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2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

131 points by unclebucknasty 5y ago

vb6sp6 5y ago
I actively avoid being near Tesla cars when I'm driving
- ARandomerDude 5y ago
  That's not how virtue signals are supposed to work. You're supposed to be ashamed of the patriarchy that led you to buy your gas guzzler, and applaud the Tesla driver for zirs noble choice.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  I make sure I don't have one in front of me.
- onion2k 5y ago
  I'm not an expert but I think you should avoid all cars when you're driving.
  - samfar90 5y ago
    Good one !
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  I had a near miss recently because the light was red at the intersection and I was pulling out of the u-turn lane. The Tesla driver in the lane closest to the interstate decided to floor it as soon as the light was green and came within 5 feet of hitting me.
tpmx 5y ago
Tl;dr: The critical flaw is random braking in the mandatory crash avoidance system because they replaced radar with cameras + computer vision which has a lot of false positives in their current production software release. I'm curious: Is the reason cost, availability or ideology?
- tziki 5y ago
  It's widely thought to be due to the chip shortage. Tesla made numerous other adjustments due to chip shortage too.
- adam_arthur 5y ago
  I would guess a bit of both. In theory cameras should work fine, given that humans are pretty good at driving by just using our eyes. Of course vision will never be theoretically better than radar/laser. But should be good enough in the long run, and cheaper/more flexible. My question is, what level of resolution and processing power is necessary to interpret inputs accurately though? Just anecdotally, seems like autopilot is many years away from being close to autonomous. Self driving is an 80-20 kind of problem... The 20% of hard stuff seems completely unsolved by Tesla, judging by YouTube videos, reviews etc. Personally I think Google will beat them to the punch by many years
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    The cameras in a Tesla are not 576mp (which is the closest approximation or estimate of our eyes), and nor do they have 21 stops of dynamic range (same). And they also don't have 16+ years, minimum, of 24/7 "non-machine learning" to augment their judgment.
    - jefftk 5y ago
      That's not even counting the generations of evolution that went into pre-training the neural structure
    - dillondoyle 5y ago
      This source says they are only 1280×960 which ML reduces to 160x120 depth grid? Seems crazily low resolution to me and also somewhat amazing they can do what they can with that (which I think doesn't matter much as it's still scary if they can't avoid obvious concrete obstacles or do the opposite brake ing op says) https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1412597377228226562 https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1412597377228226562 https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/bgqekv/what_is_the_model_3s_camera_resolution/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/bgqekv/what_is...
LeoPanthera 5y ago
I've owned a Model X for a year. It dates from before they removed radar, so autopilot still works very well. The rest of the car, however, does not. It is the least reliable car I have ever known. I am currently tracking ten faults, and waiting for my fifth service, which could only be booked with nearly a month to wait. The most serious faults involve the car sometimes failing to start without a hard reboot first (!), and then a constant stream of non-sensical errors while driving, which cause it to beep loudly with no way to stop it. Dear reader, do not make my mistake, do not buy a Tesla. But not for the usual anti-Tesla propaganda reasons. Autopilot works great. Even the weird "falcon wing" doors are actually very good. It's just that the quality is awful and service is both overbooked and doesn't actually fix things. I've never regretted a car purchase more. PS. Does anyone in the bay area want to buy a Model X? ;)
- blamazon 5y ago
  Model X ownership is a breeze far from the Bay Area. My mom’s model X has gone in at least a dozen times and there’s never a wait for an appointment. The local service center is excellent.
  - zzleeper 5y ago
    > A dozen times That's what's so weird to me. I own an old 2012 Hyundai Accent, bought used at ~12k, and over the last five years I've only taken it for: - Checkup and oil change - Wheel change - Battery change But then I see all these examples of Tesla owners having to fix issue after issue after issue and saying "it's not so bad I just lost an afternoon each time going for an apt"
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Syonyk 5y ago
      I've literally heard from Tesla owners that one of the perks of owning a Tesla in a densely populated tech-heavy area is all the industry networking you get at the service center.
eps 5y ago
Steering wheel is not a rectangle, so that alone is a plus.
Shank 5y ago
> I can't conclusively say that it's because of the missing radar, but I can say that our Model Y is bad at detecting obstructions ahead. Really, really bad. The big issue is false positives, a problem that has become known as "phantom braking" among Tesla owners. Basically, the car often gets confused and thinks there's an obstacle ahead and engages the automatic emergency braking system. You get an instant, unwanted and often strong application of the brakes. I could be wrong, but I didn’t see any mention of taking their car in for repair or service. I’m a pretty big Tesla quality control skeptic — seeing the after-delivery issues people have with panel gaps and other issues stops me from buying an otherwise exciting car. But the safety system being defective is something that would prompt me to take the car in for service immediately. Did they not do that? I honestly find this review quite frustrating. It seems like such a glaring flaw there would be an entire article dedicated to interviews with owners, a conversation transcript with Tesla service, and maybe even a note about how responsive Tesla is about fixing the problem. Instead, it seems like they found the issue, decided that it was acceptable enough to not get fixed, and published. I can see this being fair, but it doesn’t strike me as the most honest unless every shipping car has the same problem.
