5 ms·

> I also find the social issues of the US (unequality, racism) more disturbing than the ones there are in Europe. On the contrary, when I lived in Europe (Rome

by umvi 5y ago

> I also find the social issues of the US (unequality, racism) more disturbing than the ones there are in Europe. On the contrary, when I lived in Europe (Rome) I found it disturbing that the overt racism and inequality was not acknowledged by anyone. I got the impression Italians believed that racism only existed in America and that they themselves couldn't possibly be racist (even though moments earlier they were disparaging east European immigrants)

qnsi 5y ago
you know east europeans are white? anyway lots of italians come to my eastern european city and we make it extra obvious we are racist against them so its even
- nix23 5y ago
  Rome was NOT made by Italians (but most probably albans)...but hey they are really proud of the roman empire ;) But do you know were the word "slave" comes from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology >>Use of the word arose during the Early Medieval Period, when Slavs from Central and Eastern Europe (Saqaliba) were frequently enslaved by Moors from the Iberian Peninsula and North Africa. So brown/black peoples enslaved white peoples, but hey the US only thinks about sold black's by black peoples only, a slave can only be black..end of discussion.
  - Asooka 5y ago
    Well, let's not put all Blacks under the same denominator, that sounds a bit racist. As a Slav, I hold no ill will towards them acting in a way that was appropriate for the time period. That said, I do find it ironic, that we had to remove all mentions of master/slave from our software products, so as to not offend our American customers. Again, I don't mind, but it's funny when you think about it.
    - seoulmetro 5y ago
      You didn't have to. You wanted to. Lots of people wanted to. For no real reason other than to fit in or appease a mob. There's no "have to". You don't "have to" do much these days. I'm not letting people's stupid actions be marked as a "have to" when they're most definitely still stupid and still neither required nor appropriate. "I had to" rob the liquor store.
- Asooka 5y ago
  If you mean Slavs, the Coalition of Communities of Colour actually formally recognises us as people of colour. European everyday racism feels a bit different than American racism. It's the end result of many cultures interacting over centuries and accruing generational memories of when X group screwed them over. Meaning, everyone is equally racist to one another. Also, it's not based so much on physical race, as on group belonging. For example, often people from within a single country would be prejudiced to one another, based on the specific city one is born in. Depending on how the country borders get redrawn and what the government decides to call the ethnicity of people within them, those relations can technically flip between being racist and not. Basically, we can be casually racist with each other, because it's between equals. Americans can't, because it's between two groups, one of which used to inflict horrible human rights abuses over the other.
  - seoulmetro 5y ago
    >Coalition of Communities of Colour Jesus. Talk about inventing problems from problems.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    America has many races. The majority are white or hispanic not black. The opportunities for someone who is black are so much more in America vs Europe. America is a big place. When you judge someone by birth location you are also judging someone based on race. Would you accept an Indian person born in Moscow as Russian or would you treat them as Indian? This is harmful..
  - qnsi 5y ago
    so are Americans with Polish heritage people of color? There are about 3% of Americans that self-identify as Polish-Americans
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    > Coalition of Communities of Colour They probably would recognize me too, but I would decline association to be honest, regardless if it is the US or British variant. Also racism to me has a very specific definition. To believe people to be inferior because of extrinsic properties or ethnicity. Not every form of prejudice is racism of course. The only person I have ever met that though I was too brown was my dermatologist. Sure, others face racism, but it is also used to justify discrimination and I think that is moving backwards. The US has better understanding on multiculturalism but they changed course recently. It is progress as that is inevitable, but I don't see it improving anything.
drdaeman 5y ago
I guess because "racism" is a probable misnomer. Especially in countries where most people are of the same race, but there are multiple different ethnicities or cultures.
atmosx 5y ago
Italians are not racists, Italians are chauvinists. They are acting against other Italians as well. If you're not local (from the village, town, municipality), you're _not local_ and that's about it. It is part of their culture. The problem runs deep and is shared by countries in the North border (Switzerland, Austria, France). The history of institutional racism in Europe is different. The levels of institutional racism and violence the US went through in the 20th century are extreme to whatever happened in Europe, barring notable examples (Nazi Germany).
