7 ms·

Renew your service or we’ll trash your credit score, Spectrum tells ex-customer

138 points by defqon 5y ago

jjoonathan 5y ago
It's outrageous that companies in the modern day and age can just elect to make cancellation difficult or impossible and keep taking money from you.
- Natsu 5y ago
  I know what you mean. Long ago, I got Speakeasy when they had a great reputation. At some point, they turned into Megapath, but service seemed okay... at least until I tried to cancel. I filled out their form online and went through the dance to cancel, but never got any confirmation. Only a couple months later did I hear from them, because my credit card had expired. I had to make a deal with them to process my cancellation before paying the remainder of the bill. Strangely, it worked instantly when I was on the phone with the rep. Go figure?
- Supermancho 5y ago
  > It's outrageous that companies in the modern day and age can just elect to make cancellation difficult or impossible and keep taking money from yo I'm not sure you read the story. A small claims judge would make short work of that situation wherein they will inform Spectrum that they do not want this to go to jury. However, this story is about a guy getting a resubscription extortion letter in light of a non-existent debt. Might as well be a foreign Prince scam because there are no damages.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    I'm not sure you're familiar with how the "you can't cancel" trick works. The situation in TFA is what happens if you try to escalate an ignored cancellation request by stopping payment. The company graciously extends debt to cover the service that you surely didn't intend to cancel, and when your balance -- augmented by late fees, of course -- has grown to be worth their while, they try to collect. Variations on this theme exist. Sometimes you take a less than completely active role in the sign-up process and only learn about it on collection. Sometimes you "successfully" cancel and they just fail to process it. The common theme here is ongoing transactions for ongoing service (that isn't actually delivered) in the absence of ongoing consent. It's dysfunctional that we allow this in any form, regardless of whether the form in TFA is slightly less dysfunctional or slightly more dysfunctional than the most common form, which is what I structured my comment around. If subscription services had to register with your credit card, credit reporting agencies, or some authority that gave you a (complete!) list and a cancel button, all of these problems would go away, along with the awful business models that they enable.
    - Supermancho 5y ago
      Oh, I'm familiar. Lots of people are familiar. This is a question of tort law wrapped in corporate sponsored "mandatory mediation", which never rules in your favor or delays. I am asserting that while the dispute is small it can be quickly resolved because the court is happy to mediate immediately regardless of the contractual body appointed. It's when you exceed the small claims or wait, ie you're afraid to go to court or are lapse in monitoring your own finances, that the problem accelerates out of control.
- throwawaymanbot 5y ago
  Welcome to America.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  You can take them to court you know. It's not as complicated as many people make it sound. File a few forms and show up when needed. You barely even need a lawyer. Half the time for something that simple, the company will just want to settle for a simple shakedown.
- standardUser 5y ago
  It is outrageous, but the blame doesn't lie with companies doing precisely what companies are intended to due, the fault lies solely with politicians who reliably fail to put their voters interest above that of their donors.
  - rectang 5y ago
    You say that like politicians and companies never talk to each other. Who do you think is exerting the corrupting pressure on the politicians?
  - vegetablepotpie 5y ago
    Companies are intended to extort money from former customers based on real and implied threats? What is the claim here? Are you saying for profit companies are inherently parasitic and politicians need to pass specific regulations to prevent every instance of bad corporate behavior? Or is it that politicians have created systems that makes companies acting antisocially inevitable? Or is it that companies have made adequate enough campaign contributions to have politicians look the other way?
    - standardUser 5y ago
      The obvious claim is that companies will (and should) use any legal means to profit. If we don't want a certain behavior from a company we should elect people who support passing laws to regulate those activities. As has been done for generations. But to pretend companies should just act like we want is ridiculous.
      - dwaltrip 5y ago
        The law and profit motive aren’t the only things guiding company behavior. Those factors are very dominant, but I don’t think that is the whole story. Companies are composed of individuals, and individuals have complex reasons for their behavior, much more than simply not going to jail and making money.
        5y ago
tomc1985 5y ago
I don't know the details of his debt but this seems a lot less sinister when you realize that they're offering to cancel a debt if he resumes service
- kmonsen 5y ago
  That's what the mobsters say as well, and somehow even they get a bad reputation. Can't people see we are trying to do them a service?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- doomrobo 5y ago
  There is no debt to speak of though
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  As the article clearly states, he had no debt with Spectrum. Which Spectrum admitted when questioned.
johndoughy 5y ago