- Jare 5y ago
  The flaw was not unique to their car, or new at all. They describe how owners have already nicknamed the issue, so > unless every shipping car has the same problem Seems close enough.
  - rconti 5y ago
    I mean, "phantom braking" seems like a pretty obvious term for such behavior. Never had it on my laser cruise-equipped Golf R, nor on our radar-equipped Tesla, but it's immediately intuitive what they mean by it. I will say, the Tesla needed to have the "brake warning" moved to 'late' from 'medium' to not making annoying alerts from time to time, which is something my Golf did also, but even more rarely. I only had the Golf for about 30k miles because I somewhat-unexpectedly bought the Telsa 3, which is now up over 53k miles.
adam_arthur 5y ago
While it's pretty obvious that many manufacturers are coming out with their own EVs, there seems to be something of a bubble that isn't paying attention or totally ignores this. It will be interesting to see how the EV space evolves once there are mass amounts of competitor vehicles available/on the road. Specifically interesting to see how it affects valuations for these companies. I suspect Tesla's growth rate will slow considerably once there are comparably priced options from mainstream brands. E.g. F-150 vs Cybertruck. Or even a car from Apple, though that's many years out. How obvious does the inevitability have to be to start denting valuations? There's still the self driving story, but it does not appear they've made material progress on the hardest 20% of it. Most brands will have autonomous highway driving without much issue, and that's where 80% of the value is anyway. And likely Google will beat them to the punch on the taxi side.
- dylan604 5y ago
  >E.g. F-150 vs Cybertruck. I'm in Texas, and there are stereotype supporting large number of truck owners around. Of the ones I've spoken to about Cybertruck, not one of them are interested in the body. People like how their Fords/Dodge/Chevy trucks look, so taking the design so far away from the norm just seems like an odd decision. Worse than the original Prius design.
  - jefftk 5y ago
    The original Prius design was very conventional: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1st-Toyota-Prius.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1st-Toyota-Prius.jpg The second generation is the well-known streamlined shape: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Toyota_Prius_(NHW20R)_liftback_(2012-06-24).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Toyota_Prius_(N... (I think the shape was probably not a mistake on Toyota's part. A lot of people were buying them partly because they wanted other people to know they had them, and the shape indicated this very clearly.)
    - dylan604 5y ago
      Maybe I have the wrong car model. What was the one with the odd shape with the rear wheels covered, etc?
aresant 5y ago
Rented my first Tesla from turo recently Super impressed with the range, performance, the modernity of the interfaces and thoughtfulness of features. Feels like the future. Sort of shocked by the build quality including a latch that got stuck and wouldn't allow the door to close. Managed to get it wedged open with a tool on hand, but could see it being a showstopper / tow truck moment for many. The quality / bs issues seem fixable so it's hard not to still feel optimistic about the platform on a whole, but one would hope between the record debt / demand / and liquidity of that org at the moment that they are briskly addressing.
wodenokoto 5y ago
Tesla’s makes me happy that I don’t have a lot of money nor a drivers license. They are SO desirable and yet so flawed. It’s really nice not having to contemplate ownership of one.
mulcahey 5y ago
Commenting just to say that I've had a Model 3 since 2017 with zero issues. Anecdotally, I have tons of friends with Teslas and haven't heard a single nightmare service or build quality issue from any of them. Autopilot has been great -- probably over half my miles driven. Still a work-in-progress for city streets but FSD improvements have been pretty impressive from what I've observed on YouTube. Service has been pretty great too actually -- the appointment booking process I just went through to get new tires felt like the future since it's completely through the app. My only wish is that they had better loaner availability in CA. In TX the availability does seem better though since I moved here.
- bwanab 5y ago
  My M3 since 2019. No issues at all. I wish all my other cars had been so good.
tziki 5y ago
These (+ reliability concerns) are pretty much the reasons why I decided to wait until buying a new car. BMW has said they'll introduce actual self-driving features (as in, they'll assume legal liability) in 2022. While I'm on the fence on whether they'll actually deliver, if manufacturers like BMW are willing to commit to such timelines it gives me hope these features aren't too far away from being commonplace.
pmcollins 5y ago
tldr: the author writes off the entire car because the optional self driving feature, which has like 10% uptake, doesn’t perform well on side roads.
- djanogo 5y ago
  He is talking about adaptive cruise control, which is a standard feature in 20k cars now(called ACC on Honda Civic or TSS 2 on Toyota Corolla). "A $70,000 car that can't even do cruise control is inexcusable and so, for now at least, I must recommend against the Model Y."
- tpmx 5y ago
  My understanding is that the car is randomly braking even when the optional self driving feature isn't used because they attempted to replace a long-time tested radar-based crash avoidance safety system (mandatory in US+EU) with something based on cameras + computer vision because of ... reasons. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
