16 ms·

There may be a steep privacy cost if you park here

196 points by arkadiyt 5y ago

robbmorganf 5y ago
> need[ing] to monitor people’s unrelated web browsing and links they click Does this require some kind of vulnerability exploit? I would hope that apps can't extract this kind of information from other unrelated apps.
- simcop2387 5y ago
  I suspect it does fingerprinting to tie it to another advertising id to extract it all evetnually
diebeforei485 5y ago
It's common in China and some parts of Europe that they just use a license plate reader camera to log the time you entered, and another one at exit In China you just scan a QR code from a screen to pay and leave, but I think that could be replaced with a credit card reader or contactless payment. I don't see why it requires downloading an app.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  It’s not required, it’s for the benefit of a data collection business.
teucris 5y ago
Saw this while in Trader Joe’s. Not the specific one mentioned however.
rudian 5y ago
Many of these things are basically standard practice nowadays thanks to cross-site tracking and this is just one of the many companies that checks all the (modern shitty-company) boxes. It's good that they are exposed and people discuss them in order to (hopefully) reach the politicians, but none of this is surprising at all.
pengaru 5y ago
> The parking-lot attendant, he said, “let me off with a warning that I wouldn’t be so lucky next time.” So... for some old timer who pulls up without a smartphone they'll turn them away? Sounds like an empty threat to me. Edit: Should have read more before commenting, later in the article: > customers “also have the option of entering their license plate number into one of four kiosks as a means of validating their parking.” So it's just a difference of convenience, much ado about nothing.
- gruez 5y ago
  >So... for some old timer who pulls up without a smartphone they'll turn them away? yeah? AFAIK if you want to shop at an amazon go store, you need mobile app and a registered amazon account. We're also getting there at other places because some establishments/jurisdictions are requiring proof of vaccination (ie. signed QR code).
  - FpUser 5y ago
    I shop at amazon using web browser. I would never install any of their apps.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    You can print the QR code at your local library. The onus is still there, but it's on the business. On the other hand, I've been 'checked' in a few places but nobody has a QR scanner, they just look at my name on the card and my ID
  - jackson1442 5y ago
    Amazon Go allows you to insert a debit/credit card linked with amazon account to enter as well.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    I fully expect more cities to prohibit retail establishments from refusing cash within their jurisdictions. There's precedent for it already, on grounds of discriminating against the poor.
GavinMcG 5y ago
I'm glad to see this framing. Reading the provisions identified in the article, you could easily react by saying "well, that's normal." Of course a parking app would ask for your vehicle's make/model and for your credit card information. But it is a cost, and the unrestrained use of that information is a further cost. And that's before you get into "need[ing] to monitor people’s unrelated web browsing and links they click" ostensibly in order to "understand how customers are coming to Metropolis" (emphasis added).
- secabeen 5y ago
  Is there even an app at all here? If you look at their screenshots, it's all just a website. When you "sign up", they don't send you to the Google or Apple app stores, just to their app.metropolis.io site. When you look at the privacy policy, everything I see there is in line with a somewhat lawyerly description of what every web server receives. IP Address, Carrier (in the rDNS or WHOIS of the IP), HTTP referrers, HTTP User-Agent details, etc. Cross-device tracking is a side effect of logging into their website from multiple devices. Geo-location could be a bit intrusive, but again pretty useful to auto-identify the parking structure that you're in, and browsers allow you to deny the request for that data. They also collect "cellphone number, email address, license plate number and credit card information, as well as the make, model and year of your vehicle.", but that's needed to provide the service. The framing here is pretty alarmist, and all of it is based on a read of the privacy policy. A deeper dive would MITM the traffic and actually see if they were collecting data beyond the basics. Without that, the article just ends up on picking on one specific vendor/industry, without helping the reader understand how this vendor compares to other vendors and other apps.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    It sounds like you’re not aware of the news in the last decade or so. Very little chance there is no data monetization going on. Would not be profitable without it.
    - bicklet 5y ago
encryptluks2 5y ago
The worst offender I've seen is Xfinity/Comcast. Recently cancelled service, never got a notice and multiple incorrect bills after canceling. Anytime I would talk you customer service, they would always say... "If you want to see your correct bill, then you have to download the app." I continually would have to tell them that I'm not downloading their damn app and that they are big enough that they can have the correct information on their website. Joe Biden and the Democrats decided to give large ISPs an additional 65 billion dollars with the Infrastructure Plan shortly after this incident.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  And Trump and the Republicans decided to give large ISPs a massive corporate tax break just the prior term, as well as remove a lot of pro consumer regulation re: the FCC, in that case. What's the point of the political commentary?
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    If I recall, the billion dollar subsidies that were stolen and never used to expand broadband were given out on the Democrats' watch previously, and again this time. So, the whataboutism is not really necessary here. However, if you want to go that route—there is nothing stopping Democrats from declaring Internet a public utility and targeting the ISP monopolies, but that isn't part of their agenda.
- not-elite 5y ago
  You will be happy to learn that under Chair Khan, the FTC is going to prioritize enforcement actions against this specific practice. Only 1 Commissioner issued a dissenting statement. [1] Comcast has probably already discontinued the practice, as it's been 2 weeks since the policy statement was issued. [1] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-ramp-enforcement-against-illegal-dark-patterns-trick-or-trap https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-r...
