15 ms·

Microsoft Edge’s new ‘Buy now, pay later’ feature is the definition of bloatware

560 points by JCWasmx86 5y ago

andy0x2a 5y ago
Microsoft needs to do everything they can to promote Edge in order to capture market share. Edge and Microsoft have nowhere near the browser share needed to pull this behavior. And this differentiator is a detractor for me rather than a useful feature. But then again this wasn't built for the end-users, this is clearly revenue base. Just another reason to not use Edge.
- lozenge 5y ago
  They are. You can't use many features of Windows any more without Edge opening - default browser or not.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    They're riding the line of unfairly non-competitive behaviour again. They haven't learnt. Seems they just got better as an organisation at hiding their malignancy behind a facade of propriety.
    - 8note 5y ago
      I don't think the market is in a similar place anymore. You can avoid edge by using your iphone, and you can avoid safari by using your laptop
      - donmcronald 5y ago
        It might be different legally, but it's the same scummy behavior that I'd like to see punished. Maybe it's time for updated laws so having two or three global competitors isn't considered ok.
- merrywhether 5y ago
  But how much money can they possibly be making from a deal like this? It surely is a blip on MS’ radar. That’s what so confusing about dumb moves like this while Edge is still trying to gain market share.
- grishka 5y ago
  > this is clearly revenue base As if Windows itself is free. I mean it technically is, you can use it just fine without activation, but isn't the cost of these licenses supposed to pay for everything?
  - mastax 5y ago
    Doesn't matter how profitable you are, you need to make more next quarter.
    - grishka 5y ago
      It feels like there has to be some limit to this kind of "growth".
- siproprio 5y ago
  They don't need any promotion. They'll just achieve domination through bundling edge with windows and making it impossible to switch. I used to have a more positive version of microsoft up until the point they started flexing their evil muscles to push low quality products into technically unsophisticated users. Edge+Bing+Office+Windows feeding on each other is the greatest example right now. Gladly we acted as quickly as possible where I worked to leave github when they announced the msft acquisition, so at least my part is covered.
froggertoaster 5y ago
I'd rather endure Microsoft's bloated browser than ever, as the author suggests, use the browser owned by the morally and ethically bankrupt Mozilla.
- JCWasmx86 5y ago
  I think Microsoft did a lot more morally and ethically questionable things than Mozilla
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  I'm trying to put myself in the headspace of thinking Mozilla is more morally bankrupt than Microsoft but I'm really struggling with it. I suppose that some people believe this means Microsoft marketing has done a good job of rehabilitating their image over the last 10 years.
  - ZanyProgrammer 5y ago
    My guess is that there's a fair amount of politics behind such a statement. The kind of politics that has to do with SJWs, Eich, etc rather than any purely technical engineering decisions.
    - froggertoaster 5y ago
      You are quite perceptive. Yes, I find the ousting of Eich to be extremely distasteful. I haven't used a Mozilla product since. Can't speak on the SJW thing though, I have no "anti-SJW" feelings in general, esp. as it relates to Mozilla.
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    Mozilla is more morally bankrupt after taking Google money and letting the rise of Chrome going unchecked.
    - jfk13 5y ago
      Do you know some magic formula that would have enabled Mozilla to halt Chrome's "unchecked rise", given the behemoth that was pushing it? Despite having only a fraction of Google's resources, Mozilla continues to develop a competitive browser that provides a realistic alternative to Chrome. But it has never had access to the sort of channels and budget that Google used to promote its browser. (Of course Mozilla has made its share of mistakes. That's an inevitable part of attempting to do anything in this world. But "morally bankrupt" is not a description I recognise.)
tyleo 5y ago
The fact that Edge lags behind in desktop browser share is absurd. Looking at some charts online it appears to have 1/5 the usage of Chrome. That’s crazy. 80% of people are finding, installing, and using Chrome when a default is provided by the OS. On the other hand, the continuous own-goals like this leave me unsurprised. It’s like Microsoft wants to create a bad browser.
- notriddle 5y ago
  Or it's bundled by their PC, along with mcafee
- dgellow 5y ago
  20% of Chrome market share in ~1 year is not that bad IMHO. The new Edge is fairly recent.
  - tentacleuno 5y ago
    It looks good on paper but we both know a large amount of that is due to the dark patterns Microsoft employs in Windows to force people into using Edge[0][1]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29248460 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29248460 [1]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=Microsoft%20edge&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  It feels like a very "enterprisey" way of thinking. Where business deals and partnerships take precedence over user experience. I'm reminded of how the Java installer bundled (or still bundles?) an Ask toolbar for some reason.
  - heurisko 5y ago
    I was going to say the same thing. Truly bizarre that Oracle did this for so long. There was even a petition about it. https://www.change.org/p/oracle-corporation-stop-bundling-ask-toolbar-with-the-java-installer https://www.change.org/p/oracle-corporation-stop-bundling-as... It seemed such a counterproductive way to popularise a platform, as it immediately shredded their credibility, to seem the same level as that of some random company peddling malware.
e-clinton 5y ago
It’s just a piece of software they’re trying to monetize. Not sure Microsoft would make more money if usage were higher without doing things like this. I agree that it’s annoying, I use and like the browser.
aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
Lol, nice to see the MS of the 90s is still living strong behind the facade! inb4 "but they had pinky promised they've changed!"
vidanay 5y ago
I've been on the precipice of dumping Edge based on their constant re-enabling of the shopping popups, this might be the shove from behind that makes me jump.
bagacrap 5y ago
I don't use these services, but it's hard to see this as anything but a value judgement against "buy now pay later" schemes. If we set that aside, and (for the sake of argument) recognize this service as value-adding for many users, it does seem to be in line with the rest of that feature (the option hooks into Chromium's autofill/payments integration, so you'd usually see saved credit cards here). In fact I don't really see what the difference is between this and a credit card (where you do pay later, after all, hence "credit"). Is it that it shows even before you've signed up for Zip? So it's equivalent to asking if you want to sign up for a new credit card. I guess that's somewhat annoying. And being unable to disable it is also annoying, but equivalent to the exact same schemes I see baked into the merchant site all over the web. Does anyone know why Zip isn't already implemented as a credit card with delayed interest rates?
- 05 5y ago
  The service is one of the many predatory lending services that exploits the poor to further the class gap.. https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-08-11/sleek-new-credit-apps-target-a-young-generation-already-drowning-in-debt https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-08-11/sleek-new-...
  - htk 5y ago
    “To further the class gap” I personally don’t like the service but that’s quite the leap.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  The value judgement is because they target the people that can't afford it by making them think they can. This kind of scheme works fine if you're good at managing finances. You can plan ahead and set the money for the repayments aside. Though if you are good at it, I wouldn't see why you'd bother. Unfortunately, the kind of people that need this kind of scheme to buy stuff, are generally really bad at managing their finances. Otherwise they would have had buffer savings and could buy the thing just out of pocket. In the end it brings them only deeper into the debt hole. The only thing I'd take a loan (mortgage) for is a house, personally. Even my cars I paid all in cash (my most expensive one was a 2200 euro Volvo and it served me well for many years :) Personally I think ethically it's similar to the tobacco industry. They're exploiting a weakness of some people. Sure, they could resist it but some people are just not capable of doing so.
jetrink 5y ago
The company had over 100B in revenue last year. By adding this sleazy anti-feature, Microsoft is sacrificing its reputation and the quality of a high-profile product for probably a few million? That's a few thousandths of one percent of their total revenue. I don't understand it.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  The product manager behind this cares about having numbers to show their manager and isn't concerned about the potential reputational impact it might have on the company as a whole. Their manager likewise will be happy to report in turn to their manager that they've increased revenue by a large amount. It's peanuts to the company but could be a large increase for that particular product which is what the managers get rewarded on.
  - marcodiego 5y ago
    People use office because they need a feature or compatibility. Nobody chooses software based on reputation.
    - thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
