6 ms·

How is it objectively incorrect, if he pretty much quoted a direct speech verbatim? At least one of them hit Rittenhouse with a skateboard, so he was armed.

Dylan16807 5y ago
If you're calling a skateboard a weapon I'm going to take everything you say with a mountain of salt.
- YeBanKo 5y ago
  Not me, but courts. Not just a weapon, but a deadly weapon.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    Courts aren't automatically reasonable. You're endorsing the classification. Fists can do just as much damage as a skateboard.
    - YeBanKo 5y ago
      Yeah, and a knife can kill just as well as a gun. Except it can’t. A medium build woman can break one’s skull with 2-3 swings of a skateboard, especially if it lands on the edge or on a sticking metal part. To achieve the same damage with fists, it would take years of training and would also cause a significant damage to one’s hands.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        If hitting with just the right angle on a hard bit is good enough to count then half the things on my desk are deadly weapons. I can't get behind that definition.
        YeBanKo 5y ago
        Then don’t. You can continue denying common sense. But if someone threatens to assault you with a skateboard, bare hand or an item from your desk, then will intuitively discover the difference.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        Is that the bar? Anything more effective than fists, even if just by preventing the attacker from being hurt, is a deadly weapon? My normal desktop items could break skulls too, I'm pretty sure. And the pens, oof...
        Jensson 5y ago
        If you started using your desk items as a weapon and swung them at a person in a manner that could reliably kill them then the court would consider you to have a deadly weapon as well. If you use an item in a manner that can reliably kill people then you use a deadly weapon even if it wasn't intended to be a deadly weapon. Is a pair of scissors a deadly weapon? Yes. Is a heavy hard blunt object (like a statue) a deadly weapon? Yes.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        Well, noted I guess. I probably dismissed the idea in the wrong way then. Next time I'll just say "'deadly weapon' is a very low bar and doesn't mean much". It's not productive to argue about definitions, even if they don't make sense to me. My intent wasn't a semantics argument.
        0des 5y ago
        The requirement is that you be in fear for your life or the life of another in your vicinity. Let's say you grabbed a Bic pen, and went for someone's neck with it: in this situation the courts would favor the persons right to self defense given the credible threat to their life. The same counts for something that is a risk to incapacitate them, because courts have historically favored the argument that what happens after you are disarmed or incapacitated could result in death. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just offering my observations of precedent.
    - Eelongate 5y ago
      You've heard of levers, I'm sure. One classic 'simple machines'. Skateboards have more leverage than fists.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        They're not that big compared to arms. Moderately more leverage, but a significant reduction in weight.
        Eelongate 5y ago
        They're about as long medieval maces, with a similarly heavy bit of metal on the end. And when either is held in the hand and swung, they have substantially more leverage than the hand itself. Unless you think he was swinging a skateboard from his armpit? This conversation is getting ridiculous.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        > And when either is held in the hand and swung, they have substantially more leverage than the hand itself. Unless you think he was swinging a skateboard from his armpit? A skateboard held in your hand can't use much of the mass of your arm to help, it's mostly impacting with its own weight. Your hand can impact with a lot more weight behind it even though the swing radius won't be as big.
        Jensson 5y ago
        People die if you hit them with in the head with a fist sized rock, that is what is required for something to be a deadly weapon. A metal rimmed skateboard can deal more damage than a rock so it is a deadly weapon.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        I can understand that, and see my other response https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29236031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29236031, but even so... How many people, if you asked "Do you have any weapons in your backyard?", would say "Yes, several rocks."