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
gleenn 5y ago
FTA nothing to do with Trader Joes, but where that particular THs happens to have its parking lot. Only at location, and you're allowed to emter a license plate number instead of logging in. Seems pretty click-baity to me.
dreen 5y ago
Just say you don't have a smartphone. I got rid of mine and was worried I will have issues at places that do this sort of stuff. Turns out usually things suddenly become possible.
- sneak 5y ago
  It is even weirder if you carry cash and leave your payment cards at home. This is a fun one, too.
- Tempest1981 5y ago
  The HN crowd knows this, but 97% of users don't, and just follow the "rules". They lack the tech-paranoia that us tech workers have, as we happily/fearfully build these systems to maximize monetization.
  - gnabgib 5y ago
    60% of the time, do 97% of the users accept arbitrary stats every time?
  - cute_boi 5y ago
    As always many people love convenience over privacy and this is why major wolves are able to prey them for data. The way to solve is through proper rules and regulations but ....
sneak 5y ago
I don't install apps to be a customer. Most apps are spyware that collect tons of data on you, despite Apple's marketing claims. I think I am the only customer at my gym that uses a physical fob. Push back. Say "no, sorry, I can't install apps". Or use a dumbphone for a month per year. They do this because they can get away with it. Make them bring you a printed menu.
- _jal 5y ago
  Exactly right. If you need an app on my phone to take my money for normal, everyday transactions, you don't need my money. Side tangent - I used to be incorporated as a consultant, and think I need to be again because of crap like this, so it can own things for me. I haven't had a car in a long time, and think I need to lease one from MeCo instead of buying one.
rPlayer6554 5y ago
> But let’s clear up something right away: Trader Joe’s says it has nothing to do with this. > “This isn’t a TJ’s thing,” said Tara Miller, a Trader Joe’s spokesperson. “It’s being implemented by the landlord I feel like the headline is misleading and shouldn't mention Trader Joe's if it isn't Trader Joe's direct fault.
- extropy 5y ago
  Still TJ decided it's fine to continue running their store with this crap being set up Or they might have been in the dark until people started complaining. Anyhow this totally involves TJ and they will need to do something about it, as more customers will get pissed.
  - bink 5y ago
    Trader Joe's no doubt has a multi-year lease at this location that they can't just break. But beyond that I seriously doubt the Trader Joe's legal team inspects the terms of service for the parking apps of all parking garages attached to buildings where they lease space. We'd also have no way of knowing if they objected to these terms in private even if they had. They probably will have their legal team take a look at the agreement for this location now that it's made the news, but can we cut them a little slack before fetching the pitch forks?
    - tannedNerd 5y ago
      They also could have easily pushed back and told the landlord if they do this they won’t be renewing their lease. I’m sure losing an anchor tenant like that is enough to encourage the landlord to change their mind.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  Nope. If you want to apply pressure you do so at the weakest link. This isn’t news. It’s an attempt to stop this using the news.
- tomrod 5y ago
unicornporn 5y ago
Oh, great timing. Just ended a conversation with some friends who had bought a dishwasher. The display for these new machines had been removed, so the only way to tell when the machine was really finished was to... Guess what? Download an app! I suppose I don't need to tell you all the permissions it asked for...
- Waterluvian 5y ago
  Someone can make an absolute killing by creating an entire brand of “dumb” appliances that Just Work. Make them sensible quality, modern, entirely offline.
  - LegitShady 5y ago
    they'll make a lot less of 'an absolute killing' than the devices and apps that spy on you through your phone and generate a constant revenue stream after the initial purpose. That's why dumb devices are getting harder and harder to find. It's much easier to take advantage of users and steal their data with 'smart' devices.
    - Waterluvian 5y ago
      It’s a curve. What you’re saying is a true to a certain point. After that point the smart devices have created a sufficient market for dumb devices.
      - LegitShady 5y ago
        it depends on how much those dumb devices cost. many people are price sensitive and unaware of the privacy concerns, and the less business you have the more expensive each unit is to make, etc. Dumb TVs are the same thing. Hard to find, and surprisingly expensive for the feature set when you do find them. I don't currently own a TV but if there was a decent dumb TV that was decently affordable and wasn't garbage I might buy one to watch movies on. Also on the front page https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218381 Vizio makes more money spying on people who buy TVs than TVs themselves
the_snooze 5y ago
I hate tech like this. It ostensibly offers some minor convenience for the end-user, but it's really just a big data grab for whatever company implemented it. A few years ago, I went to a local Shake Shack and found they replaced their cashiers with kiosks. But placing an order requires me to give them my phone number, supposedly so they can text me when my order was ready. This should have been a very simple transaction: I give them money, and they give me burger. That's it. No need to get tech BS involved in things.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  I always put a fake number into the Shake Shack kiosk. It hasn't been a problem, since the people sacking the burgers shout out my equally fake name to pick up my order. If Shake Shack is really texting me that my order us ready, it's going to a prison pay phone a dozen states away.
  - bnjemian 5y ago
    Poison the data!
  - dpifke 5y ago
    I have yet to encounter a loyalty card program where local area code + Jenny's number (867-5309) wasn't registered.
    - TheBill 5y ago
      Also usually gets you plenty of Safeway Rewards @ Chevron.
    - bell-cot 5y ago
      This +10 (if I could). Putting in something clever (and thus probably rare, and maybe unique to you) can make it far easier for Borg-tronic Analysis, Inc. to connect all the little data dots about you. A bit of data that is common to a large number of people makes a far better poison for their dystopian wishing well.
