5 ms·

Personally, I have gone from IDEs to vim + language-servers. I get all the benefits of an IDE that I want, and no useless clutter of features I never use or are

Personally, I have gone from IDEs to vim + language-servers. I get all the benefits of an IDE that I want, and no useless clutter of features I never use or are better solved in CLI. One reason is that IDEs' vim-plugins never work quite well. Another one is speed and resource usage. Resource-usage may be solved with thin clients, but not speed. Also I don't want to give up control to some platform.

smitty1e 5y ago
https://www.spacemacs.org/ https://www.spacemacs.org/ is the vim+emacs dark side. [resperator sounds]
- kolme 5y ago
  I've given Emacs a handful of good tries, but it always lets me down. I've tried out "vanilla", Spacemacs and Doom (the last one being my favorite so far), but it's not working for me. I keep going back to good old Vim. For example, when I was learning Clojure I used Doom Emacs for a few months, but gave up because: - Emacs is slow. There's no way around that. It's even slower than VSCode or other IDE-ish editors. If you're used to Vim speeds, that's pretty annoying. - The Vim keybindings are not available everywhere, for example in some plugins you would fall back to pinky-breaker, wrist punishing Emacs standard keybindings. - There's some uncanny valley where keybindings are mostly like Vim but you have constantly paper cuts from small differences here and there, among the occasional Emacs-mode fallback. Don't take me wrong, I can see how Emacs is a great editor, but for me, it's way too late it seems. Seems like I'm going to keep on vimming until the end.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > Emacs is slow. There's no way around that. If you really want to fix it, running the nativecomp version solves that issue.
    - melling 5y ago
      Emacs ran on hardware from the 1980’s. How can it be too slow on modern hardware?
      - kolme 5y ago
        It takes a few seconds to boot up, even on my Ryzen 7 machine with 8 cores à 4GHz and 16GB RAM. Booting up is normally not done so often, but also doing other stuff takes way too long for my taste (over the perceivable 300ms threshold). > Emacs ran on hardware from the 1980’s. How can it be too slow on modern hardware? Since then they've added millions of lines of ELisp code. The comparison is moot. Also we are talking here about Emacs "distributions" (Spacemacs, Doom Emacs) which come with a lot of code, and ELisp is not particularly fast.
        erikbye 5y ago
        Vanilla Emacs startup time is approx. 1 second. Even with a few packages added, Emacs is ready for use in less time than VSCode.
        kubanczyk 5y ago
        > Also we are talking here about Emacs "distributions" (Spacemacs, Doom Emacs) which come with a lot of code, and ELisp is not particularly fast. I've just tried Doom Emacs on 27.1, with the default stuff plus some minor additions, and it starts within 900 ms on my laptop (Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-9850H CPU @ 2.60GHz).
      - renox 5y ago
        Emacs/Vim are fast, SpaceMacs/SpaceVim are slow. And buggy for spaceVim I would add.
      - kryptiskt 5y ago
        Too much single-threading, loads of interpreted code and a display model that doesn't fit well (or really at all) with GUIs.
      - Narishma 5y ago
  - jmkr 5y ago
    Wish I started out with Emacs, but after 10 years of curating my vimrc, I don't have time to replace all my custom plugins/bindings by figuring out elisp. I liked Doom as a vanilla editor, but I went back to vim. For what it's worth `vim-iced` is pretty cool for Clojure. I didn't like Fireplace at all.
- eulers_secret 5y ago
  This is the future of IDEs for me. I get my mailing lists, code, git (magit), and irc all in one! Org-capture, tramp mode, ansi-term. Tight integration with any workflow. Flycheck, flyspell, it’s all so good. Much love for emacs. I would refuse to work where I can’t use it. Steep learning curve, but the view is beautiful after the climb.
bayesian_horse 5y ago
I'm quite OK with Visual Studio Code and its vim Emulation. I have used it in one form or another for a few years now.
- noiwillnot 5y ago
  I am planning to try this, basically the real (neo)vim inside VSCode,no emulation. https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=asvetliakov.vscode-neovim https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=asvetlia...
- renox 5y ago
  Lucky you when I enable it often I cannot modify a file anymore..
  - bayesian_horse 5y ago
    You need to enter one of the editing modes...
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  I couldn’t get over the editor constantly losing focus and having to click in the editor area. Many code navigation features/plugins assume a mouse.
aww_dang 5y ago
Agreed. Less is more. Tools should do one thing and do it well. I don't want to install a huge package and dependencies just to get one feature. Generally feel pessimistic about the "future" of IDEs. The phrase brings bloat to mind. If I need the feature, let me add it to emacs. In most cases someone else has already provided a config.
- The_Colonel 5y ago
  > If I need the feature, let me add it to emacs. In most cases someone else has already provided a config. That sounds like a good approach when you need 5 features. But for development the number is probably in the hundreds and I have no time to try to manage all that. Besides many features are simply not available for editors like emacs. As an example, data flow analysis warns you about logical mistakes in your code (e.g. dereferencing nullable variable without a check first). This happens as you type, the closest you can get without an IDE is probably running it on some static analysis tool in your CI => getting feedback an hour later.
  - suchar 5y ago
    I agree. Even more: I saw vim users who manually edited dozens of files which could be done by running inspection by name on the entire project in IntelliJ. Even (questionably) superior text editing capabilities of vim won’t help here. I think many vim/emacs users are not aware of the functionality of modern IDEs and development speed is mostly defined by text editing speed. Sadly, many users of sophisticated IDEs also are not using these functions, so the experienced vim user will likely be more performant than inexperienced IDE user.
    - titaniczero 5y ago
      As long as your LSP server support it, you can rename it with LSP and it's the same than your rename function in IntelliJ on Neovim. Actually in most languages I use the same LSP server than vscode. I switched from Vscode/Intellij to Neovim +1 year ago and I couldn't be happier. I get why Neovim/Vim/Emacs is not for everyone tho.
wing-_-nuts 5y ago
>I have gone from IDEs to vim + language-servers. I have a love hate relationship with vim. It's super fast and efficient to edit huge quantities of text, but as a tool to really understand a code base? IDEs reign supreme. This is coming from someone who steadfastly refused to use an ide until his last year of college, and then switched, being able to see call hierarchies, having smart completion, etc made my life much easier. I still fall back to the term and vim if I need something quick and dirty.
- ibraheemdev 5y ago
  What does an IDE give you that (Neo)vim + LSP + Vimspector does?
  - slaymaker1907 5y ago
    I don't think you can easily do this in vim, but search over the entire code base ignoring anything ignored by git. You can obviously do this with git itself, but it is nice having an interactive list of results.
    - ibraheemdev 5y ago
      https://github.com/junegunn/fzf.vim https://github.com/junegunn/fzf.vim + ripgrep is really great for that. There is also the native `:vimgrep` command.
    - rodamaral 5y ago
      You can easily do it and much more in neovim with telescope https://github.com/nvim-telescope/telescope.nvim https://github.com/nvim-telescope/telescope.nvim
- Epitom3 5y ago
  all those things work in neovim aswell

