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As a divorced man, I can attest to this wholeheartedly. There's an energy a man gets when you're building a family that helps motivate through the struggle. Whe

As a divorced man, I can attest to this wholeheartedly. There's an energy a man gets when you're building a family that helps motivate through the struggle. When you get divorced, especially when kids are involved, there's an expectation in our society (court system, social pressure, etc) to continue life as if that energy still exists, it simply doesn't. It's maddening. Breaking up a family is lose-lose. There are no winners, but men are the biggest losers.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
shijie 5y ago
I’m going through this right now. I’ve done everything I could to try and save the marriage. My spouse is on the warpath. We have a 2 year-old daughter. I would be willing to work on myself and expect nothing in return for the rest of my life if it meant my daughter could go to the park with her mommy and daddy together. I cannot say the smallest part of how I feel. Unyielding personal torment and failure. Breaking up a family is truly lose-lose.
- yawnr 5y ago
  I’m so sorry you’re going through this. No matter what, you can still have a great life and be a great father, though. Maybe not as tidy, but still beautiful.
- bitexploder 5y ago
  I have stood by a couple of friends over the years that went through really tough divorces. When you have children and the divorce is mostly forced on you it is very tough. It does funny things, as the article says. I told my friend once, with more insight than I realized at the time, something like this: “this will break you or make you something of a philosopher.” To that end I like the Stoics. A lot is out of our control. Figure out what is in your control and do your best with them (Dichotomy of control). It’s a good starting point. Sorry your family must experience this.
  - tsol 5y ago
    That reminds me of a Socrates quote "By all means marry. If you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher."
    - bitexploder 5y ago
      Hah, you know, that is probably where that originated from in my brain. I read that quote a long time ago! Thank you :)
- mrsmee89 5y ago
  I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know the feeling well. Keeping my family together was my numero uno. It drove me mad. I put myself in incredibly vulnerable positions. The thought of my kids growing up without knowing the love that brought them into this world seemed unbearable. Looking back, while I was trying to keep my family together. She was trying to get the most out of our separation. Once I accepted that we weren't going to be a conventional family, I was able to see things with clarity. Accepting it is the hard part. If you're married to someone that has experienced being in an unconventional family then this will feel a lot more normal to them, which absolutely sucks. I really feel for you man.
- lelanthran 5y ago
  I've been through it, there's nothing you can do and if the mother is really out for blood she will use your child against you. Women get rights, men get obligations.
  - dang 5y ago
    I appreciate that you've been through a difficult experience. HN users are welcome to share their experiences here. However, it's not ok to translate the emotion from the experience into flamewar comments. That's the problem with this one: you swerved into generic gender war rhetoric. That's harmful and not ok here. Of course it can be very difficult not to leap from painful experience to dramatic generalization. But it's the sort of thing we all have to work on in order to have HN be the kind of community we're trying for: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
  - dlsa 5y ago
    When the child support ends a lot of power the state grants women to tear apart a mans life also evaporates. There's a possibility of a silver lining when child support ends. Divorced men need to remember that. Often times its the very start of men resuming a relationship with the children they've been blocked from seeing for all those years. If men comtemplating suicide could realise this and see it as the light at the end of the very dark tunnel then they might keep their faith in themselves and their future.
    - Damogran6 5y ago