    - 5y ago
alexfromapex 5y ago
The new war of attrition for the sake of exploitation is everywhere now it seems like. A simple legal framework where citizens could easily vote against these types of behavior, without having to jump through a bunch of legal hoops, would be really nice.
yumraj 5y ago
DMV, and other gov services, in CA, as well as it seems other states, is now fully integrated with ID.me, which to me does not inspire trust. They even run a shop, https://shop.id.me/ https://shop.id.me/, with store discounts and so on. So, to give all the info to such an entity is risky as hell. So, recently when I had to do something with DMV I just decided to go a little early and use the kiosks they have inside rather than use the online version which mandated that I link my DMV account and share all my personal info, the serious kind that DMV needs and not just name/email, with ID.me Not sure how long this will be an option, but let's see.
- inetknght 5y ago
  > is now fully integrated with ID.me Getting a license or vehicle registration information is sold in certain states. [0]: https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/02/20/texas-dmv-selling-drivers-personal-information/ https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/02/20/texas-dmv-selling-driver...
  - akira2501 5y ago
    In California there's just a simple form and a fee to retrieve information from the DMV. If anyone does this to lookup your information, you will be notified by the state. I highly recommend getting a PO Box or a PMB and using that as your primary address on your drivers license, for this exact reason. In this case, you are required to also give the address you physically live at, but this information is not eligible to be shared through the above process.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      If you own property, does that really protect you? Land records are public, and you can just use a website like http://searchpeoplefree.com/ http://searchpeoplefree.com/
      - novok 5y ago
        You own the property via a pass through single owner LLC to retain the $250k cap gains exemption. Still is a massive annoyance and complication to do so although, and mortgages are harder.
FpUser 5y ago
Why would ANY person agree to install app to park in their garage is beyond me. BTW my phone does not even have mobile data plan.
progbits 5y ago
> You are using a browser set to private or incognito mode. > [ Offer to buy subscription ] > [ Login button ] The hypocrisy is strong with this one. Here you go, bullshit-free link: https://archive.md/BG1PM https://archive.md/BG1PM
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Use reader mode.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mixmastamyk 5y ago
Mind blown, I stopped going to the Hollywood TJs the moment the sign went up that it was coming. We go to silverlake now even though the selection is not as good. Glad to see someone else cares. Now I feel like I could call them and tell them why without being ignored.
b8 5y ago
I had to download a app to park on campus at college, giving them the cars license plate etc. and they ended up getting hacked(License plate etc. DB was dumped).[1] I dislike places forcing people to download apps just to be able to park. 1.https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/04/parkmobile-breach-exposes-license-plate-data-mobile-numbers-of-21m-users/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/04/parkmobile-breach-expose...
kuang_eleven 5y ago
I would expect better writing from the LA Times than this yellow journalism filled with clickbait... There is a kernel of a news story here, but blaming it on Trader Joe's in the headline, only to retract it half-way through the story? The section with big scary words about how terrible it is to log an IP address?
ppetty 5y ago
JBG Properties did this in Reston Town Center, Reston Virginia. I avoid parking in any of their garages unless during a free window, and while a few restaurants provide reimbursement the number of businesses that have left and not been replaced is sad. At some point, maybe the rent or parking costs will drop. But the failure to consider the privacy discomfort is what keeps me away. I work about a quarter mile away and avoid the Apple store or CVS for stores miles away but which cost less for parking.
lvs 5y ago
TJ's is big enough they should sue these people.
alekratz 5y ago
So what happens when you don't have a smartphone?
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  You're locked out by the digital divide, haves and have nots.
dorkwood 5y ago
Who are companies like this selling the data to, and who is validating that the data is real? Would it be possible to generate a fake data set and sell that?
imgabe 5y ago
> “This isn’t a TJ’s thing,” said Tara Miller, a Trader Joe’s spokesperson. “It’s being implemented by the landlord. We are a tenant in the building and are bound by the same parking validation system as other tenants.” So why does the headline imply the exact opposite? Because it gets clicks of course, but this is why people hate and distrust the media any more. Stop lying.
- newaccount74 5y ago
  The headline clearly says "if you park at this Trader Joes". It's pretty clear that this is about an issue with the parking garage at a specific Trader Joes. Whether the retailer or their landlord came up with the stupid scheme doesn't really make a difference to the customer.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    Of course it makes a difference. If you want to protest the parking scheme and you complain to Trader Joe’s you won’t get anywhere, because they have nothing to do with it. They’re only mentioned because they’re a popular store and will draw clicks. It’s a sleazy and dishonest tactic. Trader Joe’s isn’t responsible for the scheme, nor is it limited to that particular Trader Joe’s. It’s a service that’s used at many different garages. Why highlight that one specifically?
    - newaccount74 5y ago
      > they have nothing to do with it Of course they do. They have a contract with the landlord. They rent the space and pay for parking. If you are a customer of a retailer, why would you go complain to their landlord? > Why highlight that one specifically? Why not? Journalists can either cover something in breadth, or in depth, and in this case the journalist decided to go in depth on a specific location.
    - lostdog 5y ago