      >> Nobody chooses software based on reputation. That's why Google has been so successful with Stadia.
      - jchw 5y ago
        Stadia isn’t even a good idea in the first place. Even if it is the best implementation of the idea, I still have no idea how it could ever make much sense. Other players in the space, like GeForce Now, don’t exactly look appealing either.
        sangnoir 5y ago
        I know it's a niche market, but Stadia is really convenient when traveling. All you need to pack is a controller.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
GekkePrutser 5y ago
<facepalm>... :X You had one job, Microsoft. To take Chrome and make it less privacy-invasive and more clean.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  You honestly think that was a goal? There's no way Microsoft had the goal of increasing user privacy with the engine switch
  - merrywhether 5y ago
    Their north star should be taking market share back from Google, not getting sidetracked with these piddling income schemes or anything else. It is worth so much more to them in the long run to break Chrome’s monopoly than anything in my short term. So if privacy is what people want, give it to them now and figure out monetization after you’ve beaten Chrome.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Have you really beaten Chrome if you're shipping another version of Chrome? :)
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Well they have been a bit more restricted in terms of privacy exploitation though their usual telemetry is there of course. MS just love telemetry :( So much they won't allow us a choice in the matter. But they have been pushing it a bit as a more privacy centric version of Chrome right? Tbh I never really saw the point in it especially after they moved to chromium. It's not much better at privacy than Chrome. It doesn't work any better because it's really just Chrome. It doesn't add any features Chrome doesn't have except for O365 users that get some integration there. So why are we supposed to love it? I thought it was more interesting when they made their own engine. I still find it a weird value proposition as a user. I use it for work but privately Firefox does me just fine.
- Gigamo 5y ago
moonchrome 5y ago
Yeah I don't have an anti Microsoft sentiment like the loud posters in these threads and I'm actually interested in chrome alternatives for cross platform browser (chrome battery usage is abysmal) but this shit makes me permanently ignore Edge. Bundling 3rs party commercial extensions in the browser - no thanks.
- asddubs 5y ago
  edge isn't a real chrome alternative from a technological standpoint. it's the same thing reskinned. the only browsers that are still a true alternative at this point are firefox and safari
  - moonchrome 5y ago
    I specifically remember them bragging about doing power consumption optimization. Microsoft is actively working on the rendering engine afaik. Safari isn't cross platform and Firefox is mostly worse than Chrome in my experience.
    - asddubs 5y ago
      but aren't they upstreaming those improvements?
  - anakaine 5y ago
    Edge does tend to have far better battery usage, however. Just because it shares the same base does not mean there have not been optimisations along the way.
    - siproprio 5y ago
      Unfortunately, if they exist, those optimizations are not open source.
ahartmetz 5y ago
Bloatware is a far too benign term for this. The browser should treat financial transactions like the post office treats a letter - never mess with the contents, just move it where it needs to go. This is a major breach of trust. It pisses me off and I don't even use Edge (or Chrome, or Windows) unless I have to, which is rare. Analog world analogy: Post office inserting advertisements for financing into sealed private letters.
- bckygldstn 5y ago
  The USPS inserts vast amounts of advertising into my letterbox, and (unlike in most countries) there's no way to opt out. Getting those last drops of profit margin require you to squeeze the consumer the hardest.
  - callmeal 5y ago
    >The USPS inserts vast amounts of advertising into my letterbox, and (unlike in most countries) there's no way to opt out. They don't insert it inside an envelope someone else sends you.
    - voussoir 5y ago
      "Every Door Direct Mail" blurs the line a bit. https://www.usps.com/business/every-door-direct-mail.htm https://www.usps.com/business/every-door-direct-mail.htm
      - callmeal 5y ago
        Not really. If I send you a (for example) Christmas card in an envelope - there is no way the USPS will insert an advertisement in the card.
  - djbusby 5y ago
    USPS doesn't insert the ad into the post, they *deliver* an ad in the post. They aren't making it and inserting it - like what MS is doing.
ht85 5y ago
"But this isn't unethical, there are no fees as long as people pay on time."
- zauguin 5y ago
  Noone claimed that there are no fees, there's only no interest... According to the zip FAQ (https://help.us.zip.co/hc/en-us/articles/4402386045979--Are-there-any-fees-to-use-the-Zip-app- https://help.us.zip.co/hc/en-us/articles/4402386045979--Are-...): > Purchases made with Zip are subject to a $1.00 platform fee per installment (a total of $4.00).
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    It's a marketing half-truth. "You'll pay a fixed fee instead of interest." is the real truth, the "zero interest" is to trick people to think there is nothing else to pay. I know people will turn their noses up and say "trick people, that's unpossible" but it really is a trick, very popular in marketing terms, using psychology against people to separate their money from them.
freediver 5y ago
Microsoft Edge had a great start, great distribution potential, good product thinking and innovative features. Then in a span of two days this plus https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2021/11/is-microsoft-stealing-peoples-bookmarks.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2021/11/is-microsoft-... Shooting yourself in the foot would be a correct characterization. Would be fun to see a video of the meeting when they decided this was a great idea. It almost signals a change in leadership that took place at the Edge team few months back, and a new product direction that Microsoft may regret in the future.
- Tempest1981 5y ago
  A few months back, I was actually saying good things about Edge, and recommending it to new Win10 users. Now I regret that. I feel betrayed.
- bmarquez 5y ago
  > I received email from two people who told me that Microsoft Edge enabled synching without warning or consent, which means that Microsoft sucked up all of their bookmarks. This just happened to me last week. Microsoft Edge turned on syncing without my permission, with options including passwords and payment methods turned on. I only used it for logging into Microsoft products but I don't even think I want to do that anymore, due to the loss of trust.
- TedShiller 5y ago
  I agree with everything you said, except that Edge had a great start
- donmcronald 5y ago
  They also have their coupon thing [1] which is an anti-consumer feature. If I wanted them scanning my shopping carts I can get an addon. I assume they're building a profile on me with that data. I honestly thought Edge would be able to take market share from Chrome because it was pretty good for a while if you were willing to log in to your MS account on all your devices. I like the syncing. The QR code scanning to get something onto my phone is handy. I thought MS was going to make a less creepy version of Edge. Now it seems like the opposite. They're going to build a 90s style toolbar infected monstrosity on top of Chromium. For shame! 1.https://www.howtogeek.com/721250/how-to-turn-off-online-shopping-coupons-in-microsoft-edge/ https://www.howtogeek.com/721250/how-to-turn-off-online-shop...
sergiotapia 5y ago
These buy now pay later companies are going gangbusters. How do they all survive when they essentially do the same thing? Isn't it becoming a commodity? What's to stop Citi or any other traditional bank from adding this feature to their arsenal? Like telehealth being relatively easy to spin up today with tools like Wheel and Twilio - are the margins in this here game the moves? Are these pay later companies _owned_ by incumbent banks and just rebrands? Or is it just sign of the times in todays startup space?
- cube00 5y ago
  Banks can't replicate these services because they are regulated and would be prohibited from lending to some of the customers based on their credit history. If you can't afford to pay $35-1,000 upfront, the rest of your financial situation would be pretty grim. These companies are trying to dodge regulation claiming they're "self regulating", if they don't succeed in pushing that narrative then the party's over. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-03/buy-now-pay-later-regulation-fintech-senate-inquiry/12614068 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-03/buy-now-pay-later-reg...
Pasorrijer 5y ago
If I'm not willing to pay for a browser, why should I be surprised when the free software tries to make money? Yeah, it's not ideal and I'll turn the feature off if it makes it public. But I'm choosing to use a free browser instead of paying for it.. So I can't blame a company for trying to monetize it.
- cyber_kinetist 5y ago
  The problem is, there is no paid browser you can pay for at the moment, so you don’t really have any choice in the matter. If some current/former Mozilla devs fork Firefox and start a new paid browser, I would gladly give money to them. ($5 per month subscription would probably be the sweet spot for such a paid browser program.)
- freediver 5y ago
  What happens when there is a feature in the future that you also do not like and you can not turn it off, but you are already locked in?
- Viliam1234 5y ago
  If you use Edge, I suppose you already paid for Windows, didn't you? Will similar "features" appear also in Notepad, Calculator, Character Map, etc.? Because, technically, you didn't pay for them either, they are just free application that got installed with Windows. Okay, maybe it is not as bad as I make it sound. Perhaps it would be nice if anytime you display a unicode character in Character Map, it offered you an option to buy a t-shirt with this character printed...
  - cube00 5y ago
    Notepad now has "Search with Bing" in its Edit menu and it can't be changed to another search engine.
    - krono 5y ago
      And a "Search Bing in Sidebar" context menu option when selecting text. And the default Chromium keyboard shortcut for searching selected text with your default search engine has been hardcoded to open Bing. And the new tab page searchbar takes an extra step to have it not search Bing when you have configured a different default search engine. And recently they added a neat search button in browser console events. Unfortunately it only does Bing, and news articles about Amazon worker strikes are not helpful when debugging web worker errors.... There's a lot of good stuff happening with this browser, but I'm definitely getting close to my breaking point.
tw04 5y ago
I think HN drastically underestimates how many average folks would actually enjoy having an easy to use interest free payment option. Not everyone lives in the valley and makes 6+ figures. With Christmas right around the corner I'm betting a ton of folks will welcome the option to spread their bills over 6 payments for free.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  These services are trivial to access by... just Googling for them. It's that simple. No need to promote them in-browser.
  - tw04 5y ago
    Again, you're assuming the average consumer is equipped to evaluate who is a valid lender and who is a scam. That's simply not reality.
    - richwater 5y ago
      If you can't take 5 minutes to verify who is lending you money, you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      I don't know about other countries, but at least the UK has a very large website/community dedicated to household financials, bills and so on, called Money Saving Expert. It's more than likely that such services would be mentioned, if your country has a corresponding site.
- Oddskar 5y ago
  If you can't afford it, then maybe don't buy it in the first place.
  - tw04 5y ago
    Ahh yes, the old: if you don't want to get pregnant just don't have sex. Nothing better than a condescending non-answer to the problem.
GordonS 5y ago
What on Earth are they doing?! The release a new Chromium-based browser, Edge - and it's well received, people actually like it as an alternative to Chrome. Sure, it has a very long way to go in terms of market share, but it's on a solid footing. And now they seem determined to give it a bad name - I can imagine corporations not wanting software like this in their networks, and mandating Chrome instead...
- qsort 5y ago
  I swear I don't get it at all. I'm not even mad, it's just depressing.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  Greed/impatience. Their major competitors have the smart strategy: Skim a small amount off the top quietly and forever (Apple, Google, and Facebook). The perfect rent-seekers. Microsoft doesn't want to put in the hard work/time/cost to create a comparable skimming operation, so they take ugly shortcuts like this. For one specific example, the Windows Store is trash. It has been trash for years. The visual refresh in Windows 11 hasn't fixed what is wrong with it (e.g. majority scam apps, difficult to locate stuff, difficult to evaluate the legitimacy/low trust). Microsoft needs to work hard/spend resources/put in the time to improve the experience, and then it will be a revenue generator, but why do that when you can do lazy stuff like this? Microsoft could be selling paid upgrades that add legitimately value to Windows that sell themselves, but again that requires actual hard work.
  - freediver 5y ago
    .. and this makes it the most valuable company on the planet. How did they achieve that in your opinion?
    - option_greek 5y ago
      Outlook365 + azure ad They didn't need anything else. Till there is no competition for user management and corporate email, they will be in business.
havkom 5y ago
Typical supoptimization that is probably suggested by some management consultant that has been hired by some department by an incompetent manager that him/herself is struggling (due to incompetence).
2Gkashmiri 5y ago
i use firefox. been using this since 2004 i think. never was i forced to "abandon" it, it worked for me. I can't say the same about how IE/Edge is handling stuff. Why? i get the whole "cooperation" with businesses and financial institutions who see this as "free real estate" but i am not sure how to take it. eh.
Causality1 5y ago
I agree with everything the author said, except for If you don’t want a browser that encourages unnecessary purchases, I recommend Firefox which made me nearly piss myself laughing. Mozilla can't go a month without shilling some new garbage on the Update or New Tab screen.
Mikeb85 5y ago
I was close to being convinced they weren't the M$ of old, but it turns out they are. Here's to another 10 years of never touching an MS product.
cube00 5y ago
I felt the same about the new math solver[1] they've added. Sure it's useful but it doesn't belong in a web browser's base install, this is what extensions are for. Same with Zip pay, if you want to use it, you go and install the extension. [1] https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2021/05/21/preview-microsoft-math-solver-microsoft-edge/ https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2021/05/21/preview-micro...
addicted 5y ago
Why can’t these be addons? And if they really want they can add some nag screens to get you to install the addon. Making it part of the base install is nonsensical at best.
rigelbm 5y ago
To be fair, if implemented correctly (read "as an opt-in"), that would have been a pretty useful feature. The browser already allows you to setup credit/debit card as payment options. Having an option to setup other payment providers sounds like a natural extension of that. The main issue is how they did it: as a forced feature screaming at your face, instead of something you have to setup yourself. On the flip side, I can see how difficult it would be discoverability of the feature if they just stashed it in a menu somewhere. Neither extreme is perfect. I would have erred on the side of not annoying most users.
- quietbritishjim 5y ago
  The fact that the payments are interest free makes it clear that they make their money by people failing to make their payments on time and paying a presumably high (and certainly unstated in that box) penalty rate. In other words, the goal is to direct vulnerable people at a predatory loan shark. That's hardly a useful feature, no matter how it's implemented.
  - TheCoelacanth 5y ago
    "Interest-free" is at best misleading and arguably an outright lie. There is a $4 fee to take out the loan. While a flat fee is not interest in the strictest terms, if they were using APR, which is the standard way of talking about interest rates for consumer loans, it would be a non-zero rate.
    - rurp 5y ago
      To make it even worse it's only interest free if the payments are made on time. I'm sure the business model expects a certain amount of people to miss a payment and end up owing credit card level interest amounts, on top of the initial fee. This is extremely scummy.
devwastaken 5y ago
Apples market share is further increasing. The mismanagement of Microsoft is detrimental to the computing market. Someone needs to be grabbing control of Microsoft and giving it a singular vision. Fire those that undermine it. Less employees, Less marketing, more engineering. Heart disease will kill this company in the long term.
- marcodiego 5y ago
  People have been saying things like this since the 90's. History has shown that when monopoly is strong enough, long term is long enough.
zz865 5y ago
I think this is dumb. But I also know the vast majority of people are very different to HN devs, and MS could make a lot of revenue with this.
- jeltz 5y ago
  This kind of business practice is almost universally hated though. I really doubt that only HN cares.
  - Fogest 5y ago
    I feel like every browser but maybe Chrome has tried to shove some kind of bloatware into their product. For example, Firefox has tried for ages to cram Pocket down peoples throats and people seem fine with that. I don't agree with any of this bloat, but it seems like people are okay with some of this kind of bloat as long as it's only from certain companies.
    - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
      Firefox threw their hat in with the "it's our browser and we're kindly letting you use it" crowd a couple of years ago. Shame.
      - Fogest 5y ago
        Yeah, unfortunately I don't even really consider Firefox when I am considering browser options anymore.
dreyfan 5y ago
I don’t grasp the allure of Buy Now Pay Later. Isn’t that precisely what credit cards provide? Are they pushing more charges to the retailer and less interest charges to the consumer?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Presumably, people who use Buy Now Pay Later do not qualify for credit cards. Hence the extremely high effective interest rates (referred to as some type of “fee” instead of interest).
  - Oddskar 5y ago
    Which makes it even more scummy to include this in a browser.
- bjohnson225 5y ago
  It’s popular with young people who can’t get or don’t want credit cards (just look at the marketing for Klarna to see the target market). Customers and merchants like it for the same reason - it allows a transaction to happen that otherwise wouldn’t. Merchant gets their money, customer gets their product and pays no fees if they repay on schedule. Obviously if you can’t afford an item without this type of system then the probability that you miss a payment is high, and then these companies make their profit.