      I think that’s a truism that more people need to hear… “This, too, shall pass.” I was struggling with identity and responsibility when the kids were young and and extremely helpful person on a forum told me that my life would not forever be “swamped husband supporting family with young kids”…or even “parents in a faily of four”…sure I’m still a father of two kids, but they’re off doing their own things and my relationship with my wife is a LOT more like the one I had as a couple, before being parents.
  - watwut 5y ago
    If men file for custody they get 50/50. Men who ask for full custody also statistically win more often. You are doing disservice to both kids and men when you tell them they cant have it.
- WhiteWalker2021 5y ago
  Sorry that you are going through this. Kids are super smart and can sense the energy very quickly. If mommy and daddy aren’t happy together, the kids will know, no matter how much you try to hide it. Also, if the parents aren’t getting along ..that isn’t a model of a good healthy relationship for the kids to experience either. Kids just need love and affection to grow into healthy and happy individuals. That love and care can exist even if the parents separated. Plus, you should choose yourself and your happiness too instead of compromising. Expecting nothing for the rest of your life isn’t a good value to pass on to your kids. Kids will like you and respect you more once they grow up if you choose yourself and your happiness! I totally understand that it’s important to give your level best to make it work and it’s an extremely tough decision to make, I am just trying to provide a different perspective. IMHO modeling healthy loving relationships is extremely important for the kids to witness as well. Wish you the best!
- beachy 5y ago
  It may sounds trite but I believe you will look back one day and realise this was just a step on the road, painful as it is now. I suggest you hang in there until then, and do your utmost (swallowing whatever shit is necessary) to stay in good terms with your ex - for your daughter's sake.
- RNCTX 5y ago
  My sympathies, I've been there. My daughter was a teenager, though, so not so bad. In a couple of years she was grown and on her own anyway. I know it won't make you feel any better, but when you get into your late 40s (assuming you're younger due to the age of your daughter) it will dawn on you that there's nothing you could have done differently, it's not anyone's fault. The cruel joke of life is that you don't know what to do until middle-age, and by then you have the briefest of moments to make the most of it because your physical / mental endurance is on borrowed time at that point. That sounds work-related, but the same things apply to people's social lives too. They don't recognize their compulsive behaviors and mistakes until they're old enough to know better. Some never do.
- hyperpallium2 5y ago
  > I would be willing to work on myself and expect nothing in return for the rest of my life if... Going by children of divorced parents, doing this anyway is the best thing you can do for your child, your spouse and your self.
- bartvk 5y ago
  I went through this, and it helped to vent (and ask advice) on r/divorce. You'll get honest answers if you ask for them. Also, I visited a therapist to guide me through the process. Regardless, I agree it's truly lose-lose right now -- it may very well change. You will make it through, because it's your daughter. Keep pressing on.
anonporridge 5y ago
run.
S_A_P 5y ago
Well said. I’m a decade past my divorce and it still causes anguish. I have two kids and while I play by the rules and encourage the kids to be close to both myself and their mother. Their mom is on man in her life number 6/husband 2. There was a period of time that she told the kids to call me dad and the step dad “super dad”. She nearly ran me over twice without warning as I jogged. I’ve never contested child support audits despite my income halving recently. Even knowing what I went through I’m not sure I would have made a different choice. My main worry is my kids and making sure they are ok is pretty much the reason I wake up in the morning. I certainly don’t claim to be blameless in the divorce but having my ex and her mothers psychiatrist break protocol and tell me without charging me that I should leave along with refusing to see them anymore raised some flags. Mental illness got worse From there.
- llampx 5y ago
  The sooner you realize that the entire system thinks of you as evil, the better.
- 77pt77 5y ago
  Please explain the psychiatrist's role in this.
  - jiggunjer 5y ago