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  And note that the Nazis drew specific inspiration from US racists.
  - Turing_Machine 5y ago
    Europeans were committing atrocities against Jews for centuries before the United States even existed.
- Turing_Machine 5y ago
  > The levels of institutional racism and violence the US went through in the 20th century are extreme to whatever happened in Europe, barring notable examples (Nazi Germany). Ask a typical European what they think of Roma ("gypsies"), then get back to me.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    Yeah, it boggles my mind how many people (here in the UK) who are otherwise very tolerant of other races are openly and unapologetically racist against travelling peoples.
  - t0suj4 5y ago
    IMO The problem people have with gypsies is that they're distinctly different culture. They have found ways to benefit from the social system without giving anything in. That naturally frustrates many taxpayers. I blame the faulty social system for that. For example, if you never work a day in your life you get higher pension payout as in that case it is based on nationwide average wage. It basically penalizes getting a job.
hagbard_c 5y ago
With all the talk about the USA and Europe being such horribly racist places I do have to wonder why so many people who should expect to be subject to said racism are literally dying to get to just those places. I suspect this is because they think life will be better in the USA and Europa than it is in the even more horrible places they came from. Seen in that light, and compared to the way things were in the USA and Europe not even half a century ago all the talk of these places being racist hellholes really does not seem to fit reality - and that is stating it mildly. The more things are called racist, the less people will care. OK, so I'm racist for making rice pudding? Fine, so be it.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  > I suspect this is because they think life will be better in the USA and Europa than it is in the even more horrible places they came from Not always, but often times the reason their country is a horrible place to live is because of historical racism in the form of colonisation on the part of European countries or the USA. And it goes without saying that just because something is worse in place A doesn't mean it isn't bad in place B.
  - hagbard_c 5y ago
    What about the "historical racism" from, say, Zulu versus Xhosa? Toltec vs. Chichimec? Chichimec vs. what what was to become the Aztec? Aztec vs. just about any other group they managed to conquer (and sacrifice by pulling their hearts out of their living bodies)? Arabs versus Africans of many colours? Arabs versus whites? The slavers of the Barbary coast - that is, (Islamic) pirates who operated from the coasts of northern Africa - captured and sold millions of light-skinned Europeans on the slave markets in what now is Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco, why aren't they up in arms against this "historic racism"?. It took the French conquest of the area to finally put a stop to those slave raids - maybe the French were justified in conquering a region from where pirates had been raiding French (and Italian and Dutch and British and even Scandinavian) villages from where they took slaves to the markets of Tripoli? The Ottoman empire was rife with slave trade but not much is made of that for some reason, why? What happened to the Picts who inhabited the British islands? The Irish and Italians were subject to racism and enslavement but I have yet to see any of them call for retributions, why is this? Do you know the etymology of the word "slave", that is comes from the Slavic tribes who inhabited central Europe and were enslaved by Arabs: 'The Slav was the most prized of human goods. With increased strength outside his marshy land of origin, hardened to the utmost against all privation, industrious, content with little, good-humoured, and cheerful, he filled the slave markets of Europe, Asia, and Africa. It must be remembered that for every Slavonic slave who reached his destination, at least ten succumbed to inhuman treatment during transport and to the heat of the climate. Indeed Ibrāhīm (tenth century), himself in all probability a slave dealer, says: "And the Slavs cannot travel to Lombardy on account of the heat which is fatal to them." Hence their high price.' (The Cambridge Medieval History, Vol. II, 1913). I can go on forever for the history of humanity is indeed a sordid affair, riddled with accounts of cruelty and - seen through modern western eyes steeped in Judeo-Christian morality - truly proof of the fallen nature of the human race. I won't since it doesn't change the fact that societies and cultures rise and fall through conquest, then and now. Claiming, as you do, that "...the reason their country is a horrible place to live is because of historical racism in the form of colonisation on the part of European countries or the USA" is myopic, it stems from a vision of the world as a European/American-centric place where all roads lead to Europe and America. This self-flagellation which is so popular in many western cultures needs to stop or those same cultures will succumb to the process of history which gave rise to them in that other cultures will take over. Many of those cultures don't care about racism - they are openly racist - and have no qualms about slavery.

