4 ms·

That’s an interesting take and I agree. I thought about it more like supply chain management, of which queues are a part.

amelius 5y ago
Did anyone tackle the bullwhip effect [1] in their microservices architecture? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip_effect
Closi 5y ago
Unfortunately it’s nothing like supply chain management in reality! It’s a bit like automated warehouse design but not really (Supply chain & logistics consultant here).
- phamilton 5y ago
  What are some of the misconceptions that make it so different? "I need iron plates but there aren't any available" just feels so intuitively like a supply chain problem, I'd love to learn how the real world is so much more complicated.
  - chii 5y ago
    i suppose supply chain management involves negotiation and business acumen, rather than manufacturing process efficiency.
    - quartesixte 5y ago
      Yes. If supply chain management was just efficiency and forecasting, it wouldn’t be it’s own giant department in many manufacturing organizations. There is an entire contracts negotiation side to it. Which is really fuzzy and filled with all sorts of intentional inefficiencies (price-wise) brought about by competing interests and incentives.
  - wffurr 5y ago
    You don't place orders with your suppliers, forecast demand from your buyers, account for lead time, etc.
    - hirundo 5y ago
      Forecasting demand and scheduling production are very much part of Factorio.
      - ironSkillet 5y ago
        Yes, but these forecasts can be deterministically computed, whereas in the real world, there are so many unknowns that have to be factored in somehow.
        ShamelessC 5y ago
        They can be - but in the context of the game; they only ever are at the advanced level of gameplay. In general people aren't all running excel analysis on their factorio playthroughs (although I guarantee someone does).
  - kortilla 5y ago
    There is no market in factorio and supplies are produced at nice constant rates. It’s pretty much the exact opposite of supply chain management because the supply chain behaves perfectly. There is no uncertainty.
    - ShamelessC 5y ago
      I think the analogy for the entropy introduced by a "market" is just the player's attention span and long-term planning skills. In a beginner-intermediate session, the player can and will have highly variable production rates due to an inability to grok the complexity of what they have built. It's of course very similar to programming in that way. I agree that the game is not trying to be a market simulator however.
  - Closi 5y ago
    > What are some of the misconceptions that make it so different? "I need iron plates but there aren't any available" just feels so intuitively like a supply chain problem, I'd love to learn how the real world is so much more complicated. It's definitely a supply chain problem, but the way it is solved in Factorio (i.e. build a mine and a conveyor belt) is different to the way it is solved in reality (create a spec for the iron plate, a procurement process, contract negotiations, raising purchase orders, organising freight, managing compliance, all of which may be split across different teams). Then the iron plate company probably has the same thing to do for the iron - they probably don't own the mines where the iron ore comes from, so they also have to procure, contract, raise PO's, organise freight e.t.c. So in reality, SCM is usually more about managing all those relationships and contracts rather than getting involved in end-to-end optimisation (which is sometimes done, but the details are the responsibility of another company - i.e. if a car company needs more bolts, they don't get involved in considering where a mine needs to be opened).
- jhgb 5y ago
  > It’s a bit like automated warehouse design Don't we call that "production systems engineering"?
  - Closi 5y ago
    I would agree, although typically the companies, technologies and people involved in automated warehouse design are different to those doing production systems engineering. (e.g. automated production has a bigger focus on cells, robotics and in-line production, while logistics automation is often more about automated storage and retrieval systems, sortation, piece-picking systems etc). There is a huge crossover though.
musingsole 5y ago
Are there other data structures that need to be brought in for supply chains? Naively, it seems like it's queues with variable delays all the way down.

amelius 5y ago

Did anyone tackle the bullwhip effect [1] in their microservices architecture? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip_effect

Closi 5y ago

Unfortunately it’s nothing like supply chain management in reality! It’s a bit like automated warehouse design but not really (Supply chain & logistics consultant here).

phamilton 5y ago
What are some of the misconceptions that make it so different? "I need iron plates but there aren't any available" just feels so intuitively like a supply chain problem, I'd love to learn how the real world is so much more complicated.
- chii 5y ago
  i suppose supply chain management involves negotiation and business acumen, rather than manufacturing process efficiency.
  - quartesixte 5y ago
    Yes. If supply chain management was just efficiency and forecasting, it wouldn’t be it’s own giant department in many manufacturing organizations. There is an entire contracts negotiation side to it. Which is really fuzzy and filled with all sorts of intentional inefficiencies (price-wise) brought about by competing interests and incentives.
- wffurr 5y ago
  You don't place orders with your suppliers, forecast demand from your buyers, account for lead time, etc.
  - hirundo 5y ago
    Forecasting demand and scheduling production are very much part of Factorio.
    - ironSkillet 5y ago
      Yes, but these forecasts can be deterministically computed, whereas in the real world, there are so many unknowns that have to be factored in somehow.
      - ShamelessC 5y ago
        They can be - but in the context of the game; they only ever are at the advanced level of gameplay. In general people aren't all running excel analysis on their factorio playthroughs (although I guarantee someone does).
- kortilla 5y ago
  There is no market in factorio and supplies are produced at nice constant rates. It’s pretty much the exact opposite of supply chain management because the supply chain behaves perfectly. There is no uncertainty.
  - ShamelessC 5y ago
    I think the analogy for the entropy introduced by a "market" is just the player's attention span and long-term planning skills. In a beginner-intermediate session, the player can and will have highly variable production rates due to an inability to grok the complexity of what they have built. It's of course very similar to programming in that way. I agree that the game is not trying to be a market simulator however.
- Closi 5y ago
  > What are some of the misconceptions that make it so different? "I need iron plates but there aren't any available" just feels so intuitively like a supply chain problem, I'd love to learn how the real world is so much more complicated. It's definitely a supply chain problem, but the way it is solved in Factorio (i.e. build a mine and a conveyor belt) is different to the way it is solved in reality (create a spec for the iron plate, a procurement process, contract negotiations, raising purchase orders, organising freight, managing compliance, all of which may be split across different teams). Then the iron plate company probably has the same thing to do for the iron - they probably don't own the mines where the iron ore comes from, so they also have to procure, contract, raise PO's, organise freight e.t.c. So in reality, SCM is usually more about managing all those relationships and contracts rather than getting involved in end-to-end optimisation (which is sometimes done, but the details are the responsibility of another company - i.e. if a car company needs more bolts, they don't get involved in considering where a mine needs to be opened).
jhgb 5y ago
> It’s a bit like automated warehouse design Don't we call that "production systems engineering"?
- Closi 5y ago
  I would agree, although typically the companies, technologies and people involved in automated warehouse design are different to those doing production systems engineering. (e.g. automated production has a bigger focus on cells, robotics and in-line production, while logistics automation is often more about automated storage and retrieval systems, sortation, piece-picking systems etc). There is a huge crossover though.

musingsole 5y ago

Are there other data structures that need to be brought in for supply chains? Naively, it seems like it's queues with variable delays all the way down.