7 ms·

Sweden asks EU to ban Bitcoin mining...

64 points by oblib 5y ago

1cvmask 5y ago
What if I generated my own electricity from solar in say sunny Spain or Portugal.
- fivea 5y ago
  > What if I generated my own electricity from solar in say sunny Spain or Portugal. I'm not sure about Portugal, but nowadays Spain is undergoing a really rough time with historically high energy prices due to its overreliance on gas as it's energy source.
- beirut_bootleg 5y ago
  Yes, please do! And go ahead and use that energy to power your every day needs: lighting, cooking, heating and entertainment. Now tell me which of those categories Bitcoin falls under. Solar energy may be virtually infinite, but solar panels are not. If you really care about being eco-friendly, then you better put them to good use.
  - kobalsky 5y ago
    > Now tell me which of those categories Bitcoin falls under Where do I put my workstation? I mean I do watch youtube on it sometimes but I mostly work with it... and it does heat up the room but that's mostly a side effect and not a feature. Please help.
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      I think workstations by definition fall under the same category as a space heater.
  - chii 5y ago
    > you better put them to good use and why do you get to decide what a "good use" is for somebody else?
    - petmon 5y ago
      Do not question the paperclip AI. GP does not "get to decide" but hopes to persuade. One possible grim future is that home solar panels do not displace fossil fuels, but instead suffer the same fate as GPUs: eaten up by cryptocurrencies which produce negligible economic value but have a bottomless appetite through their role as a speculative investment. This is terrible for the climate. How do we avoid it?
      - _aavaa_ 5y ago
        > How do we avoid it? Find a better solution to the issue that crypto currencies are trying to solve. Bitcoin is seen as (among other things) a hedge against inflation, a way to quickly send money internationally, and a way to spend and receive money without needing other people's permission to do so. Ethereum is seen as a way to create programs that runs in "the cloud" but not in a cloud that is under the control of any one group, and a way to create new organizations and consensus making systems that are designed from the group up based on internet assumptions (information is quick and essential free to transmit and the importance of geographic location is minimized). I am saying seen to not try to keep it more neutral. You and I may disagree about whether ETH and BTC achieve or make progress on any of these goals, but I believe it's very clear that many people THINK that they do. If you would like to get rid of ETH and BTC, you'd need to find a way to solve (or are perceived to solve) these problems better than ETH and BTC.
- squarefoot 5y ago
  You would still be generating lots of heat with all those GPUs crunching numbers every day, and possibly even more to cool them down. And there's also chips scarcity, in which I'm sure the pandemic isn't the only culprit. Cryptocurrencies should be banned everywhere, unless we find a way to send a mining farm in space; but they're doing only damage here on Earth.
  - Nevermark 5y ago
    Proof of stake and proof of history have already arrived as alternatives to your dilemma. Replacing legacy tech (proof of work, in this case) isn't trivial, but better than banning a whole new industry for an already solved legacy problem.
- brippalcharrid 5y ago
  Doesn't matter, you still don't get to just use that electricity for whatever you want. Why would you want to participate in a decentralized financial network, anyway? Now go sit in a dark room and recite the Law of Jante seven times.
DarthNebo 5y ago
I hate to see this being used as a blanket ban for anything that is not productive? Who is to say any GPU cluster experiments being done at banks/companies to "try out a new model" isn't along the same lines? Telling what people can't do with their own compute/resources is just too much.
Pick-A-Hill2019 5y ago
" ... and to legally prevent anyone doing it from calling it eco-friendly." Ok, that bit I can agree with. Buuuttt, what I have a problem with is this - if Sweden / EU wants to ban crypto mining then simply create a specific industry code [1] that covers crypto mining and legislate/tax accordingly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Industrial_Classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Industrial_Classifica...
gefhfff 5y ago
Please do it! Tbh, while I'd welcome it, I'd prefer rigorous Carbon pricing with dividends
exabrial 5y ago
Do it. And ban any "proof of work" crypto
- CuriousCosmic 5y ago
  I would put a caveat on this. If there is to be a ban, it should only ban "non-useful" proof of work. There's a growing body of research on Proofs of Useful Work and squashing that body of research seems to be short-sighted.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  If proof of work is outlawed, then only outlaws will have proof of work. Imagine if 10 raspberry pis in Libya was all it took to hijack every Blockchain
