11 ms·

I have the thermostat in my apartment turned to about 19°, which is a bit lower than is usual here, to save money and the environment, and I'm still perfectly c

by kmm 5y ago

I have the thermostat in my apartment turned to about 19°, which is a bit lower than is usual here, to save money and the environment, and I'm still perfectly comfortable at that temperature. At some point, after I had rented it for a bit, I had to be gone for a few weeks, so I turned the thermostat and all the radiators completely off. The outside temperature was about 5-10°, which I what expected to find on my return. Yet when I came back, it was still at 19.5°. I have only rarely had to turn on my radiators since, even during Winter. Of course, the place can't be that well-isolated, and I regularly open the windows to let in fresh air, so that energy must be coming from somewhere. I assume it's heat leaking in from my upstairs, downstairs, left and right neighbors. They probably have their thermostats set to a balmy 21-22°, and the heat flux through my walls must be enough to keep the place at around 19°. I often wonder whether this constitutes stealing. It's not exactly parallel to the light of my neighbor's lamp, since due to the temperature differential their thermostats are working harder than they would be if I heated my place to 22°. In effect, they're all paying for the energy to keep my place at 19°, and I'm presumably paying only a pittance for heat. But on the other hand, I have no need for a higher temperature, nor do I want to pay or incur the environmental cost for unnecessary heating. Nineteen degrees seems like a perfectly reasonable temperature to me, and it's their choice (again, I'm assuming, but where else can it come from?) to keep it a few degrees hotter.