      > If you want to protest the parking scheme and you complain to Trader Joe’s you won’t get anywhere TJ does care that it's customers want to come to the store, and they do have some power during lease negotiations. Making it bad PR for Trader Joes really is a good way to exerting pressure to get the landlord's rule changed. For this specific parking garage, the TJ is the most major tenant, so they would have the most leverage over getting the rules changed.
aeharding 5y ago
It’s a Trader Joe’s. Why do you need to drive to it in the first place?
- rzz3 5y ago
  Because you don’t want to carry a bunch of groceries for 30 blocks in your hands…?
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    Even with a large backpack, it's more efficient to drive because 4-5 bags is about the limit of carrying without a vehicle. And when you don't have time to fo 2x/week, either drive or Instacart.
mcculley 5y ago
This kind of market is why I am amused when people are concerned about the government spying on them. The government does not need spies. It just buys the data on the open market.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  Absolutely correct. It's still spying, though. It's just spying that's been outsourced and made available to everyone that can cut a check.
jandrese 5y ago
One of my local shopping complexes had their landlord add tolls to the previously free parking. It was all done via an incredibly shitty app that required you to set up an account and link a credit card to pay. It was slow, hard to use, and crashed a couple of times on me while I was trying to set up the account forcing me to start from scratch. They also had kiosks, but they were not working. I used to go to that shopping complex a couple of times a month, but now it has been almost 4 years and I have not been back. All of the stores and restaurants I used to frequent have since closed up and moved out anyway, so there isn't much draw. I'm not even sure what is in there now, if anything. I uninstalled the parking app.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Golden example or greedy landlords killing their golden goose.
  - _nalply 5y ago
    Not really, it's more the bad execution that killed the goose. Only misers would object to a small fee for parking. It's the hassle of paying that keeps people away. Where I live all shopping centers in the town have the same fees for parking, CHF 1 for the first hour then CHF ½ for every half hour. You can pay with an app, for example https://easypark.ch https://easypark.ch, or by cash at a central parking meter by the entrance which accepts credit cards, too, and even returns change. It's not really a joy but acceptable.
    - throwaway55421 5y ago
      In a lot (most?) of the US most places are far enough away from each other that using a shop's car park as somewhere to leave your car (e.g. while commuting) does not happen. There is also no viable public transport. Charging for parking, then, is nonsensical. It's a cost imposed on your business just like the rent. You could try to recover your rent/land costs by charging a flat fee for people to enter your shop on foot. Why not? Well, because no-one will come any more.
bluehex 5y ago
> Indeed, almost all of Metropolis’ information gathering was justified by the spokesperson as being necessary for improving the company’s service. Is it just me or is this poor writing? I thought something had to be true in order to be justified. They "attempted to justify" or "rationalized" but they didn't "justify". I know this is nit-picky of me but this is a newspaper with professional writers and editors. Maybe my understanding of the word usage is too narrow.
- franciscop 5y ago
  "Justified by the spokesperson" = those are the reasons the spokesperson gave/think are true. Dictionary tells me a definition of "justify" is "be a good reason for".
jonas21 5y ago
The author says that the app's "more than 4,000-word privacy policy is a minefield of digital pitfalls". I hate to break it to them, but the LA Times has a more than 7,000-word privacy policy with the exact same pitfalls. - Collecting IP address: check - Collecting geo-location and device identifiers: check - Cross-device tracking: check - Tracking referring and exit URLs: check - Third-party cookies for ad targeting: check In addition, the Times' privacy policy allows it to collect a whole bunch of other information about you - for example they can collect your "race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status, religious affiliation, military or veteran status, nationality, ancestry or ethnicity, and political opinions" or buy it from data brokers and use that to serve you ads or sell it to whomever they please. Now I'm not suggesting that the Times shouldn't point out privacy flaws in other companies' products. But perhaps a sentence or two disclosing that they have the same flaws would be in order.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  The LA Times is not a car park.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  What does LA Times have to do with parking app? Why this misdirection?
  - jonas21 5y ago
    This is an article in the LA Times by a columnist who works for the LA Times.
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      100% agree but let's discuss it in its own context though. Here were are talking about the Parking App.
  - 5y ago
ratherbefuddled 5y ago
Whenever someone pulls this sort of thing I simply tell them I don't have a phone.
dheera 5y ago
Just say you don't own a mobile phone and that you're willing to pay parking with cash or credit card. The ball is now in their court to figure out what to do.
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  I wonder if they'll say "Sorry, we don't accept cash." like some airport curbside baggage services.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  They are still scanning your license plate. I won’t be back.
fellellor 5y ago
Can’t you just uninstall the app after 1 use. How would they continue to track you later?
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Uninstalling after they’ve collected your data is hardly a solution.
neonate 5y ago
https://archive.md/BG1PM https://archive.md/BG1PM
dlsa 5y ago
Business should be fully aware that they are judged on the entire experience. So, TJ's are fully responsible for the parking arrangement experience even though, as they say, they are just tenants and its their landlords who are imposing this. Those facts don't make up for the bad experience. Its still TJ's fault and at that location they have bad parking. Its now up to them to fix their bad parking situation. If they can. Others have pointed out the landlord could put in a turnstile and charge $1 per entry. Indirect methods, eg tracking apps, are the equivalent. Refer to the parking situation.