  - Nevermark 5y ago
    Not a concern. People have already imagined proof of stake, and proof of history into existence.
- lamp987 5y ago
  so state should be deciding what algorithms im not allowed run on my computer? thats absurd and fascist
  - rowanG077 5y ago
    It's not deciding what algorithms you are allowed to run. It only has to be actually useful. If you find the bitcoin algorithm has use then you are free to run it. If you consider that fascist. Then it's also fascist that you aren't allowed to burn trash in your own backyard, which is illegal in many countries. The government is simply doing the job it's supposed to. Protecting their subjects.
    - pibi 5y ago
      Actually useful is subjective. What's the carbon footprint of all the gpu rigs in the world used to play video games? Is that useful for you?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aaron695 5y ago
>Sweden asks EU to ban Bitcoin mining. Lol, with headlines like this these I wonder why Brexit happens? Ohhhh but what about the bumps Britain's getting along they way after ditching the EU after 50 years.... I can think short term... me dumb. Anyway, isn't this just two bureaucrat tossers wanting to feel special? The are asking the EU to ban Bitcoin mining and they are asking Sweden to ban Bitcoin mining. That doesn't make any sense outside of the brain dead population that can only read headlines, they don't even have Sweden on board but "Sweden" wants the EU to ban Bitcoin? > call upon the EU and the Swedish government to ban energy-intensive cryptocurrency mining Lucky the worlds hackers aren't a bunch of basement dwelling autists that let governments tell them what hash functions they are and aren't allowed to compute.
sn_master 5y ago
Try being a Lebanese or Turkish or any of dozen African countries with hyperinflation. Only the rich in those countries managed to exchange their local currency for foreign cash in time, everyone else saw their life savings vanish in front of their own eyes except the very few who converted their local currency to crypto in time when they saw the chips falling. BitCoin allows kind of international currency bank account for everyone and anyone who needs it for minimal cost. That besides the large markets for illegal goods, which is another cornerstone that's not gonna go away any time soon either, with people more or less being forced to buy crypto to get their goods.
- Rd6n6 5y ago
  What happens to people’s money during inflation when that money is tied up in stocks or mutual funds rather than in savings? Does the inflation affect the stock prices, and partially protect you from the inflation?
  - sn_master 5y ago
    During hyperinflation the entire economy tanks, and the stock market will reflect that, if not worse (companies going bankrupt and you losing everything). And, in those countries, investing in stocks is only for the upper class in general. It's nowhere as easy as in the US, and many of them don't even have a stock market or anything similar in the first place. Closest alternative is buying precious metals like gold, but then you run into the risk of fakes, theft and difficulty of transportation.
    - fivea 5y ago
      > And, in those countries, investing in stocks is only for the upper class in general. I'm not sure that is true at all. I mean, nowadays it's as hard to buy a position in crypto as it is to buy stocks from the, say, US stock market.
- fivea 5y ago
  > Try being a Lebanese or Turkish or any of dozen African countries with hyperinflation. Aren't you arguing in favour of capital flight instead of crypto? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_flight > BitCoin allows kind of international currency bank account for everyone and anyone who needs it for minimal cost. That doesn't really explain why should, say, Sweden or the EU be forced to pay, say, Turkey or Lebanon's ecological footprint of it's capital flight.
scotty79 5y ago
Can't they just state in service agreement with people they sell electricity to, that this electricity is not allowed to be used for mining cryptocurrencies? And if they discover it is they would just stop selling electricity to that person/entity?
- sn_master 5y ago
  Why stop? Just raise the price. That's what WA state started doing.
- jobigoud 5y ago
  Who is they? There are many electricity providers to choose from, with various levels of eco-friendliness.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    They = energy producers and sellers. They are surely under some control of Swedish government. Energy sector is largely regulated everywhere.
AlchemistCamp 5y ago
The Europe mostly missed the boat with the current era of web platforms. With enough regulation, maybe the result will be missing Web 3 as well. I don't think so, though. France in particular, seems to have a lot of energy in its blockchain tech scene.
jinpa_zangpo 5y ago
All roads lead to El Salvador and its geothermal powered Bitcoin City.