- kbos87 5y ago
  This wasn't clear to me either in the video or the review.
uniformlyrandom 5y ago
So this is how you get views and clicks these days - make a couple of factually incorrect statements, refuse to do any research, put a FUD clickbait in the title, and bingo - you are a "popular" "journalist".
stevev 5y ago
This makes me weary about considering the Tesla Cybertruck. Besides the author, the amount of topics or personal stories about the quality of Tesla vehicles looks alarming.
- erikpukinskis 5y ago
  I think you mean leery, or maybe wary. Unless they actually made you tired.
jokoon 5y ago
When are they going to build a small, cheap electric car? Model S, X, Y, 3 all those cars are heavy tanks. I'm quite tired of those companies always aiming for rich customers. If Musk was really for the environment, he would try to make those cars affordable. I guess Tesla doesn't have the production capacity to make a high production cheaper car yet?
- moonchrome 5y ago
  They are beyond production capacity with "rich cars" (IMO Y and 3 especially are firmly middle class cars). Why would they go into a market that's even higher volume and lower margins when they can't cover the more profitable market demand ? If anything, other manufacturers are trying to get out of that market segment because regulation is making it too unprofitable to be in (eg. mandatory safety features, CO2 emissions rates for ICEs), a lot of A segment is not getting refreshed in EU/is being discontinued. You will probably see small "expensive" cars like Electric Mini and Smart cars.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    $60k electric cars are mostly an upper middle class thing. I haven’t met anyone who is under $100k/yr individual income and bought a Tesla. (Excluding bank of mom and dad) It’s not a civic.
- faebi 5y ago
  Exactly. They won't lower their prices and margins until their months of backlog clear up either because of less customers buying at that price point or more cars being build.
- noodle 5y ago
  Well, the reality is that they also have to create and run a profitable business, as well, which they would have failed at if they started with cheaper vehicles. It seems likely they'll go downmarket eventually, once they have the scale to survive off of the lower margins that come with cheaper cars.
- 01100011 5y ago
georgewfraser 5y ago
I don’t know how to square this review with my own experience of owning a Y for a year. The autopilot is nearly perfect, noticeably better than a human driver in stop and go traffic on the highway. Given the history of downright dishonest reviews by old school car people with an irrational hatred of Tesla, this review really should have been accompanied by video evidence of phantom braking.
- muglug 5y ago
  > this review really should have been accompanied by video evidence of phantom braking There's a video review in the article which includes many examples of phantom breaking.
  - georgewfraser 5y ago
    Doh, how did I miss that? Now I understand: the phantom breaking is all on non-highways. I only use autopilot on highways and highway-like roads.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- csa 5y ago
  Agreed. I got my Model Y in June. Yes, sometimes it has phantom braking. For reference, on a 9 hour drive to LV from my house, it happened maybe 5 times, and they were all fixed with a mild press of the accelerator. If this is a deal breaker for you, don’t get a Tesla. If the failed promise of FSD is a deal breaker for you, don’t get a Tesla (I don’t have it and don’t want it). Other than the minor issues (for me) of occasional phantom braking and broken FSD promises, the car has been amazing. Build quality was perfect, it has run incredibly well, and it is simply a joy to drive. My friend ordered his a week after I took him on a ride, and he doesn’t think he will ever own a car that’s not a Tesla (I disagree with him, because competition will be a thing at some point, but he’s directionally correct). Many of my other friends have made their deposit and are just waiting for their number to come up. Rather than read reviews, talk to people who own the model you are planning to purchase (same model and similar “model year”). Then take the car on a test drive. You will probably know at that point if it’s for you or not.
BluSyn 5y ago
I have an early build 2018 Model 3 Performance. I have experienced almost zero quality issues. I use Autopilot frequently and have experienced phantom braking maybe 5 times ever in 3+ years, and certainly isn't a deal-breaker. In fact it's improved dramatically since I first got the car. I feel like all I ever hear from outside the Tesla owner bubble is quality issues, complaints, weird problems I've never experienced. When I talk to other Tesla owners, they also are confused by this phenomena, because the vast majority I've talked to have the same experience as me; complete joy in the product, very few if any complaints at all. Especially relative to any other car I have owned or is available on the market today, I wouldn't recommend buying anything else. When people talk about annoying Tesla fanboys, this is the core of problem. On the one hand you have the public perception of Tesla cars, based on reviews like this one. Then you have actual experience from the *majority* of owners being the exact opposite. Tesla certainly has issues, but so does GM, Ford, and every other auto maker. Reviewers rarely shout these issues in the headlines. But with Tesla it's always different. What are we do to about this instead? Why is every review of Tesla highlighting the flaws, whereas every review of non-EV cars highlight the positives? How come Tesla owners don't get to write about their positive experiences without being called fanboys or shills?
- trulyme 5y ago
  Well, maybe this will change when the reviewer doesn't find water in the trunk of the car after washing it? Or when their car doesn't brake for no reason? Some things are simply not acceptable for ordinary users who are accustomed to other companies' quality standards. Especially at comparable price point.