I've never understood why ISPs and cellular carriers aren't prepaid by default, which would avoid the credit system entirely. Do these companies benefit somehow by being post-paid and relying on credit?
- paxys 5y ago
  You are overestimating customers' willingness to prepay. Using the service all month and getting a bill at the end is a hardwired habit and how all utilities have operated forever. Increasing the up-front cost for a new customer by $50-100 is going to be a huge hit for the business.
  - brewdad 5y ago
    True, with one big but. Once a customer is established, especially if you can get them in the autopay system, the prepaid charge becomes just another bill as well. Most customers won't think too hard about whether they are paying last month's bill vs next month's service charge.
    - paxys 5y ago
      > Most customers won't think too hard about whether they are paying last month's bill vs next month's service charge. Sure, but you still have to switch the billing cycle from end of month to beginning of month somehow. Customers are definitely going to care if they are suddenly hit with a 2x charge.
  - soultrees 5y ago
    Let’s also not forget that 2-3 contracts exist and are pretty standard for most people with a phone. That’s years of lock-in on a post-paid customer.
- sen 5y ago
  Late fees, payment plans with service fees, and locking people into contracts are all incredible profitable.
- 5y ago
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
From the letter: > “You have worked hard to build a great future for yourself and your family,” it says. “We look forward to welcoming you back.” I think I just threw up in my mouth. "Shame if something happened to that great future you built", indeed.
suzzer99 5y ago
Spectrum has turned old equipment into a profit center. Twice now when I canceled and turned in my equipment I still had to file an appeal to keep from being charged. Full price of course - for some old cable box or modem they just throw in a landfill.
wolpoli 5y ago
It sounds someone crafted a letter for people who own balance and made a mistake when they queried the CRM for a list of customers. I am not convinced that it was meant to be an actual threat to trash the recipient's credit score.
- irjustin 5y ago
  Agreed, if the customer owed something/missed a payment, then this letter makes sense. This customer didn't owe anything, so clearly this letter wasn't intended for them, but got it by an error. I'm all for pitchforking Comcast and other giants who have terrible business practices, but this article seems like it's trying to drum up angst when this can clearly be explained by a mistake. If I had bad debt and an option to repay my debt or have it cancelled if I do X and X is reasonable, these are both good options.
  - jpmoral 5y ago
    I agree with the article though that the letter borders on threatening and is misleading. Nitpick: Angst != anger
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    This type of letter doesn't make sense no matter what, and if people receive something like this they should immediately file a complaint with the FTC for FCRA violations.
    - irjustin 5y ago
      I'll need help understanding why this letter doesn't make sense if I have bad debt (can agree it doesn't with the current article). and which FCRA violation specifically? Basic read of FCRA... I don't see one.
      - not2b 5y ago
        If the person owes money the letter should describe how much is owed and what it is owed for.
Animats 5y ago
That's extortion. Contact a lawyer.
- Johnny555 5y ago
  But only if you have access to a free lawyer, because the most likely outcome is that they'll make the same claim they already made -- that the letter was meant to be sent to customers that had outstanding billing issues. And I don't think it's illegal for the company to promise debt forgiveness to customers that re-join. He said letters like the one Schklair received are sent to numerous former customers who may have billing issues. The letters are intended to help indebted people find their way back into the financial light, he said.
ktross 5y ago
It doesn't surprise me. Spectrum is currently the only non-dsl provider in my area, so I'm basically forced to use their service since I moved here. The first time I paid with one of my cards, the bank flagged it as suspicious and denied the transaction. Spectrum then charged me a $25 fee and initially refused to refund it until I was very persistent and annoying. They also constantly send me spam regarding Spectrum mobile with subjects like "Your response is required". I even used their cost estimator to compare it to my current provider, Mint Mobile. When I entered my current plan into their calculator, it told me that I made a mistake (because it was so much cheaper.)
ericabiz 5y ago
https://archive.ph/Quf2k https://archive.ph/Quf2k
vegetablepotpie 5y ago
I don’t know about Spectrum, but that news page was pretty ”extractive”. When trying to copy/paste from iPhone, it was all but inevitable to click an ad. When I tried to highlight a word, the whole page would highlight. When I tried to click off to deselect, it would register as a click to an external advertisers page. I’d like to apply Hanlon’s razor, but it feels too coincidental that someone making money from this hasn’t fixed it.
dreamcompiler 5y ago
So this is what it's come to: The only sure way to cancel cable service is to have your lawyer send them a certified letter giving notice that you're breaking the contract and you will not be responsible for future debts. That way if they try any funny business later you can take them to court and have a pretty good chance of victory. (IANAL)

138 points by defqon 5y ago

It's outrageous that companies in the modern day and age can just elect to make cancellation difficult or impossible and keep taking money from you.