smitty1e 5y ago

https://www.spacemacs.org/ https://www.spacemacs.org/ is the vim+emacs dark side. [resperator sounds]

kolme 5y ago
I've given Emacs a handful of good tries, but it always lets me down. I've tried out "vanilla", Spacemacs and Doom (the last one being my favorite so far), but it's not working for me. I keep going back to good old Vim. For example, when I was learning Clojure I used Doom Emacs for a few months, but gave up because: - Emacs is slow. There's no way around that. It's even slower than VSCode or other IDE-ish editors. If you're used to Vim speeds, that's pretty annoying. - The Vim keybindings are not available everywhere, for example in some plugins you would fall back to pinky-breaker, wrist punishing Emacs standard keybindings. - There's some uncanny valley where keybindings are mostly like Vim but you have constantly paper cuts from small differences here and there, among the occasional Emacs-mode fallback. Don't take me wrong, I can see how Emacs is a great editor, but for me, it's way too late it seems. Seems like I'm going to keep on vimming until the end.
- krageon 5y ago
  > Emacs is slow. There's no way around that. If you really want to fix it, running the nativecomp version solves that issue.
  - melling 5y ago
    Emacs ran on hardware from the 1980’s. How can it be too slow on modern hardware?
    - kolme 5y ago
      It takes a few seconds to boot up, even on my Ryzen 7 machine with 8 cores à 4GHz and 16GB RAM. Booting up is normally not done so often, but also doing other stuff takes way too long for my taste (over the perceivable 300ms threshold). > Emacs ran on hardware from the 1980’s. How can it be too slow on modern hardware? Since then they've added millions of lines of ELisp code. The comparison is moot. Also we are talking here about Emacs "distributions" (Spacemacs, Doom Emacs) which come with a lot of code, and ELisp is not particularly fast.
      - erikbye 5y ago
        Vanilla Emacs startup time is approx. 1 second. Even with a few packages added, Emacs is ready for use in less time than VSCode.
      - kubanczyk 5y ago
        > Also we are talking here about Emacs "distributions" (Spacemacs, Doom Emacs) which come with a lot of code, and ELisp is not particularly fast. I've just tried Doom Emacs on 27.1, with the default stuff plus some minor additions, and it starts within 900 ms on my laptop (Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-9850H CPU @ 2.60GHz).
    - renox 5y ago
      Emacs/Vim are fast, SpaceMacs/SpaceVim are slow. And buggy for spaceVim I would add.
    - kryptiskt 5y ago
      Too much single-threading, loads of interpreted code and a display model that doesn't fit well (or really at all) with GUIs.
    - Narishma 5y ago
- jmkr 5y ago
  Wish I started out with Emacs, but after 10 years of curating my vimrc, I don't have time to replace all my custom plugins/bindings by figuring out elisp. I liked Doom as a vanilla editor, but I went back to vim. For what it's worth `vim-iced` is pretty cool for Clojure. I didn't like Fireplace at all.
eulers_secret 5y ago
This is the future of IDEs for me. I get my mailing lists, code, git (magit), and irc all in one! Org-capture, tramp mode, ansi-term. Tight integration with any workflow. Flycheck, flyspell, it’s all so good. Much love for emacs. I would refuse to work where I can’t use it. Steep learning curve, but the view is beautiful after the climb.

