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ES -> DK -> US For me it's a mixed bag, and we will be probably moving back to Europe next year, after spending 6 years in between San Francisco and New York.

ES -> DK -> US For me it's a mixed bag, and we will be probably moving back to Europe next year, after spending 6 years in between San Francisco and New York. On the positive side, money. Software engineers make much, much more in the US than anywhere in Europe, including Nordic countries. My income tripled in the US, and my income was considered pretty high Denmark. Another positive side of the US is that there seems to be more opportunities, particularly if you are white or Asian and work in tech. My wife couldn't get a job in Europe, here she joined multiple FAANGs. On the negative side, the lifestyle doesn't really fit us: too much focus on work. The problem is not -only- longer working hours, but that a lot people center their life around their job. I also find the social issues of the US (unequality, racism) more disturbing than the ones there are in Europe.

Winterflow3r 5y ago
Thank you for the perspective! At the moment, establishing a social life has proved so difficult due to constant relocation and general difficulty of socialising in Sweden, that I'd prefer to go somewhere where at least I'd have better career opportunities in tech.
- cplanas 5y ago
  I think it's totally worth to try it. While I will be coming back soon, I am happy that I was able to have this experience. Good luck!
david38 5y ago
You don’t have to be white or Asian to get a job in tech. I’ve literally seen anyone who can code even somewhat get jobs here. You can probably be green and get a job if you know how to code.
- cplanas 5y ago
  You don't have to. It just helps significantly.
systemvoltage 5y ago
As an immigrant to USA, I think inequality is valid but I have never faced any racism or seen any in engineering jobs. It is overblown. There might be some racism in blue collar work (probably same as EU) but my observation in tech/engineering jobs is always professional.
- cplanas 5y ago
  Maybe you have been lucky. I have seen racism in engineering jobs, most typically in the form of bias or preconceived ideas of how people of certain "races" are supposed to behave, or what are their perspectives in life.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    I’ve never observed that having worked in several Fortune 50 companies. It is quite the opposite. Whites in US tech scene are being impartially treated and open-reverse-racism is more commonplace (witnessed it several times in hiring committees. It was quite shocking and blatant). I can imagine racism being rampant maybe 30 years ago in the tech scene. I am quite frustrated that being colored means I get to be put on posters, literally got a photo taken of me and the diversity/inclusion HR put it up on the company website to further their agenda which I completely disagree with. It always felt condescending to me. I want to be judged by merit and not my skin color.
    - cplanas 5y ago
      > It always felt condescending to me. I completely agree with you. Pity is a particularly disturbing version of contempt. But if you think that this contempt is only reflected in the diversity circus, you are fooling yourself. High-caste Americans (sorry Wilkerson, the simile is too good to let it go) want to virtue-signal and maybe give some breadcrumbs to the minorities they feel pity for, not put them at their level.
      - systemvoltage 5y ago
        I want to be totally clear - I don’t think “they feel pity for, not put them at their level”. That’s not what I was trying to say. Every white leader I’ve met have given me opportunities and often their higher ups are not white. The problem is the corporate HR wokeness and their agenda feels condescending to me. That’s the distinction I want to clarify.
statesandspain 5y ago
> I also find the social issues of the US (unequality, racism) more disturbing than the ones there are in Europe. I grew up in the US but have lived in Barcelona for several years now. I don't believe that racism is worse in the US than Spain; in fact much the opposite. I live in a mixed-income neighborhood in Barcelona and see far more casual discrimination against low-income immigrants and the local Roma subculture here than I've seen in any major US city. The US has historically had really bad racial policies and there are definitely still parts of the country with a backwards view on race and class, but most of the US (and certainly the parts of the country where a high-skilled immigrant might move to) just isn't like that anymore. I can't speak to the rest of Europe, but Barcelona at least seems behind here. That said, I do agree there's a lot more inequality in the US than Spain. (It seems to me though that's more about the middle and upper class in the US being much richer—the poor in Spain don't seem to have an easier life than the poor in the US.)
- returningfory2 5y ago
  > That said, I don't believe that racism/social issues are worse in the US than Spain My current theory is that the difference between Europe and the US right now is that discrimination is about the same but that in the US racism is openly discussed and criticized. This leads to an illusion that racism is worse in the US because we hear about it more. In this theory Europe like the US in the 60s in which racism was prevalent but sort of more hidden in the dominant white public consciousness.
- cplanas 5y ago