taneq 5y ago
My first apartment was surrounded on four of six sides like that and I never used heat in winter. It never got cold enough to need more than a light jumper. I'd be curious to know what difference it made to your power bills turning your heating off, since if it's sitting above 19° then it was probably just running the fan anyway. Thinking about it, you probably get all sorts of interesting feedback loops going on between the thermostats of neighbouring apartments.
db48x 5y ago
Definitely always aim to rent the apartment on the ground floor, in the middle of the building.
- darkwater 5y ago
  Why ground floor? Heat flows to the top, it's better to have someone behind who's heating their own apartment.
  - 7steps2much 5y ago
    On the ground your floor is either a basement or well, the ground. Whereas on higher floors your floor is another apartment and your roof (might) be the actual buildings roof. Heat leaves far more easily if there is air on the other side of the wall and(!) you have the benefit of ground isolating you on the bottom floor
    - darkwater 5y ago
      I was clearly implying that there has to be another apartment on top of yours (so, a 3 floors building). If you compare ground floor vs top floor, then ground floor wins hands on, I agree.
  - vgeek 5y ago
    The unit above acts as an insulator, so you have a heated/cooled unit above you versus outside temperature. The ground itself is a fairly good insulator, too.
  - db48x 5y ago
    All of those reasons _plus_ there are no stairs!
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Hot air rises; heat doesn't. Heat moves from warm to cold. You would way rather have a heated space above your ceiling than a non-heated space. In many buildings, the mechanical systems are in the basement and whatever is carrying the heat runs up through the lower units. My old apartment in Cambridge was first floor and the 2nd and 3rd floor ducts were inside my living space and closets. On mild days, I could leave my heat entirely off and just the radiation and small leakage from their ducts was enough to keep my place comfortable. (The furnaces were all atmospheric gas burners with plenty of residual heat leaking into the basement as a result, making it an inadvertently heated space beneath as well.)
xico 5y ago
Meanwhile some would argue that your neighbors are contributing to the deterioration of the environment for their own comfort, thus stealing portions of your health or future, for either you or your descendants. Maybe that cancels out the stealing.
- _dain_ 5y ago
  that's a pathway to madness and moral blackmail. i will never feel guilty about heating my home, and to hell with anyone who tries.
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    It’s as petty as thinking about “stolen” heat.
  - megablast 5y ago
    I bet you don’t feel guilty about driving everywhere too??
    - _dain_ 5y ago
      i don't own a motor car
- Spooky23 5y ago
  The impact of every character you posted, compounded over the years will have killed 4 kittens by 2075.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    What a weird thing to make up.
aflag 5y ago
I think that's a stronger example than the one proposed. But the outcome is similar. The neighbors are forcibly giving you heat. It just happens that you are ok with 19C. However, if you wanted your home to be cooler than that, to be the same as outside, you'd then have to pay for an AC to do that because your neighbors are making the environment around them hotter. I think stealing is not only taking something that's not yours, but taking something that's not yours without permission. As soon as they start irradiating the heat all over the place, they are effectively giving everyone permission to use it. It's not like you can somehow easily stop or give them back the heat. If they didn't want the heat to escape, then they need to invest in better insulation.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  My first apartment in Boston was like this. I was on the top floor and I’d have to leave the windows open all winter because it was so unbearably hot from the heat being cranked up in the units below me. I remember nearly sweating to death during a major snowstorm because I had closed the windows to keep the snow out but keeping the snow out meant I kept all of the hot air in!
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    When you're on the top floor, it's often a catch-22 to do this. Heating for the building can be controlled by a system that takes as input the temperatures from sensors in apartments on the top and bottom floors. So when you open the windows to lower the temperature in your apartment, the system will react by cranking up the heat for the building.
  - db48x 5y ago
    What you need is some kind of mesh covering for the window that lets air through but not larger particles such as ice crystals or bugs.
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      Like window screens...?
Ensorceled 5y ago
> I often wonder whether this constitutes stealing. Yes, of course it does. Their heating bills are all up because they have an exposed, and probably poorly insulated, constantly cooling wall they have to heat up. It might not be illegal. It is also pretty shitty to the neighborhood. [edit] this struck a nerve, immoral behaviour getting called out really annoys people.
- nnf 5y ago
  What if the renter moved out and the electricity to that apartment unit was shut off? The result would still be the same (a 19° unit) but nobody would be benefiting from the neighbors’ heat, so it couldn’t be considered stealing.
  - drtz 5y ago
    Even more analogous, what if the resident wants the same temperature as his neighbors, but just because of the position of his unit relative to the others it takes less energy to heat. Is that immoral?
- bmitc 5y ago
  No way it’s stealing. In fact, they are receiving something thing they didn’t ask for. It just so happens that they’re okay with the temperature. What if they wanted it cooler? The construction of the building and their neighbor’s energy usage are not their problems to fix or be blamed for.
- ratww 5y ago
  It's not that it struck a nerve, it's just that you're wrong. If the neighbours want absolutely no heat escaping, they need better insulation. Similarly, if grandparent wants less than 19°C, he needs better insulation himself, or he needs an air conditioner. Everyone stands to lose in this situation, but GP just happened to found a sensible balance that works for him and saves him money. And I would be pissed too, but I can't blame them. The issue here is clearly lack of insulation.
jareklupinski 5y ago
it just sounds like you found the most hospitable climate for yourself, you don't have to feel bad for being a clever biological organism that is more efficient than your neighbors :) we're all trying to do the same! it's arguably evolution?
avar 5y ago
Your neighbours are "stealing" from you, even if you run with that idea. They're not having to insulate your shared walls as much as their outside facing ones.
jaclaz 5y ago
