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For over 25 years I wondered why social events drained me and what neurological phenomenon the metaphor "energy" stood for (which this article and many others l

by hliyan 5y ago

For over 25 years I wondered why social events drained me and what neurological phenomenon the metaphor "energy" stood for (which this article and many others like it don't seem to bother investigating). I've recently come to realize that it's the extent to which you see other human beings as a threat, which causes your brain to keep its "shields up", which can feel exhausting. After a observing myself a lot during social interactions, I've noticed that I feel drained to the extent I think the people around me can potentially judge me: I feel highly drained during extended family events, class reunions or ceremonies, but I feel perfectly fine amongst a small group of friends who have a don't-give a-sh*t attitude toward social propriety. I've also noticed that alcohol (a disinhibitor) can dramatically reduce the drain. It's also significantly reduced if I find a table with a few people I like, and get engrossed in a deep discussion and end up forgetting that I'm surrounded by other tables. Perhaps this energy we speak of is the energy the brain expends to continuously compute the requirements of the social contract in members of our species who don't have it sufficiently hardwired.

mikevm 5y ago
It's also possible that you might have social anxiety, btw. Regarding introversion and "energy" - https://www.quietrev.com/why-introverts-and-extroverts-are-different-the-science/ https://www.quietrev.com/why-introverts-and-extroverts-are-d...
- hliyan 5y ago
  Would you say introversion and social anxiety are two distinct phenomena? I always viewed these as existing on the same spectrum.
  - psyc 5y ago
    I thought the consensus was that they're distinct. In my case, I never experience any social anxiety (aside from public speaking) but I consider myself extremely introverted. I strongly prefer to be by myself doing solo activities, and never feel the need to see other people. But when I do encounter others, it's a perfectly comfortable experience and I can be as friendly and charming as anybody.
    - hliyan 5y ago
      In my case, funnily enough, I find public speaking much more enjoyable than attending, say, a wedding. I guess this is very multi-dimensional thing...
    - lawwantsin17 5y ago
      The consensus is confused.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    Personally, I say they are related. For some years I thought I had social anxiety, meaning irrational feelings of anxiety triggered by social situations. In retrospect, I think of myself as a gregarious introvert. I love people but they wear me the fuck out. For many years I just pushed past those feelings, specifically not listening to my body as the author recommends in step 4. So I was in effect gradually training my nervous system that "social situation = pain". An important function of animal nervous systems is learned aversion to painful situations. So my feelings of anxiety about social situations were not irrational, but correct and proportionate. Once I started taking my own health and feelings seriously, what I saw as social anxiety gradually dissipated. For those interested in the mechanisms here, I highly recommend "The Body Keeps the Score". It finally gave me an intellectual framework for a lot of my experiences around this.
  - tgaj 5y ago
    I have this mental model that introversion is something you are born with and social anxiety is something that you can get during you life (for example, because of how other people treated you)
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    tl;dr: Enjoying being alone for long periods of time makes me an introvert. Being actively anxious at the thought of interacting with someone I don't know is social anxiety. --- I think they are definitely different things. This is something I've thought about for a long time. I've come to and changed my opinion on the distinction many times throughout my life, and I probably will change them again, but I currently like how I see them. So, here's my journey, opinions, and why I think they are different: I used to think I was just a little shy, at least that's what other people said when they described me. I eventually came to terms that I was shy. I was just another kid who was quiet at first but would warm up to people. Then I came across the idea of being introverted, and I was self-labeled an introvert. Other people also seemed to think so and also called me this. Same thing, I was generally quiet, but it was now because "talking to people drained my energy, and isolation regenerated it". But then I realized I did enjoy talking to certain people, but I was scared to. I came across the idea of the "shy extrovert". For a short while I thought this was me. After a while this labeled made less and less sense to me, but I kept it since I didn't really have a better label. Finally, I realized I had social anxiety. I realized that my fear of asking questions, or going to the gym, or to schedule appointments on the phone, or to really do any uncertain human interaction was not introversion. It was social anxiety. However, I still feel that my contentment with being alone for long periods of time is not due to social anxiety. I still eventually become lonely. When I'm lonely, my social anxiety hinders me from seeking human interaction, but it was the introversion in the first place that enjoyed the solitude.
penjelly 5y ago
not sure if this is backed up by scientific data or not but this is an interesting perspective ive never considered. Anecdotally: I notice as my confidence grows I enjoy social gatherings more and am less tired afterwards, whereas 5 years ago almost every social event would be tiring, now some are actually energizing.
- hliyan 5y ago
  I've noticed the same. I think self-confidence grows with age and we become more and more comfortable in our own skin. But then at some point (perhaps in our fifties) we pass a threshold and enter the witty curmudgeon territory. Edit: on the science bit. Yes, this is merely what I tell myself. But if we were to test this, perhaps we can do so by monitoring the glucose consumption of brains of introverts in different types of social situations?
tartoran 5y ago
I actually find large groups distracting and disorienting to the point that I have a hard time decoding conversations and that extra churn is what exhausts me in the first place. Also, trying to keep the mask on is also a bit exhausting so the moment I tell everyone that Im introverted and no longer have to pretend Im not things start to improve a bit. Having said that, I think you have a point with the threat perception part. I do enjoy social contexts where I feel like I fit in and can be myself. The problem seems to be more with social contexts I am obligated to participate in, where I have to put on a mask of interest; probably the threat is to be found that you’re really not interested into that interaction.
- amelius 5y ago
  > I have a hard time decoding conversations and that extra churn is what exhausts me in the first place Yes. The more you shy away from big gatherings, the harder it becomes to decode audio signals in noisy environments. It also doesn't help if you're much smaller or taller than other people.
  - astrophysics 5y ago
    Wow, maybe this explains why I can't hear anything in large groups of people.
    - Vedor 5y ago
      Just curious, have you checked your hearing recently? For a long time I believed that I can't hear anything in large groups because I'm introvert (which I am) and large groups exhaust me. Turned out to be hearing problem. And the thing is that I never had a feeling that my hearing is poor. But some day I got tinnitus that did not go away over time, and after some tests I learnt that I'm almost deaf for high-frequency tones. It impairs speech understanding, especially when there is a lot of background noise like on busy street... or family gatherings.
      - tartoran 5y ago
amelius 5y ago
Yes, I sometimes wonder if I have "social impostor syndrome", and if this is what causes all the energy drainage.
paulsutter 5y ago
Public speaking seemed impossible to me until I actually had something I wanted to say to a given group of people. Then it felt natural. The same applies to parties or events. I enjoy them if I have something I want to discuss with the people present Of course either case is fairly rare for me
- lgrialn 5y ago
  Yes, a realization I came to awfully belatedly. As a kid, all those speeches and essays where I struggled anxiously with topics I didn’t know much about or care much about, and bullshitting is not one my strengths or preferences. Decades later, I’m rather more aware and more opinionated, but my days of addressing groups of people seem to be long over.
  - robryan 5y ago
    What got me as a kid was both not having strong opinions and worrying about whether my weak opinions would be acceptable to the other kids. Music for example was a bit of a minefield as I worried whether what I would suggest would be something others would approve of. Eventually developed much stronger tastes where I would be happy to stand by it if others didn’t like it.
- hiepph 5y ago
  This is actually my case, some people saw me present a topic I love to talk about would say I'm an extrovert. But in reality I rarely speak a thing in a debate about a problem I don't really care about, so people call me an introvert. I gradually don't care about the opinions anymore and just want to preserve my energy for the things I really care about.
vorpalhex 5y ago
As an alternative to alcohol, I found a low dose of cbd oil helps "drop the shields" without any side effects.
DanHulton 5y ago
I recently had a similar epiphany, but for me, the judgement I found was internal. Essentially, when in social situations where I do not understand all of the expectations (my SO, long-standing friends, familiar work settings), I'm not able to be in the moment, and have what I have described as a "monitor process" running, analyzing the situation, my interactions, peoples reactions to them, etc. Running that "monitor process" (yes, I'm a computer nerd, how did you know) is _exhausting,_ but effective. For example, people say I'm good with kids, but it is definitely not natural. I'm redlining that process to evaluate the situation and react appropriately. I know friends who just "recharge" when hanging out with kids. I'd say _they're_ good with kids, I can just fake it for an afternoon (and then I need a nap). I've also noticed it with D&D. I enjoy getting out and playing it with friends, but also, it becomes a group of new people, kinda, and you're a new person, kinda, so again that "monitor process" comes into play, and by the time we're done a session and I get home, I just kind of need to crawl into a chair and read a book in silence for an hour. But definitely, absolutely, it's that judgement you mention that's a primary factor, I guess I just see that judgement (personally) coming as more of an internal force.
- vidarh 5y ago
  That might well match me better than the person above, in that it fits well with the fact I don't have a problem with people I can keep at a distance and where I understand the expectations just fine (e.g. holding a speech happens within a very narrow set of parameters; I don't need to interact much with people) draining me, but even my son is exhausting (I still love spending time with him, but need time to "recover").
ca98am79 5y ago
For me the draining part is small talk. I don't really feel confident in my ability to small talk and I also really don't like to do it. But I feel it is a kind of bonding ritual between strangers that I don't understand. I feel that most people don't even think about it and can just do it naturally, like riding a bike. But for me it is like juggling ten balls. Even checking out groceries with a cashier is really draining.
- brhsagain 5y ago
  I used to feel this way until I heard an explanation that made it click ever since. Small talk is a channel with a single bit of information, which is "I am not your enemy." This is different from "I am your friend." It's the same reason monkeys pull bugs out of each other's fur. All people want from you when making small talk is for you to talk about the inane things in your life with a positive energy. The inane chatter shows you're normal and relatable (you're someone who's going to enjoy the latest TV show and get burgers for lunch, instead of shooting up a school), and the positive energy shows you're not harboring ill will towards them.
  - fffact 5y ago
    So you are suggesting I should be making small talk to reassure people?
    - vidarh 5y ago
      The interesting thing, and I tested this extensively years ago in an attempt to be more social, is that it takes very little. Most people don't care about you talking, as much as being given the right signals. And most people love to be the ones talking. Here's an "exercise": Next time you're in a shop, get your wallet ready before you get to the cashier. At the cashiers most people look down at their wallet or at their shopping, and so giving cashiers eye contact is like a super-power. Look them in the eye and say "how are you?" as you pay. And rather than hurry, pause at that point for a second. It's absolutely remarkable how much of a difference it made, to the point where I dialled it back because it led to too much extra social contact for me. E.g. I also started greeting the bus drivers at my local bus route, and within a week one of them recognised me at the gym and started talking to me regularly. I'd lived there and taken the same bus for a decade prior to that and never gotten recognised. At the shop near where I worked, cashiers who had never said a word to me in the previous years, suddenly started telling me their life stories, and I'd observe them rush to open new lanes when I approached and there was a queue, sometimes even specifically telling me. And I made no effort to actually hold a conversation beyond that "how are you?" or occasionally "how was your weekend?" once I'd talked to them a couple of times. The point being that you can learn a handful of little "magic" incantations that basically hand all the job of the chatting over to the other person, and leave you basically doing simple "followups" like asking "really?" or agreeing. The irony is that doing that, you can let people learn absolutely nothing about you, and they'll still go away with a positive impression of you because you gave them an opportunity to talk about the things they care about. If you're interested in that approach, Leil Lowndes has books that are quite useful in offering advice that are relatively pragmatic in this way of how to "be social" without necessarily being a chatterbox. I think "Goodbye to shy" is one of them.
ksec 5y ago
Very Similar here. I have recently discovered I get a lot of energy from Teaching kids or even just watching Kids play. Playing around with them may drain my physical energy, but mentally I feel so much better every time. Whenever I see them I see infinite possibilities. The world is so much better it is now than it ever was, despite I know all the shit that is happening in real world. And I have no problem speaking with Groups of parents in any social settings. And in a social event where our interest aligned like some technology forum. But as you said I do get burnout in my previous settings with Business Meetings, I have to shield up, and after been through a lot of shit I know it is basically war zone. Not just outside but often a lot of in-flighting within companies. It is tiring. Especially when I am almost 100% correct in predicting outcome, while often tasked with fixing it. And the people judging on you because you are XYZ. I still remember the day I got promoted everybody's faces changed. And then later you know they all want a piece of you. And an unpopular opinion, I really like Peter Thiel's take on it, most extrovert are low conviction people. And they are also the ones that tends to suffer from herd mentality. While also offering their herd views to the others since extrovert tends to run the world. And that is how you get herd mentality from top to bottom.
MichailP 5y ago
I must add that this feeling "people judging you" is mostly YOU. That is we THINK what other people are thinking, as we don't have direct link to their brains. The intensity of this feeling is related to your personal feeling of your self worth, which again doesn't have much to do with any realistic criteria. From my personal experience people love you, find you interesting, miss you when you are not there, etc. much more that you think.
- lgrialn 5y ago
  I had an upbringing where I was very much judged. And even in adulthood, my experience is that I like myself fairly well, but I am well aware that other people do not normally take to me, are not capable of grasping what I’m about or seeing any value in it, etc.
- roofone 5y ago
  I don't fully disagree, but I am constantly judging others (much to my dismay). And, then I also see articles like "Research indicates that only about half of perceived friendships are mutual" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12246819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12246819).
- GDC7 5y ago
  > The intensity of this feeling is related to your personal feeling of your self worth Calling none sense. IT'S NOT IN YOUR HEAD! There are objective levels to it. Say I work in film making and specialize on actors wardrobes , I can make a good living, perhaps even reach a 7 figures net worth. Fast forward award seasons comes around, during the afterparties everybody wants to talk and interact with the stars. Even if in my head my self-confidence is sky high and I am super social, approaching everybody, these people would avoid me and judge me as a weirdo, both during the party (to my face) and afterwards. In that moment I am an obstacle to their real social goal of the night: interacting with Jennifer Lawrance, taking a picture with her, or even getting any reaction from her (including negative ones and extremely negative ones such as flipping the bird or telling people off). This is an extreme example , of course, but generally people go to social gatherings and have a pretty clear idea of the person or even the profile of people they want to interact with. This means that people do , in fact, judge or pre-classify or create standings in their minds, and if you aren't one of those sought after people then an interaction with you will most likely received as a disappointment compared to an ideal scenario that they had built in their own minds. This means that you'd be judged.
hsrhtt 5y ago
I just made this account to say that this really resonated with me. I also have a decent size of group of friends who I can relax and feel energized afterwards. We also drink and generally don't have a lot of social formalities. But nothing drains my energy like my family and in-laws. We are from developing country with a lot of social and religious rules. And whenever I am with them I am not being myself. I have to keep my shield up. Also I disagree with another sibling commenter said that the most of judging is only in our own mind. In my case when I turned 40, I decided enough is enough, I will just be myself with my family. I slowly lowered my guards, talked about movies that I really like, how I really treat my kids, what I really do on weekends, stopped eating obscene amount of food with them, etc. And immediately, there was onslaught of judgemental comments, comments about accepting our new countries culture and forgetting our better culture (\s). But what really bothered me was the comments about my parenting style and how I was ruining my kids' life.
- musingsole 5y ago
  It's only paranoia if they aren't judging you.
peruvian 5y ago
Yeah this is it. Once you stop thinking "all these people will probably judge me or dislike me" or "I need to be on the defensive" when you don't even know the people there, social events become much easier.
Zababa 5y ago
Very insightful comment, thanks for sharing. I was thinking recently about how shame plays a big role in my relations with other people, but I hadn't connected that to social anxiety and introversion.
Buttons840 5y ago
> I've recently come to realize that it's the extent to which you see other human beings as a threat, which causes your brain to keep its "shields up" Thanks for this insight. It says clearly something I've been feeling, but haven't articulated. I've thought about taking some martial arts classes, perhaps jiu-jitsu because I know they "roll" from the first class onwards. I think it would help me get over part of my anxiety. However, I'm 40 and in mediocre shape, and I'm worried that the risk of getting injured outweighs the benefits.
- np- 5y ago