  Oh, I'm from Barcelona myself. While I agree with you that the upper class in the US is much richer than in Barcelona, I strongly disagree with you about the poor. I think very often about my particular situation, and what would have happened to me if I would have been born in the US. I come from a family that would be on the lower side of the middle class; unfortunately for us, there is a genetic illness running on my father's side of the family. In Spain, to get healthcare was never a problem; I'm not sure if that wouldn't have been an issue in the US. I see the same problem with education: while we were not poor, I am not sure if I would have been able to go to one of the best schools in my country, as I did for free in Spain. Free education and healthcare are very important. On racism, I don't wanna sound harsh, but I believe you only see less because the US is much more segregated. I am typically perceived as Hispanic by most Americans, and believe me, racism is an issue. I don't want to imagine how it is for an immigrant from Africa or Latin America.
umvi 5y ago
> I also find the social issues of the US (unequality, racism) more disturbing than the ones there are in Europe. On the contrary, when I lived in Europe (Rome) I found it disturbing that the overt racism and inequality was not acknowledged by anyone. I got the impression Italians believed that racism only existed in America and that they themselves couldn't possibly be racist (even though moments earlier they were disparaging east European immigrants)
- qnsi 5y ago
  you know east europeans are white? anyway lots of italians come to my eastern european city and we make it extra obvious we are racist against them so its even
  - nix23 5y ago
    Rome was NOT made by Italians (but most probably albans)...but hey they are really proud of the roman empire ;) But do you know were the word "slave" comes from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology >>Use of the word arose during the Early Medieval Period, when Slavs from Central and Eastern Europe (Saqaliba) were frequently enslaved by Moors from the Iberian Peninsula and North Africa. So brown/black peoples enslaved white peoples, but hey the US only thinks about sold black's by black peoples only, a slave can only be black..end of discussion.
    - Asooka 5y ago
      Well, let's not put all Blacks under the same denominator, that sounds a bit racist. As a Slav, I hold no ill will towards them acting in a way that was appropriate for the time period. That said, I do find it ironic, that we had to remove all mentions of master/slave from our software products, so as to not offend our American customers. Again, I don't mind, but it's funny when you think about it.
      - seoulmetro 5y ago
        You didn't have to. You wanted to. Lots of people wanted to. For no real reason other than to fit in or appease a mob. There's no "have to". You don't "have to" do much these days. I'm not letting people's stupid actions be marked as a "have to" when they're most definitely still stupid and still neither required nor appropriate. "I had to" rob the liquor store.
ecf 5y ago
> Another positive side of the US is that there seems to be more opportunities, particularly if you are white or Asian and work in tech. Excuse me? If there’s anything I’ve learned in about two months of applying is that no company wants yet another white, male engineer.
- akhosravian 5y ago
  If I’ve learned anything in my decade plus in tech on both sides of the hiring table it’s almost no one cares about the race/gender of candidates, and that lack of care generally favors white men. Not through bad intent from folks doing the hiring just through human things: white men are more likely to know what to expect from a tech interview, or even to know someone who can give them an inside scoop. Without even getting into how off putting some job listings can be to many folks not extremely steeped in nerd culture. The actual interview process everywhere I’ve worked has been pretty rigid and without doing some form of blinding on the code parts could not be more neutral to the candidates identity. Which is to say: if you’re not getting interviews as an experienced software engineer you must have something glaringly wrong with your resume. Maybe have a trusted friend or former coworker take a look. If you’re not getting offers from at least some of those interviews you probably need to brush up on your algorithms, and make sure you’re actually conversational in all the things listed on your resume.
  - ecf 5y ago
    > experienced software engineer I’m an associate-level engineer. Why would a company, many of which are increasingly proud of their diverse team, pick a white engineer when there are hundreds of equally skilled junior applicants that won’t bring down their recruiting metrics? I’ve literally seen recruiting KPIs at previous startups involve how many black or woman engineers they hire in a quarter. My current attempts at breaking into the industry is currently being made more difficult by the previous decades of inequity in software engineering teams.
    - cplanas 5y ago
      Because diversity efforts are largely ineffectual and, if you are interviewed by people of your own race, unconscious bias will help you. Some studies showed certain ethnic markers are harmful for applicants: https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/employers-replies-racial-names https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/employers-replies-racial-n... https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes...