JFYI, there are largish condo's here (Italy) with central heating that were recently "converted" to new technology. Basically on each radiator there is an electronic regulating valve (commanded by a thermostat) that logs the usage and that can be interrogated via radio frequency, a managing firm them calculates how much each apartment has to pay for heating. Set aside the practical folly the system is from a maintenance viewpoint (not working valves, dead batteries, mis-readings and what not), after the first winter the main issues came out. Till then people paid based on the area of each apartment, suddenly came out huge differences between - say - a central/south/southwest one and an outer/north/northeast one, in some cases the latter costed twice or nearly twice the former.
- Izkata 5y ago
  Yeah, that's what I was wondering about GP - I have some multisensors hooked up to HomeAssistant so I can see what happens over time, and as long as the sun is out the sun can warm mine up like 3-5 degrees between sunrise and noon, even in the winter. It doesn't all dissipate until the middle of the night.
  - jaclaz 5y ago
    Traditionally (and when/where possible) the way a house is (should be in theory) oriented is/was definite (at least here in central Italy), places where you live during the day (kitchen/dining room/sitting room) should face roughly south, bedrooms should face roughly north. This way you have most of the light (and warmness) of the sun during the day, while bedrooms are colder (but you have blankets) in winter and fresher in summer.
Ginden 5y ago
Certain places use more complex methods of counting heat used, exactly because you leaving apartment unheated incured additional cost on neighbours. Heat is transfered from their apartments, so they must pay more for your comfort.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  But that doesn’t seem fair either? GP is perfectly happy at a cooler temperature. If GP actually preferred an even colder temperature (perhaps for sleeping or exercising) and had to turn on the air conditioner, can they bill their neighbors? GP must pay more for their neighbor’s comfort.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Correct, it's potential that they are paying for GP's discomfort at times
  - gpvos 5y ago
    But then the neighbours would both pay them and turn up their own heating to keep their own house at their own favourite temperature, since the airco is working against that.
davideous 5y ago
The heat flux through the walls depends on the temperature of your apartment and your neighbor's apartments -- not on if your thermostat is on or off. So even if you leave your thermostat on at 19° you still benefit. And you have no obligation to turn your thermostat up.
- FPGAhacker 5y ago
  Do you suppose that if someone’s hot apartment heats a neighbor, that likewise someone’s cold apartment cools a neighbor? The neighbors have to spend more energy to maintain the temperature of their apartment because of this person not heating their own. I could see an argument for theft.
  - viceroyalbean 5y ago
    The argument for theft would have to assume that there is a "right" temperature to set. Personally I would be sweating in a t-shirt if I had the heating set to 22C, which would be the only way to prevent the cooling in the example. As others have pointed out, it's a happy coincidence that the equilibrium is at a point that GP is happy with. If it were higher they would have to actively cool their apartment which can be seen as a cost, sort of comparable to dumping trash on someone's property forcing them to pay to deal with it.
ball_of_lint 5y ago
If one of your neighbors left for a long vacation and turned their thermostat off, causing your apartment to cool down significantly, would you turn your thermostat back on? IMO, the fair thing to do is to set your thermostat to a temperature that you're satisfied with and leave it there. If your neighbors want their apartments at 22 degrees that's their business and your benefit. You don't have any codified responsibility here exactly, but it's still best to follow the golden rule.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  Sounds like GP still has their thermostat turned to 19 - but now they are aware that it almost never results in the heater turning on.
AnthonyMouse 5y ago
This kind of reminds me of the cryptocurrency climate change hack. Mining cryptocurrency uses electricity and some electricity currently comes from fossil fuels, so that's bad. In many places the cost of direct heating from fossil fuels (fuel oil or natural gas) is less than using electric heaters, but electric heat is typically lower carbon because grid power is a mix of fossil and non-fossil fuels instead of 100% fossil fuels, and this gets better the more of the grid goes to non-fossil fuels. So switching to electric heat can lower your carbon footprint, but might cost more. Cryptocurrency mining equipment is effectively an electric space heater that generates revenue. So if you heat your home in the winter using cryptocurrency mining equipment, you turn a profit while lowering your carbon footprint. Or it's carbon neutral free money to anyone already using electric heat.
- chrischen 5y ago
  I think you have to factor in transmission and conversion loss from converting carbon based fuels to electricity and powerline loss.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    Then on the other side you also have the lower efficiency of small home furnaces compared to large combined cycle commercial power generation. It's not guaranteed to be less -- if your power grid is 100% coal and you're heating with natural gas, it very well might not be -- but in many/most cases it is. The most obvious winning case being where your power grid is predominantly nuclear, hydro and renewables. If you're in the US they have the breakdown by state here: https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-generation-fuel-shares https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-g... Washington, Oregon and Vermont are predominantly hydro. Illinois, New Hampshire and South Carolina are majority nuclear. South Dakota is, surprisingly, >80% hydro and wind. Wyoming is, unsurprisingly, 80% coal.
    - pflanze 5y ago
      Electricity generation efficiency from coal is only 25-50% according to [1]. Heating efficiency of modern home furnaces is typically way above 90% according to [2]. Power transmission efficiency across the power grid is around 94% according to [3]. I'm treating natural gas the same as coal since, while the direct emissions are about half the CO2 per thermal unit produced, its production is much more problematic (esp. emission of methane) [4]. I've taken these numbers and the numbers given at the link you provided and calculated that probably (lacking numbers for the mean efficiency of coal->electricity production) only 10-15 states out of 51 satisfy your claim that heating with electricity (via resistive heating) is making lower use of coal than burning coal locally (as mentioned above I'm treating natural gas as an equivalent). I've put my spreadsheet here [5]. Note that the situation would be much different when using heat pumps instead of resistive heaters. (Aside of the coin generation, cryptocurrency mining rigs are resistive heaters.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal [2] https://www.pickhvac.com/gas-furnace/most-energy-efficient/ https://www.pickhvac.com/gas-furnace/most-energy-efficient/ [3] https://www.ceicdata.com/en/united-states/energy-production-and-consumption/us-electric-power-transmission-and-distribution-losses--of-output https://www.ceicdata.com/en/united-states/energy-production-... [4] https://group.met.com/fyouture/natural-gas-vs-coal/66 https://group.met.com/fyouture/natural-gas-vs-coal/66 [5] http://christianjaeger.ch/electricity_production_in_the_US.ods http://christianjaeger.ch/electricity_production_in_the_US.o...
theshrike79 5y ago
Our two previous apartments had the same issue. Even when it was -30 outside, our apartment was a warm 22-24 degrees with the radiators completely off. Our current one is really refreshing, because we can actually get the heat under 20 degrees by turning off the radiators. Took about a month to get used to the lower indoor temp, but we feel and sleep much better now.
em-bee 5y ago
we did that when i was a kid. we had central heating where each radiator has some kind of device with material that evaporates depending on how hot the radiator is. the heating bill was based on how much evaporated. we didn't want to save money or the environment, we just liked it a bit cooler. that was decades ago and there was no temperature control on the thermostat. the only way to get to our desired temperature was to turn the heating off. the result was that measurement devices didn't evaporate at all, and the company had us investigated for cheating. (apparently some people tried to prevent the evaporation by wrapping them in some isolating material.)
fy20 5y ago
I was going to post exactly this :-) I live in a 5 year old apartment, and there are two units above and below exactly the same layout. We don't turn on our heating until it gets well below freezing as the heat from other apartments is more than enough. This season the coldest temperature I've seen is 20.5c - when it was 0c outside and cloudy for one week. For vertical neighbours you could say they could have insulated the ceilings (when we bought the apartment new it was unfinished, just concrete inside), so it was their choice to allow heat to escape. But we have underfloor heating, so it's not just neighbours vertically but also horizontally, as quite a lot of heat transfers via the concrete floors too (this is the only way the common areas of the building are heated) - you can't insulate that. In the summer we have AC on, and a lot of our neighbours don't have it, so I figure we benefiting them at that time by taking away some of their heat. On a related note, if you have underground parking I'd also suggest to choose the lowest floor if you have a choice (as long as there is no flood risk). We are on -2 and when it's 35c outside our car is parked in a cool 18c, and when it's -25c it is 8c.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
In slovenia, we have very complicated formulas to determine the cost of heating in multi-apartment buildings, and the costs are calculated by the usage of your radiators (we have energy counters for heat in every apartment), and you add/subtract the some reduced values of your neighbors meter (the ones you share your walls with), and the things are averaged out a bit. Basically, even if you turn all the radiators off in your apartment, you still pay around 50% or even more (if you share most of the walls) of the average heating bill.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  If the temperature is too high for you and you used an air conditioner to lower it, then wouldn't you be paying twice: for the AC and the heating? Do your neighbors have to pay extra when they don't run their AC in Summer?
  - saalweachter 5y ago
    If you're running your AC, aren't you also raising your neighbor's heating bills?
    - hammock 5y ago
      If the A/C exhaust was set up to vent into your neighbors, you could actually be lowering their heating bill :)
      - photojosh 5y ago
        This comment is the winner for me. Co-generation for the win! I so wish combined-cycle gas turbines could be miniaturised enough to run one at home and still have the same efficiencies.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    We use heat, when it's cold outside (i think it has to bee three days below 12°C at 9pm - not sure), so if it's too hot for you, you just open a window. AC usage is not regulated.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
I do the same thing. I practically turn my heat off in the winter and all my neighbors warm me.
megablast 5y ago
Did you notice a change in bills?
globular-toast 5y ago
I realised this when I lived in a middle flat. I had the heating set to around 20 degrees I think, but it barely ever kicked on. The downside was in the summer it got too hot and I couldn't cool it well at all. Wasn't great for sleeping.
adventured 5y ago
> I often wonder whether this constitutes stealing. No, definitely not. You're not responsible for the insulation context of the apartment you're renting (as it pertains to eg such things as shared or external walls). You're not responsible for the apartment design. You're not responsible for the materials it is constructed of, nor how thick its walls are. You would have to do something dramatic to the construction of the apartment to alter the context you're describing, and that's likely not in your legal purview to do, as such it's not your responsibility morally or legally.
rebuilder 5y ago
All I can think here is : so you have individual heat billing in an apartment building? IOW separate electric or gas heaters in each apartment? I’m used to central heating, basically a water-circulating radiator setup, where the overall water temperature is set by the condo management and thermostats regulate the temperatures in each apartment, within the limits of the total heat provided. No way to monitor what people have their thermostats set to. And, of course, district heating is a big thing. What I’m trying to say here is, it sounds like there are bigger problems with the heating in your apartment building than whether or not you’re stealing heat from your neighbours.
- detaro 5y ago
  > IOW separate electric or gas heaters in each apartment? No, it does not mean that. As other comments already mentioned, local energy counters on the radiators are a thing.
jeffwass 5y ago
Here’s another one. I know someone who’s upstairs neighbours radiator pipes ran through their apartment. The pipes are scalding hot when the neighbour’s heating is on. What is the legality of slapping a big honking heat sink on the pipes? He never did it but we discussed it, from both technical and ethical points of view.
- ThrustVectoring 5y ago
  It would likely be considered either trespass to chattel or to land.
pmontra 5y ago
Maybe they have their thermostats set at 20 and are working more to keep those 20 whilst heating your apartment too. Even if they set their thermostats at 25 they would be working extra to compensate. Is there a mandatory maximum temperature in your country?