    - stale2002 5y ago
      If you are just going to call the entire court system rigged, or whatever, then it is corrospondingly difficult to take what you are saying seriously. As a general rule, I think that the legal experts know more about this than you do.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        No, not rigged. But sometimes things get interpreted in ways that really stretch the meanings of words. I think anyone that has looked at legal history can agree with that. And sometimes legal definitions are dumb, which isn't even a court thing. Also even if it's correct inside its realm, if enough objects count as deadly weapons then "he had a deadly weapon" loses most of its impact and gets misleading. I'm reminded that technically a bare receiver is a gun...
        stale2002 5y ago
        But as a general rule, if we think about all this in aggregate, we should agree that the literal legal experts are way way more likely to get this stuff correct than you are. If we were evaluating how valuable someone's opinion is on all this stuff, your opinion would be way down the list, compared to legal experts. And if we compared a random ununiformed opinion, such as from you, and compared it to the opinions of the legal system, it is way more likely that you don't really know how any of this works, as opposed to the actual legal experts.
        lovecg 5y ago
        I think you’re being hung up on the literal meaning of the words a little bit. It seems reasonable to have more severe consequences for someone attacking someone else with a rock compared to somebody just using their fists. We decided to call the former “assault with a deadly weapon”. This doesn’t mean that a rock is a “deadly weapon” under all circumstances. You can’t get charged with “possession of a deadly weapon” for simply walking around with a rock without intent of hurting anyone.
    - cassac 5y ago
      You must be joking or have not done many things where people swing things at you. 100% of the time in a random “get hit in the head taste test” I would choose a fist. Aluminum bats don’t weigh much either but I’m not going to go out of my way to have my head in the path of one.
- teakettle42 5y ago
  A skateboard, when used as a weapon, is a deadly weapon. weapon, n: a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage. Does a skateboard have other innocent purposes, to which it is generally put to use? Of course — that’s generally why skateboards are brought to riots. It provides plausible deniability during the times when you’re not using it to hit people in the head with a deadly weapon.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    If we go with that definition, and nothing else, then imagine "one of them threw an ice cube at someone, so he was armed". It's a thing used to inflict bodily harm in that context, but calling it "a weapon" seems crazy to me.
    - sergiogjr 5y ago
      How big of an Ice cube? As big as a brick? Yes, can be just as deadly and a coble stone.
    - teakettle42 5y ago
      If you have large enough ice cube — or any other object — that is capable of inflicting serious bodily harm, and you use it to physically attack someone, you’ve committed assault with a deadly weapon. Why is this crazy to you? This is why someone can be charged for assault with a deadly weapon while trying to run someone over with their car. Do you think that’s crazy just because cars are usually meant to be used for driving?
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        I'm talking about normal ice cubes. They can inflict bodily harm. With 'serious', does that mean you're suggesting a different definition from the one you quoted? > This is why someone can be charged for assault with a deadly weapon while trying to run someone over with their car. A car is at least in a medium category where it's not a generally safe object. Remember that my original objection was saying someone was "armed". If we used the definition you gave to figure that out, I think almost everyone is armed. Or they transform from unarmed to armed when they smack someone??
- nradov 5y ago
  There was a notorious incident in San Francisco in 2019 where a skater nearly killed a security guard by hitting him in the head with a skateboard. https://skatenewswire.com/jesse-vieira-black-rock-security-guard-assault/ https://skatenewswire.com/jesse-vieira-black-rock-security-g...