  I am just a random somebody around your age in previously mediocre but now significantly improved shape since starting kickboxing. One of the most important things I learned is that all that most age related “injuries” and “soreness” etc is counterintuitively almost always caused by _lack_ of exercise rather than being too active. In fact it’s probably impossible to be so active as to outweigh the benefits you’d get, it’s basically entirely a positive feedback loop once you get started. (Note I am not talking about people who have suffered serious physical trauma and need to recover, that is something else entirely—-just more like an average couch potato).
- rsyring 5y ago
  I did BJJ and Pankration for a number of years, rolled a lot. There are plenty of benefits but, at least for me, it didn't change my general dislike/discomfort with small talk, people, crowds, etc. It got me used to large heavy sweaty guys being really close, sometimes smothering me, but that just doesn't translate to those other situations for me. Ironically, I'm usually more comfortable rolling with a stranger than talking with them. Some BJJ groups will be great places to learn at your age. Look for people who demonstrate care that you are new, teach you how to defend yourself, and are generally devoid of ego/machoism. Especially the senior people leading the training. Gracie BJJ will teach you technique for months before they let you roll. That's probably not a bad thing because you'll learn how to do things and will be less likely to hurt yourself and will have time to build conditioning.
freetinker 5y ago
Energy probably = dopamine levels in this context. Also, what you describe exactly mirrors my experience.
Stupulous 5y ago
Adding a bit to the other side of the equation, I think extraversion and introversion are independent spectrums. The 'introverts get energy from being alone, extraverts get energy from social interactions" explanation implies that introverts can function as hermits in total isolation and extraverts have no need for 'me time'; this is not my experience. Almost everyone has some baseline social needs that need to be met, and almost everyone needs some quantity of time alone.
wvh 5y ago
I concur with what you say, but rather than social threat, I think of it as over-stimulation and sensory overload. Rather than being socially introverted, to me the challenge is dealing with the sounds, visuals, distractions and general chaos of most social situations. It feels more like having a tennis ball cannon aimed at ones head rather than having to keep ones guard up and shield oneself against others. Sounds like there are different ways to define or come across as introverted. I attribute my disposition more to sensory sensitivity reminiscent of autistic or ADHD-like traits rather than social anxiety.
leobg 5y ago
There is this phenomenon called “the mere exposure effect“: Merely exposing yourself to a situation again and again will lessen your anxiety and put the kinds of automations in place, in terms of perception and behavior, that will make you feel “comfortable“ (i.e. allow you to handle the baseline situation on autopilot, so your energy is free for higher level functions, such as strategy or simply enjoyment). This means that, being an introvert, you can make yourself tremendously more comfortable in extraverted [1] situations simply by going to a bar or a coffee shop twice a week and spending time there. Simply being there slowly gets you used to the environment. (It’s very similar to desensitizing a dog to fireworks, for example. Sorry! :)) Also, I suspect this is what actually creates these differences in personality types in the first place. Some people get really comfortable being by themselves, and others get really comfortable being around others. It starts in early childhood, and becomes a self reinforcing cycle. In many ways, it makes sense to do more of that which you’re already good at. Changing your environment is often more profitable than trying to change yourself.
- naasking 5y ago
  I think the exposure effect only works well if your exposure was neutral or positive, or how you weight negative vs. neutral or positive experiences. For people who ingrain negative experiences more strongly than the others, one bad experience could outweigh 10 neutral or positive ones. So if introversion is some strong social anxiety, and you have one bad social experience at a bar, it could just reinforce that anxiety out of proportion to the actual reality. The brain isn't always rational unfortunately.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    To this, I actually kept a log for a while, on the basis that some people do tend to remember negative experiences more than positive. And indeed, it was interesting to see how I remembered events after a few weeks vs. what I had written down on the day, and it was useful to try to be more aware of this. As a learning experience everyone ought to try this for a short period. But I don't think introversion and social anxiety is the same thing, though I absolutely buy that they probably often co-occur. To the extent I have any social anxieties, they are very specific and limited, and don't really affect me much, but the energy drain of interacting with people does.
ww520 5y ago
Describing the "energy" as the mental energy spent coping with the social environment is a very good insight. I found myself exhausted after a long conversation, especially one to one highly technical discussion. If it's a group and I can sit back to listen to others and to interject from time to time, I don't feel drained.
vidarh 5y ago
This is interesting, but I don't think it is universal. Specifically I don't think it matches me. I find social contact even with e.g. my girlfriend or my son tiring. Even though e.g. my girlfriend is amazed at just how relaxed I seem to be. And in a sense it's true - around people I am comfortable with nothing will faze me. I can sit in a meditative state with total chaos around me with ease. But whenever I participate in any way, it drains me. Doesn't mean I don't like spending time with people, but if I participate in conversation or engage in any kind of way, no matter how enjoyable or chilled out the situation might be, I need alone time afterwards. Lockdown was so relaxing for me. Though it seems to be predominantly in-person contact (though I don't really know where e.g. video calls fall), sometimes even online interactions drain me and I just totally shut down and ignore the outside world to relax. As an interesting addendum: To me the type of social events that are most draining are opposite of yours. When I can set myself apart (such as holding speeches, even in front of huge crowds) or by "drowning in the crowd" like in large events where I can just ignore everyone most of the time, I'm fine. It's like being alone. I held the commencement speech for my university in front of thousands of students, faculty and a TV crew. Piece of cake. Small groups where people expect interactions, on the other hand, even if they are people I'd totally trust and where I can let my guard down totally, are brutal on my energy levels and far more stressful as well.