by kmm 5y ago

taneq 5y ago

My first apartment was surrounded on four of six sides like that and I never used heat in winter. It never got cold enough to need more than a light jumper. I'd be curious to know what difference it made to your power bills turning your heating off, since if it's sitting above 19° then it was probably just running the fan anyway. Thinking about it, you probably get all sorts of interesting feedback loops going on between the thermostats of neighbouring apartments.

db48x 5y ago

Definitely always aim to rent the apartment on the ground floor, in the middle of the building.

darkwater 5y ago
Why ground floor? Heat flows to the top, it's better to have someone behind who's heating their own apartment.
- 7steps2much 5y ago
  On the ground your floor is either a basement or well, the ground. Whereas on higher floors your floor is another apartment and your roof (might) be the actual buildings roof. Heat leaves far more easily if there is air on the other side of the wall and(!) you have the benefit of ground isolating you on the bottom floor
  - darkwater 5y ago
    I was clearly implying that there has to be another apartment on top of yours (so, a 3 floors building). If you compare ground floor vs top floor, then ground floor wins hands on, I agree.
- vgeek 5y ago
  The unit above acts as an insulator, so you have a heated/cooled unit above you versus outside temperature. The ground itself is a fairly good insulator, too.
- db48x 5y ago
  All of those reasons _plus_ there are no stairs!
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Hot air rises; heat doesn't. Heat moves from warm to cold. You would way rather have a heated space above your ceiling than a non-heated space. In many buildings, the mechanical systems are in the basement and whatever is carrying the heat runs up through the lower units. My old apartment in Cambridge was first floor and the 2nd and 3rd floor ducts were inside my living space and closets. On mild days, I could leave my heat entirely off and just the radiation and small leakage from their ducts was enough to keep my place comfortable. (The furnaces were all atmospheric gas burners with plenty of residual heat leaking into the basement as a result, making it an inadvertently heated space beneath as well.)

xico 5y ago

Meanwhile some would argue that your neighbors are contributing to the deterioration of the environment for their own comfort, thus stealing portions of your health or future, for either you or your descendants. Maybe that cancels out the stealing.

_dain_ 5y ago
that's a pathway to madness and moral blackmail. i will never feel guilty about heating my home, and to hell with anyone who tries.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  It’s as petty as thinking about “stolen” heat.
- megablast 5y ago
  I bet you don’t feel guilty about driving everywhere too??
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    i don't own a motor car
Spooky23 5y ago
The impact of every character you posted, compounded over the years will have killed 4 kittens by 2075.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  What a weird thing to make up.

aflag 5y ago

I think that's a stronger example than the one proposed. But the outcome is similar. The neighbors are forcibly giving you heat. It just happens that you are ok with 19C. However, if you wanted your home to be cooler than that, to be the same as outside, you'd then have to pay for an AC to do that because your neighbors are making the environment around them hotter. I think stealing is not only taking something that's not yours, but taking something that's not yours without permission. As soon as they start irradiating the heat all over the place, they are effectively giving everyone permission to use it. It's not like you can somehow easily stop or give them back the heat. If they didn't want the heat to escape, then they need to invest in better insulation.

elliekelly 5y ago
My first apartment in Boston was like this. I was on the top floor and I’d have to leave the windows open all winter because it was so unbearably hot from the heat being cranked up in the units below me. I remember nearly sweating to death during a major snowstorm because I had closed the windows to keep the snow out but keeping the snow out meant I kept all of the hot air in!
- pessimizer 5y ago
  When you're on the top floor, it's often a catch-22 to do this. Heating for the building can be controlled by a system that takes as input the temperatures from sensors in apartments on the top and bottom floors. So when you open the windows to lower the temperature in your apartment, the system will react by cranking up the heat for the building.
- db48x 5y ago
  What you need is some kind of mesh covering for the window that lets air through but not larger particles such as ice crystals or bugs.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Like window screens...?