Dylan16807 5y ago

If you're calling a skateboard a weapon I'm going to take everything you say with a mountain of salt.

YeBanKo 5y ago
Not me, but courts. Not just a weapon, but a deadly weapon.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  Courts aren't automatically reasonable. You're endorsing the classification. Fists can do just as much damage as a skateboard.
  - YeBanKo 5y ago
    Yeah, and a knife can kill just as well as a gun. Except it can’t. A medium build woman can break one’s skull with 2-3 swings of a skateboard, especially if it lands on the edge or on a sticking metal part. To achieve the same damage with fists, it would take years of training and would also cause a significant damage to one’s hands.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      If hitting with just the right angle on a hard bit is good enough to count then half the things on my desk are deadly weapons. I can't get behind that definition.
      - YeBanKo 5y ago
        Then don’t. You can continue denying common sense. But if someone threatens to assault you with a skateboard, bare hand or an item from your desk, then will intuitively discover the difference.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        Is that the bar? Anything more effective than fists, even if just by preventing the attacker from being hurt, is a deadly weapon? My normal desktop items could break skulls too, I'm pretty sure. And the pens, oof...
        Jensson 5y ago
        If you started using your desk items as a weapon and swung them at a person in a manner that could reliably kill them then the court would consider you to have a deadly weapon as well. If you use an item in a manner that can reliably kill people then you use a deadly weapon even if it wasn't intended to be a deadly weapon. Is a pair of scissors a deadly weapon? Yes. Is a heavy hard blunt object (like a statue) a deadly weapon? Yes.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        Well, noted I guess. I probably dismissed the idea in the wrong way then. Next time I'll just say "'deadly weapon' is a very low bar and doesn't mean much". It's not productive to argue about definitions, even if they don't make sense to me. My intent wasn't a semantics argument.
        0des 5y ago
        The requirement is that you be in fear for your life or the life of another in your vicinity. Let's say you grabbed a Bic pen, and went for someone's neck with it: in this situation the courts would favor the persons right to self defense given the credible threat to their life. The same counts for something that is a risk to incapacitate them, because courts have historically favored the argument that what happens after you are disarmed or incapacitated could result in death. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just offering my observations of precedent.
  - Eelongate 5y ago
    You've heard of levers, I'm sure. One classic 'simple machines'. Skateboards have more leverage than fists.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      They're not that big compared to arms. Moderately more leverage, but a significant reduction in weight.
      - Eelongate 5y ago
        They're about as long medieval maces, with a similarly heavy bit of metal on the end. And when either is held in the hand and swung, they have substantially more leverage than the hand itself. Unless you think he was swinging a skateboard from his armpit? This conversation is getting ridiculous.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        > And when either is held in the hand and swung, they have substantially more leverage than the hand itself. Unless you think he was swinging a skateboard from his armpit? A skateboard held in your hand can't use much of the mass of your arm to help, it's mostly impacting with its own weight. Your hand can impact with a lot more weight behind it even though the swing radius won't be as big.
        Jensson 5y ago
        People die if you hit them with in the head with a fist sized rock, that is what is required for something to be a deadly weapon. A metal rimmed skateboard can deal more damage than a rock so it is a deadly weapon.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        I can understand that, and see my other response https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29236031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29236031, but even so... How many people, if you asked "Do you have any weapons in your backyard?", would say "Yes, several rocks."
  - stale2002 5y ago
    If you are just going to call the entire court system rigged, or whatever, then it is corrospondingly difficult to take what you are saying seriously. As a general rule, I think that the legal experts know more about this than you do.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      No, not rigged. But sometimes things get interpreted in ways that really stretch the meanings of words. I think anyone that has looked at legal history can agree with that. And sometimes legal definitions are dumb, which isn't even a court thing. Also even if it's correct inside its realm, if enough objects count as deadly weapons then "he had a deadly weapon" loses most of its impact and gets misleading. I'm reminded that technically a bare receiver is a gun...
      - stale2002 5y ago
        But as a general rule, if we think about all this in aggregate, we should agree that the literal legal experts are way way more likely to get this stuff correct than you are. If we were evaluating how valuable someone's opinion is on all this stuff, your opinion would be way down the list, compared to legal experts. And if we compared a random ununiformed opinion, such as from you, and compared it to the opinions of the legal system, it is way more likely that you don't really know how any of this works, as opposed to the actual legal experts.
      - lovecg 5y ago
        I think you’re being hung up on the literal meaning of the words a little bit. It seems reasonable to have more severe consequences for someone attacking someone else with a rock compared to somebody just using their fists. We decided to call the former “assault with a deadly weapon”. This doesn’t mean that a rock is a “deadly weapon” under all circumstances. You can’t get charged with “possession of a deadly weapon” for simply walking around with a rock without intent of hurting anyone.
  - cassac 5y ago
    You must be joking or have not done many things where people swing things at you. 100% of the time in a random “get hit in the head taste test” I would choose a fist. Aluminum bats don’t weigh much either but I’m not going to go out of my way to have my head in the path of one.
teakettle42 5y ago
A skateboard, when used as a weapon, is a deadly weapon. weapon, n: a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage. Does a skateboard have other innocent purposes, to which it is generally put to use? Of course — that’s generally why skateboards are brought to riots. It provides plausible deniability during the times when you’re not using it to hit people in the head with a deadly weapon.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  If we go with that definition, and nothing else, then imagine "one of them threw an ice cube at someone, so he was armed". It's a thing used to inflict bodily harm in that context, but calling it "a weapon" seems crazy to me.
  - sergiogjr 5y ago
    How big of an Ice cube? As big as a brick? Yes, can be just as deadly and a coble stone.
  - teakettle42 5y ago
    If you have large enough ice cube — or any other object — that is capable of inflicting serious bodily harm, and you use it to physically attack someone, you’ve committed assault with a deadly weapon. Why is this crazy to you? This is why someone can be charged for assault with a deadly weapon while trying to run someone over with their car. Do you think that’s crazy just because cars are usually meant to be used for driving?
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      I'm talking about normal ice cubes. They can inflict bodily harm. With 'serious', does that mean you're suggesting a different definition from the one you quoted? > This is why someone can be charged for assault with a deadly weapon while trying to run someone over with their car. A car is at least in a medium category where it's not a generally safe object. Remember that my original objection was saying someone was "armed". If we used the definition you gave to figure that out, I think almost everyone is armed. Or they transform from unarmed to armed when they smack someone??
nradov 5y ago
There was a notorious incident in San Francisco in 2019 where a skater nearly killed a security guard by hitting him in the head with a skateboard. https://skatenewswire.com/jesse-vieira-black-rock-security-guard-assault/ https://skatenewswire.com/jesse-vieira-black-rock-security-g...