by hliyan 5y ago

mikevm 5y ago

It's also possible that you might have social anxiety, btw. Regarding introversion and "energy" - https://www.quietrev.com/why-introverts-and-extroverts-are-different-the-science/ https://www.quietrev.com/why-introverts-and-extroverts-are-d...

hliyan 5y ago
Would you say introversion and social anxiety are two distinct phenomena? I always viewed these as existing on the same spectrum.
- psyc 5y ago
  I thought the consensus was that they're distinct. In my case, I never experience any social anxiety (aside from public speaking) but I consider myself extremely introverted. I strongly prefer to be by myself doing solo activities, and never feel the need to see other people. But when I do encounter others, it's a perfectly comfortable experience and I can be as friendly and charming as anybody.
  - hliyan 5y ago
    In my case, funnily enough, I find public speaking much more enjoyable than attending, say, a wedding. I guess this is very multi-dimensional thing...
  - lawwantsin17 5y ago
    The consensus is confused.
- wpietri 5y ago
  Personally, I say they are related. For some years I thought I had social anxiety, meaning irrational feelings of anxiety triggered by social situations. In retrospect, I think of myself as a gregarious introvert. I love people but they wear me the fuck out. For many years I just pushed past those feelings, specifically not listening to my body as the author recommends in step 4. So I was in effect gradually training my nervous system that "social situation = pain". An important function of animal nervous systems is learned aversion to painful situations. So my feelings of anxiety about social situations were not irrational, but correct and proportionate. Once I started taking my own health and feelings seriously, what I saw as social anxiety gradually dissipated. For those interested in the mechanisms here, I highly recommend "The Body Keeps the Score". It finally gave me an intellectual framework for a lot of my experiences around this.
- tgaj 5y ago
  I have this mental model that introversion is something you are born with and social anxiety is something that you can get during you life (for example, because of how other people treated you)
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  tl;dr: Enjoying being alone for long periods of time makes me an introvert. Being actively anxious at the thought of interacting with someone I don't know is social anxiety. --- I think they are definitely different things. This is something I've thought about for a long time. I've come to and changed my opinion on the distinction many times throughout my life, and I probably will change them again, but I currently like how I see them. So, here's my journey, opinions, and why I think they are different: I used to think I was just a little shy, at least that's what other people said when they described me. I eventually came to terms that I was shy. I was just another kid who was quiet at first but would warm up to people. Then I came across the idea of being introverted, and I was self-labeled an introvert. Other people also seemed to think so and also called me this. Same thing, I was generally quiet, but it was now because "talking to people drained my energy, and isolation regenerated it". But then I realized I did enjoy talking to certain people, but I was scared to. I came across the idea of the "shy extrovert". For a short while I thought this was me. After a while this labeled made less and less sense to me, but I kept it since I didn't really have a better label. Finally, I realized I had social anxiety. I realized that my fear of asking questions, or going to the gym, or to schedule appointments on the phone, or to really do any uncertain human interaction was not introversion. It was social anxiety. However, I still feel that my contentment with being alone for long periods of time is not due to social anxiety. I still eventually become lonely. When I'm lonely, my social anxiety hinders me from seeking human interaction, but it was the introversion in the first place that enjoyed the solitude.

penjelly 5y ago

not sure if this is backed up by scientific data or not but this is an interesting perspective ive never considered. Anecdotally: I notice as my confidence grows I enjoy social gatherings more and am less tired afterwards, whereas 5 years ago almost every social event would be tiring, now some are actually energizing.

hliyan 5y ago
I've noticed the same. I think self-confidence grows with age and we become more and more comfortable in our own skin. But then at some point (perhaps in our fifties) we pass a threshold and enter the witty curmudgeon territory. Edit: on the science bit. Yes, this is merely what I tell myself. But if we were to test this, perhaps we can do so by monitoring the glucose consumption of brains of introverts in different types of social situations?

tartoran 5y ago

I actually find large groups distracting and disorienting to the point that I have a hard time decoding conversations and that extra churn is what exhausts me in the first place. Also, trying to keep the mask on is also a bit exhausting so the moment I tell everyone that Im introverted and no longer have to pretend Im not things start to improve a bit. Having said that, I think you have a point with the threat perception part. I do enjoy social contexts where I feel like I fit in and can be myself. The problem seems to be more with social contexts I am obligated to participate in, where I have to put on a mask of interest; probably the threat is to be found that you’re really not interested into that interaction.

