8 ms·

The Burnout Society is probably one of the most amazing books I’ve ever read. I tried to crystalise its essence as well [1], in a chapter-structure way. The bo

The Burnout Society is probably one of the most amazing books I’ve ever read. I tried to crystalise its essence as well [1], in a chapter-structure way. The book talks about many things that were on the edge of my eyes. I knew them, yet I hadn't realised they were there; that they were a thing. I hadn't realised it was us who introduced them. This is the definition of Castoriadis' imaginary [2][3]. I'd recommend The Burnout Society to everyone yet I hesitate because it challenges very foundational ideas, in an unpopular way as well. Maybe the book's two things that struck out to me the most are: * We strive for achievement so much that we tire ourselves to depression * Burnout and depression are intrinsically connected And the question that I ask myself after having read the book is: How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset? [1] https://nutcroft.com/blog/book-the-burnout-society-by-byung-chul-han/ https://nutcroft.com/blog/book-the-burnout-society-by-byung-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_(sociology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_(sociology) [3] https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/imaginary-institution-society https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/imaginary-institution-society

winternett 5y ago
Cities are like a wall that block people off from viewing the true reality of life... They put huge buildings up that create "bosses" and "corporate culture" and "stores" which all feed being over worked and the ideals of constant desire for more (consumerism). You can only work in a city if you adopt the mindset, which truly is "grind till you die" to your detriment. People need to burnout in order to fuel a world like ours, it's no different than in the past. Some would say there are simply "too many people on this earth" to escape the constant drive for workplace-related abuse, social inequality, criminal behavior, and injustice when people are tightly packed into cities unfortunately. You realize a different way of living when you escape the city and live in a less populated environment that fosters more of what really matters - Family, Health, Creativity, Communication, Mental Well Being, Nature, and Less of a Competitive/Combative Enviornment. Once you visit other (more rural and natural) places where people live in communities, where the pace is much more slow, like farms, mountains, beaches etc, most thoughtful people pause and realize that none of the "concrete jungle" accomplishments really matter in terms of life merits. Unfortunately, the poor and working classes rarely if ever have a chance to escape on a vacation, so they are burdened most by burnout... That burnout feeds bad things like suicide, drug abuse, poverty, depression, crime, etc, while the rest of society simply remains ignorant to the root causes of those things. Not to say that those rural and natural places are perfect to live in, but they allow for less distraction from meaningful life goals in many ways over city environments. Many (wealthier middle class) people occasionally get to take that nature vacation at points in their life, and then later return to the city grind, hoping to recapture the vibe in retirement, but they forget the true motivation as they get behind the city walls again often. The super-wealthy buy homes in relaxed environments at their whim... And many even work in the city without leaving their super comfortable beach and mountain "vacation" houses. Some would say that's one of the major reasons they often think far beyond the constraints of their (less paid) employees who live in the city and work in the city office... Not because they are "smarter" it's possibly because they are far more often less "mentally distracted" and weighted down by finances, work commutes, and burnout culture of city living.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  > Family, Health, Creativity, Communication, Mental Well Being, Nature, and Less of a Competitive/Combative Enviornment Except for Nature, many of us find these things more easily in a city than a rural environment.
  - winternett 5y ago
    A whole lot of other factors come into play in that statement. Your current age. Your current socio/economic/financial position in life. Whether you are single or married. If you have children or not. Where exactly you live. How much you really rely on things related in a city. My statement was geared towards one's life over it's entire span, rather than being geared towards the current point we're each at in life... When I was younger, I greatly enjoyed living in the city despite all the expense and other issues like crime and close proximity to neighbors. As I grew older, a more quiet (suburban, but close enough to the city) life began to seduce me... Not saying it as concrete fact, but if you really talk to a wide range of people in older age, it's a recurring trend.
- piyh 5y ago
  >where the pace is much more slow, like farms You're thinking of a very idealized farm.
- agent008t 5y ago
  Is substance abuse not more common in the more rural communities though? Is it not just a 'grass is greener' effect?
  - winternett 5y ago
    I'm not a data scientist nor working in health care, but my personal opinion leans towards drug abuse being more related/linked to a person's personal experiences, upbringing, and social and economic conditions rather than primarily being linked to where they live. Both rich and poor statistically are represented in terms of drug abuse, the consequences for drug abuse are often more severe for abuse if one is on the less affluent side though (enforcement-wise and health-wise in a historical sense).
alexpetralia 5y ago
Surprisingly, I find answers to many of these questions in Fight Club. "Stop trying to control everything, and just let go."
- tck42 5y ago
  I'd note that this was advice given by the antagonist to the protagonist, so that the protagonist would _willingly_ give up his existence to the antagonist.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    Hum... At some point he did, and let go of the antagonist too. As far as the movie makes some sense, it's very strongly into finding balance.
l33tbro 5y ago
> And the question that I ask myself after having read the book is: How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset? I always read him as saying that the valuing of achievement itself comes from the depression/burnout society he observes in his native South Korea. Ie, we only obsess over achievement in the first place because society is so stratified and the stakes are so high if you fail. I think he overall has a distaste for what he calls the 'achievement subject', and is more aligned with people like Baudrilliard in favouring individuation through developing a contemplative and very singular personal identity.
opx9 5y ago
Speak for yourself. Dont use the word 'we'. "We" dont strive for achievement. There is a small group with certain specific biological and psychological traits that does. Their energy and drive gets the whole chimp troupe stampeding in one direction or another. These biological, personality traits aren't going to be stripped out of the human population any time soon. So you just have to recognize who you are and who you choose to deal with so you dont get stuck in traps. Learning takes Time.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Those people usually have a sympathetic wealthy dad too. It's not real easy to be a maverick when you are barely getting by, and have 0 safety net. Those two meathead sons of the president come to mind. And every financially successful kid in my high school, and college, had a ton of unspoken family help. I clench up when I hear these Type A traits are biological.
- tuyguntn 5y ago
  I think parent OP used "we" very much correctly, don't try to isolate some people's impact on society. We all enjoyed when Jeff Bezos delivered our products faster to our homes. We enjoyed when our food is delivered from any restaurant we asked, we enjoyed traveling to other places and generating CO2 along the way. And do you know why we enjoyed them? Because those people who strive for achievements worked really hard to create these conveniences for us, for some of them there was no personal life, working nights, no family, just career! And they achieved what they wanted. Now they demand from everyone such dedication. Hence some companies (employees to be exact) are creating hidden rules not to promote people with kids, because at some point they might not be as productive as 21 years who just graduated, with lots of energy to burn and cheap to employ. People don't want to have kids because they might distract from their career. Now our society has problems, pollution, low wages, homelessness, burned out people, because not everyone can perform on their peers level without kids, without personal life and so on And "we" who don't strive for achievement didn't stop them.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    You are twisting words quite a bit. I very much belong to 'the other' tribe of not giving a nanofraction of a fuck about some of these 'achievements' pushed on us, done by people who don't get the concept and urgency of work-life balance. No amazon prime deliveries? In fact, no Amazon deliveries in Switzerland that make any sense? We get by just fine. We don't order food from restaurants, it negates the very reason why to go to restaurant in the first place, the social experience is just not there. I can cook +-comparably well and actually enjoy the process. And so on. I have myself mapped extremely well thanks to long term involvement with some extreme sports, backpacking around the globe and few times use of psilocybin in the right setting. I know exactly what makes me tick and what is superficial shallow BS, and what you describe is right there. Again, achievements you describe as some holy grail of mankind mean next to nothing. My wife is a doctor, exactly same story - she can tell you all evening about true respectable achievements, and none of it is about some engineer figuring slightly more effective way for business to deliver. And don't drag the topic into 'you didn't stop this from happening!' - we are adults, and responsible for our own development and life paths. Don't expect me or anybody else to babysit you and set your life straight to get happy and fulfilled life. If you won't, no guidebook nor internet course, nor aging itself will. Get your own shit together and do it yourself to be more precise.
fennecfoxen 5y ago
I suspect the reviewer, and your comment, and probably the author, are wrong to broadly characterize burnout as something that we encounter as "achievement-subjects" but not as "obedience-subjects", or as you put it, because we "strive for achievement." While some may burn out working too hard with the idea they will achieve by doing so, surely many others are burned out by being over-worked at a tough job, with an unsympathetic boss, a "death march" culture promising career advancement that never comes, and what-have-you.
- emteycz 5y ago
  Burnout also isn't limited to work, I got it from school.
  - Damogran6 5y ago
    Just because you pay for the privilege, doesn’t mean it’s not a job.
    - seoulbran 5y ago
      Ding
    - the_af 5y ago
      You can get burned out at free public schools. Here in Argentina the best university is free and open to everyone -- and believe me, you can get very stressed because it's also very demanding.
    - InitialLastName 5y ago
      I've seen people burn out on volunteer work. Lots of institutions are carefully calibrated to extract as much effort from their constituents as the costs allow.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  That's an excellent point. I can feel burnout creeping in not because I'm pushing to achieve but just because of the stress required to tread water.
jseban 5y ago
And if you remove the strive for achievement, people still get depressed because of lack of purpose and meaning.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset? First, let go of this need that you have to achieve things. You try and keep up with others, to be better than others, but it's OK to be mediocre. Counterpoint though, in today's economy, people are forced to achieve and push for higher wages, just to keep a roof over their head. That's another source of stress and worry, and that's down to government and international economic policy to solve.
- junga 5y ago
  > […] but it's OK to be mediocre. Being worse is pretty ok also!
- wombatpm 5y ago
  The Underachiever's Manifesto: The Guide to Accomplishing Little and Feeling Great by Ray Bennett
- mlac 5y ago
  It was really hard for me to be OK with being mediocre. In anything. And it’s not that I’m competitive with others - primarily I’m hard on myself and looking to beat my own performance. Realizing it was OK to suck and to do things for fun really opened up some hobbies. But I couldn’t imagine showing up for 40+ hours a week and being mediocre. That would burn me out because I’d be using skills or doing a job outside of my natural ability and seeing mediocre results. I’d keep looking until I found a role that a) paid the bills and b) used enough of my education or talent to be at least good with a moderate level of effort.
dnautics 5y ago
> How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset At the risk of sounding pithy, "make it about the journey" set a vague goal of being successful, identify key strategies you think will get you there ("excellence"), and take pleasure in figuring it out, find reward in the incremental stages and don't sweat it when you stumble.
- mylons 5y ago
  chop wood, carry water. this is inherently hard in a world of performance reviews, and corporate ladders to climb. especially when it’s heavily implied that you need to advance or move on.
  - hunter-gatherer 5y ago
    At my last job I gave myself a 3/5 ("acceptable") rating across the board on all self eval performance objectives. In the comments I thought I had made it clear that I did exactly what was required and nothing more or less. I also motioned that I had no interest in advancing my career from where I was at. I ended up on some sort of remedial training and career progression plan that onlt added hours to my work. Haha
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      No matter what management says, they never want to hear the truth.
      - Nasrudith 5y ago
        That unfortunately applies to management in non-literal hierarchical sense whether voters, work of high hope no talents who expect success to be just one step away, or telling friends that their new romantic relationship is toxic and self-destructive. Societies have long had hypocrisy problems with honesty globally and frankly probably in prehistory and precivilization as well given how little humanity has fundamentally changed. Rven with our vast accumulation of knowledge over time. Honesty just isn't selected for in an "evolutionary" system. It comes down to a true but unsatisfying tautology that things which survive better wind up being more common, especially when those things create more of themselves.
bsedlm 5y ago
> How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset? I ask myself something quite similar but coming from a different place (so to say). How can I practice detachment (buddhism inspired letting go) while simultaneously accomplishing goals? I ask myself this because I see a relation between holding on (firmly grasping a goal; the opposite of detachment) and the perseverance of success at doing difficult things. In my own experience it remains a fact that if I hold on on to something tightly, this is why I suffer (painful); there's a truth behind "no pain no gain". However this is quite close to "them who don't try don't fail"... so they don't suffer BUT do not really accomplish anything either. Finally, I don't consider the ego to be inherently bad, it's a tool. IMO a problem with it is that one's self is not the only one capable of using one's ego (e.g. we all have been manipulated by someone else).
- np- 5y ago
  > How can I practice detachment (buddhism inspired letting go) while simultaneously accomplishing goals? I think this is somewhat addressed in Hinduism -- the thing you need to realize is that there is your Self, and there is your Role, and those are two entirely separate things. Your Role might be "spouse" or "child" or "software engineer" or "soldier in an army." (not trying to assign any particular morality to a role). Your true Self is entirely independent of that. It is incumbent on you to perform your role to the standards expected, but it's also just a subsystem that exists within your greater Self, it is _not_ equivalent to your self. To find a role, you need to think about unmet needs in the universe. The role you perform is not about you and your self, but it is about something much greater. Buuuut that doesn't necessarily address motivation - what if we're fine just wanting nothing and sitting around all day just wanting that nothing. The way that is typically addressed in Eastern religion is to actually make that into a virtue - sure, if you want to sit around and self-actualize all day then go ahead and do it, you will be one of the greatest saints ever to live. But that's the catch--it's _way_ harder than it sounds. Generally most of us will get bored at some point, and that boredom will drive us to look at the fuller picture of the universe.
- handrous 5y ago
  > How can I practice detachment (buddhism inspired letting go) while simultaneously accomplishing goals? I'd say that: 1) There's a reason for all the insistence on monasticism in Buddhism and many other traditions. Practicing otherwise is doing it on ultra-hard mode. You're unlikely to become A Buddha while having a family and 9-5 job, and that's just how things are. You can't have everything. 2) However—actions are inextricable from successful practice, I think, even in lay-practice. You can't think your way to enlightenment, you have to live it, and not just when you're meditating. And that's the hard part! Not all the reading, the listening, the meditating, the thinking. The doing. As Marcus Aurelius put it (quoting from memory, but quite close): "One can live one's life in a calm flow of happiness, if one learns to think the right way and act the right way" (emphasis mine). The thinking is the easy part. Acting in support of and in harmony with this blissful state, in the world, despite the necessary state of detachment is and always has been the hard part. That's why you can't just Do Buddhism (or anything remotely similar) from books and some part-time meditating. I think the tension & contradictions between detachment and action is why it's so difficult—impossible, even—to record on paper what a state of complete enlightenment is in any way that fully covers it all on its own. You can't write the differential equation describing it. At best, you can just vaguely gesture in the correct direction. (note: I am quite bad at the "and act the right way" part myself, so could be entirely wrong about all of this)
bakuninsbart 5y ago
> * We strive for achievement so much that we tire ourselves to depression That resonates with me quite a lot, as I fell into this trap too many times, and am currently in the process of getting out once again. Being stressed out and anxious makes me depressed, which makes me unproductive, which then reinforces the stress and anxiety. While you are in it, it is also difficult to take a step back and reflect on how this isn't a very smart way of doing things.

winternett 5y ago

Cities are like a wall that block people off from viewing the true reality of life... They put huge buildings up that create "bosses" and "corporate culture" and "stores" which all feed being over worked and the ideals of constant desire for more (consumerism). You can only work in a city if you adopt the mindset, which truly is "grind till you die" to your detriment. People need to burnout in order to fuel a world like ours, it's no different than in the past. Some would say there are simply "too many people on this earth" to escape the constant drive for workplace-related abuse, social inequality, criminal behavior, and injustice when people are tightly packed into cities unfortunately. You realize a different way of living when you escape the city and live in a less populated environment that fosters more of what really matters - Family, Health, Creativity, Communication, Mental Well Being, Nature, and Less of a Competitive/Combative Enviornment. Once you visit other (more rural and natural) places where people live in communities, where the pace is much more slow, like farms, mountains, beaches etc, most thoughtful people pause and realize that none of the "concrete jungle" accomplishments really matter in terms of life merits. Unfortunately, the poor and working classes rarely if ever have a chance to escape on a vacation, so they are burdened most by burnout... That burnout feeds bad things like suicide, drug abuse, poverty, depression, crime, etc, while the rest of society simply remains ignorant to the root causes of those things. Not to say that those rural and natural places are perfect to live in, but they allow for less distraction from meaningful life goals in many ways over city environments. Many (wealthier middle class) people occasionally get to take that nature vacation at points in their life, and then later return to the city grind, hoping to recapture the vibe in retirement, but they forget the true motivation as they get behind the city walls again often. The super-wealthy buy homes in relaxed environments at their whim... And many even work in the city without leaving their super comfortable beach and mountain "vacation" houses. Some would say that's one of the major reasons they often think far beyond the constraints of their (less paid) employees who live in the city and work in the city office... Not because they are "smarter" it's possibly because they are far more often less "mentally distracted" and weighted down by finances, work commutes, and burnout culture of city living.

jimbokun 5y ago
> Family, Health, Creativity, Communication, Mental Well Being, Nature, and Less of a Competitive/Combative Enviornment Except for Nature, many of us find these things more easily in a city than a rural environment.
- winternett 5y ago
  A whole lot of other factors come into play in that statement. Your current age. Your current socio/economic/financial position in life. Whether you are single or married. If you have children or not. Where exactly you live. How much you really rely on things related in a city. My statement was geared towards one's life over it's entire span, rather than being geared towards the current point we're each at in life... When I was younger, I greatly enjoyed living in the city despite all the expense and other issues like crime and close proximity to neighbors. As I grew older, a more quiet (suburban, but close enough to the city) life began to seduce me... Not saying it as concrete fact, but if you really talk to a wide range of people in older age, it's a recurring trend.
piyh 5y ago
>where the pace is much more slow, like farms You're thinking of a very idealized farm.
agent008t 5y ago
Is substance abuse not more common in the more rural communities though? Is it not just a 'grass is greener' effect?
- winternett 5y ago
  I'm not a data scientist nor working in health care, but my personal opinion leans towards drug abuse being more related/linked to a person's personal experiences, upbringing, and social and economic conditions rather than primarily being linked to where they live. Both rich and poor statistically are represented in terms of drug abuse, the consequences for drug abuse are often more severe for abuse if one is on the less affluent side though (enforcement-wise and health-wise in a historical sense).

alexpetralia 5y ago

Surprisingly, I find answers to many of these questions in Fight Club. "Stop trying to control everything, and just let go."

tck42 5y ago
I'd note that this was advice given by the antagonist to the protagonist, so that the protagonist would _willingly_ give up his existence to the antagonist.
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  Hum... At some point he did, and let go of the antagonist too. As far as the movie makes some sense, it's very strongly into finding balance.

l33tbro 5y ago

> And the question that I ask myself after having read the book is: How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset? I always read him as saying that the valuing of achievement itself comes from the depression/burnout society he observes in his native South Korea. Ie, we only obsess over achievement in the first place because society is so stratified and the stakes are so high if you fail. I think he overall has a distaste for what he calls the 'achievement subject', and is more aligned with people like Baudrilliard in favouring individuation through developing a contemplative and very singular personal identity.

opx9 5y ago

Speak for yourself. Dont use the word 'we'. "We" dont strive for achievement. There is a small group with certain specific biological and psychological traits that does. Their energy and drive gets the whole chimp troupe stampeding in one direction or another. These biological, personality traits aren't going to be stripped out of the human population any time soon. So you just have to recognize who you are and who you choose to deal with so you dont get stuck in traps. Learning takes Time.

hellbannedguy 5y ago
Those people usually have a sympathetic wealthy dad too. It's not real easy to be a maverick when you are barely getting by, and have 0 safety net. Those two meathead sons of the president come to mind. And every financially successful kid in my high school, and college, had a ton of unspoken family help. I clench up when I hear these Type A traits are biological.
tuyguntn 5y ago
I think parent OP used "we" very much correctly, don't try to isolate some people's impact on society. We all enjoyed when Jeff Bezos delivered our products faster to our homes. We enjoyed when our food is delivered from any restaurant we asked, we enjoyed traveling to other places and generating CO2 along the way. And do you know why we enjoyed them? Because those people who strive for achievements worked really hard to create these conveniences for us, for some of them there was no personal life, working nights, no family, just career! And they achieved what they wanted. Now they demand from everyone such dedication. Hence some companies (employees to be exact) are creating hidden rules not to promote people with kids, because at some point they might not be as productive as 21 years who just graduated, with lots of energy to burn and cheap to employ. People don't want to have kids because they might distract from their career. Now our society has problems, pollution, low wages, homelessness, burned out people, because not everyone can perform on their peers level without kids, without personal life and so on And "we" who don't strive for achievement didn't stop them.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  You are twisting words quite a bit. I very much belong to 'the other' tribe of not giving a nanofraction of a fuck about some of these 'achievements' pushed on us, done by people who don't get the concept and urgency of work-life balance. No amazon prime deliveries? In fact, no Amazon deliveries in Switzerland that make any sense? We get by just fine. We don't order food from restaurants, it negates the very reason why to go to restaurant in the first place, the social experience is just not there. I can cook +-comparably well and actually enjoy the process. And so on. I have myself mapped extremely well thanks to long term involvement with some extreme sports, backpacking around the globe and few times use of psilocybin in the right setting. I know exactly what makes me tick and what is superficial shallow BS, and what you describe is right there. Again, achievements you describe as some holy grail of mankind mean next to nothing. My wife is a doctor, exactly same story - she can tell you all evening about true respectable achievements, and none of it is about some engineer figuring slightly more effective way for business to deliver. And don't drag the topic into 'you didn't stop this from happening!' - we are adults, and responsible for our own development and life paths. Don't expect me or anybody else to babysit you and set your life straight to get happy and fulfilled life. If you won't, no guidebook nor internet course, nor aging itself will. Get your own shit together and do it yourself to be more precise.