196 points by arkadiyt 5y ago

> need[ing] to monitor people’s unrelated web browsing and links they click Does this require some kind of vulnerability exploit? I would hope that apps can't extract this kind of information from other unrelated apps.

simcop2387 5y ago
I suspect it does fingerprinting to tie it to another advertising id to extract it all evetnually

diebeforei485 5y ago

It's common in China and some parts of Europe that they just use a license plate reader camera to log the time you entered, and another one at exit In China you just scan a QR code from a screen to pay and leave, but I think that could be replaced with a credit card reader or contactless payment. I don't see why it requires downloading an app.

mixmastamyk 5y ago
It’s not required, it’s for the benefit of a data collection business.

teucris 5y ago

Saw this while in Trader Joe’s. Not the specific one mentioned however.

rudian 5y ago

Many of these things are basically standard practice nowadays thanks to cross-site tracking and this is just one of the many companies that checks all the (modern shitty-company) boxes. It's good that they are exposed and people discuss them in order to (hopefully) reach the politicians, but none of this is surprising at all.

pengaru 5y ago

> The parking-lot attendant, he said, “let me off with a warning that I wouldn’t be so lucky next time.” So... for some old timer who pulls up without a smartphone they'll turn them away? Sounds like an empty threat to me. Edit: Should have read more before commenting, later in the article: > customers “also have the option of entering their license plate number into one of four kiosks as a means of validating their parking.” So it's just a difference of convenience, much ado about nothing.

gruez 5y ago
>So... for some old timer who pulls up without a smartphone they'll turn them away? yeah? AFAIK if you want to shop at an amazon go store, you need mobile app and a registered amazon account. We're also getting there at other places because some establishments/jurisdictions are requiring proof of vaccination (ie. signed QR code).
- FpUser 5y ago
  I shop at amazon using web browser. I would never install any of their apps.
- klyrs 5y ago
  You can print the QR code at your local library. The onus is still there, but it's on the business. On the other hand, I've been 'checked' in a few places but nobody has a QR scanner, they just look at my name on the card and my ID
- jackson1442 5y ago
  Amazon Go allows you to insert a debit/credit card linked with amazon account to enter as well.
- pengaru 5y ago
  I fully expect more cities to prohibit retail establishments from refusing cash within their jurisdictions. There's precedent for it already, on grounds of discriminating against the poor.

GavinMcG 5y ago

I'm glad to see this framing. Reading the provisions identified in the article, you could easily react by saying "well, that's normal." Of course a parking app would ask for your vehicle's make/model and for your credit card information. But it is a cost, and the unrestrained use of that information is a further cost. And that's before you get into "need[ing] to monitor people’s unrelated web browsing and links they click" ostensibly in order to "understand how customers are coming to Metropolis" (emphasis added).

secabeen 5y ago
Is there even an app at all here? If you look at their screenshots, it's all just a website. When you "sign up", they don't send you to the Google or Apple app stores, just to their app.metropolis.io site. When you look at the privacy policy, everything I see there is in line with a somewhat lawyerly description of what every web server receives. IP Address, Carrier (in the rDNS or WHOIS of the IP), HTTP referrers, HTTP User-Agent details, etc. Cross-device tracking is a side effect of logging into their website from multiple devices. Geo-location could be a bit intrusive, but again pretty useful to auto-identify the parking structure that you're in, and browsers allow you to deny the request for that data. They also collect "cellphone number, email address, license plate number and credit card information, as well as the make, model and year of your vehicle.", but that's needed to provide the service. The framing here is pretty alarmist, and all of it is based on a read of the privacy policy. A deeper dive would MITM the traffic and actually see if they were collecting data beyond the basics. Without that, the article just ends up on picking on one specific vendor/industry, without helping the reader understand how this vendor compares to other vendors and other apps.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  It sounds like you’re not aware of the news in the last decade or so. Very little chance there is no data monetization going on. Would not be profitable without it.
  - bicklet 5y ago

encryptluks2 5y ago

The worst offender I've seen is Xfinity/Comcast. Recently cancelled service, never got a notice and multiple incorrect bills after canceling. Anytime I would talk you customer service, they would always say... "If you want to see your correct bill, then you have to download the app." I continually would have to tell them that I'm not downloading their damn app and that they are big enough that they can have the correct information on their website. Joe Biden and the Democrats decided to give large ISPs an additional 65 billion dollars with the Infrastructure Plan shortly after this incident.

lostcolony 5y ago
And Trump and the Republicans decided to give large ISPs a massive corporate tax break just the prior term, as well as remove a lot of pro consumer regulation re: the FCC, in that case. What's the point of the political commentary?
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  If I recall, the billion dollar subsidies that were stolen and never used to expand broadband were given out on the Democrats' watch previously, and again this time. So, the whataboutism is not really necessary here. However, if you want to go that route—there is nothing stopping Democrats from declaring Internet a public utility and targeting the ISP monopolies, but that isn't part of their agenda.
not-elite 5y ago
You will be happy to learn that under Chair Khan, the FTC is going to prioritize enforcement actions against this specific practice. Only 1 Commissioner issued a dissenting statement. [1] Comcast has probably already discontinued the practice, as it's been 2 weeks since the policy statement was issued. [1] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-ramp-enforcement-against-illegal-dark-patterns-trick-or-trap https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-r...
- encryptluks2 5y ago

gleenn 5y ago

FTA nothing to do with Trader Joes, but where that particular THs happens to have its parking lot. Only at location, and you're allowed to emter a license plate number instead of logging in. Seems pretty click-baity to me.