amelius 5y ago
> I have a hard time decoding conversations and that extra churn is what exhausts me in the first place Yes. The more you shy away from big gatherings, the harder it becomes to decode audio signals in noisy environments. It also doesn't help if you're much smaller or taller than other people.
- astrophysics 5y ago
  Wow, maybe this explains why I can't hear anything in large groups of people.
  - Vedor 5y ago
    Just curious, have you checked your hearing recently? For a long time I believed that I can't hear anything in large groups because I'm introvert (which I am) and large groups exhaust me. Turned out to be hearing problem. And the thing is that I never had a feeling that my hearing is poor. But some day I got tinnitus that did not go away over time, and after some tests I learnt that I'm almost deaf for high-frequency tones. It impairs speech understanding, especially when there is a lot of background noise like on busy street... or family gatherings.
    - tartoran 5y ago

amelius 5y ago

Yes, I sometimes wonder if I have "social impostor syndrome", and if this is what causes all the energy drainage.

paulsutter 5y ago

Public speaking seemed impossible to me until I actually had something I wanted to say to a given group of people. Then it felt natural. The same applies to parties or events. I enjoy them if I have something I want to discuss with the people present Of course either case is fairly rare for me

lgrialn 5y ago
Yes, a realization I came to awfully belatedly. As a kid, all those speeches and essays where I struggled anxiously with topics I didn’t know much about or care much about, and bullshitting is not one my strengths or preferences. Decades later, I’m rather more aware and more opinionated, but my days of addressing groups of people seem to be long over.
- robryan 5y ago
  What got me as a kid was both not having strong opinions and worrying about whether my weak opinions would be acceptable to the other kids. Music for example was a bit of a minefield as I worried whether what I would suggest would be something others would approve of. Eventually developed much stronger tastes where I would be happy to stand by it if others didn’t like it.
hiepph 5y ago
This is actually my case, some people saw me present a topic I love to talk about would say I'm an extrovert. But in reality I rarely speak a thing in a debate about a problem I don't really care about, so people call me an introvert. I gradually don't care about the opinions anymore and just want to preserve my energy for the things I really care about.

vorpalhex 5y ago

As an alternative to alcohol, I found a low dose of cbd oil helps "drop the shields" without any side effects.

DanHulton 5y ago

I recently had a similar epiphany, but for me, the judgement I found was internal. Essentially, when in social situations where I do not understand all of the expectations (my SO, long-standing friends, familiar work settings), I'm not able to be in the moment, and have what I have described as a "monitor process" running, analyzing the situation, my interactions, peoples reactions to them, etc. Running that "monitor process" (yes, I'm a computer nerd, how did you know) is _exhausting,_ but effective. For example, people say I'm good with kids, but it is definitely not natural. I'm redlining that process to evaluate the situation and react appropriately. I know friends who just "recharge" when hanging out with kids. I'd say _they're_ good with kids, I can just fake it for an afternoon (and then I need a nap). I've also noticed it with D&D. I enjoy getting out and playing it with friends, but also, it becomes a group of new people, kinda, and you're a new person, kinda, so again that "monitor process" comes into play, and by the time we're done a session and I get home, I just kind of need to crawl into a chair and read a book in silence for an hour. But definitely, absolutely, it's that judgement you mention that's a primary factor, I guess I just see that judgement (personally) coming as more of an internal force.

vidarh 5y ago
That might well match me better than the person above, in that it fits well with the fact I don't have a problem with people I can keep at a distance and where I understand the expectations just fine (e.g. holding a speech happens within a very narrow set of parameters; I don't need to interact much with people) draining me, but even my son is exhausting (I still love spending time with him, but need time to "recover").

ca98am79 5y ago

For me the draining part is small talk. I don't really feel confident in my ability to small talk and I also really don't like to do it. But I feel it is a kind of bonding ritual between strangers that I don't understand. I feel that most people don't even think about it and can just do it naturally, like riding a bike. But for me it is like juggling ten balls. Even checking out groceries with a cashier is really draining.

brhsagain 5y ago
I used to feel this way until I heard an explanation that made it click ever since. Small talk is a channel with a single bit of information, which is "I am not your enemy." This is different from "I am your friend." It's the same reason monkeys pull bugs out of each other's fur. All people want from you when making small talk is for you to talk about the inane things in your life with a positive energy. The inane chatter shows you're normal and relatable (you're someone who's going to enjoy the latest TV show and get burgers for lunch, instead of shooting up a school), and the positive energy shows you're not harboring ill will towards them.
- fffact 5y ago
  So you are suggesting I should be making small talk to reassure people?
  - vidarh 5y ago
    The interesting thing, and I tested this extensively years ago in an attempt to be more social, is that it takes very little. Most people don't care about you talking, as much as being given the right signals. And most people love to be the ones talking. Here's an "exercise": Next time you're in a shop, get your wallet ready before you get to the cashier. At the cashiers most people look down at their wallet or at their shopping, and so giving cashiers eye contact is like a super-power. Look them in the eye and say "how are you?" as you pay. And rather than hurry, pause at that point for a second. It's absolutely remarkable how much of a difference it made, to the point where I dialled it back because it led to too much extra social contact for me. E.g. I also started greeting the bus drivers at my local bus route, and within a week one of them recognised me at the gym and started talking to me regularly. I'd lived there and taken the same bus for a decade prior to that and never gotten recognised. At the shop near where I worked, cashiers who had never said a word to me in the previous years, suddenly started telling me their life stories, and I'd observe them rush to open new lanes when I approached and there was a queue, sometimes even specifically telling me. And I made no effort to actually hold a conversation beyond that "how are you?" or occasionally "how was your weekend?" once I'd talked to them a couple of times. The point being that you can learn a handful of little "magic" incantations that basically hand all the job of the chatting over to the other person, and leave you basically doing simple "followups" like asking "really?" or agreeing. The irony is that doing that, you can let people learn absolutely nothing about you, and they'll still go away with a positive impression of you because you gave them an opportunity to talk about the things they care about. If you're interested in that approach, Leil Lowndes has books that are quite useful in offering advice that are relatively pragmatic in this way of how to "be social" without necessarily being a chatterbox. I think "Goodbye to shy" is one of them.

ksec 5y ago

Very Similar here. I have recently discovered I get a lot of energy from Teaching kids or even just watching Kids play. Playing around with them may drain my physical energy, but mentally I feel so much better every time. Whenever I see them I see infinite possibilities. The world is so much better it is now than it ever was, despite I know all the shit that is happening in real world. And I have no problem speaking with Groups of parents in any social settings. And in a social event where our interest aligned like some technology forum. But as you said I do get burnout in my previous settings with Business Meetings, I have to shield up, and after been through a lot of shit I know it is basically war zone. Not just outside but often a lot of in-flighting within companies. It is tiring. Especially when I am almost 100% correct in predicting outcome, while often tasked with fixing it. And the people judging on you because you are XYZ. I still remember the day I got promoted everybody's faces changed. And then later you know they all want a piece of you. And an unpopular opinion, I really like Peter Thiel's take on it, most extrovert are low conviction people. And they are also the ones that tends to suffer from herd mentality. While also offering their herd views to the others since extrovert tends to run the world. And that is how you get herd mentality from top to bottom.

MichailP 5y ago

I must add that this feeling "people judging you" is mostly YOU. That is we THINK what other people are thinking, as we don't have direct link to their brains. The intensity of this feeling is related to your personal feeling of your self worth, which again doesn't have much to do with any realistic criteria. From my personal experience people love you, find you interesting, miss you when you are not there, etc. much more that you think.

lgrialn 5y ago
I had an upbringing where I was very much judged. And even in adulthood, my experience is that I like myself fairly well, but I am well aware that other people do not normally take to me, are not capable of grasping what I’m about or seeing any value in it, etc.
roofone 5y ago
I don't fully disagree, but I am constantly judging others (much to my dismay). And, then I also see articles like "Research indicates that only about half of perceived friendships are mutual" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12246819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12246819).
GDC7 5y ago
> The intensity of this feeling is related to your personal feeling of your self worth Calling none sense. IT'S NOT IN YOUR HEAD! There are objective levels to it. Say I work in film making and specialize on actors wardrobes , I can make a good living, perhaps even reach a 7 figures net worth. Fast forward award seasons comes around, during the afterparties everybody wants to talk and interact with the stars. Even if in my head my self-confidence is sky high and I am super social, approaching everybody, these people would avoid me and judge me as a weirdo, both during the party (to my face) and afterwards. In that moment I am an obstacle to their real social goal of the night: interacting with Jennifer Lawrance, taking a picture with her, or even getting any reaction from her (including negative ones and extremely negative ones such as flipping the bird or telling people off). This is an extreme example , of course, but generally people go to social gatherings and have a pretty clear idea of the person or even the profile of people they want to interact with. This means that people do , in fact, judge or pre-classify or create standings in their minds, and if you aren't one of those sought after people then an interaction with you will most likely received as a disappointment compared to an ideal scenario that they had built in their own minds. This means that you'd be judged.

hsrhtt 5y ago

I just made this account to say that this really resonated with me. I also have a decent size of group of friends who I can relax and feel energized afterwards. We also drink and generally don't have a lot of social formalities. But nothing drains my energy like my family and in-laws. We are from developing country with a lot of social and religious rules. And whenever I am with them I am not being myself. I have to keep my shield up. Also I disagree with another sibling commenter said that the most of judging is only in our own mind. In my case when I turned 40, I decided enough is enough, I will just be myself with my family. I slowly lowered my guards, talked about movies that I really like, how I really treat my kids, what I really do on weekends, stopped eating obscene amount of food with them, etc. And immediately, there was onslaught of judgemental comments, comments about accepting our new countries culture and forgetting our better culture (\s). But what really bothered me was the comments about my parenting style and how I was ruining my kids' life.

musingsole 5y ago
It's only paranoia if they aren't judging you.

peruvian 5y ago

Yeah this is it. Once you stop thinking "all these people will probably judge me or dislike me" or "I need to be on the defensive" when you don't even know the people there, social events become much easier.

Zababa 5y ago

Very insightful comment, thanks for sharing. I was thinking recently about how shame plays a big role in my relations with other people, but I hadn't connected that to social anxiety and introversion.

