, starting with vscode parity but eventually reaching the power of IntelliJ and replacing it wholesale. I don't know if that's their actual intent, but I can hope.
- digerata 5y ago
  You hate Java but are okay with the DOM as an editor…
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    What does "DOM as editor" mean? As in the HTML DOM and manipulating it directly? How is that an editor/IDE? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. My only experience with Java is as an user, and it's never been positive. Whether it's the applets of yore or the modern Java apps, there's always performance, memory, JRE issues and terrible, second-rate UIs. Maybe the language itself is beautiful, I wouldn't know, but the user experience is terrible.
    - 5560675260 5y ago
      OP refers to VSCode being built on web stack. But AFAIK there is little to none actual DOM manipulations after initial setup since everything is rendered on canvas.
      - mmargerum 5y ago
        at that point why don't they just use native + skia ? Seems weird to build a web based editor to then just use canvas.
        shrew 5y ago
        At a guess, they're probably sticking with it because it enables Javascript/Typescript as an interfacing language for plugins which, given the language's popularity and cross-platform nature, is probably part of the reason the plugin catalogue is so large.
pjmlp 5y ago
VSCode origins precede that idea, it was born as the Monaco editor for editing in Azure, before it came into the desktop, also the main architect behind it is Erich Gamma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGWOdN3JHU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGWOdN3JHU
Aeolun 5y ago
> What's the long-term play that I'm missing? Sell Fleet only as part of their all product pack? Make Fleet the new product for $15/month that can gobble up huge chunks of VS code developers?
cunthorpe 5y ago
> What's the long-term play that I'm missing? Bet: They’re building the core for all of their future products. Start free, gain momentum, have “pro” addons, slowly start offering products like WebStorm but built on top of Fleet.

miskin 5y ago

Maybe they want to sell more Space licences.

ReaLNero 5y ago

I think polyglot IDEs like VSCode serve a different niche to PyCharm, CLion etc. In a professional context, you usually end up doing 80% of your coding in one language, so it only makes sense to use an editor that semantically understands the language to amplify your coding. One common use case where I resort to IntelliJ tools is refactoring methods/classes/variables, since it feels so much safer. My personal take is that IntelliJ stands to gain a lot of developer goodwill and gets the proverbial foot in the door by putting Fleet at the forefront. I mean, even if a lot of licenses get cannibalized, they could always resort to selling user data. I don't think IntelliJ is that sort of company though, they seem pretty ethical from what I know about them.

Zababa 5y ago
> In a professional context, you usually end up doing 80% of your coding in one language, so it only makes sense to use an editor that semantically understands the language to amplify your coding. Another consequence of that point is that VSCode is this editor if your main language is TypeScript. At work we use VSCode for JS/TS, and Visual Studio for C#/C++ on Windows.
nwatson 5y ago
Fleet will likely become part of the "All Products Pack" which at this point costs $149 annually pre-tax (personal license), with special add-on integrations for several targeted cloud environments being rental add-ons. The personal license All-Products-Pack is great. I'm prevented by the license from ever expensing it but I spend every day immersed in PyCharm, IntelliJ IDEA, DataGrip, and soon GoLand. I can open as many simultaneous copies as I need on personal and work computers, Windows, macOS, and Linux.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Given what developers are paid, I’m perfectly happy to pay for it myself to save myself the hassle of dealing with procurement.

atraac 5y ago

> If they did that, then why would anyone buy IntelliJ? I think the general idea is that it's a lightweight editor(like vscode) that stays lightweight with as many features as it can from IntelliJ. If you work on decently sized project you'll still want to use full IDE. If you want to force yourself to work on a big project with vscode, nothing is stopping you. But would you realistically switch from IntelliJ to vscode? Probably not, even though it technically supports (almost?) everything you need. In my case f.e. I'll continue to work using Rider, but I'd like to be able to open some minor html/js/other projects(like our Azure B2C Templates, or my Azure DevOps extension project which is mostly powershell) in something smaller. Currently I can do that using vscode, but I'm not a big fan of vscode itself so it's usually just annoying.

quanticle 5y ago
>But would you realistically switch from IntelliJ to vscode? No, of course not. VSCode's support for Java is a hot mess, and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon. But would I switch from PyCharm to VSCode? I made that exact switch at work a little while ago and I haven't looked back.
- nobleach 5y ago
  RedHat seems to be working pretty hard to make that experience better. For a long time, there has been a need to be "somewhere in between". While Eclipse, Netbeans and IntelliJ have been all about the entire Java EE/Application Server experience. Some folks didn't need all that just to write a few Spring Boot microservices. Sure the IntelliJ Maven task tab makes things super easy. Some folks are okay with typing out those commands on the CLI. So, VSCode with syntax highlighting, auto-imports, and some smart completion is enough to get the job done.
- vips7L 5y ago
  How is VS Codes support for Java a hot mess? For the most part as long as you use maven or gradle it works perfectly fine.

technobabbler 5y ago

IntelliJ is clunky as ef, and slow as hell. It's really powerful but feels really ancient, and isn't native on anything. I hate Java. I hope this is their attempt to completely bypass the old platform and create a new product from scratch, starting with vscode parity but eventually reaching the power of IntelliJ and replacing it wholesale. I don't know if that's their actual intent, but I can hope.

digerata 5y ago
You hate Java but are okay with the DOM as an editor…
- technobabbler 5y ago
  What does "DOM as editor" mean? As in the HTML DOM and manipulating it directly? How is that an editor/IDE? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. My only experience with Java is as an user, and it's never been positive. Whether it's the applets of yore or the modern Java apps, there's always performance, memory, JRE issues and terrible, second-rate UIs. Maybe the language itself is beautiful, I wouldn't know, but the user experience is terrible.
  - 5560675260 5y ago
    OP refers to VSCode being built on web stack. But AFAIK there is little to none actual DOM manipulations after initial setup since everything is rendered on canvas.
    - mmargerum 5y ago
      at that point why don't they just use native + skia ? Seems weird to build a web based editor to then just use canvas.
      - shrew 5y ago
        At a guess, they're probably sticking with it because it enables Javascript/Typescript as an interfacing language for plugins which, given the language's popularity and cross-platform nature, is probably part of the reason the plugin catalogue is so large.

pjmlp 5y ago

VSCode origins precede that idea, it was born as the Monaco editor for editing in Azure, before it came into the desktop, also the main architect behind it is Erich Gamma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGWOdN3JHU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGWOdN3JHU

Aeolun 5y ago

> What's the long-term play that I'm missing? Sell Fleet only as part of their all product pack? Make Fleet the new product for $15/month that can gobble up huge chunks of VS code developers?

cunthorpe 5y ago

> What's the long-term play that I'm missing? Bet: They’re building the core for all of their future products. Start free, gain momentum, have “pro” addons, slowly start offering products like WebStorm but built on top of Fleet.