fennecfoxen 5y ago

I suspect the reviewer, and your comment, and probably the author, are wrong to broadly characterize burnout as something that we encounter as "achievement-subjects" but not as "obedience-subjects", or as you put it, because we "strive for achievement." While some may burn out working too hard with the idea they will achieve by doing so, surely many others are burned out by being over-worked at a tough job, with an unsympathetic boss, a "death march" culture promising career advancement that never comes, and what-have-you.

emteycz 5y ago
Burnout also isn't limited to work, I got it from school.
- Damogran6 5y ago
  Just because you pay for the privilege, doesn’t mean it’s not a job.
  - seoulbran 5y ago
    Ding
  - the_af 5y ago
    You can get burned out at free public schools. Here in Argentina the best university is free and open to everyone -- and believe me, you can get very stressed because it's also very demanding.
  - InitialLastName 5y ago
    I've seen people burn out on volunteer work. Lots of institutions are carefully calibrated to extract as much effort from their constituents as the costs allow.
SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
That's an excellent point. I can feel burnout creeping in not because I'm pushing to achieve but just because of the stress required to tread water.

jseban 5y ago

And if you remove the strive for achievement, people still get depressed because of lack of purpose and meaning.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

> How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset? First, let go of this need that you have to achieve things. You try and keep up with others, to be better than others, but it's OK to be mediocre. Counterpoint though, in today's economy, people are forced to achieve and push for higher wages, just to keep a roof over their head. That's another source of stress and worry, and that's down to government and international economic policy to solve.

junga 5y ago
> […] but it's OK to be mediocre. Being worse is pretty ok also!
wombatpm 5y ago
The Underachiever's Manifesto: The Guide to Accomplishing Little and Feeling Great by Ray Bennett
mlac 5y ago
It was really hard for me to be OK with being mediocre. In anything. And it’s not that I’m competitive with others - primarily I’m hard on myself and looking to beat my own performance. Realizing it was OK to suck and to do things for fun really opened up some hobbies. But I couldn’t imagine showing up for 40+ hours a week and being mediocre. That would burn me out because I’d be using skills or doing a job outside of my natural ability and seeing mediocre results. I’d keep looking until I found a role that a) paid the bills and b) used enough of my education or talent to be at least good with a moderate level of effort.

dnautics 5y ago

> How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset At the risk of sounding pithy, "make it about the journey" set a vague goal of being successful, identify key strategies you think will get you there ("excellence"), and take pleasure in figuring it out, find reward in the incremental stages and don't sweat it when you stumble.