dreen 5y ago

Just say you don't have a smartphone. I got rid of mine and was worried I will have issues at places that do this sort of stuff. Turns out usually things suddenly become possible.

sneak 5y ago
It is even weirder if you carry cash and leave your payment cards at home. This is a fun one, too.
Tempest1981 5y ago
The HN crowd knows this, but 97% of users don't, and just follow the "rules". They lack the tech-paranoia that us tech workers have, as we happily/fearfully build these systems to maximize monetization.
- gnabgib 5y ago
  60% of the time, do 97% of the users accept arbitrary stats every time?
- cute_boi 5y ago
  As always many people love convenience over privacy and this is why major wolves are able to prey them for data. The way to solve is through proper rules and regulations but ....

sneak 5y ago

I don't install apps to be a customer. Most apps are spyware that collect tons of data on you, despite Apple's marketing claims. I think I am the only customer at my gym that uses a physical fob. Push back. Say "no, sorry, I can't install apps". Or use a dumbphone for a month per year. They do this because they can get away with it. Make them bring you a printed menu.

_jal 5y ago
Exactly right. If you need an app on my phone to take my money for normal, everyday transactions, you don't need my money. Side tangent - I used to be incorporated as a consultant, and think I need to be again because of crap like this, so it can own things for me. I haven't had a car in a long time, and think I need to lease one from MeCo instead of buying one.

rPlayer6554 5y ago

> But let’s clear up something right away: Trader Joe’s says it has nothing to do with this. > “This isn’t a TJ’s thing,” said Tara Miller, a Trader Joe’s spokesperson. “It’s being implemented by the landlord I feel like the headline is misleading and shouldn't mention Trader Joe's if it isn't Trader Joe's direct fault.

extropy 5y ago
Still TJ decided it's fine to continue running their store with this crap being set up Or they might have been in the dark until people started complaining. Anyhow this totally involves TJ and they will need to do something about it, as more customers will get pissed.
- bink 5y ago
  Trader Joe's no doubt has a multi-year lease at this location that they can't just break. But beyond that I seriously doubt the Trader Joe's legal team inspects the terms of service for the parking apps of all parking garages attached to buildings where they lease space. We'd also have no way of knowing if they objected to these terms in private even if they had. They probably will have their legal team take a look at the agreement for this location now that it's made the news, but can we cut them a little slack before fetching the pitch forks?
  - tannedNerd 5y ago
    They also could have easily pushed back and told the landlord if they do this they won’t be renewing their lease. I’m sure losing an anchor tenant like that is enough to encourage the landlord to change their mind.
renewiltord 5y ago
Nope. If you want to apply pressure you do so at the weakest link. This isn’t news. It’s an attempt to stop this using the news.
tomrod 5y ago

unicornporn 5y ago

Oh, great timing. Just ended a conversation with some friends who had bought a dishwasher. The display for these new machines had been removed, so the only way to tell when the machine was really finished was to... Guess what? Download an app! I suppose I don't need to tell you all the permissions it asked for...

Waterluvian 5y ago
Someone can make an absolute killing by creating an entire brand of “dumb” appliances that Just Work. Make them sensible quality, modern, entirely offline.
- LegitShady 5y ago
  they'll make a lot less of 'an absolute killing' than the devices and apps that spy on you through your phone and generate a constant revenue stream after the initial purpose. That's why dumb devices are getting harder and harder to find. It's much easier to take advantage of users and steal their data with 'smart' devices.
  - Waterluvian 5y ago
    It’s a curve. What you’re saying is a true to a certain point. After that point the smart devices have created a sufficient market for dumb devices.
    - LegitShady 5y ago
      it depends on how much those dumb devices cost. many people are price sensitive and unaware of the privacy concerns, and the less business you have the more expensive each unit is to make, etc. Dumb TVs are the same thing. Hard to find, and surprisingly expensive for the feature set when you do find them. I don't currently own a TV but if there was a decent dumb TV that was decently affordable and wasn't garbage I might buy one to watch movies on. Also on the front page https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29218381 Vizio makes more money spying on people who buy TVs than TVs themselves

the_snooze 5y ago

I hate tech like this. It ostensibly offers some minor convenience for the end-user, but it's really just a big data grab for whatever company implemented it. A few years ago, I went to a local Shake Shack and found they replaced their cashiers with kiosks. But placing an order requires me to give them my phone number, supposedly so they can text me when my order was ready. This should have been a very simple transaction: I give them money, and they give me burger. That's it. No need to get tech BS involved in things.

reaperducer 5y ago
I always put a fake number into the Shake Shack kiosk. It hasn't been a problem, since the people sacking the burgers shout out my equally fake name to pick up my order. If Shake Shack is really texting me that my order us ready, it's going to a prison pay phone a dozen states away.
- bnjemian 5y ago
  Poison the data!
- dpifke 5y ago
  I have yet to encounter a loyalty card program where local area code + Jenny's number (867-5309) wasn't registered.
  - TheBill 5y ago
    Also usually gets you plenty of Safeway Rewards @ Chevron.
  - bell-cot 5y ago
    This +10 (if I could). Putting in something clever (and thus probably rare, and maybe unique to you) can make it far easier for Borg-tronic Analysis, Inc. to connect all the little data dots about you. A bit of data that is common to a large number of people makes a far better poison for their dystopian wishing well.
  - 5y ago

alexfromapex 5y ago

The new war of attrition for the sake of exploitation is everywhere now it seems like. A simple legal framework where citizens could easily vote against these types of behavior, without having to jump through a bunch of legal hoops, would be really nice.