  - chrismorgan 5y ago
    > and pays no fees if they repay on schedule Every single instance of this type of thing that I’ve looked at has had a fee for using their services, either a flat amount or a percentage of the transaction cost, so that even if they’re interest-free (and don’t they announce that loudly!) they’re not cost-free.
- quickthrowman 5y ago
  > Are they pushing more charges to the retailer and less interest charges to the consumer? This is my understanding of how the “no-interest” BNPL offers work. You can buy a Peloton bike and finance it through Affirm for 0% interest. The only way that scheme works for Affirm is if Peloton pays a kickback to Affirm for handling the financing. I just read through their latest 10Q and it confirmed what I assumed: “From merchants, we earn a fee when we help them convert a sale and facilitate a transaction. While merchant fees depend on the individual arrangement between us and each merchant and vary based on the terms of the product offering, we generally earn larger merchant fees on 0% APR financing products. For the three months ended September 30, 2021 and 2020, 0% APR financing represented 43% and 46%, respectively, of total GMV facilitated through our platform.” They also buy and service some of the loans they make. https://investors.affirm.com/static-files/c2bbca98-f909-4961-87ec-f16b67233c57#page11 https://investors.affirm.com/static-files/c2bbca98-f909-4961...
pipeline_peak 5y ago
Not letting users uninstall Edge is the definition of bloat ware. Imagine forcing the world to use your little chrome distro. It’s like they find reasons to make us hate them.
monsieurgaufre 5y ago
Not enough people seem aware that you can remove Edge using winget and be done with it.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Not enough people seems to be aware that even if you remove Edge, Microsoft will force you to open certain web links in their own browser, even going as far as to prevent Mozilla/Firefox for brute-force solving the problem.
  - monsieurgaufre 5y ago
    You may be right. I just haven't encountered this problem as of yet.
indymike 5y ago
This is just good old monopoly market capture. Edge is malware, don't support it.
sedatk 5y ago
Everybody treats this news like something out of thin air. Microsoft Edge has been "enhancing" e-commerce transactions for a while now: coupons, cashback, and price histograms. I actually like those features although their usefulness is mostly marginal. When Edge ensures me that I'm buying it at the lowest price, it's reassuring and welcome, but the coupon experience is 99% "we've tried all possible coupons and sorry, nothing worked". I don't even know what's up with the cashback thing. Anyway, Edge has been integrating these features for a while, they've been welcomed or at least haven't been an issue. Now, they added another feature which seems like a minor extension to what's already there, and I can understand why the team didn't think it wasn't as big a deal as it was discussed here. I like Edge, I think it's the only candidate that can surpass Chrome at some point, and I want the team to be positively responsive to the criticism here. Fingers crossed.
Ekaros 5y ago
Thinking of where possibly MS would get revenue streams from Windows it seems pretty clear they have to do something. Realistically how home users buy Windows for full retail price?
Pxtl 5y ago
I'm putting together a new laptop for my very elderly father-in-law - he basically just wants it for card games and e-mail. He doesn't even web browse. I was planning an S-mode windows laptop for security reasons - Windows Marketplace only. But first I looked into it and was shocked that they've replaced Solitaire, Hearts, and Minesweeper with freemium products that are bloated with ads and have a monthly or yearly fee to get rid of the ads. And of course, how many ads have horrifying notices like "your computer is being hacked!!!!" ? Perfect for an elderly and forgetful luddite. And because of the onerous signing to submit to the marketplace, even common open-source software isn't there. This is a massive step back by Microsoft - he just wants his old Solitaire and Hearts and to play some Sudoku, but they killed those and replaced them with freemium subscription products and the rest of the Windows Marketplace is similar. So this is tangentially-related to the article, but my point: very disappointed to see MS jumping on the modern business model for software.
TedShiller 5y ago
That’s why there’s Apple
- aceArtGmbH 5y ago
  so you want to install the proprietary Safari browser which isn't even available for any OS other than MacOS?
TedShiller 5y ago
People still use Windows? I thought that was a 90s thing
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  Apparently their next version will be ready for desktop use, they just need to add some super basic features (pin-to-top?) to their WM and they're there. Next year could finally be the year they're ready for Windows to be good on desktops!
- anakaine 5y ago
  I'm unsure if you're being facetious or not, but >85% of the market is on Windows. https://hostingtribunal.com/blog/operating-systems-market-share/ https://hostingtribunal.com/blog/operating-systems-market-sh...
  - TedShiller 5y ago
    True, dental offices use Windows. But I don't know many people who like computers who use Windows.
anonnyj 5y ago
Buy Now Pay Later is yet another pink tax
intricatedetail 5y ago
Please lobby your software provider to release Linux builds. I only use Windows because some software do not exist and don't work on Linux. If not for that I would have run Linux long time ago.
nunez 5y ago
Very telling of the financial state of the average American. Everyone is hawking interest-free monthly payments, usually through Klarna (which Microsoft Store partnered with, making this especially strange). Great tool if used responsibly, but given companies advertising increasingly expensive crap and how most Americans can't save $1,000, you know this will just increase the class of the permanently-indebted
- freewilly1040 5y ago
  It all depends on what these interest free payments are competing with. If it is credit cards, you could tell the story that consumers see through the ruse of credit cards and are looking for a better deal.
rkagerer 5y ago
Microsoft Edge’s Zip payments integration is already available in the Canary and Dev channels, and it will roll out to everyone in the stable release of Microsoft Edge 96 Edge 96 released to Stable channel two days ago. My prediction is blowback to this quintessentially stupid product decision will result in it getting pulled within the next few weeks and the firing or transition to a different unit of whatever moron approved this PR disaster.
- kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  You misspelled “Promotion to Senior Product Manager.”
peanut_worm 5y ago
Wow I am shocked this is remotely legal. I don’t understand why the government isn’t doing something. They got in trouble for so much less for what they pulled in the 90s with IE.
- FDSGSG 5y ago
  What they did with IE might actually have been illegal, this is not.
timwaagh 5y ago
I'm guessing EU aren't going to like this. Microsoft might not be the primary browser vendor anymore but this still is similar to stuff they've already been sued for. Also I figure that such a focus on retail shopping might annoy their enterprise customers. Like what are their employees going to do all day. If you ask Microsoft it's spending their ssalary (and getting into debt),not doing their job.
ineptech 5y ago
Jesus Christ! Even for M$, this is beyond the pale - combining pseudo-monopoly power, dark UX patterns, and high-interest credit. What's next, will airlines start dropping adverts for payday loans when their flight path goes over a poor neighborhood? It seems like we are in the "extending credit to broke people is so lucrative that regular non-finance companies are getting in on it" stage of the current bubble.
- mgh2 5y ago
  Isn't this Affirm business model?
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
> There are no interest fees, assuming you pay each installment on time. Which means they almost certainly make their revenue on payday-loan style shafting if you miss a payment.
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
Advertising payment processors is ok behaviour by Microsoft but attempting to make Windows actually respect the users default browser choice is "improper" behaviour by Mozilla[0][1]. Interesting mental gymnastics Microsoft. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/15/22782802/microsoft-block-edgedeflector-windows-11 https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/15/22782802/microsoft-block... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29251210 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29251210
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mrtweetyhack 5y ago
Buy now, pay never
maybenotafart 5y ago
I dont trust it.
siproprio 5y ago
They also purposefully changed some settings in my machine to suck even more of my data. The more time I spend on edge, the more I hate microsoft.
devops000 5y ago
It should be illegal to incentivize consumer people to take loan.
charles_f 5y ago
I'm on the fence on this one. I don't like how the feature is pushed "in your face" like that. And at the same time, I trust Microsoft more than the average nowadays company to be respectful of privacy and my data - albeit the average is low and this is a low standard to achieve. If you don't make money out of selling your customer's data, then you need to find ways to actually collect money from them. The how it's been done is disgusting, but I think I'm aligned with the why.