bayesian_horse 5y ago

I'm quite OK with Visual Studio Code and its vim Emulation. I have used it in one form or another for a few years now.

noiwillnot 5y ago
I am planning to try this, basically the real (neo)vim inside VSCode,no emulation. https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=asvetliakov.vscode-neovim https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=asvetlia...
renox 5y ago
Lucky you when I enable it often I cannot modify a file anymore..
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  You need to enter one of the editing modes...
the_gipsy 5y ago
I couldn’t get over the editor constantly losing focus and having to click in the editor area. Many code navigation features/plugins assume a mouse.

aww_dang 5y ago

Agreed. Less is more. Tools should do one thing and do it well. I don't want to install a huge package and dependencies just to get one feature. Generally feel pessimistic about the "future" of IDEs. The phrase brings bloat to mind. If I need the feature, let me add it to emacs. In most cases someone else has already provided a config.

The_Colonel 5y ago
> If I need the feature, let me add it to emacs. In most cases someone else has already provided a config. That sounds like a good approach when you need 5 features. But for development the number is probably in the hundreds and I have no time to try to manage all that. Besides many features are simply not available for editors like emacs. As an example, data flow analysis warns you about logical mistakes in your code (e.g. dereferencing nullable variable without a check first). This happens as you type, the closest you can get without an IDE is probably running it on some static analysis tool in your CI => getting feedback an hour later.
- suchar 5y ago
  I agree. Even more: I saw vim users who manually edited dozens of files which could be done by running inspection by name on the entire project in IntelliJ. Even (questionably) superior text editing capabilities of vim won’t help here. I think many vim/emacs users are not aware of the functionality of modern IDEs and development speed is mostly defined by text editing speed. Sadly, many users of sophisticated IDEs also are not using these functions, so the experienced vim user will likely be more performant than inexperienced IDE user.
  - titaniczero 5y ago
    As long as your LSP server support it, you can rename it with LSP and it's the same than your rename function in IntelliJ on Neovim. Actually in most languages I use the same LSP server than vscode. I switched from Vscode/Intellij to Neovim +1 year ago and I couldn't be happier. I get why Neovim/Vim/Emacs is not for everyone tho.

wing-_-nuts 5y ago

>I have gone from IDEs to vim + language-servers. I have a love hate relationship with vim. It's super fast and efficient to edit huge quantities of text, but as a tool to really understand a code base? IDEs reign supreme. This is coming from someone who steadfastly refused to use an ide until his last year of college, and then switched, being able to see call hierarchies, having smart completion, etc made my life much easier. I still fall back to the term and vim if I need something quick and dirty.

ibraheemdev 5y ago
What does an IDE give you that (Neo)vim + LSP + Vimspector does?
- slaymaker1907 5y ago
  I don't think you can easily do this in vim, but search over the entire code base ignoring anything ignored by git. You can obviously do this with git itself, but it is nice having an interactive list of results.
  - ibraheemdev 5y ago
    https://github.com/junegunn/fzf.vim https://github.com/junegunn/fzf.vim + ripgrep is really great for that. There is also the native `:vimgrep` command.
  - rodamaral 5y ago
    You can easily do it and much more in neovim with telescope https://github.com/nvim-telescope/telescope.nvim https://github.com/nvim-telescope/telescope.nvim
Epitom3 5y ago
all those things work in neovim aswell