Ensorceled 5y ago

> I often wonder whether this constitutes stealing. Yes, of course it does. Their heating bills are all up because they have an exposed, and probably poorly insulated, constantly cooling wall they have to heat up. It might not be illegal. It is also pretty shitty to the neighborhood. [edit] this struck a nerve, immoral behaviour getting called out really annoys people.

nnf 5y ago
What if the renter moved out and the electricity to that apartment unit was shut off? The result would still be the same (a 19° unit) but nobody would be benefiting from the neighbors’ heat, so it couldn’t be considered stealing.
- drtz 5y ago
  Even more analogous, what if the resident wants the same temperature as his neighbors, but just because of the position of his unit relative to the others it takes less energy to heat. Is that immoral?
bmitc 5y ago
No way it’s stealing. In fact, they are receiving something thing they didn’t ask for. It just so happens that they’re okay with the temperature. What if they wanted it cooler? The construction of the building and their neighbor’s energy usage are not their problems to fix or be blamed for.
ratww 5y ago
It's not that it struck a nerve, it's just that you're wrong. If the neighbours want absolutely no heat escaping, they need better insulation. Similarly, if grandparent wants less than 19°C, he needs better insulation himself, or he needs an air conditioner. Everyone stands to lose in this situation, but GP just happened to found a sensible balance that works for him and saves him money. And I would be pissed too, but I can't blame them. The issue here is clearly lack of insulation.

jareklupinski 5y ago

it just sounds like you found the most hospitable climate for yourself, you don't have to feel bad for being a clever biological organism that is more efficient than your neighbors :) we're all trying to do the same! it's arguably evolution?

avar 5y ago

Your neighbours are "stealing" from you, even if you run with that idea. They're not having to insulate your shared walls as much as their outside facing ones.

jaclaz 5y ago

JFYI, there are largish condo's here (Italy) with central heating that were recently "converted" to new technology. Basically on each radiator there is an electronic regulating valve (commanded by a thermostat) that logs the usage and that can be interrogated via radio frequency, a managing firm them calculates how much each apartment has to pay for heating. Set aside the practical folly the system is from a maintenance viewpoint (not working valves, dead batteries, mis-readings and what not), after the first winter the main issues came out. Till then people paid based on the area of each apartment, suddenly came out huge differences between - say - a central/south/southwest one and an outer/north/northeast one, in some cases the latter costed twice or nearly twice the former.

Izkata 5y ago
Yeah, that's what I was wondering about GP - I have some multisensors hooked up to HomeAssistant so I can see what happens over time, and as long as the sun is out the sun can warm mine up like 3-5 degrees between sunrise and noon, even in the winter. It doesn't all dissipate until the middle of the night.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  Traditionally (and when/where possible) the way a house is (should be in theory) oriented is/was definite (at least here in central Italy), places where you live during the day (kitchen/dining room/sitting room) should face roughly south, bedrooms should face roughly north. This way you have most of the light (and warmness) of the sun during the day, while bedrooms are colder (but you have blankets) in winter and fresher in summer.

Ginden 5y ago

Certain places use more complex methods of counting heat used, exactly because you leaving apartment unheated incured additional cost on neighbours. Heat is transfered from their apartments, so they must pay more for your comfort.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
But that doesn’t seem fair either? GP is perfectly happy at a cooler temperature. If GP actually preferred an even colder temperature (perhaps for sleeping or exercising) and had to turn on the air conditioner, can they bill their neighbors? GP must pay more for their neighbor’s comfort.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Correct, it's potential that they are paying for GP's discomfort at times
- gpvos 5y ago
  But then the neighbours would both pay them and turn up their own heating to keep their own house at their own favourite temperature, since the airco is working against that.

davideous 5y ago

The heat flux through the walls depends on the temperature of your apartment and your neighbor's apartments -- not on if your thermostat is on or off. So even if you leave your thermostat on at 19° you still benefit. And you have no obligation to turn your thermostat up.