Buttons840 5y ago

> I've recently come to realize that it's the extent to which you see other human beings as a threat, which causes your brain to keep its "shields up" Thanks for this insight. It says clearly something I've been feeling, but haven't articulated. I've thought about taking some martial arts classes, perhaps jiu-jitsu because I know they "roll" from the first class onwards. I think it would help me get over part of my anxiety. However, I'm 40 and in mediocre shape, and I'm worried that the risk of getting injured outweighs the benefits.

np- 5y ago
I am just a random somebody around your age in previously mediocre but now significantly improved shape since starting kickboxing. One of the most important things I learned is that all that most age related “injuries” and “soreness” etc is counterintuitively almost always caused by _lack_ of exercise rather than being too active. In fact it’s probably impossible to be so active as to outweigh the benefits you’d get, it’s basically entirely a positive feedback loop once you get started. (Note I am not talking about people who have suffered serious physical trauma and need to recover, that is something else entirely—-just more like an average couch potato).
rsyring 5y ago
I did BJJ and Pankration for a number of years, rolled a lot. There are plenty of benefits but, at least for me, it didn't change my general dislike/discomfort with small talk, people, crowds, etc. It got me used to large heavy sweaty guys being really close, sometimes smothering me, but that just doesn't translate to those other situations for me. Ironically, I'm usually more comfortable rolling with a stranger than talking with them. Some BJJ groups will be great places to learn at your age. Look for people who demonstrate care that you are new, teach you how to defend yourself, and are generally devoid of ego/machoism. Especially the senior people leading the training. Gracie BJJ will teach you technique for months before they let you roll. That's probably not a bad thing because you'll learn how to do things and will be less likely to hurt yourself and will have time to build conditioning.

freetinker 5y ago

Energy probably = dopamine levels in this context. Also, what you describe exactly mirrors my experience.

Stupulous 5y ago

Adding a bit to the other side of the equation, I think extraversion and introversion are independent spectrums. The 'introverts get energy from being alone, extraverts get energy from social interactions" explanation implies that introverts can function as hermits in total isolation and extraverts have no need for 'me time'; this is not my experience. Almost everyone has some baseline social needs that need to be met, and almost everyone needs some quantity of time alone.

wvh 5y ago

I concur with what you say, but rather than social threat, I think of it as over-stimulation and sensory overload. Rather than being socially introverted, to me the challenge is dealing with the sounds, visuals, distractions and general chaos of most social situations. It feels more like having a tennis ball cannon aimed at ones head rather than having to keep ones guard up and shield oneself against others. Sounds like there are different ways to define or come across as introverted. I attribute my disposition more to sensory sensitivity reminiscent of autistic or ADHD-like traits rather than social anxiety.

leobg 5y ago

There is this phenomenon called “the mere exposure effect“: Merely exposing yourself to a situation again and again will lessen your anxiety and put the kinds of automations in place, in terms of perception and behavior, that will make you feel “comfortable“ (i.e. allow you to handle the baseline situation on autopilot, so your energy is free for higher level functions, such as strategy or simply enjoyment). This means that, being an introvert, you can make yourself tremendously more comfortable in extraverted [1] situations simply by going to a bar or a coffee shop twice a week and spending time there. Simply being there slowly gets you used to the environment. (It’s very similar to desensitizing a dog to fireworks, for example. Sorry! :)) Also, I suspect this is what actually creates these differences in personality types in the first place. Some people get really comfortable being by themselves, and others get really comfortable being around others. It starts in early childhood, and becomes a self reinforcing cycle. In many ways, it makes sense to do more of that which you’re already good at. Changing your environment is often more profitable than trying to change yourself.

naasking 5y ago
I think the exposure effect only works well if your exposure was neutral or positive, or how you weight negative vs. neutral or positive experiences. For people who ingrain negative experiences more strongly than the others, one bad experience could outweigh 10 neutral or positive ones. So if introversion is some strong social anxiety, and you have one bad social experience at a bar, it could just reinforce that anxiety out of proportion to the actual reality. The brain isn't always rational unfortunately.
- vidarh 5y ago
  To this, I actually kept a log for a while, on the basis that some people do tend to remember negative experiences more than positive. And indeed, it was interesting to see how I remembered events after a few weeks vs. what I had written down on the day, and it was useful to try to be more aware of this. As a learning experience everyone ought to try this for a short period. But I don't think introversion and social anxiety is the same thing, though I absolutely buy that they probably often co-occur. To the extent I have any social anxieties, they are very specific and limited, and don't really affect me much, but the energy drain of interacting with people does.

ww520 5y ago

Describing the "energy" as the mental energy spent coping with the social environment is a very good insight. I found myself exhausted after a long conversation, especially one to one highly technical discussion. If it's a group and I can sit back to listen to others and to interject from time to time, I don't feel drained.

vidarh 5y ago

This is interesting, but I don't think it is universal. Specifically I don't think it matches me. I find social contact even with e.g. my girlfriend or my son tiring. Even though e.g. my girlfriend is amazed at just how relaxed I seem to be. And in a sense it's true - around people I am comfortable with nothing will faze me. I can sit in a meditative state with total chaos around me with ease. But whenever I participate in any way, it drains me. Doesn't mean I don't like spending time with people, but if I participate in conversation or engage in any kind of way, no matter how enjoyable or chilled out the situation might be, I need alone time afterwards. Lockdown was so relaxing for me. Though it seems to be predominantly in-person contact (though I don't really know where e.g. video calls fall), sometimes even online interactions drain me and I just totally shut down and ignore the outside world to relax. As an interesting addendum: To me the type of social events that are most draining are opposite of yours. When I can set myself apart (such as holding speeches, even in front of huge crowds) or by "drowning in the crowd" like in large events where I can just ignore everyone most of the time, I'm fine. It's like being alone. I held the commencement speech for my university in front of thousands of students, faculty and a TV crew. Piece of cake. Small groups where people expect interactions, on the other hand, even if they are people I'd totally trust and where I can let my guard down totally, are brutal on my energy levels and far more stressful as well.