- 11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
  I owned a BMW 328i for 20 years. I loved that car dearly. I've now got 94,000 miles on a 2018 Model 3 long range. It's more fun than the BMW in every way. Handles better, accelerates faster, it's much quieter inside. The sound system is much better than the HKs in the BMW. It's more comfortable. I can drive for 4 hours straight with no discomfort. I don't have autopilot cuz my insurance guy wouldn't give me a discount if I bought it. Once he does, I'll add it. Regarding service: It's on the 3rd set of tires and I replaced the cracked windshield. That's it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rekoros 5y ago
We put 90K miles on our 2018 Model S D100 It’s had a couple issues, but nothing major - best car I’ve owned by far.
dmitrybrant 5y ago
I was an early-ish adopter of the Model 3 (2018), and I couldn't be happier with it. I've had zero hardware quality issues, and one software issue where it did a cold reboot one day and forgot my personalization settings. But otherwise it's an absolute pleasure. However, big caveat: I absolutely do not use Autopilot, nor do I ever plan to. I bought the car because I love to drive it -- the way it handles, the way it accelerates, etc. The only "automatic" feature I've used is literally the cruise control, i.e. maintaining a set speed on the highway. That's the farthest I trust it to do anything automatically. Being tangentially involved in the field of machine vision / machine learning, I understand the limitations of the current technology, and am appalled at how brazenly Tesla is rolling out this half-baked functionality to users, and marketing it as if full self-driving is just around the corner, when in fact it has a long, long way to go.
huijzer 5y ago
This is also another example of people promising an AI revolution, but in fact we end up with phantom breaking.
kbos87 5y ago
I may have missed this, but did the reviewer ever definitively, clearly say the conditions under which he experienced phantom braking? Was he using autopilot, or was this automatic emergency braking engaging without autopilot engaged? Those are two very different scenarios. If it happened with autopilot engaged, I'd want to know what type of road he was driving on. One other thing I'll throw out there - many comments here seem to chalk up the possibility of phantom braking to the fact that Tesla has moved entirely to a computer vision system in the latest model Y, and that the lack of supplemental radar couldn't possibly be effective. Subaru's Eyesight system is 100% based on computer vision (unless you are reversing), I've driven 45k miles with it using adaptive cruise control and the always-on automatic emergency braking. I've experienced a phantom alert once or twice (the car momentarily thinks it sees an obstacle, both times thick smoke from a manhole in front of the car) but I've never experienced anything like the "phantom braking" he describes. I know I'm talking about a different manufacturer, but I think it's misinformed to say that computer vision alone can't pull this off when other manufacturers clearly have been for years.
v3rt3x 5y ago
I’ve had multiple high end cars, including a BMW 750 Li and a Porsche 911. My 21 Model Y is hands down my favorite and significantly more reliable.
oxplot 5y ago
Since we're doing the anecdote thing here: I've had a Model 3 for 2 years now. Best effing car ever (I owned 3 prior to it). Haven't had a single issue that wasn't my fault. Service is super convenient, informative and fast. The lack of clutter, instant and sustained torque in addition to unreal handling, makes every other car, in its class or above (test driven cars twice the price), feel like a toy and pure junk. So abso-lutely buy a Tesla if you've been on the fence.
ethagknight 5y ago
Ok so who has the biggest anecdote? CNET has the platform, and it’s an ad sponsored medium willing to hit pieces for a fee. I just like to argue on the internet for fake points. I recently owned a 2015 Lexus LX570 that engaged emergency seatbelt tensioners (and I think engaged auto braking too?) every time I came across a steel plate road cover for construction. Something about the solid metal hit the radar system just right and caused it to panic. And caused me to damn near have a heart attack every time and swerve, hitting something else. That’s dangerous, and it’s Lexus flagship model. I traded that in for a Model Y. I have occasionally had phantom braking, and I think the collision warning system is a little frenetic, but phantom braking beats the hell out of phantom acceleration (Ford?), or you know, not braking when it really should (most other late model cars on the road today, and also many new cars currently for sale). I consider it an annoyance but not a safety concern unless there’s some jagweed tailgating me. If you are an appropriately responsive driver with your hands on the wheel and feet ready to engage the pedals, you can trivially override the braking. Only if you tune out does it become a problem. Was the author not safely piloting his vehicle? The real reason I can tell this is a hit piece is that anyone reviewing the Model Y knows that it’s nearly perfect in every way, maybe a little too expensive, maybe a little cheapish materials in certain areas, but the real massive failure is that the suspension is borderline intolerable on routine city streets. Still thinking about trading it in for that reason alone. Elon, if you or anyone at Tesla read this, please for the love of all that is good give me an option for variable suspension modes. I got the black turbine wheel upgrade that CNET rightfully said to pass on because, while the look absolutely amazing, I feel like I’ve become one with the asphalt in a bad way. I can’t use the cup holders because my coffees shoot out of the little sip holes at every minor bump. Maybe it’s just me coming from a soggy bottomed LX.
- ethagknight 5y ago
  Sorry for the snark at the beginning of my post, but I read the article, felt like it was off.