560 points by JCWasmx86 5y ago

Microsoft needs to do everything they can to promote Edge in order to capture market share. Edge and Microsoft have nowhere near the browser share needed to pull this behavior. And this differentiator is a detractor for me rather than a useful feature. But then again this wasn't built for the end-users, this is clearly revenue base. Just another reason to not use Edge.

lozenge 5y ago
They are. You can't use many features of Windows any more without Edge opening - default browser or not.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  They're riding the line of unfairly non-competitive behaviour again. They haven't learnt. Seems they just got better as an organisation at hiding their malignancy behind a facade of propriety.
  - 8note 5y ago
    I don't think the market is in a similar place anymore. You can avoid edge by using your iphone, and you can avoid safari by using your laptop
    - donmcronald 5y ago
      It might be different legally, but it's the same scummy behavior that I'd like to see punished. Maybe it's time for updated laws so having two or three global competitors isn't considered ok.
merrywhether 5y ago
But how much money can they possibly be making from a deal like this? It surely is a blip on MS’ radar. That’s what so confusing about dumb moves like this while Edge is still trying to gain market share.
grishka 5y ago
> this is clearly revenue base As if Windows itself is free. I mean it technically is, you can use it just fine without activation, but isn't the cost of these licenses supposed to pay for everything?
- mastax 5y ago
  Doesn't matter how profitable you are, you need to make more next quarter.
  - grishka 5y ago
    It feels like there has to be some limit to this kind of "growth".
siproprio 5y ago
They don't need any promotion. They'll just achieve domination through bundling edge with windows and making it impossible to switch. I used to have a more positive version of microsoft up until the point they started flexing their evil muscles to push low quality products into technically unsophisticated users. Edge+Bing+Office+Windows feeding on each other is the greatest example right now. Gladly we acted as quickly as possible where I worked to leave github when they announced the msft acquisition, so at least my part is covered.

froggertoaster 5y ago

I'd rather endure Microsoft's bloated browser than ever, as the author suggests, use the browser owned by the morally and ethically bankrupt Mozilla.

JCWasmx86 5y ago
I think Microsoft did a lot more morally and ethically questionable things than Mozilla
AlexandrB 5y ago
I'm trying to put myself in the headspace of thinking Mozilla is more morally bankrupt than Microsoft but I'm really struggling with it. I suppose that some people believe this means Microsoft marketing has done a good job of rehabilitating their image over the last 10 years.
- ZanyProgrammer 5y ago
  My guess is that there's a fair amount of politics behind such a statement. The kind of politics that has to do with SJWs, Eich, etc rather than any purely technical engineering decisions.
  - froggertoaster 5y ago
    You are quite perceptive. Yes, I find the ousting of Eich to be extremely distasteful. I haven't used a Mozilla product since. Can't speak on the SJW thing though, I have no "anti-SJW" feelings in general, esp. as it relates to Mozilla.
- colesantiago 5y ago
  Mozilla is more morally bankrupt after taking Google money and letting the rise of Chrome going unchecked.
  - jfk13 5y ago
    Do you know some magic formula that would have enabled Mozilla to halt Chrome's "unchecked rise", given the behemoth that was pushing it? Despite having only a fraction of Google's resources, Mozilla continues to develop a competitive browser that provides a realistic alternative to Chrome. But it has never had access to the sort of channels and budget that Google used to promote its browser. (Of course Mozilla has made its share of mistakes. That's an inevitable part of attempting to do anything in this world. But "morally bankrupt" is not a description I recognise.)

tyleo 5y ago

The fact that Edge lags behind in desktop browser share is absurd. Looking at some charts online it appears to have 1/5 the usage of Chrome. That’s crazy. 80% of people are finding, installing, and using Chrome when a default is provided by the OS. On the other hand, the continuous own-goals like this leave me unsurprised. It’s like Microsoft wants to create a bad browser.

notriddle 5y ago
Or it's bundled by their PC, along with mcafee
dgellow 5y ago
20% of Chrome market share in ~1 year is not that bad IMHO. The new Edge is fairly recent.
- tentacleuno 5y ago
  It looks good on paper but we both know a large amount of that is due to the dark patterns Microsoft employs in Windows to force people into using Edge[0][1]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29248460 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29248460 [1]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=Microsoft%20edge&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
AlexandrB 5y ago
It feels like a very "enterprisey" way of thinking. Where business deals and partnerships take precedence over user experience. I'm reminded of how the Java installer bundled (or still bundles?) an Ask toolbar for some reason.
- heurisko 5y ago
  I was going to say the same thing. Truly bizarre that Oracle did this for so long. There was even a petition about it. https://www.change.org/p/oracle-corporation-stop-bundling-ask-toolbar-with-the-java-installer https://www.change.org/p/oracle-corporation-stop-bundling-as... It seemed such a counterproductive way to popularise a platform, as it immediately shredded their credibility, to seem the same level as that of some random company peddling malware.

e-clinton 5y ago

It’s just a piece of software they’re trying to monetize. Not sure Microsoft would make more money if usage were higher without doing things like this. I agree that it’s annoying, I use and like the browser.

aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago

Lol, nice to see the MS of the 90s is still living strong behind the facade! inb4 "but they had pinky promised they've changed!"

vidanay 5y ago

I've been on the precipice of dumping Edge based on their constant re-enabling of the shopping popups, this might be the shove from behind that makes me jump.

bagacrap 5y ago

I don't use these services, but it's hard to see this as anything but a value judgement against "buy now pay later" schemes. If we set that aside, and (for the sake of argument) recognize this service as value-adding for many users, it does seem to be in line with the rest of that feature (the option hooks into Chromium's autofill/payments integration, so you'd usually see saved credit cards here). In fact I don't really see what the difference is between this and a credit card (where you do pay later, after all, hence "credit"). Is it that it shows even before you've signed up for Zip? So it's equivalent to asking if you want to sign up for a new credit card. I guess that's somewhat annoying. And being unable to disable it is also annoying, but equivalent to the exact same schemes I see baked into the merchant site all over the web. Does anyone know why Zip isn't already implemented as a credit card with delayed interest rates?

05 5y ago
The service is one of the many predatory lending services that exploits the poor to further the class gap.. https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-08-11/sleek-new-credit-apps-target-a-young-generation-already-drowning-in-debt https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-08-11/sleek-new-...
- htk 5y ago
  “To further the class gap” I personally don’t like the service but that’s quite the leap.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
The value judgement is because they target the people that can't afford it by making them think they can. This kind of scheme works fine if you're good at managing finances. You can plan ahead and set the money for the repayments aside. Though if you are good at it, I wouldn't see why you'd bother. Unfortunately, the kind of people that need this kind of scheme to buy stuff, are generally really bad at managing their finances. Otherwise they would have had buffer savings and could buy the thing just out of pocket. In the end it brings them only deeper into the debt hole. The only thing I'd take a loan (mortgage) for is a house, personally. Even my cars I paid all in cash (my most expensive one was a 2200 euro Volvo and it served me well for many years :) Personally I think ethically it's similar to the tobacco industry. They're exploiting a weakness of some people. Sure, they could resist it but some people are just not capable of doing so.

jetrink 5y ago

The company had over 100B in revenue last year. By adding this sleazy anti-feature, Microsoft is sacrificing its reputation and the quality of a high-profile product for probably a few million? That's a few thousandths of one percent of their total revenue. I don't understand it.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago
The product manager behind this cares about having numbers to show their manager and isn't concerned about the potential reputational impact it might have on the company as a whole. Their manager likewise will be happy to report in turn to their manager that they've increased revenue by a large amount. It's peanuts to the company but could be a large increase for that particular product which is what the managers get rewarded on.
- marcodiego 5y ago
  People use office because they need a feature or compatibility. Nobody chooses software based on reputation.
  - thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
    >> Nobody chooses software based on reputation. That's why Google has been so successful with Stadia.
    - jchw 5y ago
      Stadia isn’t even a good idea in the first place. Even if it is the best implementation of the idea, I still have no idea how it could ever make much sense. Other players in the space, like GeForce Now, don’t exactly look appealing either.
      - sangnoir 5y ago
        I know it's a niche market, but Stadia is really convenient when traveling. All you need to pack is a controller.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