by umvi 5y ago

qnsi 5y ago

you know east europeans are white? anyway lots of italians come to my eastern european city and we make it extra obvious we are racist against them so its even

nix23 5y ago
Rome was NOT made by Italians (but most probably albans)...but hey they are really proud of the roman empire ;) But do you know were the word "slave" comes from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology >>Use of the word arose during the Early Medieval Period, when Slavs from Central and Eastern Europe (Saqaliba) were frequently enslaved by Moors from the Iberian Peninsula and North Africa. So brown/black peoples enslaved white peoples, but hey the US only thinks about sold black's by black peoples only, a slave can only be black..end of discussion.
- Asooka 5y ago
  Well, let's not put all Blacks under the same denominator, that sounds a bit racist. As a Slav, I hold no ill will towards them acting in a way that was appropriate for the time period. That said, I do find it ironic, that we had to remove all mentions of master/slave from our software products, so as to not offend our American customers. Again, I don't mind, but it's funny when you think about it.
  - seoulmetro 5y ago
    You didn't have to. You wanted to. Lots of people wanted to. For no real reason other than to fit in or appease a mob. There's no "have to". You don't "have to" do much these days. I'm not letting people's stupid actions be marked as a "have to" when they're most definitely still stupid and still neither required nor appropriate. "I had to" rob the liquor store.
Asooka 5y ago
If you mean Slavs, the Coalition of Communities of Colour actually formally recognises us as people of colour. European everyday racism feels a bit different than American racism. It's the end result of many cultures interacting over centuries and accruing generational memories of when X group screwed them over. Meaning, everyone is equally racist to one another. Also, it's not based so much on physical race, as on group belonging. For example, often people from within a single country would be prejudiced to one another, based on the specific city one is born in. Depending on how the country borders get redrawn and what the government decides to call the ethnicity of people within them, those relations can technically flip between being racist and not. Basically, we can be casually racist with each other, because it's between equals. Americans can't, because it's between two groups, one of which used to inflict horrible human rights abuses over the other.
- seoulmetro 5y ago
  >Coalition of Communities of Colour Jesus. Talk about inventing problems from problems.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  America has many races. The majority are white or hispanic not black. The opportunities for someone who is black are so much more in America vs Europe. America is a big place. When you judge someone by birth location you are also judging someone based on race. Would you accept an Indian person born in Moscow as Russian or would you treat them as Indian? This is harmful..
- qnsi 5y ago
  so are Americans with Polish heritage people of color? There are about 3% of Americans that self-identify as Polish-Americans
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  > Coalition of Communities of Colour They probably would recognize me too, but I would decline association to be honest, regardless if it is the US or British variant. Also racism to me has a very specific definition. To believe people to be inferior because of extrinsic properties or ethnicity. Not every form of prejudice is racism of course. The only person I have ever met that though I was too brown was my dermatologist. Sure, others face racism, but it is also used to justify discrimination and I think that is moving backwards. The US has better understanding on multiculturalism but they changed course recently. It is progress as that is inevitable, but I don't see it improving anything.

drdaeman 5y ago

I guess because "racism" is a probable misnomer. Especially in countries where most people are of the same race, but there are multiple different ethnicities or cultures.

atmosx 5y ago

Italians are not racists, Italians are chauvinists. They are acting against other Italians as well. If you're not local (from the village, town, municipality), you're _not local_ and that's about it. It is part of their culture. The problem runs deep and is shared by countries in the North border (Switzerland, Austria, France). The history of institutional racism in Europe is different. The levels of institutional racism and violence the US went through in the 20th century are extreme to whatever happened in Europe, barring notable examples (Nazi Germany).