    Presumably she felt he was in danger, or his continued presence would create a dangerous situation.
    - S_A_P 5y ago
      This.
- d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
  You deserve to be happy too. The best thing you can do for your kids is to be a active, happy, and confident caregiver. Even if you're flat broke these qualities will rub off on your kids and do more for them throughout their lives than any amount of child support.
me_im_counting 5y ago
Are they? At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regardless of gender. PS - I am divorced too (no kids though) - sorry to hear you’re going through that.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Most divorces are initiated by women. Nowadays, there's an unacceptably high likelihood of divorce within 10 years of marriage. Should it occur, there are significant long term legal and economic repercussions. I simply don't understand why anyone would ever propose marriage in the first place under these circumstances, let alone remarry after experiencing divorce.
- llampx 5y ago
  > At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Your mistake here is conflating what the 1% do with the rest of the world. Its like looking at the richest people in hte world, deciding that they're all men so there must be a patriarchy and that all men are rich. Nowhere near close to the truth. > Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. Citation definitely needed. At least anecdotally, women seem to be just as capable of leaving a sick spouse as men and in fact are supported by society for doing so more than a man in a similar situation.
- mrsmee89 5y ago
  > IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regardless of gender. This is a more thoughtful way of putting it. Thank you. I do think that men tend to get the raw end of the deal when it comes to custody though.
  - deleted 5y ago
Johnny555 5y ago
Divorce is considerably easier for a childless couple. At least as long as the couple manages to be reasonably civil to each other. That doesn't make it "easy", but it is "easier" to not have a bond keeping you attached to the former spouse forever. My ex and I managed to share joint custody of our dog for years, until she moved away and we decided she should keep the dog. Much harder to do that with a child.
- pjerem 5y ago
  > Much harder Impossible *
- Justin308 5y ago
  I went through this but with a child in the US. My ex wife decided to move away 3,000 miles away with our child. I spent a year fighting in court and spend $150k+ in lawyers fees. Being a man with a child under 6 y/o, you have almost no chance to block a mom to move away with the kid across the country. Most men think it won't happen to them, until their wife decides that "she's not happy". Even though the workforce is changing, the family law is still stuck in the 1960's, considering the dad as the breadwinner and the mom as the caregiver. Watch the movie marriage story.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Marriage Story was powerful. Also highly recommend.
square_usual 5y ago
There's a reason "divorced dad" is an identifiable aesthetic. It's treated as a meme, but the very point is that the loss of something that basically grounded a person's life for years is almost irreparable.
AussieWog93 5y ago
>There are no winners, but men are the biggest losers. Whether or not this is true in the statistical sense, I don't think it's a really useful piece of information. Everyone's relationship is different, as are the ways they react and cope (or don't) with it ending.
steve_adams_86 5y ago
I don't agree that men are always the biggest losers. I have friends who are women who have fared so much worse than their male partners for a variety of reasons. I do believe though that (at least in my bubble of the world) it's generally thought that men are the winners, so when you're the loser, it's fairly isolating and lacking of any sympathy or concern in a situation that can be absolutely crushing. If you want support, you're likely not going to get it unless you have close family or friends who care enough to see past unfortunate social norms and simply care about you. If you involve kids, I think it gets quite a bit worse here. My experience has been that family law is mostly a level playing field, but mothers still have the upper hand. This again is something which no one really cares about or will do anything about; you have to suck it up and carry on. There is no way around it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