GekkePrutser 5y ago

<facepalm>... :X You had one job, Microsoft. To take Chrome and make it less privacy-invasive and more clean.

netizen-936824 5y ago
You honestly think that was a goal? There's no way Microsoft had the goal of increasing user privacy with the engine switch
- merrywhether 5y ago
  Their north star should be taking market share back from Google, not getting sidetracked with these piddling income schemes or anything else. It is worth so much more to them in the long run to break Chrome’s monopoly than anything in my short term. So if privacy is what people want, give it to them now and figure out monetization after you’ve beaten Chrome.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Have you really beaten Chrome if you're shipping another version of Chrome? :)
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Well they have been a bit more restricted in terms of privacy exploitation though their usual telemetry is there of course. MS just love telemetry :( So much they won't allow us a choice in the matter. But they have been pushing it a bit as a more privacy centric version of Chrome right? Tbh I never really saw the point in it especially after they moved to chromium. It's not much better at privacy than Chrome. It doesn't work any better because it's really just Chrome. It doesn't add any features Chrome doesn't have except for O365 users that get some integration there. So why are we supposed to love it? I thought it was more interesting when they made their own engine. I still find it a weird value proposition as a user. I use it for work but privately Firefox does me just fine.
Gigamo 5y ago

moonchrome 5y ago

Yeah I don't have an anti Microsoft sentiment like the loud posters in these threads and I'm actually interested in chrome alternatives for cross platform browser (chrome battery usage is abysmal) but this shit makes me permanently ignore Edge. Bundling 3rs party commercial extensions in the browser - no thanks.

asddubs 5y ago
edge isn't a real chrome alternative from a technological standpoint. it's the same thing reskinned. the only browsers that are still a true alternative at this point are firefox and safari
- moonchrome 5y ago
  I specifically remember them bragging about doing power consumption optimization. Microsoft is actively working on the rendering engine afaik. Safari isn't cross platform and Firefox is mostly worse than Chrome in my experience.
  - asddubs 5y ago
    but aren't they upstreaming those improvements?
- anakaine 5y ago
  Edge does tend to have far better battery usage, however. Just because it shares the same base does not mean there have not been optimisations along the way.
  - siproprio 5y ago
    Unfortunately, if they exist, those optimizations are not open source.

ahartmetz 5y ago

Bloatware is a far too benign term for this. The browser should treat financial transactions like the post office treats a letter - never mess with the contents, just move it where it needs to go. This is a major breach of trust. It pisses me off and I don't even use Edge (or Chrome, or Windows) unless I have to, which is rare. Analog world analogy: Post office inserting advertisements for financing into sealed private letters.

bckygldstn 5y ago
The USPS inserts vast amounts of advertising into my letterbox, and (unlike in most countries) there's no way to opt out. Getting those last drops of profit margin require you to squeeze the consumer the hardest.
- callmeal 5y ago
  >The USPS inserts vast amounts of advertising into my letterbox, and (unlike in most countries) there's no way to opt out. They don't insert it inside an envelope someone else sends you.
  - voussoir 5y ago
    "Every Door Direct Mail" blurs the line a bit. https://www.usps.com/business/every-door-direct-mail.htm https://www.usps.com/business/every-door-direct-mail.htm
    - callmeal 5y ago
      Not really. If I send you a (for example) Christmas card in an envelope - there is no way the USPS will insert an advertisement in the card.
- djbusby 5y ago
  USPS doesn't insert the ad into the post, they *deliver* an ad in the post. They aren't making it and inserting it - like what MS is doing.

ht85 5y ago

"But this isn't unethical, there are no fees as long as people pay on time."

zauguin 5y ago
Noone claimed that there are no fees, there's only no interest... According to the zip FAQ (https://help.us.zip.co/hc/en-us/articles/4402386045979--Are-there-any-fees-to-use-the-Zip-app- https://help.us.zip.co/hc/en-us/articles/4402386045979--Are-...): > Purchases made with Zip are subject to a $1.00 platform fee per installment (a total of $4.00).
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  It's a marketing half-truth. "You'll pay a fixed fee instead of interest." is the real truth, the "zero interest" is to trick people to think there is nothing else to pay. I know people will turn their noses up and say "trick people, that's unpossible" but it really is a trick, very popular in marketing terms, using psychology against people to separate their money from them.

freediver 5y ago

Microsoft Edge had a great start, great distribution potential, good product thinking and innovative features. Then in a span of two days this plus https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2021/11/is-microsoft-stealing-peoples-bookmarks.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2021/11/is-microsoft-... Shooting yourself in the foot would be a correct characterization. Would be fun to see a video of the meeting when they decided this was a great idea. It almost signals a change in leadership that took place at the Edge team few months back, and a new product direction that Microsoft may regret in the future.

Tempest1981 5y ago
A few months back, I was actually saying good things about Edge, and recommending it to new Win10 users. Now I regret that. I feel betrayed.
bmarquez 5y ago
> I received email from two people who told me that Microsoft Edge enabled synching without warning or consent, which means that Microsoft sucked up all of their bookmarks. This just happened to me last week. Microsoft Edge turned on syncing without my permission, with options including passwords and payment methods turned on. I only used it for logging into Microsoft products but I don't even think I want to do that anymore, due to the loss of trust.
TedShiller 5y ago
I agree with everything you said, except that Edge had a great start
donmcronald 5y ago
They also have their coupon thing [1] which is an anti-consumer feature. If I wanted them scanning my shopping carts I can get an addon. I assume they're building a profile on me with that data. I honestly thought Edge would be able to take market share from Chrome because it was pretty good for a while if you were willing to log in to your MS account on all your devices. I like the syncing. The QR code scanning to get something onto my phone is handy. I thought MS was going to make a less creepy version of Edge. Now it seems like the opposite. They're going to build a 90s style toolbar infected monstrosity on top of Chromium. For shame! 1.https://www.howtogeek.com/721250/how-to-turn-off-online-shopping-coupons-in-microsoft-edge/ https://www.howtogeek.com/721250/how-to-turn-off-online-shop...

sergiotapia 5y ago

These buy now pay later companies are going gangbusters. How do they all survive when they essentially do the same thing? Isn't it becoming a commodity? What's to stop Citi or any other traditional bank from adding this feature to their arsenal? Like telehealth being relatively easy to spin up today with tools like Wheel and Twilio - are the margins in this here game the moves? Are these pay later companies _owned_ by incumbent banks and just rebrands? Or is it just sign of the times in todays startup space?

cube00 5y ago
Banks can't replicate these services because they are regulated and would be prohibited from lending to some of the customers based on their credit history. If you can't afford to pay $35-1,000 upfront, the rest of your financial situation would be pretty grim. These companies are trying to dodge regulation claiming they're "self regulating", if they don't succeed in pushing that narrative then the party's over. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-03/buy-now-pay-later-regulation-fintech-senate-inquiry/12614068 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-03/buy-now-pay-later-reg...