64 points by oblib 5y ago

1cvmask 5y ago

What if I generated my own electricity from solar in say sunny Spain or Portugal.

fivea 5y ago
> What if I generated my own electricity from solar in say sunny Spain or Portugal. I'm not sure about Portugal, but nowadays Spain is undergoing a really rough time with historically high energy prices due to its overreliance on gas as it's energy source.
beirut_bootleg 5y ago
Yes, please do! And go ahead and use that energy to power your every day needs: lighting, cooking, heating and entertainment. Now tell me which of those categories Bitcoin falls under. Solar energy may be virtually infinite, but solar panels are not. If you really care about being eco-friendly, then you better put them to good use.
- kobalsky 5y ago
  > Now tell me which of those categories Bitcoin falls under Where do I put my workstation? I mean I do watch youtube on it sometimes but I mostly work with it... and it does heat up the room but that's mostly a side effect and not a feature. Please help.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    I think workstations by definition fall under the same category as a space heater.
- chii 5y ago
  > you better put them to good use and why do you get to decide what a "good use" is for somebody else?
  - petmon 5y ago
    Do not question the paperclip AI. GP does not "get to decide" but hopes to persuade. One possible grim future is that home solar panels do not displace fossil fuels, but instead suffer the same fate as GPUs: eaten up by cryptocurrencies which produce negligible economic value but have a bottomless appetite through their role as a speculative investment. This is terrible for the climate. How do we avoid it?
    - _aavaa_ 5y ago
      > How do we avoid it? Find a better solution to the issue that crypto currencies are trying to solve. Bitcoin is seen as (among other things) a hedge against inflation, a way to quickly send money internationally, and a way to spend and receive money without needing other people's permission to do so. Ethereum is seen as a way to create programs that runs in "the cloud" but not in a cloud that is under the control of any one group, and a way to create new organizations and consensus making systems that are designed from the group up based on internet assumptions (information is quick and essential free to transmit and the importance of geographic location is minimized). I am saying seen to not try to keep it more neutral. You and I may disagree about whether ETH and BTC achieve or make progress on any of these goals, but I believe it's very clear that many people THINK that they do. If you would like to get rid of ETH and BTC, you'd need to find a way to solve (or are perceived to solve) these problems better than ETH and BTC.
squarefoot 5y ago
You would still be generating lots of heat with all those GPUs crunching numbers every day, and possibly even more to cool them down. And there's also chips scarcity, in which I'm sure the pandemic isn't the only culprit. Cryptocurrencies should be banned everywhere, unless we find a way to send a mining farm in space; but they're doing only damage here on Earth.
- Nevermark 5y ago
  Proof of stake and proof of history have already arrived as alternatives to your dilemma. Replacing legacy tech (proof of work, in this case) isn't trivial, but better than banning a whole new industry for an already solved legacy problem.
brippalcharrid 5y ago
Doesn't matter, you still don't get to just use that electricity for whatever you want. Why would you want to participate in a decentralized financial network, anyway? Now go sit in a dark room and recite the Law of Jante seven times.

DarthNebo 5y ago

I hate to see this being used as a blanket ban for anything that is not productive? Who is to say any GPU cluster experiments being done at banks/companies to "try out a new model" isn't along the same lines? Telling what people can't do with their own compute/resources is just too much.

Pick-A-Hill2019 5y ago

" ... and to legally prevent anyone doing it from calling it eco-friendly." Ok, that bit I can agree with. Buuuttt, what I have a problem with is this - if Sweden / EU wants to ban crypto mining then simply create a specific industry code [1] that covers crypto mining and legislate/tax accordingly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Industrial_Classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Industrial_Classifica...