Natsu 5y ago
I know what you mean. Long ago, I got Speakeasy when they had a great reputation. At some point, they turned into Megapath, but service seemed okay... at least until I tried to cancel. I filled out their form online and went through the dance to cancel, but never got any confirmation. Only a couple months later did I hear from them, because my credit card had expired. I had to make a deal with them to process my cancellation before paying the remainder of the bill. Strangely, it worked instantly when I was on the phone with the rep. Go figure?
Supermancho 5y ago
> It's outrageous that companies in the modern day and age can just elect to make cancellation difficult or impossible and keep taking money from yo I'm not sure you read the story. A small claims judge would make short work of that situation wherein they will inform Spectrum that they do not want this to go to jury. However, this story is about a guy getting a resubscription extortion letter in light of a non-existent debt. Might as well be a foreign Prince scam because there are no damages.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  I'm not sure you're familiar with how the "you can't cancel" trick works. The situation in TFA is what happens if you try to escalate an ignored cancellation request by stopping payment. The company graciously extends debt to cover the service that you surely didn't intend to cancel, and when your balance -- augmented by late fees, of course -- has grown to be worth their while, they try to collect. Variations on this theme exist. Sometimes you take a less than completely active role in the sign-up process and only learn about it on collection. Sometimes you "successfully" cancel and they just fail to process it. The common theme here is ongoing transactions for ongoing service (that isn't actually delivered) in the absence of ongoing consent. It's dysfunctional that we allow this in any form, regardless of whether the form in TFA is slightly less dysfunctional or slightly more dysfunctional than the most common form, which is what I structured my comment around. If subscription services had to register with your credit card, credit reporting agencies, or some authority that gave you a (complete!) list and a cancel button, all of these problems would go away, along with the awful business models that they enable.
  - Supermancho 5y ago
    Oh, I'm familiar. Lots of people are familiar. This is a question of tort law wrapped in corporate sponsored "mandatory mediation", which never rules in your favor or delays. I am asserting that while the dispute is small it can be quickly resolved because the court is happy to mediate immediately regardless of the contractual body appointed. It's when you exceed the small claims or wait, ie you're afraid to go to court or are lapse in monitoring your own finances, that the problem accelerates out of control.
throwawaymanbot 5y ago
Welcome to America.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
You can take them to court you know. It's not as complicated as many people make it sound. File a few forms and show up when needed. You barely even need a lawyer. Half the time for something that simple, the company will just want to settle for a simple shakedown.
standardUser 5y ago
It is outrageous, but the blame doesn't lie with companies doing precisely what companies are intended to due, the fault lies solely with politicians who reliably fail to put their voters interest above that of their donors.
- rectang 5y ago
  You say that like politicians and companies never talk to each other. Who do you think is exerting the corrupting pressure on the politicians?
- vegetablepotpie 5y ago
  Companies are intended to extort money from former customers based on real and implied threats? What is the claim here? Are you saying for profit companies are inherently parasitic and politicians need to pass specific regulations to prevent every instance of bad corporate behavior? Or is it that politicians have created systems that makes companies acting antisocially inevitable? Or is it that companies have made adequate enough campaign contributions to have politicians look the other way?
  - standardUser 5y ago
    The obvious claim is that companies will (and should) use any legal means to profit. If we don't want a certain behavior from a company we should elect people who support passing laws to regulate those activities. As has been done for generations. But to pretend companies should just act like we want is ridiculous.
    - dwaltrip 5y ago
      The law and profit motive aren’t the only things guiding company behavior. Those factors are very dominant, but I don’t think that is the whole story. Companies are composed of individuals, and individuals have complex reasons for their behavior, much more than simply not going to jail and making money.
      - 5y ago

tomc1985 5y ago

I don't know the details of his debt but this seems a lot less sinister when you realize that they're offering to cancel a debt if he resumes service

kmonsen 5y ago
That's what the mobsters say as well, and somehow even they get a bad reputation. Can't people see we are trying to do them a service?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
doomrobo 5y ago
There is no debt to speak of though
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
LeoPanthera 5y ago
As the article clearly states, he had no debt with Spectrum. Which Spectrum admitted when questioned.

johndoughy 5y ago

I've never understood why ISPs and cellular carriers aren't prepaid by default, which would avoid the credit system entirely. Do these companies benefit somehow by being post-paid and relying on credit?