FPGAhacker 5y ago
Do you suppose that if someone’s hot apartment heats a neighbor, that likewise someone’s cold apartment cools a neighbor? The neighbors have to spend more energy to maintain the temperature of their apartment because of this person not heating their own. I could see an argument for theft.
- viceroyalbean 5y ago
  The argument for theft would have to assume that there is a "right" temperature to set. Personally I would be sweating in a t-shirt if I had the heating set to 22C, which would be the only way to prevent the cooling in the example. As others have pointed out, it's a happy coincidence that the equilibrium is at a point that GP is happy with. If it were higher they would have to actively cool their apartment which can be seen as a cost, sort of comparable to dumping trash on someone's property forcing them to pay to deal with it.

ball_of_lint 5y ago

If one of your neighbors left for a long vacation and turned their thermostat off, causing your apartment to cool down significantly, would you turn your thermostat back on? IMO, the fair thing to do is to set your thermostat to a temperature that you're satisfied with and leave it there. If your neighbors want their apartments at 22 degrees that's their business and your benefit. You don't have any codified responsibility here exactly, but it's still best to follow the golden rule.

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
Sounds like GP still has their thermostat turned to 19 - but now they are aware that it almost never results in the heater turning on.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

This kind of reminds me of the cryptocurrency climate change hack. Mining cryptocurrency uses electricity and some electricity currently comes from fossil fuels, so that's bad. In many places the cost of direct heating from fossil fuels (fuel oil or natural gas) is less than using electric heaters, but electric heat is typically lower carbon because grid power is a mix of fossil and non-fossil fuels instead of 100% fossil fuels, and this gets better the more of the grid goes to non-fossil fuels. So switching to electric heat can lower your carbon footprint, but might cost more. Cryptocurrency mining equipment is effectively an electric space heater that generates revenue. So if you heat your home in the winter using cryptocurrency mining equipment, you turn a profit while lowering your carbon footprint. Or it's carbon neutral free money to anyone already using electric heat.

chrischen 5y ago
I think you have to factor in transmission and conversion loss from converting carbon based fuels to electricity and powerline loss.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  Then on the other side you also have the lower efficiency of small home furnaces compared to large combined cycle commercial power generation. It's not guaranteed to be less -- if your power grid is 100% coal and you're heating with natural gas, it very well might not be -- but in many/most cases it is. The most obvious winning case being where your power grid is predominantly nuclear, hydro and renewables. If you're in the US they have the breakdown by state here: https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-generation-fuel-shares https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-g... Washington, Oregon and Vermont are predominantly hydro. Illinois, New Hampshire and South Carolina are majority nuclear. South Dakota is, surprisingly, >80% hydro and wind. Wyoming is, unsurprisingly, 80% coal.
  - pflanze 5y ago
    Electricity generation efficiency from coal is only 25-50% according to [1]. Heating efficiency of modern home furnaces is typically way above 90% according to [2]. Power transmission efficiency across the power grid is around 94% according to [3]. I'm treating natural gas the same as coal since, while the direct emissions are about half the CO2 per thermal unit produced, its production is much more problematic (esp. emission of methane) [4]. I've taken these numbers and the numbers given at the link you provided and calculated that probably (lacking numbers for the mean efficiency of coal->electricity production) only 10-15 states out of 51 satisfy your claim that heating with electricity (via resistive heating) is making lower use of coal than burning coal locally (as mentioned above I'm treating natural gas as an equivalent). I've put my spreadsheet here [5]. Note that the situation would be much different when using heat pumps instead of resistive heaters. (Aside of the coin generation, cryptocurrency mining rigs are resistive heaters.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal [2] https://www.pickhvac.com/gas-furnace/most-energy-efficient/ https://www.pickhvac.com/gas-furnace/most-energy-efficient/ [3] https://www.ceicdata.com/en/united-states/energy-production-and-consumption/us-electric-power-transmission-and-distribution-losses--of-output https://www.ceicdata.com/en/united-states/energy-production-... [4] https://group.met.com/fyouture/natural-gas-vs-coal/66 https://group.met.com/fyouture/natural-gas-vs-coal/66 [5] http://christianjaeger.ch/electricity_production_in_the_US.ods http://christianjaeger.ch/electricity_production_in_the_US.o...

theshrike79 5y ago

Our two previous apartments had the same issue. Even when it was -30 outside, our apartment was a warm 22-24 degrees with the radiators completely off. Our current one is really refreshing, because we can actually get the heat under 20 degrees by turning off the radiators. Took about a month to get used to the lower indoor temp, but we feel and sleep much better now.

em-bee 5y ago

we did that when i was a kid. we had central heating where each radiator has some kind of device with material that evaporates depending on how hot the radiator is. the heating bill was based on how much evaporated. we didn't want to save money or the environment, we just liked it a bit cooler. that was decades ago and there was no temperature control on the thermostat. the only way to get to our desired temperature was to turn the heating off. the result was that measurement devices didn't evaporate at all, and the company had us investigated for cheating. (apparently some people tried to prevent the evaporation by wrapping them in some isolating material.)