Pasorrijer 5y ago

If I'm not willing to pay for a browser, why should I be surprised when the free software tries to make money? Yeah, it's not ideal and I'll turn the feature off if it makes it public. But I'm choosing to use a free browser instead of paying for it.. So I can't blame a company for trying to monetize it.

cyber_kinetist 5y ago
The problem is, there is no paid browser you can pay for at the moment, so you don’t really have any choice in the matter. If some current/former Mozilla devs fork Firefox and start a new paid browser, I would gladly give money to them. ($5 per month subscription would probably be the sweet spot for such a paid browser program.)
freediver 5y ago
What happens when there is a feature in the future that you also do not like and you can not turn it off, but you are already locked in?
Viliam1234 5y ago
If you use Edge, I suppose you already paid for Windows, didn't you? Will similar "features" appear also in Notepad, Calculator, Character Map, etc.? Because, technically, you didn't pay for them either, they are just free application that got installed with Windows. Okay, maybe it is not as bad as I make it sound. Perhaps it would be nice if anytime you display a unicode character in Character Map, it offered you an option to buy a t-shirt with this character printed...
- cube00 5y ago
  Notepad now has "Search with Bing" in its Edit menu and it can't be changed to another search engine.
  - krono 5y ago
    And a "Search Bing in Sidebar" context menu option when selecting text. And the default Chromium keyboard shortcut for searching selected text with your default search engine has been hardcoded to open Bing. And the new tab page searchbar takes an extra step to have it not search Bing when you have configured a different default search engine. And recently they added a neat search button in browser console events. Unfortunately it only does Bing, and news articles about Amazon worker strikes are not helpful when debugging web worker errors.... There's a lot of good stuff happening with this browser, but I'm definitely getting close to my breaking point.

tw04 5y ago

I think HN drastically underestimates how many average folks would actually enjoy having an easy to use interest free payment option. Not everyone lives in the valley and makes 6+ figures. With Christmas right around the corner I'm betting a ton of folks will welcome the option to spread their bills over 6 payments for free.

selfhoster11 5y ago
These services are trivial to access by... just Googling for them. It's that simple. No need to promote them in-browser.
- tw04 5y ago
  Again, you're assuming the average consumer is equipped to evaluate who is a valid lender and who is a scam. That's simply not reality.
  - richwater 5y ago
    If you can't take 5 minutes to verify who is lending you money, you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    I don't know about other countries, but at least the UK has a very large website/community dedicated to household financials, bills and so on, called Money Saving Expert. It's more than likely that such services would be mentioned, if your country has a corresponding site.
Oddskar 5y ago
If you can't afford it, then maybe don't buy it in the first place.
- tw04 5y ago
  Ahh yes, the old: if you don't want to get pregnant just don't have sex. Nothing better than a condescending non-answer to the problem.

GordonS 5y ago

What on Earth are they doing?! The release a new Chromium-based browser, Edge - and it's well received, people actually like it as an alternative to Chrome. Sure, it has a very long way to go in terms of market share, but it's on a solid footing. And now they seem determined to give it a bad name - I can imagine corporations not wanting software like this in their networks, and mandating Chrome instead...

qsort 5y ago
I swear I don't get it at all. I'm not even mad, it's just depressing.
Someone1234 5y ago
Greed/impatience. Their major competitors have the smart strategy: Skim a small amount off the top quietly and forever (Apple, Google, and Facebook). The perfect rent-seekers. Microsoft doesn't want to put in the hard work/time/cost to create a comparable skimming operation, so they take ugly shortcuts like this. For one specific example, the Windows Store is trash. It has been trash for years. The visual refresh in Windows 11 hasn't fixed what is wrong with it (e.g. majority scam apps, difficult to locate stuff, difficult to evaluate the legitimacy/low trust). Microsoft needs to work hard/spend resources/put in the time to improve the experience, and then it will be a revenue generator, but why do that when you can do lazy stuff like this? Microsoft could be selling paid upgrades that add legitimately value to Windows that sell themselves, but again that requires actual hard work.
- freediver 5y ago
  .. and this makes it the most valuable company on the planet. How did they achieve that in your opinion?
  - option_greek 5y ago
    Outlook365 + azure ad They didn't need anything else. Till there is no competition for user management and corporate email, they will be in business.

havkom 5y ago

Typical supoptimization that is probably suggested by some management consultant that has been hired by some department by an incompetent manager that him/herself is struggling (due to incompetence).

2Gkashmiri 5y ago

i use firefox. been using this since 2004 i think. never was i forced to "abandon" it, it worked for me. I can't say the same about how IE/Edge is handling stuff. Why? i get the whole "cooperation" with businesses and financial institutions who see this as "free real estate" but i am not sure how to take it. eh.

Causality1 5y ago

I agree with everything the author said, except for If you don’t want a browser that encourages unnecessary purchases, I recommend Firefox which made me nearly piss myself laughing. Mozilla can't go a month without shilling some new garbage on the Update or New Tab screen.

Mikeb85 5y ago

I was close to being convinced they weren't the M$ of old, but it turns out they are. Here's to another 10 years of never touching an MS product.

cube00 5y ago

I felt the same about the new math solver[1] they've added. Sure it's useful but it doesn't belong in a web browser's base install, this is what extensions are for. Same with Zip pay, if you want to use it, you go and install the extension. [1] https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2021/05/21/preview-microsoft-math-solver-microsoft-edge/ https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2021/05/21/preview-micro...

addicted 5y ago

Why can’t these be addons? And if they really want they can add some nag screens to get you to install the addon. Making it part of the base install is nonsensical at best.

rigelbm 5y ago

To be fair, if implemented correctly (read "as an opt-in"), that would have been a pretty useful feature. The browser already allows you to setup credit/debit card as payment options. Having an option to setup other payment providers sounds like a natural extension of that. The main issue is how they did it: as a forced feature screaming at your face, instead of something you have to setup yourself. On the flip side, I can see how difficult it would be discoverability of the feature if they just stashed it in a menu somewhere. Neither extreme is perfect. I would have erred on the side of not annoying most users.

quietbritishjim 5y ago
The fact that the payments are interest free makes it clear that they make their money by people failing to make their payments on time and paying a presumably high (and certainly unstated in that box) penalty rate. In other words, the goal is to direct vulnerable people at a predatory loan shark. That's hardly a useful feature, no matter how it's implemented.
- TheCoelacanth 5y ago
  "Interest-free" is at best misleading and arguably an outright lie. There is a $4 fee to take out the loan. While a flat fee is not interest in the strictest terms, if they were using APR, which is the standard way of talking about interest rates for consumer loans, it would be a non-zero rate.
  - rurp 5y ago
    To make it even worse it's only interest free if the payments are made on time. I'm sure the business model expects a certain amount of people to miss a payment and end up owing credit card level interest amounts, on top of the initial fee. This is extremely scummy.

devwastaken 5y ago

Apples market share is further increasing. The mismanagement of Microsoft is detrimental to the computing market. Someone needs to be grabbing control of Microsoft and giving it a singular vision. Fire those that undermine it. Less employees, Less marketing, more engineering. Heart disease will kill this company in the long term.

marcodiego 5y ago
People have been saying things like this since the 90's. History has shown that when monopoly is strong enough, long term is long enough.

zz865 5y ago

I think this is dumb. But I also know the vast majority of people are very different to HN devs, and MS could make a lot of revenue with this.

jeltz 5y ago
This kind of business practice is almost universally hated though. I really doubt that only HN cares.
- Fogest 5y ago
  I feel like every browser but maybe Chrome has tried to shove some kind of bloatware into their product. For example, Firefox has tried for ages to cram Pocket down peoples throats and people seem fine with that. I don't agree with any of this bloat, but it seems like people are okay with some of this kind of bloat as long as it's only from certain companies.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    Firefox threw their hat in with the "it's our browser and we're kindly letting you use it" crowd a couple of years ago. Shame.
    - Fogest 5y ago
      Yeah, unfortunately I don't even really consider Firefox when I am considering browser options anymore.

dreyfan 5y ago

I don’t grasp the allure of Buy Now Pay Later. Isn’t that precisely what credit cards provide? Are they pushing more charges to the retailer and less interest charges to the consumer?

lotsofpulp 5y ago
Presumably, people who use Buy Now Pay Later do not qualify for credit cards. Hence the extremely high effective interest rates (referred to as some type of “fee” instead of interest).
- Oddskar 5y ago
  Which makes it even more scummy to include this in a browser.
bjohnson225 5y ago
It’s popular with young people who can’t get or don’t want credit cards (just look at the marketing for Klarna to see the target market). Customers and merchants like it for the same reason - it allows a transaction to happen that otherwise wouldn’t. Merchant gets their money, customer gets their product and pays no fees if they repay on schedule. Obviously if you can’t afford an item without this type of system then the probability that you miss a payment is high, and then these companies make their profit.
- chrismorgan 5y ago
  > and pays no fees if they repay on schedule Every single instance of this type of thing that I’ve looked at has had a fee for using their services, either a flat amount or a percentage of the transaction cost, so that even if they’re interest-free (and don’t they announce that loudly!) they’re not cost-free.
quickthrowman 5y ago
> Are they pushing more charges to the retailer and less interest charges to the consumer? This is my understanding of how the “no-interest” BNPL offers work. You can buy a Peloton bike and finance it through Affirm for 0% interest. The only way that scheme works for Affirm is if Peloton pays a kickback to Affirm for handling the financing. I just read through their latest 10Q and it confirmed what I assumed: “From merchants, we earn a fee when we help them convert a sale and facilitate a transaction. While merchant fees depend on the individual arrangement between us and each merchant and vary based on the terms of the product offering, we generally earn larger merchant fees on 0% APR financing products. For the three months ended September 30, 2021 and 2020, 0% APR financing represented 43% and 46%, respectively, of total GMV facilitated through our platform.” They also buy and service some of the loans they make. https://investors.affirm.com/static-files/c2bbca98-f909-4961-87ec-f16b67233c57#page11 https://investors.affirm.com/static-files/c2bbca98-f909-4961...

pipeline_peak 5y ago

Not letting users uninstall Edge is the definition of bloat ware. Imagine forcing the world to use your little chrome distro. It’s like they find reasons to make us hate them.

monsieurgaufre 5y ago

Not enough people seem aware that you can remove Edge using winget and be done with it.

capableweb 5y ago
Not enough people seems to be aware that even if you remove Edge, Microsoft will force you to open certain web links in their own browser, even going as far as to prevent Mozilla/Firefox for brute-force solving the problem.
- monsieurgaufre 5y ago
  You may be right. I just haven't encountered this problem as of yet.

indymike 5y ago

This is just good old monopoly market capture. Edge is malware, don't support it.

sedatk 5y ago

Everybody treats this news like something out of thin air. Microsoft Edge has been "enhancing" e-commerce transactions for a while now: coupons, cashback, and price histograms. I actually like those features although their usefulness is mostly marginal. When Edge ensures me that I'm buying it at the lowest price, it's reassuring and welcome, but the coupon experience is 99% "we've tried all possible coupons and sorry, nothing worked". I don't even know what's up with the cashback thing. Anyway, Edge has been integrating these features for a while, they've been welcomed or at least haven't been an issue. Now, they added another feature which seems like a minor extension to what's already there, and I can understand why the team didn't think it wasn't as big a deal as it was discussed here. I like Edge, I think it's the only candidate that can surpass Chrome at some point, and I want the team to be positively responsive to the criticism here. Fingers crossed.

Ekaros 5y ago

Thinking of where possibly MS would get revenue streams from Windows it seems pretty clear they have to do something. Realistically how home users buy Windows for full retail price?

Pxtl 5y ago

I'm putting together a new laptop for my very elderly father-in-law - he basically just wants it for card games and e-mail. He doesn't even web browse. I was planning an S-mode windows laptop for security reasons - Windows Marketplace only. But first I looked into it and was shocked that they've replaced Solitaire, Hearts, and Minesweeper with freemium products that are bloated with ads and have a monthly or yearly fee to get rid of the ads. And of course, how many ads have horrifying notices like "your computer is being hacked!!!!" ? Perfect for an elderly and forgetful luddite. And because of the onerous signing to submit to the marketplace, even common open-source software isn't there. This is a massive step back by Microsoft - he just wants his old Solitaire and Hearts and to play some Sudoku, but they killed those and replaced them with freemium subscription products and the rest of the Windows Marketplace is similar. So this is tangentially-related to the article, but my point: very disappointed to see MS jumping on the modern business model for software.

TedShiller 5y ago

That’s why there’s Apple

aceArtGmbH 5y ago
so you want to install the proprietary Safari browser which isn't even available for any OS other than MacOS?

TedShiller 5y ago

People still use Windows? I thought that was a 90s thing

pbhjpbhj 5y ago
Apparently their next version will be ready for desktop use, they just need to add some super basic features (pin-to-top?) to their WM and they're there. Next year could finally be the year they're ready for Windows to be good on desktops!
anakaine 5y ago
I'm unsure if you're being facetious or not, but >85% of the market is on Windows. https://hostingtribunal.com/blog/operating-systems-market-share/ https://hostingtribunal.com/blog/operating-systems-market-sh...
- TedShiller 5y ago
  True, dental offices use Windows. But I don't know many people who like computers who use Windows.

anonnyj 5y ago

Buy Now Pay Later is yet another pink tax

intricatedetail 5y ago

Please lobby your software provider to release Linux builds. I only use Windows because some software do not exist and don't work on Linux. If not for that I would have run Linux long time ago.

nunez 5y ago

Very telling of the financial state of the average American. Everyone is hawking interest-free monthly payments, usually through Klarna (which Microsoft Store partnered with, making this especially strange). Great tool if used responsibly, but given companies advertising increasingly expensive crap and how most Americans can't save $1,000, you know this will just increase the class of the permanently-indebted

freewilly1040 5y ago
It all depends on what these interest free payments are competing with. If it is credit cards, you could tell the story that consumers see through the ruse of credit cards and are looking for a better deal.

rkagerer 5y ago

Microsoft Edge’s Zip payments integration is already available in the Canary and Dev channels, and it will roll out to everyone in the stable release of Microsoft Edge 96 Edge 96 released to Stable channel two days ago. My prediction is blowback to this quintessentially stupid product decision will result in it getting pulled within the next few weeks and the firing or transition to a different unit of whatever moron approved this PR disaster.

kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
You misspelled “Promotion to Senior Product Manager.”

peanut_worm 5y ago

Wow I am shocked this is remotely legal. I don’t understand why the government isn’t doing something. They got in trouble for so much less for what they pulled in the 90s with IE.

FDSGSG 5y ago
What they did with IE might actually have been illegal, this is not.

timwaagh 5y ago

I'm guessing EU aren't going to like this. Microsoft might not be the primary browser vendor anymore but this still is similar to stuff they've already been sued for. Also I figure that such a focus on retail shopping might annoy their enterprise customers. Like what are their employees going to do all day. If you ask Microsoft it's spending their ssalary (and getting into debt),not doing their job.

ineptech 5y ago

Jesus Christ! Even for M$, this is beyond the pale - combining pseudo-monopoly power, dark UX patterns, and high-interest credit. What's next, will airlines start dropping adverts for payday loans when their flight path goes over a poor neighborhood? It seems like we are in the "extending credit to broke people is so lucrative that regular non-finance companies are getting in on it" stage of the current bubble.

mgh2 5y ago
Isn't this Affirm business model?

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

> There are no interest fees, assuming you pay each installment on time. Which means they almost certainly make their revenue on payday-loan style shafting if you miss a payment.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago

Advertising payment processors is ok behaviour by Microsoft but attempting to make Windows actually respect the users default browser choice is "improper" behaviour by Mozilla[0][1]. Interesting mental gymnastics Microsoft. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/15/22782802/microsoft-block-edgedeflector-windows-11 https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/15/22782802/microsoft-block... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29251210 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29251210

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

mrtweetyhack 5y ago

Buy now, pay never

maybenotafart 5y ago

I dont trust it.

siproprio 5y ago

They also purposefully changed some settings in my machine to suck even more of my data. The more time I spend on edge, the more I hate microsoft.

devops000 5y ago

It should be illegal to incentivize consumer people to take loan.

charles_f 5y ago

I'm on the fence on this one. I don't like how the feature is pushed "in your face" like that. And at the same time, I trust Microsoft more than the average nowadays company to be respectful of privacy and my data - albeit the average is low and this is a low standard to achieve. If you don't make money out of selling your customer's data, then you need to find ways to actually collect money from them. The how it's been done is disgusting, but I think I'm aligned with the why.