19 ms·

Thanks! I am not qualified enough to know a good answer either. Albeit I have alternative thoughts for some points you have made, you seem to know this better

Thanks! I am not qualified enough to know a good answer either. Albeit I have alternative thoughts for some points you have made, you seem to know this better than I do.

throwaway211116 5y ago
I'd like to hear your points. I am curious of your viewpoint.
- throwaway_sjfgd 5y ago
  To start with, I'll reiterate that I am not qualified enough here, and you seem to know more than me. :) Since you asked still, below is my current understanding: 1. Biological evolution itself depends on spreading of genes. So the big picture cannot be an evolutionary path where having more than one partner is less optimal, whether for reasons of STD or otherwise*. Unless it is so bad that had we not picked up on monogamy, the homo sapiens population may have phased out altogether. Most species are continuing to live by nature, do not follow monogamy and are still thriving. May be we have increased our average lifespan by mitigating STD via monogamy practices, while the lifespan of animals continues at the baseline. * I have read and noted in other comments here that emotional love between men and women lasts for about seven years. I suspect that nature purposely evolved us this way to keep the parents together when the children are very young, and once children are sufficiently grown up, the parents open themselves up to new partners. 2. In the modern times, we are more capable of solving such a challenge than we were in the ancient times. Surely, COVID challenged us, however, we have made it work out overall. (No disrespect intended for the people who have lost loved ones, suffered on health, finances, or otherwise.) If monogamy is to be taken out, more precautions would naturally come in to compensate for a negative impact of STD. We however did not have provisions for such precautions in the ancient times. 3. Likewise, while the progress for vaccines may be slow, that would not have been if we did not have the practice of monogamy. In other words, if we were to redesign things for today, we may have worked the optimal solution to be non-monogamy plus vaccines. I have more thoughts to write.
  - throwaway211116 5y ago
    I do agree with 1 and I believe the influence was subtle. I also believe it might have depended on a lot of factors. Maybe some tribes were not near any animal reservoir. Maybe some diseases were transmitted due to injuries while hunting or while butchering meat. And maybe in some cases, this lead to disadvantages during inter-tribe wars. Maybe a infected tribe lost a war, their men killed and the women raped, resulting in infection of the victorious tribe and once symptoms appeared, some spiritually inclined member of the tribe blamed it on punishment for the rapes. I think it's hard to say for sure what the influence was. Probably the meme of monogamy developed as a set of superstitions initially. I think STDs would have played a role in this early stage. According to (1) at least 3 diseases originate form animal reservoir. Once the meme of Judaism and its fork Christianity (which merges Greek values - ancient Greece and Rome were monogamous) was on the scene it was almost certainly the greatest factor in spreading the meme of monogamy. I think by the time of antiquity, STDs were no longer the main factor in spreading the meme of monogamy. Wikipedia has a nice list of historic or current communities where polygamy was the norm. I also find your speculation about the average duration of emotional love, plausible. I wholeheartedly agree with 2 with the small note that theoretically we could have had it easier. I am not sure I agree with 3. Overall medicine is a very recent development. I am not sure what are the circumstances that would have enabled us to develop science and medicine significantly earlier. Also, not sure if lack of monogamy would motivate research today but probably would to a statistically relevant degree. The relationship the public and the state have with scientific research is complicated and changes over time. There is certainly a claim that there is a link between the rise of dating apps and a rise of STDs. I do not know if there are actual studies to prove this. It may be just speculation and moral panic. Theoretically this uptick might lead to more funds being directed towards finding cures. Heteronormative monogamy definitely played a role in delaying research of treatments for HIV. (1) “Two or three of the major STIs [in humans] have come from animals. We know, for example, that gonorrhoea came from cattle to humans. Syphilis also came to humans from cattle or sheep many centuries ago, possibly sexually”. The most recent and deadliest STI to have crossed the barrier separating humans and animals has been HIV, which humans got from the simian version of the virus in chimpanzees. https://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/news/staff-blog/sti-day/ https://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/news/staff-bl...

Thanks! I am not qualified enough to know a good answer either. Albeit I have alternative thoughts for some points you have made, you seem to know this better than I do.

throwaway211116 5y ago

I'd like to hear your points. I am curious of your viewpoint.

throwaway_sjfgd 5y ago
To start with, I'll reiterate that I am not qualified enough here, and you seem to know more than me. :) Since you asked still, below is my current understanding: 1. Biological evolution itself depends on spreading of genes. So the big picture cannot be an evolutionary path where having more than one partner is less optimal, whether for reasons of STD or otherwise*. Unless it is so bad that had we not picked up on monogamy, the homo sapiens population may have phased out altogether. Most species are continuing to live by nature, do not follow monogamy and are still thriving. May be we have increased our average lifespan by mitigating STD via monogamy practices, while the lifespan of animals continues at the baseline. * I have read and noted in other comments here that emotional love between men and women lasts for about seven years. I suspect that nature purposely evolved us this way to keep the parents together when the children are very young, and once children are sufficiently grown up, the parents open themselves up to new partners. 2. In the modern times, we are more capable of solving such a challenge than we were in the ancient times. Surely, COVID challenged us, however, we have made it work out overall. (No disrespect intended for the people who have lost loved ones, suffered on health, finances, or otherwise.) If monogamy is to be taken out, more precautions would naturally come in to compensate for a negative impact of STD. We however did not have provisions for such precautions in the ancient times. 3. Likewise, while the progress for vaccines may be slow, that would not have been if we did not have the practice of monogamy. In other words, if we were to redesign things for today, we may have worked the optimal solution to be non-monogamy plus vaccines. I have more thoughts to write.
- throwaway211116 5y ago
  I do agree with 1 and I believe the influence was subtle. I also believe it might have depended on a lot of factors. Maybe some tribes were not near any animal reservoir. Maybe some diseases were transmitted due to injuries while hunting or while butchering meat. And maybe in some cases, this lead to disadvantages during inter-tribe wars. Maybe a infected tribe lost a war, their men killed and the women raped, resulting in infection of the victorious tribe and once symptoms appeared, some spiritually inclined member of the tribe blamed it on punishment for the rapes. I think it's hard to say for sure what the influence was. Probably the meme of monogamy developed as a set of superstitions initially. I think STDs would have played a role in this early stage. According to (1) at least 3 diseases originate form animal reservoir. Once the meme of Judaism and its fork Christianity (which merges Greek values - ancient Greece and Rome were monogamous) was on the scene it was almost certainly the greatest factor in spreading the meme of monogamy. I think by the time of antiquity, STDs were no longer the main factor in spreading the meme of monogamy. Wikipedia has a nice list of historic or current communities where polygamy was the norm. I also find your speculation about the average duration of emotional love, plausible. I wholeheartedly agree with 2 with the small note that theoretically we could have had it easier. I am not sure I agree with 3. Overall medicine is a very recent development. I am not sure what are the circumstances that would have enabled us to develop science and medicine significantly earlier. Also, not sure if lack of monogamy would motivate research today but probably would to a statistically relevant degree. The relationship the public and the state have with scientific research is complicated and changes over time. There is certainly a claim that there is a link between the rise of dating apps and a rise of STDs. I do not know if there are actual studies to prove this. It may be just speculation and moral panic. Theoretically this uptick might lead to more funds being directed towards finding cures. Heteronormative monogamy definitely played a role in delaying research of treatments for HIV. (1) “Two or three of the major STIs [in humans] have come from animals. We know, for example, that gonorrhoea came from cattle to humans. Syphilis also came to humans from cattle or sheep many centuries ago, possibly sexually”. The most recent and deadliest STI to have crossed the barrier separating humans and animals has been HIV, which humans got from the simian version of the virus in chimpanzees. https://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/news/staff-blog/sti-day/ https://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/news/staff-bl...