fy20 5y ago

I was going to post exactly this :-) I live in a 5 year old apartment, and there are two units above and below exactly the same layout. We don't turn on our heating until it gets well below freezing as the heat from other apartments is more than enough. This season the coldest temperature I've seen is 20.5c - when it was 0c outside and cloudy for one week. For vertical neighbours you could say they could have insulated the ceilings (when we bought the apartment new it was unfinished, just concrete inside), so it was their choice to allow heat to escape. But we have underfloor heating, so it's not just neighbours vertically but also horizontally, as quite a lot of heat transfers via the concrete floors too (this is the only way the common areas of the building are heated) - you can't insulate that. In the summer we have AC on, and a lot of our neighbours don't have it, so I figure we benefiting them at that time by taking away some of their heat. On a related note, if you have underground parking I'd also suggest to choose the lowest floor if you have a choice (as long as there is no flood risk). We are on -2 and when it's 35c outside our car is parked in a cool 18c, and when it's -25c it is 8c.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

In slovenia, we have very complicated formulas to determine the cost of heating in multi-apartment buildings, and the costs are calculated by the usage of your radiators (we have energy counters for heat in every apartment), and you add/subtract the some reduced values of your neighbors meter (the ones you share your walls with), and the things are averaged out a bit. Basically, even if you turn all the radiators off in your apartment, you still pay around 50% or even more (if you share most of the walls) of the average heating bill.

Aerroon 5y ago
If the temperature is too high for you and you used an air conditioner to lower it, then wouldn't you be paying twice: for the AC and the heating? Do your neighbors have to pay extra when they don't run their AC in Summer?
- saalweachter 5y ago
  If you're running your AC, aren't you also raising your neighbor's heating bills?
  - hammock 5y ago
    If the A/C exhaust was set up to vent into your neighbors, you could actually be lowering their heating bill :)
    - photojosh 5y ago
      This comment is the winner for me. Co-generation for the win! I so wish combined-cycle gas turbines could be miniaturised enough to run one at home and still have the same efficiencies.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  We use heat, when it's cold outside (i think it has to bee three days below 12°C at 9pm - not sure), so if it's too hot for you, you just open a window. AC usage is not regulated.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

I do the same thing. I practically turn my heat off in the winter and all my neighbors warm me.

megablast 5y ago

Did you notice a change in bills?

globular-toast 5y ago

I realised this when I lived in a middle flat. I had the heating set to around 20 degrees I think, but it barely ever kicked on. The downside was in the summer it got too hot and I couldn't cool it well at all. Wasn't great for sleeping.

adventured 5y ago

> I often wonder whether this constitutes stealing. No, definitely not. You're not responsible for the insulation context of the apartment you're renting (as it pertains to eg such things as shared or external walls). You're not responsible for the apartment design. You're not responsible for the materials it is constructed of, nor how thick its walls are. You would have to do something dramatic to the construction of the apartment to alter the context you're describing, and that's likely not in your legal purview to do, as such it's not your responsibility morally or legally.

rebuilder 5y ago

All I can think here is : so you have individual heat billing in an apartment building? IOW separate electric or gas heaters in each apartment? I’m used to central heating, basically a water-circulating radiator setup, where the overall water temperature is set by the condo management and thermostats regulate the temperatures in each apartment, within the limits of the total heat provided. No way to monitor what people have their thermostats set to. And, of course, district heating is a big thing. What I’m trying to say here is, it sounds like there are bigger problems with the heating in your apartment building than whether or not you’re stealing heat from your neighbours.

detaro 5y ago
> IOW separate electric or gas heaters in each apartment? No, it does not mean that. As other comments already mentioned, local energy counters on the radiators are a thing.

jeffwass 5y ago

Here’s another one. I know someone who’s upstairs neighbours radiator pipes ran through their apartment. The pipes are scalding hot when the neighbour’s heating is on. What is the legality of slapping a big honking heat sink on the pipes? He never did it but we discussed it, from both technical and ethical points of view.

ThrustVectoring 5y ago
It would likely be considered either trespass to chattel or to land.

pmontra 5y ago

Maybe they have their thermostats set at 20 and are working more to keep those 20 whilst heating your apartment too. Even if they set their thermostats at 25 they would be working extra to compensate. Is there a mandatory maximum temperature in your country?