I actively avoid being near Tesla cars when I'm driving

ARandomerDude 5y ago
That's not how virtue signals are supposed to work. You're supposed to be ashamed of the patriarchy that led you to buy your gas guzzler, and applaud the Tesla driver for zirs noble choice.
willcipriano 5y ago
I make sure I don't have one in front of me.
onion2k 5y ago
I'm not an expert but I think you should avoid all cars when you're driving.
- samfar90 5y ago
  Good one !
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
I had a near miss recently because the light was red at the intersection and I was pulling out of the u-turn lane. The Tesla driver in the lane closest to the interstate decided to floor it as soon as the light was green and came within 5 feet of hitting me.

tpmx 5y ago

Tl;dr: The critical flaw is random braking in the mandatory crash avoidance system because they replaced radar with cameras + computer vision which has a lot of false positives in their current production software release. I'm curious: Is the reason cost, availability or ideology?

tziki 5y ago
It's widely thought to be due to the chip shortage. Tesla made numerous other adjustments due to chip shortage too.
adam_arthur 5y ago
I would guess a bit of both. In theory cameras should work fine, given that humans are pretty good at driving by just using our eyes. Of course vision will never be theoretically better than radar/laser. But should be good enough in the long run, and cheaper/more flexible. My question is, what level of resolution and processing power is necessary to interpret inputs accurately though? Just anecdotally, seems like autopilot is many years away from being close to autonomous. Self driving is an 80-20 kind of problem... The 20% of hard stuff seems completely unsolved by Tesla, judging by YouTube videos, reviews etc. Personally I think Google will beat them to the punch by many years
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  The cameras in a Tesla are not 576mp (which is the closest approximation or estimate of our eyes), and nor do they have 21 stops of dynamic range (same). And they also don't have 16+ years, minimum, of 24/7 "non-machine learning" to augment their judgment.
  - jefftk 5y ago
    That's not even counting the generations of evolution that went into pre-training the neural structure
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    This source says they are only 1280×960 which ML reduces to 160x120 depth grid? Seems crazily low resolution to me and also somewhat amazing they can do what they can with that (which I think doesn't matter much as it's still scary if they can't avoid obvious concrete obstacles or do the opposite brake ing op says) https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1412597377228226562 https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1412597377228226562 https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/bgqekv/what_is_the_model_3s_camera_resolution/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/bgqekv/what_is...

LeoPanthera 5y ago

I've owned a Model X for a year. It dates from before they removed radar, so autopilot still works very well. The rest of the car, however, does not. It is the least reliable car I have ever known. I am currently tracking ten faults, and waiting for my fifth service, which could only be booked with nearly a month to wait. The most serious faults involve the car sometimes failing to start without a hard reboot first (!), and then a constant stream of non-sensical errors while driving, which cause it to beep loudly with no way to stop it. Dear reader, do not make my mistake, do not buy a Tesla. But not for the usual anti-Tesla propaganda reasons. Autopilot works great. Even the weird "falcon wing" doors are actually very good. It's just that the quality is awful and service is both overbooked and doesn't actually fix things. I've never regretted a car purchase more. PS. Does anyone in the bay area want to buy a Model X? ;)

blamazon 5y ago
Model X ownership is a breeze far from the Bay Area. My mom’s model X has gone in at least a dozen times and there’s never a wait for an appointment. The local service center is excellent.
- zzleeper 5y ago
  > A dozen times That's what's so weird to me. I own an old 2012 Hyundai Accent, bought used at ~12k, and over the last five years I've only taken it for: - Checkup and oil change - Wheel change - Battery change But then I see all these examples of Tesla owners having to fix issue after issue after issue and saying "it's not so bad I just lost an afternoon each time going for an apt"
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    I've literally heard from Tesla owners that one of the perks of owning a Tesla in a densely populated tech-heavy area is all the industry networking you get at the service center.

eps 5y ago

Steering wheel is not a rectangle, so that alone is a plus.

Shank 5y ago

> I can't conclusively say that it's because of the missing radar, but I can say that our Model Y is bad at detecting obstructions ahead. Really, really bad. The big issue is false positives, a problem that has become known as "phantom braking" among Tesla owners. Basically, the car often gets confused and thinks there's an obstacle ahead and engages the automatic emergency braking system. You get an instant, unwanted and often strong application of the brakes. I could be wrong, but I didn’t see any mention of taking their car in for repair or service. I’m a pretty big Tesla quality control skeptic — seeing the after-delivery issues people have with panel gaps and other issues stops me from buying an otherwise exciting car. But the safety system being defective is something that would prompt me to take the car in for service immediately. Did they not do that? I honestly find this review quite frustrating. It seems like such a glaring flaw there would be an entire article dedicated to interviews with owners, a conversation transcript with Tesla service, and maybe even a note about how responsive Tesla is about fixing the problem. Instead, it seems like they found the issue, decided that it was acceptable enough to not get fixed, and published. I can see this being fair, but it doesn’t strike me as the most honest unless every shipping car has the same problem.

Jare 5y ago
The flaw was not unique to their car, or new at all. They describe how owners have already nicknamed the issue, so > unless every shipping car has the same problem Seems close enough.
- rconti 5y ago
  I mean, "phantom braking" seems like a pretty obvious term for such behavior. Never had it on my laser cruise-equipped Golf R, nor on our radar-equipped Tesla, but it's immediately intuitive what they mean by it. I will say, the Tesla needed to have the "brake warning" moved to 'late' from 'medium' to not making annoying alerts from time to time, which is something my Golf did also, but even more rarely. I only had the Golf for about 30k miles because I somewhat-unexpectedly bought the Telsa 3, which is now up over 53k miles.

adam_arthur 5y ago

While it's pretty obvious that many manufacturers are coming out with their own EVs, there seems to be something of a bubble that isn't paying attention or totally ignores this. It will be interesting to see how the EV space evolves once there are mass amounts of competitor vehicles available/on the road. Specifically interesting to see how it affects valuations for these companies. I suspect Tesla's growth rate will slow considerably once there are comparably priced options from mainstream brands. E.g. F-150 vs Cybertruck. Or even a car from Apple, though that's many years out. How obvious does the inevitability have to be to start denting valuations? There's still the self driving story, but it does not appear they've made material progress on the hardest 20% of it. Most brands will have autonomous highway driving without much issue, and that's where 80% of the value is anyway. And likely Google will beat them to the punch on the taxi side.

dylan604 5y ago
>E.g. F-150 vs Cybertruck. I'm in Texas, and there are stereotype supporting large number of truck owners around. Of the ones I've spoken to about Cybertruck, not one of them are interested in the body. People like how their Fords/Dodge/Chevy trucks look, so taking the design so far away from the norm just seems like an odd decision. Worse than the original Prius design.
- jefftk 5y ago
  The original Prius design was very conventional: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1st-Toyota-Prius.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1st-Toyota-Prius.jpg The second generation is the well-known streamlined shape: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Toyota_Prius_(NHW20R)_liftback_(2012-06-24).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Toyota_Prius_(N... (I think the shape was probably not a mistake on Toyota's part. A lot of people were buying them partly because they wanted other people to know they had them, and the shape indicated this very clearly.)
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Maybe I have the wrong car model. What was the one with the odd shape with the rear wheels covered, etc?

aresant 5y ago

Rented my first Tesla from turo recently Super impressed with the range, performance, the modernity of the interfaces and thoughtfulness of features. Feels like the future. Sort of shocked by the build quality including a latch that got stuck and wouldn't allow the door to close. Managed to get it wedged open with a tool on hand, but could see it being a showstopper / tow truck moment for many. The quality / bs issues seem fixable so it's hard not to still feel optimistic about the platform on a whole, but one would hope between the record debt / demand / and liquidity of that org at the moment that they are briskly addressing.

wodenokoto 5y ago

Tesla’s makes me happy that I don’t have a lot of money nor a drivers license. They are SO desirable and yet so flawed. It’s really nice not having to contemplate ownership of one.

mulcahey 5y ago

Commenting just to say that I've had a Model 3 since 2017 with zero issues. Anecdotally, I have tons of friends with Teslas and haven't heard a single nightmare service or build quality issue from any of them. Autopilot has been great -- probably over half my miles driven. Still a work-in-progress for city streets but FSD improvements have been pretty impressive from what I've observed on YouTube. Service has been pretty great too actually -- the appointment booking process I just went through to get new tires felt like the future since it's completely through the app. My only wish is that they had better loaner availability in CA. In TX the availability does seem better though since I moved here.

bwanab 5y ago
My M3 since 2019. No issues at all. I wish all my other cars had been so good.

tziki 5y ago

These (+ reliability concerns) are pretty much the reasons why I decided to wait until buying a new car. BMW has said they'll introduce actual self-driving features (as in, they'll assume legal liability) in 2022. While I'm on the fence on whether they'll actually deliver, if manufacturers like BMW are willing to commit to such timelines it gives me hope these features aren't too far away from being commonplace.

pmcollins 5y ago

tldr: the author writes off the entire car because the optional self driving feature, which has like 10% uptake, doesn’t perform well on side roads.

djanogo 5y ago
He is talking about adaptive cruise control, which is a standard feature in 20k cars now(called ACC on Honda Civic or TSS 2 on Toyota Corolla). "A $70,000 car that can't even do cruise control is inexcusable and so, for now at least, I must recommend against the Model Y."
tpmx 5y ago
My understanding is that the car is randomly braking even when the optional self driving feature isn't used because they attempted to replace a long-time tested radar-based crash avoidance safety system (mandatory in US+EU) with something based on cameras + computer vision because of ... reasons. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
kbos87 5y ago
This wasn't clear to me either in the video or the review.

uniformlyrandom 5y ago

So this is how you get views and clicks these days - make a couple of factually incorrect statements, refuse to do any research, put a FUD clickbait in the title, and bingo - you are a "popular" "journalist".

stevev 5y ago

This makes me weary about considering the Tesla Cybertruck. Besides the author, the amount of topics or personal stories about the quality of Tesla vehicles looks alarming.

erikpukinskis 5y ago
I think you mean leery, or maybe wary. Unless they actually made you tired.

jokoon 5y ago

When are they going to build a small, cheap electric car? Model S, X, Y, 3 all those cars are heavy tanks. I'm quite tired of those companies always aiming for rich customers. If Musk was really for the environment, he would try to make those cars affordable. I guess Tesla doesn't have the production capacity to make a high production cheaper car yet?

moonchrome 5y ago
They are beyond production capacity with "rich cars" (IMO Y and 3 especially are firmly middle class cars). Why would they go into a market that's even higher volume and lower margins when they can't cover the more profitable market demand ? If anything, other manufacturers are trying to get out of that market segment because regulation is making it too unprofitable to be in (eg. mandatory safety features, CO2 emissions rates for ICEs), a lot of A segment is not getting refreshed in EU/is being discontinued. You will probably see small "expensive" cars like Electric Mini and Smart cars.
- bradlys 5y ago
  $60k electric cars are mostly an upper middle class thing. I haven’t met anyone who is under $100k/yr individual income and bought a Tesla. (Excluding bank of mom and dad) It’s not a civic.
faebi 5y ago
Exactly. They won't lower their prices and margins until their months of backlog clear up either because of less customers buying at that price point or more cars being build.
noodle 5y ago
Well, the reality is that they also have to create and run a profitable business, as well, which they would have failed at if they started with cheaper vehicles. It seems likely they'll go downmarket eventually, once they have the scale to survive off of the lower margins that come with cheaper cars.
01100011 5y ago

georgewfraser 5y ago

I don’t know how to square this review with my own experience of owning a Y for a year. The autopilot is nearly perfect, noticeably better than a human driver in stop and go traffic on the highway. Given the history of downright dishonest reviews by old school car people with an irrational hatred of Tesla, this review really should have been accompanied by video evidence of phantom braking.

muglug 5y ago
> this review really should have been accompanied by video evidence of phantom braking There's a video review in the article which includes many examples of phantom breaking.
- georgewfraser 5y ago
  Doh, how did I miss that? Now I understand: the phantom breaking is all on non-highways. I only use autopilot on highways and highway-like roads.
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csa 5y ago
Agreed. I got my Model Y in June. Yes, sometimes it has phantom braking. For reference, on a 9 hour drive to LV from my house, it happened maybe 5 times, and they were all fixed with a mild press of the accelerator. If this is a deal breaker for you, don’t get a Tesla. If the failed promise of FSD is a deal breaker for you, don’t get a Tesla (I don’t have it and don’t want it). Other than the minor issues (for me) of occasional phantom braking and broken FSD promises, the car has been amazing. Build quality was perfect, it has run incredibly well, and it is simply a joy to drive. My friend ordered his a week after I took him on a ride, and he doesn’t think he will ever own a car that’s not a Tesla (I disagree with him, because competition will be a thing at some point, but he’s directionally correct). Many of my other friends have made their deposit and are just waiting for their number to come up. Rather than read reviews, talk to people who own the model you are planning to purchase (same model and similar “model year”). Then take the car on a test drive. You will probably know at that point if it’s for you or not.

BluSyn 5y ago

I have an early build 2018 Model 3 Performance. I have experienced almost zero quality issues. I use Autopilot frequently and have experienced phantom braking maybe 5 times ever in 3+ years, and certainly isn't a deal-breaker. In fact it's improved dramatically since I first got the car. I feel like all I ever hear from outside the Tesla owner bubble is quality issues, complaints, weird problems I've never experienced. When I talk to other Tesla owners, they also are confused by this phenomena, because the vast majority I've talked to have the same experience as me; complete joy in the product, very few if any complaints at all. Especially relative to any other car I have owned or is available on the market today, I wouldn't recommend buying anything else. When people talk about annoying Tesla fanboys, this is the core of problem. On the one hand you have the public perception of Tesla cars, based on reviews like this one. Then you have actual experience from the *majority* of owners being the exact opposite. Tesla certainly has issues, but so does GM, Ford, and every other auto maker. Reviewers rarely shout these issues in the headlines. But with Tesla it's always different. What are we do to about this instead? Why is every review of Tesla highlighting the flaws, whereas every review of non-EV cars highlight the positives? How come Tesla owners don't get to write about their positive experiences without being called fanboys or shills?

trulyme 5y ago
Well, maybe this will change when the reviewer doesn't find water in the trunk of the car after washing it? Or when their car doesn't brake for no reason? Some things are simply not acceptable for ordinary users who are accustomed to other companies' quality standards. Especially at comparable price point.
11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
I owned a BMW 328i for 20 years. I loved that car dearly. I've now got 94,000 miles on a 2018 Model 3 long range. It's more fun than the BMW in every way. Handles better, accelerates faster, it's much quieter inside. The sound system is much better than the HKs in the BMW. It's more comfortable. I can drive for 4 hours straight with no discomfort. I don't have autopilot cuz my insurance guy wouldn't give me a discount if I bought it. Once he does, I'll add it. Regarding service: It's on the 3rd set of tires and I replaced the cracked windshield. That's it.