Winterflow3r 5y ago

Thank you for the perspective! At the moment, establishing a social life has proved so difficult due to constant relocation and general difficulty of socialising in Sweden, that I'd prefer to go somewhere where at least I'd have better career opportunities in tech.

cplanas 5y ago
I think it's totally worth to try it. While I will be coming back soon, I am happy that I was able to have this experience. Good luck!

david38 5y ago

You don’t have to be white or Asian to get a job in tech. I’ve literally seen anyone who can code even somewhat get jobs here. You can probably be green and get a job if you know how to code.

cplanas 5y ago
You don't have to. It just helps significantly.

systemvoltage 5y ago

As an immigrant to USA, I think inequality is valid but I have never faced any racism or seen any in engineering jobs. It is overblown. There might be some racism in blue collar work (probably same as EU) but my observation in tech/engineering jobs is always professional.

cplanas 5y ago
Maybe you have been lucky. I have seen racism in engineering jobs, most typically in the form of bias or preconceived ideas of how people of certain "races" are supposed to behave, or what are their perspectives in life.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  I’ve never observed that having worked in several Fortune 50 companies. It is quite the opposite. Whites in US tech scene are being impartially treated and open-reverse-racism is more commonplace (witnessed it several times in hiring committees. It was quite shocking and blatant). I can imagine racism being rampant maybe 30 years ago in the tech scene. I am quite frustrated that being colored means I get to be put on posters, literally got a photo taken of me and the diversity/inclusion HR put it up on the company website to further their agenda which I completely disagree with. It always felt condescending to me. I want to be judged by merit and not my skin color.
  - cplanas 5y ago
    > It always felt condescending to me. I completely agree with you. Pity is a particularly disturbing version of contempt. But if you think that this contempt is only reflected in the diversity circus, you are fooling yourself. High-caste Americans (sorry Wilkerson, the simile is too good to let it go) want to virtue-signal and maybe give some breadcrumbs to the minorities they feel pity for, not put them at their level.
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      I want to be totally clear - I don’t think “they feel pity for, not put them at their level”. That’s not what I was trying to say. Every white leader I’ve met have given me opportunities and often their higher ups are not white. The problem is the corporate HR wokeness and their agenda feels condescending to me. That’s the distinction I want to clarify.

statesandspain 5y ago

> I also find the social issues of the US (unequality, racism) more disturbing than the ones there are in Europe. I grew up in the US but have lived in Barcelona for several years now. I don't believe that racism is worse in the US than Spain; in fact much the opposite. I live in a mixed-income neighborhood in Barcelona and see far more casual discrimination against low-income immigrants and the local Roma subculture here than I've seen in any major US city. The US has historically had really bad racial policies and there are definitely still parts of the country with a backwards view on race and class, but most of the US (and certainly the parts of the country where a high-skilled immigrant might move to) just isn't like that anymore. I can't speak to the rest of Europe, but Barcelona at least seems behind here. That said, I do agree there's a lot more inequality in the US than Spain. (It seems to me though that's more about the middle and upper class in the US being much richer—the poor in Spain don't seem to have an easier life than the poor in the US.)