mylons 5y ago
chop wood, carry water. this is inherently hard in a world of performance reviews, and corporate ladders to climb. especially when it’s heavily implied that you need to advance or move on.
- hunter-gatherer 5y ago
  At my last job I gave myself a 3/5 ("acceptable") rating across the board on all self eval performance objectives. In the comments I thought I had made it clear that I did exactly what was required and nothing more or less. I also motioned that I had no interest in advancing my career from where I was at. I ended up on some sort of remedial training and career progression plan that onlt added hours to my work. Haha
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    No matter what management says, they never want to hear the truth.
    - Nasrudith 5y ago
      That unfortunately applies to management in non-literal hierarchical sense whether voters, work of high hope no talents who expect success to be just one step away, or telling friends that their new romantic relationship is toxic and self-destructive. Societies have long had hypocrisy problems with honesty globally and frankly probably in prehistory and precivilization as well given how little humanity has fundamentally changed. Rven with our vast accumulation of knowledge over time. Honesty just isn't selected for in an "evolutionary" system. It comes down to a true but unsatisfying tautology that things which survive better wind up being more common, especially when those things create more of themselves.

bsedlm 5y ago

> How can we achieve things with no burnout or ego-driven mindset? I ask myself something quite similar but coming from a different place (so to say). How can I practice detachment (buddhism inspired letting go) while simultaneously accomplishing goals? I ask myself this because I see a relation between holding on (firmly grasping a goal; the opposite of detachment) and the perseverance of success at doing difficult things. In my own experience it remains a fact that if I hold on on to something tightly, this is why I suffer (painful); there's a truth behind "no pain no gain". However this is quite close to "them who don't try don't fail"... so they don't suffer BUT do not really accomplish anything either. Finally, I don't consider the ego to be inherently bad, it's a tool. IMO a problem with it is that one's self is not the only one capable of using one's ego (e.g. we all have been manipulated by someone else).

np- 5y ago
> How can I practice detachment (buddhism inspired letting go) while simultaneously accomplishing goals? I think this is somewhat addressed in Hinduism -- the thing you need to realize is that there is your Self, and there is your Role, and those are two entirely separate things. Your Role might be "spouse" or "child" or "software engineer" or "soldier in an army." (not trying to assign any particular morality to a role). Your true Self is entirely independent of that. It is incumbent on you to perform your role to the standards expected, but it's also just a subsystem that exists within your greater Self, it is _not_ equivalent to your self. To find a role, you need to think about unmet needs in the universe. The role you perform is not about you and your self, but it is about something much greater. Buuuut that doesn't necessarily address motivation - what if we're fine just wanting nothing and sitting around all day just wanting that nothing. The way that is typically addressed in Eastern religion is to actually make that into a virtue - sure, if you want to sit around and self-actualize all day then go ahead and do it, you will be one of the greatest saints ever to live. But that's the catch--it's _way_ harder than it sounds. Generally most of us will get bored at some point, and that boredom will drive us to look at the fuller picture of the universe.
handrous 5y ago
> How can I practice detachment (buddhism inspired letting go) while simultaneously accomplishing goals? I'd say that: 1) There's a reason for all the insistence on monasticism in Buddhism and many other traditions. Practicing otherwise is doing it on ultra-hard mode. You're unlikely to become A Buddha while having a family and 9-5 job, and that's just how things are. You can't have everything. 2) However—actions are inextricable from successful practice, I think, even in lay-practice. You can't think your way to enlightenment, you have to live it, and not just when you're meditating. And that's the hard part! Not all the reading, the listening, the meditating, the thinking. The doing. As Marcus Aurelius put it (quoting from memory, but quite close): "One can live one's life in a calm flow of happiness, if one learns to think the right way and act the right way" (emphasis mine). The thinking is the easy part. Acting in support of and in harmony with this blissful state, in the world, despite the necessary state of detachment is and always has been the hard part. That's why you can't just Do Buddhism (or anything remotely similar) from books and some part-time meditating. I think the tension & contradictions between detachment and action is why it's so difficult—impossible, even—to record on paper what a state of complete enlightenment is in any way that fully covers it all on its own. You can't write the differential equation describing it. At best, you can just vaguely gesture in the correct direction. (note: I am quite bad at the "and act the right way" part myself, so could be entirely wrong about all of this)

bakuninsbart 5y ago

> * We strive for achievement so much that we tire ourselves to depression That resonates with me quite a lot, as I fell into this trap too many times, and am currently in the process of getting out once again. Being stressed out and anxious makes me depressed, which makes me unproductive, which then reinforces the stress and anxiety. While you are in it, it is also difficult to take a step back and reflect on how this isn't a very smart way of doing things.