shijie 5y ago

I’m going through this right now. I’ve done everything I could to try and save the marriage. My spouse is on the warpath. We have a 2 year-old daughter. I would be willing to work on myself and expect nothing in return for the rest of my life if it meant my daughter could go to the park with her mommy and daddy together. I cannot say the smallest part of how I feel. Unyielding personal torment and failure. Breaking up a family is truly lose-lose.

yawnr 5y ago
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. No matter what, you can still have a great life and be a great father, though. Maybe not as tidy, but still beautiful.
bitexploder 5y ago
I have stood by a couple of friends over the years that went through really tough divorces. When you have children and the divorce is mostly forced on you it is very tough. It does funny things, as the article says. I told my friend once, with more insight than I realized at the time, something like this: “this will break you or make you something of a philosopher.” To that end I like the Stoics. A lot is out of our control. Figure out what is in your control and do your best with them (Dichotomy of control). It’s a good starting point. Sorry your family must experience this.
- tsol 5y ago
  That reminds me of a Socrates quote "By all means marry. If you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher."
  - bitexploder 5y ago
    Hah, you know, that is probably where that originated from in my brain. I read that quote a long time ago! Thank you :)
mrsmee89 5y ago
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know the feeling well. Keeping my family together was my numero uno. It drove me mad. I put myself in incredibly vulnerable positions. The thought of my kids growing up without knowing the love that brought them into this world seemed unbearable. Looking back, while I was trying to keep my family together. She was trying to get the most out of our separation. Once I accepted that we weren't going to be a conventional family, I was able to see things with clarity. Accepting it is the hard part. If you're married to someone that has experienced being in an unconventional family then this will feel a lot more normal to them, which absolutely sucks. I really feel for you man.
lelanthran 5y ago
I've been through it, there's nothing you can do and if the mother is really out for blood she will use your child against you. Women get rights, men get obligations.
- dang 5y ago
  I appreciate that you've been through a difficult experience. HN users are welcome to share their experiences here. However, it's not ok to translate the emotion from the experience into flamewar comments. That's the problem with this one: you swerved into generic gender war rhetoric. That's harmful and not ok here. Of course it can be very difficult not to leap from painful experience to dramatic generalization. But it's the sort of thing we all have to work on in order to have HN be the kind of community we're trying for: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- dlsa 5y ago
  When the child support ends a lot of power the state grants women to tear apart a mans life also evaporates. There's a possibility of a silver lining when child support ends. Divorced men need to remember that. Often times its the very start of men resuming a relationship with the children they've been blocked from seeing for all those years. If men comtemplating suicide could realise this and see it as the light at the end of the very dark tunnel then they might keep their faith in themselves and their future.
  - Damogran6 5y ago
    I think that’s a truism that more people need to hear… “This, too, shall pass.” I was struggling with identity and responsibility when the kids were young and and extremely helpful person on a forum told me that my life would not forever be “swamped husband supporting family with young kids”…or even “parents in a faily of four”…sure I’m still a father of two kids, but they’re off doing their own things and my relationship with my wife is a LOT more like the one I had as a couple, before being parents.
- watwut 5y ago
  If men file for custody they get 50/50. Men who ask for full custody also statistically win more often. You are doing disservice to both kids and men when you tell them they cant have it.
WhiteWalker2021 5y ago
Sorry that you are going through this. Kids are super smart and can sense the energy very quickly. If mommy and daddy aren’t happy together, the kids will know, no matter how much you try to hide it. Also, if the parents aren’t getting along ..that isn’t a model of a good healthy relationship for the kids to experience either. Kids just need love and affection to grow into healthy and happy individuals. That love and care can exist even if the parents separated. Plus, you should choose yourself and your happiness too instead of compromising. Expecting nothing for the rest of your life isn’t a good value to pass on to your kids. Kids will like you and respect you more once they grow up if you choose yourself and your happiness! I totally understand that it’s important to give your level best to make it work and it’s an extremely tough decision to make, I am just trying to provide a different perspective. IMHO modeling healthy loving relationships is extremely important for the kids to witness as well. Wish you the best!
beachy 5y ago
It may sounds trite but I believe you will look back one day and realise this was just a step on the road, painful as it is now. I suggest you hang in there until then, and do your utmost (swallowing whatever shit is necessary) to stay in good terms with your ex - for your daughter's sake.
RNCTX 5y ago
My sympathies, I've been there. My daughter was a teenager, though, so not so bad. In a couple of years she was grown and on her own anyway. I know it won't make you feel any better, but when you get into your late 40s (assuming you're younger due to the age of your daughter) it will dawn on you that there's nothing you could have done differently, it's not anyone's fault. The cruel joke of life is that you don't know what to do until middle-age, and by then you have the briefest of moments to make the most of it because your physical / mental endurance is on borrowed time at that point. That sounds work-related, but the same things apply to people's social lives too. They don't recognize their compulsive behaviors and mistakes until they're old enough to know better. Some never do.
hyperpallium2 5y ago
> I would be willing to work on myself and expect nothing in return for the rest of my life if... Going by children of divorced parents, doing this anyway is the best thing you can do for your child, your spouse and your self.
bartvk 5y ago
I went through this, and it helped to vent (and ask advice) on r/divorce. You'll get honest answers if you ask for them. Also, I visited a therapist to guide me through the process. Regardless, I agree it's truly lose-lose right now -- it may very well change. You will make it through, because it's your daughter. Keep pressing on.

anonporridge 5y ago

run.