yumraj 5y ago

DMV, and other gov services, in CA, as well as it seems other states, is now fully integrated with ID.me, which to me does not inspire trust. They even run a shop, https://shop.id.me/ https://shop.id.me/, with store discounts and so on. So, to give all the info to such an entity is risky as hell. So, recently when I had to do something with DMV I just decided to go a little early and use the kiosks they have inside rather than use the online version which mandated that I link my DMV account and share all my personal info, the serious kind that DMV needs and not just name/email, with ID.me Not sure how long this will be an option, but let's see.

inetknght 5y ago
> is now fully integrated with ID.me Getting a license or vehicle registration information is sold in certain states. [0]: https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/02/20/texas-dmv-selling-drivers-personal-information/ https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/02/20/texas-dmv-selling-driver...
- akira2501 5y ago
  In California there's just a simple form and a fee to retrieve information from the DMV. If anyone does this to lookup your information, you will be notified by the state. I highly recommend getting a PO Box or a PMB and using that as your primary address on your drivers license, for this exact reason. In this case, you are required to also give the address you physically live at, but this information is not eligible to be shared through the above process.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    If you own property, does that really protect you? Land records are public, and you can just use a website like http://searchpeoplefree.com/ http://searchpeoplefree.com/
    - novok 5y ago
      You own the property via a pass through single owner LLC to retain the $250k cap gains exemption. Still is a massive annoyance and complication to do so although, and mortgages are harder.

FpUser 5y ago

Why would ANY person agree to install app to park in their garage is beyond me. BTW my phone does not even have mobile data plan.

progbits 5y ago

> You are using a browser set to private or incognito mode. > [ Offer to buy subscription ] > [ Login button ] The hypocrisy is strong with this one. Here you go, bullshit-free link: https://archive.md/BG1PM https://archive.md/BG1PM

throwawayboise 5y ago
Use reader mode.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

mixmastamyk 5y ago

Mind blown, I stopped going to the Hollywood TJs the moment the sign went up that it was coming. We go to silverlake now even though the selection is not as good. Glad to see someone else cares. Now I feel like I could call them and tell them why without being ignored.

b8 5y ago

I had to download a app to park on campus at college, giving them the cars license plate etc. and they ended up getting hacked(License plate etc. DB was dumped).[1] I dislike places forcing people to download apps just to be able to park. 1.https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/04/parkmobile-breach-exposes-license-plate-data-mobile-numbers-of-21m-users/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/04/parkmobile-breach-expose...

kuang_eleven 5y ago

I would expect better writing from the LA Times than this yellow journalism filled with clickbait... There is a kernel of a news story here, but blaming it on Trader Joe's in the headline, only to retract it half-way through the story? The section with big scary words about how terrible it is to log an IP address?

ppetty 5y ago

JBG Properties did this in Reston Town Center, Reston Virginia. I avoid parking in any of their garages unless during a free window, and while a few restaurants provide reimbursement the number of businesses that have left and not been replaced is sad. At some point, maybe the rent or parking costs will drop. But the failure to consider the privacy discomfort is what keeps me away. I work about a quarter mile away and avoid the Apple store or CVS for stores miles away but which cost less for parking.

lvs 5y ago

TJ's is big enough they should sue these people.

alekratz 5y ago

So what happens when you don't have a smartphone?

errcorrectcode 5y ago
You're locked out by the digital divide, haves and have nots.

dorkwood 5y ago

Who are companies like this selling the data to, and who is validating that the data is real? Would it be possible to generate a fake data set and sell that?

imgabe 5y ago

> “This isn’t a TJ’s thing,” said Tara Miller, a Trader Joe’s spokesperson. “It’s being implemented by the landlord. We are a tenant in the building and are bound by the same parking validation system as other tenants.” So why does the headline imply the exact opposite? Because it gets clicks of course, but this is why people hate and distrust the media any more. Stop lying.

newaccount74 5y ago
The headline clearly says "if you park at this Trader Joes". It's pretty clear that this is about an issue with the parking garage at a specific Trader Joes. Whether the retailer or their landlord came up with the stupid scheme doesn't really make a difference to the customer.
- imgabe 5y ago
  Of course it makes a difference. If you want to protest the parking scheme and you complain to Trader Joe’s you won’t get anywhere, because they have nothing to do with it. They’re only mentioned because they’re a popular store and will draw clicks. It’s a sleazy and dishonest tactic. Trader Joe’s isn’t responsible for the scheme, nor is it limited to that particular Trader Joe’s. It’s a service that’s used at many different garages. Why highlight that one specifically?
  - newaccount74 5y ago
    > they have nothing to do with it Of course they do. They have a contract with the landlord. They rent the space and pay for parking. If you are a customer of a retailer, why would you go complain to their landlord? > Why highlight that one specifically? Why not? Journalists can either cover something in breadth, or in depth, and in this case the journalist decided to go in depth on a specific location.
  - lostdog 5y ago
    > If you want to protest the parking scheme and you complain to Trader Joe’s you won’t get anywhere TJ does care that it's customers want to come to the store, and they do have some power during lease negotiations. Making it bad PR for Trader Joes really is a good way to exerting pressure to get the landlord's rule changed. For this specific parking garage, the TJ is the most major tenant, so they would have the most leverage over getting the rules changed.

aeharding 5y ago

It’s a Trader Joe’s. Why do you need to drive to it in the first place?

rzz3 5y ago
Because you don’t want to carry a bunch of groceries for 30 blocks in your hands…?
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  Even with a large backpack, it's more efficient to drive because 4-5 bags is about the limit of carrying without a vehicle. And when you don't have time to fo 2x/week, either drive or Instacart.

mcculley 5y ago

This kind of market is why I am amused when people are concerned about the government spying on them. The government does not need spies. It just buys the data on the open market.