returningfory2 5y ago
> That said, I don't believe that racism/social issues are worse in the US than Spain My current theory is that the difference between Europe and the US right now is that discrimination is about the same but that in the US racism is openly discussed and criticized. This leads to an illusion that racism is worse in the US because we hear about it more. In this theory Europe like the US in the 60s in which racism was prevalent but sort of more hidden in the dominant white public consciousness.
cplanas 5y ago
Oh, I'm from Barcelona myself. While I agree with you that the upper class in the US is much richer than in Barcelona, I strongly disagree with you about the poor. I think very often about my particular situation, and what would have happened to me if I would have been born in the US. I come from a family that would be on the lower side of the middle class; unfortunately for us, there is a genetic illness running on my father's side of the family. In Spain, to get healthcare was never a problem; I'm not sure if that wouldn't have been an issue in the US. I see the same problem with education: while we were not poor, I am not sure if I would have been able to go to one of the best schools in my country, as I did for free in Spain. Free education and healthcare are very important. On racism, I don't wanna sound harsh, but I believe you only see less because the US is much more segregated. I am typically perceived as Hispanic by most Americans, and believe me, racism is an issue. I don't want to imagine how it is for an immigrant from Africa or Latin America.

umvi 5y ago

> I also find the social issues of the US (unequality, racism) more disturbing than the ones there are in Europe. On the contrary, when I lived in Europe (Rome) I found it disturbing that the overt racism and inequality was not acknowledged by anyone. I got the impression Italians believed that racism only existed in America and that they themselves couldn't possibly be racist (even though moments earlier they were disparaging east European immigrants)

qnsi 5y ago
you know east europeans are white? anyway lots of italians come to my eastern european city and we make it extra obvious we are racist against them so its even
- nix23 5y ago
  Rome was NOT made by Italians (but most probably albans)...but hey they are really proud of the roman empire ;) But do you know were the word "slave" comes from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology >>Use of the word arose during the Early Medieval Period, when Slavs from Central and Eastern Europe (Saqaliba) were frequently enslaved by Moors from the Iberian Peninsula and North Africa. So brown/black peoples enslaved white peoples, but hey the US only thinks about sold black's by black peoples only, a slave can only be black..end of discussion.
  - Asooka 5y ago
    Well, let's not put all Blacks under the same denominator, that sounds a bit racist. As a Slav, I hold no ill will towards them acting in a way that was appropriate for the time period. That said, I do find it ironic, that we had to remove all mentions of master/slave from our software products, so as to not offend our American customers. Again, I don't mind, but it's funny when you think about it.
    - seoulmetro 5y ago
      You didn't have to. You wanted to. Lots of people wanted to. For no real reason other than to fit in or appease a mob. There's no "have to". You don't "have to" do much these days. I'm not letting people's stupid actions be marked as a "have to" when they're most definitely still stupid and still neither required nor appropriate. "I had to" rob the liquor store.

ecf 5y ago

> Another positive side of the US is that there seems to be more opportunities, particularly if you are white or Asian and work in tech. Excuse me? If there’s anything I’ve learned in about two months of applying is that no company wants yet another white, male engineer.

akhosravian 5y ago
If I’ve learned anything in my decade plus in tech on both sides of the hiring table it’s almost no one cares about the race/gender of candidates, and that lack of care generally favors white men. Not through bad intent from folks doing the hiring just through human things: white men are more likely to know what to expect from a tech interview, or even to know someone who can give them an inside scoop. Without even getting into how off putting some job listings can be to many folks not extremely steeped in nerd culture. The actual interview process everywhere I’ve worked has been pretty rigid and without doing some form of blinding on the code parts could not be more neutral to the candidates identity. Which is to say: if you’re not getting interviews as an experienced software engineer you must have something glaringly wrong with your resume. Maybe have a trusted friend or former coworker take a look. If you’re not getting offers from at least some of those interviews you probably need to brush up on your algorithms, and make sure you’re actually conversational in all the things listed on your resume.
- ecf 5y ago
  > experienced software engineer I’m an associate-level engineer. Why would a company, many of which are increasingly proud of their diverse team, pick a white engineer when there are hundreds of equally skilled junior applicants that won’t bring down their recruiting metrics? I’ve literally seen recruiting KPIs at previous startups involve how many black or woman engineers they hire in a quarter. My current attempts at breaking into the industry is currently being made more difficult by the previous decades of inequity in software engineering teams.
  - cplanas 5y ago
    Because diversity efforts are largely ineffectual and, if you are interviewed by people of your own race, unconscious bias will help you. Some studies showed certain ethnic markers are harmful for applicants: https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/employers-replies-racial-names https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/employers-replies-racial-n... https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes...