5 ms·

Dude, Seattle has spent billions on light rail and it really works well. Are you on the east side? Decent progress has been made on transit oriented apartment

by rdp36 5y ago

Dude, Seattle has spent billions on light rail and it really works well. Are you on the east side? Decent progress has been made on transit oriented apartments too. I agree traffic is oddly bad during the pandemic, but we have solutions, more transit, protected bike lanes, and apartments near light rail and buslines.

Ericson2314 5y ago
Is it grade separated? I genuinely don't know, but I fear the answer. Progressives building trains that sit in traffic is very expensive virtue signalling as far as I am concerned.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  AFAIK it’s all in its own right of way, with a mix of being at grade and underground (and soon parts will be elevated). Your description is apt for the South Lake Union Streetcar, though.
- area_man_2 5y ago
  I cannot speak to east of Seattle but for significant portions it is grade separated. Of the 3 stops where it isn't, it has it's own lane on a major thoroughfare and only chances an errant driver crossing an intersection. Now for the Seattle Streetcars, those are a different story. For the most part, they have a dedicated lane so they breeze past traffic, but could get caught if traffic is especially bad.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Light rail usually isn't. (I don't know about Seattle specifically.)
- andrewxdiamond 5y ago
  Trains that sit in traffic still have a massive gain over cars in traffic. They are cheaper to run long term than the equivalent sized bus, and can run almost non-stop without the need to refuel. Try not to dismiss ideas so quickly as "virtue signalling" without an understanding of what they accomplish
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    One might make a similar argument with taxis and Ubers significantly reducing the total number of cars that need to exist even though there might sometimes be drivers on the road looking for another fare.
  - novok 5y ago
    The key issue with buses and trains in traffic is they're slower than a car, so people don't want to use it because it's a shittier experience. When you grade separate they become independent of traffic and thus better than driving so people end up using it more. Cars vs. transit is a pure throughput issue. You will never, even with 14 lane highways, beat one grade separated transit line with how many people you can move per hour. Eventually you run out of land with roads and cars, with trains you effectively do not.
    - andrewxdiamond 5y ago
      I absolutely agree, buses are only ideal in two cases: - Short, local travel where large scale transport services don’t make sense, and - As a mediocre stop gap measure to make up for lacking infrastructure. The idea that busses go on the highway in Seattle is appalling
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      With trains you are limited because you need a certain amount of separation between trains for safety, and station platforms are only so long which limits the number of cars that can load/unload. And at the final terminal (typically the main downtown station) there are a finite number of platforms which limits the number of trains that can be in the station at any one time. Agree that you can move many more people on one set of rails than one highway, but it's not unlimited.
      - Gwypaas 5y ago
        Regarding the terminus stations, in Europe many central stations are being converted, or where built as, through stations. This allows for much higher throughput since trains don't have to turn around.
- 01100011 5y ago
  I know a lot of the new light rail is, but it depends on the area. IIRC when it gets near downtown(at least in Rainier Valley/International District) it's on grade. Down by the airport it's up in the air. Same with the new extension down to Sea-Tac Mall(or whatever the hell they call it now).
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Link light rail is grade separated for most of its route. Where it isn’t grade separated, it isn’t much of a concern, and it is never sitting in traffic (it has priority at all it’s crossings).
- mjevans 5y ago
  The light rail is _mostly_ not grade separated. Within the densest part of Seattle they took over the underground tunnels which for years had been used as (electric) bus transit only tunnels with light rail. Past the stadium in the south it's at grade. After a brief tunnel under the major hill it is at grade through the gentrifying area south of Seattle. It goes above grade near the airport. There are expansions to the east and north that I haven't seen yet, and the expansion to the south hasn't yet reached a stage where I've seen sufficient details to answer.
  - lightrail123 5y ago
    You are factually incorrect here. It's grade separated pretty much all the way north to Northgate and beyond. (Which opened this year.) Northgate, Roosevelt, U District, UW, capitol Hill, all the downtown stops are all separated in tunnels/elevated rail. It's at grade only in parts of SODO and South Seattle. The bulk is separated. Even when not, it takes priority at crossings and has it's own lanes that are rarely shared with cars.