paxys 5y ago
You are overestimating customers' willingness to prepay. Using the service all month and getting a bill at the end is a hardwired habit and how all utilities have operated forever. Increasing the up-front cost for a new customer by $50-100 is going to be a huge hit for the business.
- brewdad 5y ago
  True, with one big but. Once a customer is established, especially if you can get them in the autopay system, the prepaid charge becomes just another bill as well. Most customers won't think too hard about whether they are paying last month's bill vs next month's service charge.
  - paxys 5y ago
    > Most customers won't think too hard about whether they are paying last month's bill vs next month's service charge. Sure, but you still have to switch the billing cycle from end of month to beginning of month somehow. Customers are definitely going to care if they are suddenly hit with a 2x charge.
- soultrees 5y ago
  Let’s also not forget that 2-3 contracts exist and are pretty standard for most people with a phone. That’s years of lock-in on a post-paid customer.
sen 5y ago
Late fees, payment plans with service fees, and locking people into contracts are all incredible profitable.
5y ago

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

From the letter: > “You have worked hard to build a great future for yourself and your family,” it says. “We look forward to welcoming you back.” I think I just threw up in my mouth. "Shame if something happened to that great future you built", indeed.

suzzer99 5y ago

Spectrum has turned old equipment into a profit center. Twice now when I canceled and turned in my equipment I still had to file an appeal to keep from being charged. Full price of course - for some old cable box or modem they just throw in a landfill.

wolpoli 5y ago

It sounds someone crafted a letter for people who own balance and made a mistake when they queried the CRM for a list of customers. I am not convinced that it was meant to be an actual threat to trash the recipient's credit score.

irjustin 5y ago
Agreed, if the customer owed something/missed a payment, then this letter makes sense. This customer didn't owe anything, so clearly this letter wasn't intended for them, but got it by an error. I'm all for pitchforking Comcast and other giants who have terrible business practices, but this article seems like it's trying to drum up angst when this can clearly be explained by a mistake. If I had bad debt and an option to repay my debt or have it cancelled if I do X and X is reasonable, these are both good options.
- jpmoral 5y ago
  I agree with the article though that the letter borders on threatening and is misleading. Nitpick: Angst != anger
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  This type of letter doesn't make sense no matter what, and if people receive something like this they should immediately file a complaint with the FTC for FCRA violations.
  - irjustin 5y ago
    I'll need help understanding why this letter doesn't make sense if I have bad debt (can agree it doesn't with the current article). and which FCRA violation specifically? Basic read of FCRA... I don't see one.
    - not2b 5y ago
      If the person owes money the letter should describe how much is owed and what it is owed for.

Animats 5y ago

That's extortion. Contact a lawyer.

Johnny555 5y ago
But only if you have access to a free lawyer, because the most likely outcome is that they'll make the same claim they already made -- that the letter was meant to be sent to customers that had outstanding billing issues. And I don't think it's illegal for the company to promise debt forgiveness to customers that re-join. He said letters like the one Schklair received are sent to numerous former customers who may have billing issues. The letters are intended to help indebted people find their way back into the financial light, he said.

ktross 5y ago

It doesn't surprise me. Spectrum is currently the only non-dsl provider in my area, so I'm basically forced to use their service since I moved here. The first time I paid with one of my cards, the bank flagged it as suspicious and denied the transaction. Spectrum then charged me a $25 fee and initially refused to refund it until I was very persistent and annoying. They also constantly send me spam regarding Spectrum mobile with subjects like "Your response is required". I even used their cost estimator to compare it to my current provider, Mint Mobile. When I entered my current plan into their calculator, it told me that I made a mistake (because it was so much cheaper.)

ericabiz 5y ago

https://archive.ph/Quf2k https://archive.ph/Quf2k

vegetablepotpie 5y ago

I don’t know about Spectrum, but that news page was pretty ”extractive”. When trying to copy/paste from iPhone, it was all but inevitable to click an ad. When I tried to highlight a word, the whole page would highlight. When I tried to click off to deselect, it would register as a click to an external advertisers page. I’d like to apply Hanlon’s razor, but it feels too coincidental that someone making money from this hasn’t fixed it.

dreamcompiler 5y ago

So this is what it's come to: The only sure way to cancel cable service is to have your lawyer send them a certified letter giving notice that you're breaking the contract and you will not be responsible for future debts. That way if they try any funny business later you can take them to court and have a pretty good chance of victory. (IANAL)