gefhfff 5y ago

Please do it! Tbh, while I'd welcome it, I'd prefer rigorous Carbon pricing with dividends

exabrial 5y ago

Do it. And ban any "proof of work" crypto

CuriousCosmic 5y ago
I would put a caveat on this. If there is to be a ban, it should only ban "non-useful" proof of work. There's a growing body of research on Proofs of Useful Work and squashing that body of research seems to be short-sighted.
Rebelgecko 5y ago
If proof of work is outlawed, then only outlaws will have proof of work. Imagine if 10 raspberry pis in Libya was all it took to hijack every Blockchain
- Nevermark 5y ago
  Not a concern. People have already imagined proof of stake, and proof of history into existence.
lamp987 5y ago
so state should be deciding what algorithms im not allowed run on my computer? thats absurd and fascist
- rowanG077 5y ago
  It's not deciding what algorithms you are allowed to run. It only has to be actually useful. If you find the bitcoin algorithm has use then you are free to run it. If you consider that fascist. Then it's also fascist that you aren't allowed to burn trash in your own backyard, which is illegal in many countries. The government is simply doing the job it's supposed to. Protecting their subjects.
  - pibi 5y ago
    Actually useful is subjective. What's the carbon footprint of all the gpu rigs in the world used to play video games? Is that useful for you?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aaron695 5y ago

>Sweden asks EU to ban Bitcoin mining. Lol, with headlines like this these I wonder why Brexit happens? Ohhhh but what about the bumps Britain's getting along they way after ditching the EU after 50 years.... I can think short term... me dumb. Anyway, isn't this just two bureaucrat tossers wanting to feel special? The are asking the EU to ban Bitcoin mining and they are asking Sweden to ban Bitcoin mining. That doesn't make any sense outside of the brain dead population that can only read headlines, they don't even have Sweden on board but "Sweden" wants the EU to ban Bitcoin? > call upon the EU and the Swedish government to ban energy-intensive cryptocurrency mining Lucky the worlds hackers aren't a bunch of basement dwelling autists that let governments tell them what hash functions they are and aren't allowed to compute.

sn_master 5y ago

Try being a Lebanese or Turkish or any of dozen African countries with hyperinflation. Only the rich in those countries managed to exchange their local currency for foreign cash in time, everyone else saw their life savings vanish in front of their own eyes except the very few who converted their local currency to crypto in time when they saw the chips falling. BitCoin allows kind of international currency bank account for everyone and anyone who needs it for minimal cost. That besides the large markets for illegal goods, which is another cornerstone that's not gonna go away any time soon either, with people more or less being forced to buy crypto to get their goods.

Rd6n6 5y ago
What happens to people’s money during inflation when that money is tied up in stocks or mutual funds rather than in savings? Does the inflation affect the stock prices, and partially protect you from the inflation?
- sn_master 5y ago
  During hyperinflation the entire economy tanks, and the stock market will reflect that, if not worse (companies going bankrupt and you losing everything). And, in those countries, investing in stocks is only for the upper class in general. It's nowhere as easy as in the US, and many of them don't even have a stock market or anything similar in the first place. Closest alternative is buying precious metals like gold, but then you run into the risk of fakes, theft and difficulty of transportation.
  - fivea 5y ago
    > And, in those countries, investing in stocks is only for the upper class in general. I'm not sure that is true at all. I mean, nowadays it's as hard to buy a position in crypto as it is to buy stocks from the, say, US stock market.
fivea 5y ago
> Try being a Lebanese or Turkish or any of dozen African countries with hyperinflation. Aren't you arguing in favour of capital flight instead of crypto? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_flight > BitCoin allows kind of international currency bank account for everyone and anyone who needs it for minimal cost. That doesn't really explain why should, say, Sweden or the EU be forced to pay, say, Turkey or Lebanon's ecological footprint of it's capital flight.

scotty79 5y ago

Can't they just state in service agreement with people they sell electricity to, that this electricity is not allowed to be used for mining cryptocurrencies? And if they discover it is they would just stop selling electricity to that person/entity?

sn_master 5y ago
Why stop? Just raise the price. That's what WA state started doing.
jobigoud 5y ago
Who is they? There are many electricity providers to choose from, with various levels of eco-friendliness.
- scotty79 5y ago
  They = energy producers and sellers. They are surely under some control of Swedish government. Energy sector is largely regulated everywhere.

AlchemistCamp 5y ago

The Europe mostly missed the boat with the current era of web platforms. With enough regulation, maybe the result will be missing Web 3 as well. I don't think so, though. France in particular, seems to have a lot of energy in its blockchain tech scene.

jinpa_zangpo 5y ago

All roads lead to El Salvador and its geothermal powered Bitcoin City.