by rdp36 5y ago

Ericson2314 5y ago

Is it grade separated? I genuinely don't know, but I fear the answer. Progressives building trains that sit in traffic is very expensive virtue signalling as far as I am concerned.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
AFAIK it’s all in its own right of way, with a mix of being at grade and underground (and soon parts will be elevated). Your description is apt for the South Lake Union Streetcar, though.
area_man_2 5y ago
I cannot speak to east of Seattle but for significant portions it is grade separated. Of the 3 stops where it isn't, it has it's own lane on a major thoroughfare and only chances an errant driver crossing an intersection. Now for the Seattle Streetcars, those are a different story. For the most part, they have a dedicated lane so they breeze past traffic, but could get caught if traffic is especially bad.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Light rail usually isn't. (I don't know about Seattle specifically.)
andrewxdiamond 5y ago
Trains that sit in traffic still have a massive gain over cars in traffic. They are cheaper to run long term than the equivalent sized bus, and can run almost non-stop without the need to refuel. Try not to dismiss ideas so quickly as "virtue signalling" without an understanding of what they accomplish
- tshaddox 5y ago
  One might make a similar argument with taxis and Ubers significantly reducing the total number of cars that need to exist even though there might sometimes be drivers on the road looking for another fare.
- novok 5y ago
  The key issue with buses and trains in traffic is they're slower than a car, so people don't want to use it because it's a shittier experience. When you grade separate they become independent of traffic and thus better than driving so people end up using it more. Cars vs. transit is a pure throughput issue. You will never, even with 14 lane highways, beat one grade separated transit line with how many people you can move per hour. Eventually you run out of land with roads and cars, with trains you effectively do not.
  - andrewxdiamond 5y ago
    I absolutely agree, buses are only ideal in two cases: - Short, local travel where large scale transport services don’t make sense, and - As a mediocre stop gap measure to make up for lacking infrastructure. The idea that busses go on the highway in Seattle is appalling
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    With trains you are limited because you need a certain amount of separation between trains for safety, and station platforms are only so long which limits the number of cars that can load/unload. And at the final terminal (typically the main downtown station) there are a finite number of platforms which limits the number of trains that can be in the station at any one time. Agree that you can move many more people on one set of rails than one highway, but it's not unlimited.
    - Gwypaas 5y ago
      Regarding the terminus stations, in Europe many central stations are being converted, or where built as, through stations. This allows for much higher throughput since trains don't have to turn around.
01100011 5y ago
I know a lot of the new light rail is, but it depends on the area. IIRC when it gets near downtown(at least in Rainier Valley/International District) it's on grade. Down by the airport it's up in the air. Same with the new extension down to Sea-Tac Mall(or whatever the hell they call it now).
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Link light rail is grade separated for most of its route. Where it isn’t grade separated, it isn’t much of a concern, and it is never sitting in traffic (it has priority at all it’s crossings).
mjevans 5y ago
The light rail is _mostly_ not grade separated. Within the densest part of Seattle they took over the underground tunnels which for years had been used as (electric) bus transit only tunnels with light rail. Past the stadium in the south it's at grade. After a brief tunnel under the major hill it is at grade through the gentrifying area south of Seattle. It goes above grade near the airport. There are expansions to the east and north that I haven't seen yet, and the expansion to the south hasn't yet reached a stage where I've seen sufficient details to answer.
- lightrail123 5y ago
  You are factually incorrect here. It's grade separated pretty much all the way north to Northgate and beyond. (Which opened this year.) Northgate, Roosevelt, U District, UW, capitol Hill, all the downtown stops are all separated in tunnels/elevated rail. It's at grade only in parts of SODO and South Seattle. The bulk is separated. Even when not, it takes priority at crossings and has it's own lanes that are rarely shared with cars.