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rekoros 5y ago

We put 90K miles on our 2018 Model S D100 It’s had a couple issues, but nothing major - best car I’ve owned by far.

dmitrybrant 5y ago

I was an early-ish adopter of the Model 3 (2018), and I couldn't be happier with it. I've had zero hardware quality issues, and one software issue where it did a cold reboot one day and forgot my personalization settings. But otherwise it's an absolute pleasure. However, big caveat: I absolutely do not use Autopilot, nor do I ever plan to. I bought the car because I love to drive it -- the way it handles, the way it accelerates, etc. The only "automatic" feature I've used is literally the cruise control, i.e. maintaining a set speed on the highway. That's the farthest I trust it to do anything automatically. Being tangentially involved in the field of machine vision / machine learning, I understand the limitations of the current technology, and am appalled at how brazenly Tesla is rolling out this half-baked functionality to users, and marketing it as if full self-driving is just around the corner, when in fact it has a long, long way to go.

huijzer 5y ago

This is also another example of people promising an AI revolution, but in fact we end up with phantom breaking.

kbos87 5y ago

I may have missed this, but did the reviewer ever definitively, clearly say the conditions under which he experienced phantom braking? Was he using autopilot, or was this automatic emergency braking engaging without autopilot engaged? Those are two very different scenarios. If it happened with autopilot engaged, I'd want to know what type of road he was driving on. One other thing I'll throw out there - many comments here seem to chalk up the possibility of phantom braking to the fact that Tesla has moved entirely to a computer vision system in the latest model Y, and that the lack of supplemental radar couldn't possibly be effective. Subaru's Eyesight system is 100% based on computer vision (unless you are reversing), I've driven 45k miles with it using adaptive cruise control and the always-on automatic emergency braking. I've experienced a phantom alert once or twice (the car momentarily thinks it sees an obstacle, both times thick smoke from a manhole in front of the car) but I've never experienced anything like the "phantom braking" he describes. I know I'm talking about a different manufacturer, but I think it's misinformed to say that computer vision alone can't pull this off when other manufacturers clearly have been for years.

v3rt3x 5y ago

I’ve had multiple high end cars, including a BMW 750 Li and a Porsche 911. My 21 Model Y is hands down my favorite and significantly more reliable.

oxplot 5y ago

Since we're doing the anecdote thing here: I've had a Model 3 for 2 years now. Best effing car ever (I owned 3 prior to it). Haven't had a single issue that wasn't my fault. Service is super convenient, informative and fast. The lack of clutter, instant and sustained torque in addition to unreal handling, makes every other car, in its class or above (test driven cars twice the price), feel like a toy and pure junk. So abso-lutely buy a Tesla if you've been on the fence.

ethagknight 5y ago

Ok so who has the biggest anecdote? CNET has the platform, and it’s an ad sponsored medium willing to hit pieces for a fee. I just like to argue on the internet for fake points. I recently owned a 2015 Lexus LX570 that engaged emergency seatbelt tensioners (and I think engaged auto braking too?) every time I came across a steel plate road cover for construction. Something about the solid metal hit the radar system just right and caused it to panic. And caused me to damn near have a heart attack every time and swerve, hitting something else. That’s dangerous, and it’s Lexus flagship model. I traded that in for a Model Y. I have occasionally had phantom braking, and I think the collision warning system is a little frenetic, but phantom braking beats the hell out of phantom acceleration (Ford?), or you know, not braking when it really should (most other late model cars on the road today, and also many new cars currently for sale). I consider it an annoyance but not a safety concern unless there’s some jagweed tailgating me. If you are an appropriately responsive driver with your hands on the wheel and feet ready to engage the pedals, you can trivially override the braking. Only if you tune out does it become a problem. Was the author not safely piloting his vehicle? The real reason I can tell this is a hit piece is that anyone reviewing the Model Y knows that it’s nearly perfect in every way, maybe a little too expensive, maybe a little cheapish materials in certain areas, but the real massive failure is that the suspension is borderline intolerable on routine city streets. Still thinking about trading it in for that reason alone. Elon, if you or anyone at Tesla read this, please for the love of all that is good give me an option for variable suspension modes. I got the black turbine wheel upgrade that CNET rightfully said to pass on because, while the look absolutely amazing, I feel like I’ve become one with the asphalt in a bad way. I can’t use the cup holders because my coffees shoot out of the little sip holes at every minor bump. Maybe it’s just me coming from a soggy bottomed LX.

ethagknight 5y ago
Sorry for the snark at the beginning of my post, but I read the article, felt like it was off.