S_A_P 5y ago

Well said. I’m a decade past my divorce and it still causes anguish. I have two kids and while I play by the rules and encourage the kids to be close to both myself and their mother. Their mom is on man in her life number 6/husband 2. There was a period of time that she told the kids to call me dad and the step dad “super dad”. She nearly ran me over twice without warning as I jogged. I’ve never contested child support audits despite my income halving recently. Even knowing what I went through I’m not sure I would have made a different choice. My main worry is my kids and making sure they are ok is pretty much the reason I wake up in the morning. I certainly don’t claim to be blameless in the divorce but having my ex and her mothers psychiatrist break protocol and tell me without charging me that I should leave along with refusing to see them anymore raised some flags. Mental illness got worse From there.

llampx 5y ago
The sooner you realize that the entire system thinks of you as evil, the better.
77pt77 5y ago
Please explain the psychiatrist's role in this.
- jiggunjer 5y ago
  Presumably she felt he was in danger, or his continued presence would create a dangerous situation.
  - S_A_P 5y ago
    This.
d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
You deserve to be happy too. The best thing you can do for your kids is to be a active, happy, and confident caregiver. Even if you're flat broke these qualities will rub off on your kids and do more for them throughout their lives than any amount of child support.

me_im_counting 5y ago

Are they? At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regardless of gender. PS - I am divorced too (no kids though) - sorry to hear you’re going through that.

matheusmoreira 5y ago
Most divorces are initiated by women. Nowadays, there's an unacceptably high likelihood of divorce within 10 years of marriage. Should it occur, there are significant long term legal and economic repercussions. I simply don't understand why anyone would ever propose marriage in the first place under these circumstances, let alone remarry after experiencing divorce.
llampx 5y ago
> At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Your mistake here is conflating what the 1% do with the rest of the world. Its like looking at the richest people in hte world, deciding that they're all men so there must be a patriarchy and that all men are rich. Nowhere near close to the truth. > Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. Citation definitely needed. At least anecdotally, women seem to be just as capable of leaving a sick spouse as men and in fact are supported by society for doing so more than a man in a similar situation.
mrsmee89 5y ago
> IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regardless of gender. This is a more thoughtful way of putting it. Thank you. I do think that men tend to get the raw end of the deal when it comes to custody though.
- deleted 5y ago

Johnny555 5y ago

Divorce is considerably easier for a childless couple. At least as long as the couple manages to be reasonably civil to each other. That doesn't make it "easy", but it is "easier" to not have a bond keeping you attached to the former spouse forever. My ex and I managed to share joint custody of our dog for years, until she moved away and we decided she should keep the dog. Much harder to do that with a child.

pjerem 5y ago
> Much harder Impossible *
Justin308 5y ago
I went through this but with a child in the US. My ex wife decided to move away 3,000 miles away with our child. I spent a year fighting in court and spend $150k+ in lawyers fees. Being a man with a child under 6 y/o, you have almost no chance to block a mom to move away with the kid across the country. Most men think it won't happen to them, until their wife decides that "she's not happy". Even though the workforce is changing, the family law is still stuck in the 1960's, considering the dad as the breadwinner and the mom as the caregiver. Watch the movie marriage story.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Marriage Story was powerful. Also highly recommend.

square_usual 5y ago

There's a reason "divorced dad" is an identifiable aesthetic. It's treated as a meme, but the very point is that the loss of something that basically grounded a person's life for years is almost irreparable.

AussieWog93 5y ago

>There are no winners, but men are the biggest losers. Whether or not this is true in the statistical sense, I don't think it's a really useful piece of information. Everyone's relationship is different, as are the ways they react and cope (or don't) with it ending.

steve_adams_86 5y ago

I don't agree that men are always the biggest losers. I have friends who are women who have fared so much worse than their male partners for a variety of reasons. I do believe though that (at least in my bubble of the world) it's generally thought that men are the winners, so when you're the loser, it's fairly isolating and lacking of any sympathy or concern in a situation that can be absolutely crushing. If you want support, you're likely not going to get it unless you have close family or friends who care enough to see past unfortunate social norms and simply care about you. If you involve kids, I think it gets quite a bit worse here. My experience has been that family law is mostly a level playing field, but mothers still have the upper hand. This again is something which no one really cares about or will do anything about; you have to suck it up and carry on. There is no way around it.