JohnFen 5y ago
Absolutely correct. It's still spying, though. It's just spying that's been outsourced and made available to everyone that can cut a check.

jandrese 5y ago

One of my local shopping complexes had their landlord add tolls to the previously free parking. It was all done via an incredibly shitty app that required you to set up an account and link a credit card to pay. It was slow, hard to use, and crashed a couple of times on me while I was trying to set up the account forcing me to start from scratch. They also had kiosks, but they were not working. I used to go to that shopping complex a couple of times a month, but now it has been almost 4 years and I have not been back. All of the stores and restaurants I used to frequent have since closed up and moved out anyway, so there isn't much draw. I'm not even sure what is in there now, if anything. I uninstalled the parking app.

vineyardmike 5y ago
Golden example or greedy landlords killing their golden goose.
- _nalply 5y ago
  Not really, it's more the bad execution that killed the goose. Only misers would object to a small fee for parking. It's the hassle of paying that keeps people away. Where I live all shopping centers in the town have the same fees for parking, CHF 1 for the first hour then CHF ½ for every half hour. You can pay with an app, for example https://easypark.ch https://easypark.ch, or by cash at a central parking meter by the entrance which accepts credit cards, too, and even returns change. It's not really a joy but acceptable.
  - throwaway55421 5y ago
    In a lot (most?) of the US most places are far enough away from each other that using a shop's car park as somewhere to leave your car (e.g. while commuting) does not happen. There is also no viable public transport. Charging for parking, then, is nonsensical. It's a cost imposed on your business just like the rent. You could try to recover your rent/land costs by charging a flat fee for people to enter your shop on foot. Why not? Well, because no-one will come any more.

bluehex 5y ago

> Indeed, almost all of Metropolis’ information gathering was justified by the spokesperson as being necessary for improving the company’s service. Is it just me or is this poor writing? I thought something had to be true in order to be justified. They "attempted to justify" or "rationalized" but they didn't "justify". I know this is nit-picky of me but this is a newspaper with professional writers and editors. Maybe my understanding of the word usage is too narrow.

franciscop 5y ago
"Justified by the spokesperson" = those are the reasons the spokesperson gave/think are true. Dictionary tells me a definition of "justify" is "be a good reason for".

jonas21 5y ago

The author says that the app's "more than 4,000-word privacy policy is a minefield of digital pitfalls". I hate to break it to them, but the LA Times has a more than 7,000-word privacy policy with the exact same pitfalls. - Collecting IP address: check - Collecting geo-location and device identifiers: check - Cross-device tracking: check - Tracking referring and exit URLs: check - Third-party cookies for ad targeting: check In addition, the Times' privacy policy allows it to collect a whole bunch of other information about you - for example they can collect your "race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status, religious affiliation, military or veteran status, nationality, ancestry or ethnicity, and political opinions" or buy it from data brokers and use that to serve you ads or sell it to whomever they please. Now I'm not suggesting that the Times shouldn't point out privacy flaws in other companies' products. But perhaps a sentence or two disclosing that they have the same flaws would be in order.

IshKebab 5y ago
The LA Times is not a car park.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
systemvoltage 5y ago
What does LA Times have to do with parking app? Why this misdirection?
- jonas21 5y ago
  This is an article in the LA Times by a columnist who works for the LA Times.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    100% agree but let's discuss it in its own context though. Here were are talking about the Parking App.
- 5y ago

ratherbefuddled 5y ago

Whenever someone pulls this sort of thing I simply tell them I don't have a phone.

dheera 5y ago

Just say you don't own a mobile phone and that you're willing to pay parking with cash or credit card. The ball is now in their court to figure out what to do.

errcorrectcode 5y ago
I wonder if they'll say "Sorry, we don't accept cash." like some airport curbside baggage services.
mixmastamyk 5y ago
They are still scanning your license plate. I won’t be back.

fellellor 5y ago

Can’t you just uninstall the app after 1 use. How would they continue to track you later?

mixmastamyk 5y ago
Uninstalling after they’ve collected your data is hardly a solution.

neonate 5y ago

https://archive.md/BG1PM https://archive.md/BG1PM

dlsa 5y ago

Business should be fully aware that they are judged on the entire experience. So, TJ's are fully responsible for the parking arrangement experience even though, as they say, they are just tenants and its their landlords who are imposing this. Those facts don't make up for the bad experience. Its still TJ's fault and at that location they have bad parking. Its now up to them to fix their bad parking situation. If they can. Others have pointed out the landlord could put in a turnstile and charge $1 per entry. Indirect methods, eg tracking apps, are the equivalent. Refer to the parking situation.