dragonwriter 5y ago
And note that the Nazis drew specific inspiration from US racists.
- Turing_Machine 5y ago
  Europeans were committing atrocities against Jews for centuries before the United States even existed.
Turing_Machine 5y ago
> The levels of institutional racism and violence the US went through in the 20th century are extreme to whatever happened in Europe, barring notable examples (Nazi Germany). Ask a typical European what they think of Roma ("gypsies"), then get back to me.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  Yeah, it boggles my mind how many people (here in the UK) who are otherwise very tolerant of other races are openly and unapologetically racist against travelling peoples.
- t0suj4 5y ago
  IMO The problem people have with gypsies is that they're distinctly different culture. They have found ways to benefit from the social system without giving anything in. That naturally frustrates many taxpayers. I blame the faulty social system for that. For example, if you never work a day in your life you get higher pension payout as in that case it is based on nationwide average wage. It basically penalizes getting a job.

hagbard_c 5y ago

With all the talk about the USA and Europe being such horribly racist places I do have to wonder why so many people who should expect to be subject to said racism are literally dying to get to just those places. I suspect this is because they think life will be better in the USA and Europa than it is in the even more horrible places they came from. Seen in that light, and compared to the way things were in the USA and Europe not even half a century ago all the talk of these places being racist hellholes really does not seem to fit reality - and that is stating it mildly. The more things are called racist, the less people will care. OK, so I'm racist for making rice pudding? Fine, so be it.

nicoburns 5y ago
> I suspect this is because they think life will be better in the USA and Europa than it is in the even more horrible places they came from Not always, but often times the reason their country is a horrible place to live is because of historical racism in the form of colonisation on the part of European countries or the USA. And it goes without saying that just because something is worse in place A doesn't mean it isn't bad in place B.
- hagbard_c 5y ago
  What about the "historical racism" from, say, Zulu versus Xhosa? Toltec vs. Chichimec? Chichimec vs. what what was to become the Aztec? Aztec vs. just about any other group they managed to conquer (and sacrifice by pulling their hearts out of their living bodies)? Arabs versus Africans of many colours? Arabs versus whites? The slavers of the Barbary coast - that is, (Islamic) pirates who operated from the coasts of northern Africa - captured and sold millions of light-skinned Europeans on the slave markets in what now is Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco, why aren't they up in arms against this "historic racism"?. It took the French conquest of the area to finally put a stop to those slave raids - maybe the French were justified in conquering a region from where pirates had been raiding French (and Italian and Dutch and British and even Scandinavian) villages from where they took slaves to the markets of Tripoli? The Ottoman empire was rife with slave trade but not much is made of that for some reason, why? What happened to the Picts who inhabited the British islands? The Irish and Italians were subject to racism and enslavement but I have yet to see any of them call for retributions, why is this? Do you know the etymology of the word "slave", that is comes from the Slavic tribes who inhabited central Europe and were enslaved by Arabs: 'The Slav was the most prized of human goods. With increased strength outside his marshy land of origin, hardened to the utmost against all privation, industrious, content with little, good-humoured, and cheerful, he filled the slave markets of Europe, Asia, and Africa. It must be remembered that for every Slavonic slave who reached his destination, at least ten succumbed to inhuman treatment during transport and to the heat of the climate. Indeed Ibrāhīm (tenth century), himself in all probability a slave dealer, says: "And the Slavs cannot travel to Lombardy on account of the heat which is fatal to them." Hence their high price.' (The Cambridge Medieval History, Vol. II, 1913). I can go on forever for the history of humanity is indeed a sordid affair, riddled with accounts of cruelty and - seen through modern western eyes steeped in Judeo-Christian morality - truly proof of the fallen nature of the human race. I won't since it doesn't change the fact that societies and cultures rise and fall through conquest, then and now. Claiming, as you do, that "...the reason their country is a horrible place to live is because of historical racism in the form of colonisation on the part of European countries or the USA" is myopic, it stems from a vision of the world as a European/American-centric place where all roads lead to Europe and America. This self-flagellation which is so popular in many western cultures needs to stop or those same cultures will succumb to the process of history which gave rise to them in that other cultures will take over. Many of those cultures don't care about racism - they are openly racist - and have no qualms about slavery.